Teachers being trained to kill kids

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:26 pm UTC

How much better? Is the increase worth the expense? Are there plans for follow ups? 5 years? 1 year? Quarterly?

We all likely know many examples of “I did this in High School” folks who, 20 years later, have lost the muscle memory (and physical ability) to do certain things. Hell. There’s examples of former high school cheerleaders five years later unable to do the stunts they could do because they’re out of practice. Something they practiced weekly (or more often) for four to eight years, now unable to do it.

Sure, they could pick it up again quickly. Quickly being a few months, not years.

Same with any skill, really. I’ve replaced toilets and sinks in my house. While that gives me experience and confidence to repair larger plumbing issues - I am in no way a plumber, and calling myself anything approaching that is laughable. That’s for plumbing on my property - not a life-or-death situation.

Basically - what’s the point in the training? It’s expensive, the need for it is astoundingly rare, and by the time the “training” you get from three whole days would be needed, you’ve long since forgotten.

How is this helping anyone other than the wallets of the organizations that provide the training?
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby sardia » Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:29 pm UTC

Is that something you can even test? Besides the lame correlational data like (did less people die to guns?)

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby cphite » Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:16 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:How much better? Is the increase worth the expense? Are there plans for follow ups? 5 years? 1 year? Quarterly?


Depends on the person, and frankly I'm not even sure how you'd definitively measure "how much" better someone gets, aside from that they get through the drills faster and with less mistakes.

The real benefit of these courses - and the drills, specifically - is that they give you experience. The idea is that, if some real situation does arise, you've done it before. You're not going into it completely blind. Most people, when faced with a highly stressful and dangerous situation, tend to either freeze up and do nothing, or panic and just sort of lash out... the idea is that by having the experience and having at least tried to cope with some (admittedly light on realism) simulation, you're more likely to be able to act, and also be able to act in a manner that is more controlled.

We all likely know many examples of “I did this in High School” folks who, 20 years later, have lost the muscle memory (and physical ability) to do certain things. Hell. There’s examples of former high school cheerleaders five years later unable to do the stunts they could do because they’re out of practice. Something they practiced weekly (or more often) for four to eight years, now unable to do it.

Sure, they could pick it up again quickly. Quickly being a few months, not years.



I've known ex-cops and ex-military folks who talk about times when, years or even decades after they've been active, found themselves in a situation and their training just sort of kicked in automatically. And, I know people who train this stuff regularly and still find it difficult. The idea is to get better at it. That said, based on my own experience and folks I train with, I think for the most part people can keep this stuff far longer than people keep skill related to cheerleading, sports, and so forth.

The reason being, when you're doing cheerleader stunts (for example) that's a physical skill that requires both mental and physical precision. You not only have to know the movements, you have to have the strength, flexibility, stamina, and balance to actually do them. Those are the things you lose with lack of use.

In the case of target acquisition drills... I definitely agree that it'd be better for people to keep training; and there probably is a drop-off when they don't keep training. But in my personal opinion, the drop-off isn't nearly as fast or as significant as with physical skills.

Same with any skill, really. I’ve replaced toilets and sinks in my house. While that gives me experience and confidence to repair larger plumbing issues - I am in no way a plumber, and calling myself anything approaching that is laughable. That’s for plumbing on my property - not a life-or-death situation.


Sure. But I'd bet you're better equipped to handle a plumbing problem than someone who's never done it before; or even someone who's only ever read about it or watched it on YouTube. You actually did it, and so now you know what's involved. And I'd be willing to bet that if something really sudden and unexpected did happen, you'd be better at handling it than if you'd never had that experience.

Basically - what’s the point in the training? It’s expensive, the need for it is astoundingly rare, and by the time the “training” you get from three whole days would be needed, you’ve long since forgotten.


The point is to get the experience. It's to simulate a stressful situation where you need to make a split-second decision, so that if someday you're actually in that kind of situation, you've done it before. It's knowing how to draw your weapon, load it, check it, and how to handle it when you're under stress. It's knowing how to stand, how to calm down and breathe, how to sight, and so forth under stress.

Granted, there is no drill or any other such simulation that can *really* replicate a live-fire scenario. No matter how hard they try, the instructors cannot really convince you that a cardboard target is going to kill you or someone else if you mess up. You aren't afraid of dying, or of killing someone; at worst you're going to look bad or get yelled at. But it's better than nothing.

How is this helping anyone other than the wallets of the organizations that provide the training?


In my own experience, quite a lot. I don't know about this specific course because I don't know these folks or what they're doing outside of reading the article; but I've found these courses to be immensely valuable. I've trained with a lot of LOEs and military who find them valuable.

I've been teaching self-defense of a couple of decades now - mostly unarmed, sticks, or blades - and one thing I can say for certain is that hands-on drilling in (as) realistic (as possible) scenarios is absolutely critical for anyone who wants to be able to actually use what they're learning. The same thing applies to guns... there are things that only experience can teach. These courses give you a chance to get experience without anyone actually getting shot. It's not perfect experience - but it's definitely better than no experience.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby jewish_scientist » Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:07 pm UTC

cphite wrote:You can point out when they've made the wrong choice and let them try again, but at the end of the day there really isn't any way to "correct" the fact that humans sometimes make bad choices under high stress.

Yes you can. SWAT, military, and (ideally) police can function in a stressful environment without losing control, because they have had hundreds of hours of training. That actually brings up something I was wondering since reading the article; why not just have a police officer stay in the school throughout the day? Any objection that applies to this also applies to arming teachers, but not vice versa.
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby sardia » Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:09 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:
cphite wrote:You can point out when they've made the wrong choice and let them try again, but at the end of the day there really isn't any way to "correct" the fact that humans sometimes make bad choices under high stress.

Yes you can. SWAT, military, and (ideally) police can function in a stressful environment without losing control, because they have had hundreds of hours of training. That actually brings up something I was wondering since reading the article; why not just have a police officer stay in the school throughout the day? Any objection that applies to this also applies to arming teachers, but not vice versa.

Because cops spend most of their time beating and arresting up black people.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby cphite » Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:01 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:
cphite wrote:You can point out when they've made the wrong choice and let them try again, but at the end of the day there really isn't any way to "correct" the fact that humans sometimes make bad choices under high stress.

Yes you can. SWAT, military, and (ideally) police can function in a stressful environment without losing control, because they have had hundreds of hours of training.


You get better and better the more you train; but mistakes and bad choices still occur.

The reason SWAT trains as much as they do is the realization that it's a never ending process; you keep improving. There isn't any point where you're done because you're perfect.

That actually brings up something I was wondering since reading the article; why not just have a police officer stay in the school throughout the day? Any objection that applies to this also applies to arming teachers, but not vice versa.


Basically, someone with training and experience is better than someone with neither. The more training and experience, the better. Cops typically have far more of both than the average teacher; so they're usually a good choice. Doesn't even have to be an active officer... off-duty looking for more hours, or even retired can be good too.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:52 pm UTC

cphite wrote:Basically, someone with training and experience is better than someone with neither.
Unless you're training them poorly -- in which case, it can be better to have never been trained at all.

Which seems to be the case with pretty much every police officer in the United States.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Chen » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:59 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Unless you're training them poorly -- in which case, it can be better to have never been trained at all.

Which seems to be the case with pretty much every police officer in the United States.


While Im sure most people here will agree police training is lacking, I’d like to see some evidence that its worse than if officers weren’t trained at all.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby sardia » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:54 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:Unless you're training them poorly -- in which case, it can be better to have never been trained at all.

Which seems to be the case with pretty much every police officer in the United States.


While Im sure most people here will agree police training is lacking, I’d like to see some evidence that its worse than if officers weren’t trained at all.

When a black man reaches into his car, I don't shoot them on sight. Cops do. Hmm, that's anecdotal, lemme Google a study...

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby cphite » Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:23 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Chen wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:Unless you're training them poorly -- in which case, it can be better to have never been trained at all.

Which seems to be the case with pretty much every police officer in the United States.


While Im sure most people here will agree police training is lacking, I’d like to see some evidence that its worse than if officers weren’t trained at all.

When a black man reaches into his car, I don't shoot them on sight. Cops do. Hmm, that's anecdotal, lemme Google a study...


I've never committed medical malpractice, but doctors do... clearly it would be better if we got rid of all that education and training to be a doctor.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Chen » Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:51 pm UTC

sardia wrote:When a black man reaches into his car, I don't shoot them on sight. Cops do. Hmm, that's anecdotal, lemme Google a study...


Its pretty dubious that its the police training that drives police to do that rather than the authority that comes with the position. If you took away all the police training but still gave then guns and the authority to use force things would be FAR worse than if you trained them.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Zohar » Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:52 pm UTC

cphite wrote:
sardia wrote:When a black man reaches into his car, I don't shoot them on sight. Cops do. Hmm, that's anecdotal, lemme Google a study...


I've never committed medical malpractice, but doctors do... clearly it would be better if we got rid of all that education and training to be a doctor.

When black people consider it a death threat to call the police, it's clear the police as a system are failing at their job. And not training them or providing them with guns (or, at least, taking guns away from most of them) would almost certainly increase safety for most people.
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:53 pm UTC

Chen wrote:Its pretty dubious that its the police training that drives police to do that rather than the authority that comes with the position. If you took away all the police training but still gave then guns and the authority to use force things would be FAR worse than if you trained them.
Police are trained to escalate, rather than de-escalate; they're trained to treat every road-side stop like it could be a fatal encounter with a gunman (yet they're much more likely to be hit by another car than shot). They're trained to behave as if their lives are always at risk, and to respond to any challenge of their authority by exercising that authority.

There's also the simple fact that when you're trained to commit violence -- trained to use your gun against human targets -- you're more likely to *use* that training. Especially when that training doesn't come with exploring alternatives to violence.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby elasto » Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:10 am UTC

Yeah. The answer to poor training isn't no training it's better training.

To be fair, it's more tricky for the issue of whether/how to train teachers, since deescalation is almost certainly not an option there. More investment in mental health might stop things getting to that stage though.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby AlgaeSea » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:30 pm UTC

I found this old livejournal (yeah I said it was old) blog post. It was posted right after Sandyhook about the problems with arming teachers.

https://thefourthvine.livejournal.com/169841.html

This paragraph especially got to me (emphasis mine):
And these people can't just be trained a little. They have to be good enough to make a targeted shot when they're terrified (and remember: a lot of them, like me, will be prone to shutting down or freezing in an emergency; that is a human thing that happens), in a classroom where any miss means they may become the child-murderer. They have to be good enough to know when to fire. They have to be good enough to know when not to fire. Even police officers aren't always that good (links to many, many cases available as necessary), and police officers go into their careers expecting to learn to fire guns.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby jewish_scientist » Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:16 am UTC

I doubt anyone will argue that the 3 day course teachers get is better in quality or quantity than the training police officers have.
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby ijuin » Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:36 pm UTC

No, but proponents of arming teachers would argue that the three day course is better than simply giving the teachers the weapons with no training at all.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby bbluewi » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:49 pm UTC

ijuin wrote:No, but proponents of arming teachers would argue that the three day course is better than simply giving the teachers the weapons with no training at all.

And of course, opponents of arming teachers would argue that giving them the weapons at all is pointless, because it puts more people into a line of fire without any benefit that isn't achieved by, say, having a police officer there, who is better trained and equipped for the situation than any teacher would be.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Angua » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:57 pm UTC

bbluewi wrote:
ijuin wrote:No, but proponents of arming teachers would argue that the three day course is better than simply giving the teachers the weapons with no training at all.

And of course, opponents of arming teachers would argue that giving them the weapons at all is pointless, because it puts more people into a line of fire without any benefit that isn't achieved by, say, having a police officer there, who is better trained and equipped for the situation than any teacher would be.

Plus the added risk of doing more harm by having extra guns in the situation and accidentally shooting bystanders.
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby jewish_scientist » Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:44 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:I doubt anyone will argue that the 3 day course teachers get is better in quality or quantity than the training police officers have.

ijuin wrote:No, but proponents of arming teachers would argue that the three day course is better than simply giving the teachers the weapons with no training at all.

The point I am making is that all justifications given for arming teachers also applies to placing a police officer in the school, but same is not true for objections.
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby speising » Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:47 pm UTC

that's not really true. if you arm teachers you have an armed person, ready to shoot kids, in every classroom. a single police officer is much less likely to be in the right place should the need arise. (and if i were a student on a killing spree, i'd make sure to start with them)
also, a police officer is an additional cost factor; the teachers are already there.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby sardia » Tue Dec 25, 2018 7:05 pm UTC

speising wrote:that's not really true. if you arm teachers you have an armed person, ready to shoot kids, in every classroom. a single police officer is much less likely to be in the right place should the need arise. (and if i were a student on a killing spree, i'd make sure to start with them)
also, a police officer is an additional cost factor; the teachers are already there.

How about we put remote controlled collars on every kid. Then when they get uppity, you fire the collar.
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby bbluewi » Tue Dec 25, 2018 7:53 pm UTC

speising wrote:if you arm teachers you have an armed person, ready to shoot kids, in every classroom.


If this sentence isn't literally insane to you, I'm stepping out of the discussion, because that's nowhere in the same universe as reasonable. We're sending our kids to schools, not prisons.

a single police officer is much less likely to be in the right place should the need arise. (and if i were a student on a killing spree, i'd make sure to start with them)


I wouldn't. The cop would be an actually challenging target. If I'm trying to go out in a blaze of glory or going on a homicidal rampage, I would want as high of a body count as possible, and the person most likely to actually succeed in killing me would be the worst place to start.

also, a police officer is an additional cost factor; the teachers are already there.

Sure, the teachers are already there, but you're providing every one of them a weapon, regularly training them, likely performing at least some of the maintenance, and hiring someone willing to explain to confused parents why the fuck there's a gun in every single classroom of your school.

You're also forgetting the cost of a miss. If they had a gun, every K12 teacher I've ever known (and growing up as the kid of one, that's a lot of them) wouldn't reach for it--they care too much about kids to risk missing (that's why they're in such a thankless profession, for fuck's sake). If they're not frozen, they're tackling the kid with the gun, because that's more worth it to them than trying to live with a miss, because they wouldn't be able to do it.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby speising » Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:27 pm UTC

i'm in no way arguing for armed teachers. if i had kids i wouldn't let them go to a school in which were roaming armed persons, uniformed or not.

i was merely pointing out that there are in fact justifications to arm teachers instead of hiring armed personnel, whether the idea is a good one overall or not.

i don't think the costs of a miss are factoring in the decisions of the ones promoting armed teachers.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby jewish_scientist » Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:30 am UTC

speising wrote:that's not really true. if you arm teachers you have an armed person, ready to shoot kids, in every classroom. a single police officer is much less likely to be in the right place should the need arise.

The policy suggested is to arm only one teacher and then hide their identity, not arming every teacher.
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby cphite » Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:28 pm UTC

speising wrote:that's not really true. if you arm teachers you have an armed person, ready to shoot kids, in every classroom.


Right now, there are armed teachers in some states - but they're not all armed. I don't believe anyone is calling for making it mandatory that teachers arm themselves.

My personal opinion is that teachers should be allowed to carry, but only if they've received adequate training. The three day course described in the original post is adequate; though more would certainly be better. I'd prefer there be yearly reviews required as well.

a single police officer is much less likely to be in the right place should the need arise.


There are pros and cons to an officer. On the plus side, you have far more training and experience than a teacher is likely to have; and the officer can presumably stay more focused on keeping an eye on things because he isn't busy teaching or doing other tasks. On the minus side, as you point out an officer cannot be everywhere at once, and will potentially be a target at the onset.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Dauric » Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:47 pm UTC

Another facet of having a police officer in the schools is the temptation for school administration to turn incidents in to legal issues by involving the resident officer. Shootings at any particular school only happen on the rarest of occasions, and if you've got a police officer sitting there effectively doing nothing he might as well be put to work 'bringing 'da law' to those unruly students...
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby idonno » Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:15 pm UTC

cphite wrote:The three day course described in the original post is adequate;

What do you base this claim on? How long is it adequate for before they need a refresher? I would argue that no course can be considered adequate without at the very least testing it efficacy to see how long teachers tend to retain whatever benefit it may have provided and you cannot trust testing by an entity that is directly profiting from the course.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby cphite » Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:24 pm UTC

idonno wrote:
cphite wrote:The three day course described in the original post is adequate;


What do you base this claim on?


Personal experience. It's my opinion that the three day course is adequate.

How long is it adequate for before they need a refresher?


I believe an annual review would be sufficient.

I would argue that no course can be considered adequate without at the very least testing it efficacy to see how long teachers tend to retain whatever benefit it may have provided and you cannot trust testing by an entity that is directly profiting from the course.


In my opinion, the course as described in the article sounds fairly typical and would be adequate, based on my own experience. I wouldn't actually endorse that specific course without personally reviewing it; but in a general sense it sounds adequate.

I also agree that courses should be independently reviewed.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby idonno » Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:06 pm UTC

cphite wrote:I also agree that courses should be independently reviewed.

Would you consider a course that had not been independently reviewed with independent testing of people who had passed the course to be adequate. Because as near as I can tell, this is not the case.

In my opinion based on personal experience, a three day course may be sufficient for someone that already has proper gun safety training but there is no way a three day course is going to instill proper gun safety. Proper safety is more than head knowledge and takes repetition and time to instill in a person.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby jewish_scientist » Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:00 am UTC

cphite wrote:In my opinion, the course as described in the article sounds fairly typical and would be adequate, based on my own experience. I wouldn't actually endorse that specific course without personally reviewing it; but in a general sense it sounds adequate.

I think that your personal experience is not applicable to this situation. A three day course needed to receive a gun permit for these reasons is acceptable, because all that is necessary is learning how to safely use and care for guns in general. However, this course is specifically designed to train people to deal with an active shooter. Since the goals are so different, the training necessary for each purpose is not comparable.
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby cphite » Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:58 pm UTC

idonno wrote:
cphite wrote:I also agree that courses should be independently reviewed.

Would you consider a course that had not been independently reviewed with independent testing of people who had passed the course to be adequate. Because as near as I can tell, this is not the case.


The course sounds like it covers all of the things that such a course generally covers, and ought to cover. In that way, it sounds adequate in my opinion.

In my opinion based on personal experience, a three day course may be sufficient for someone that already has proper gun safety training but there is no way a three day course is going to instill proper gun safety. Proper safety is more than head knowledge and takes repetition and time to instill in a person.


A reasonably competent person can be taught the basics pretty easily. Always assume the weapon is loaded unless you've cleared it yourself. Always treat the weapon as loaded in regards to other people, even after you've cleared it yourself. Never point the weapon at anyone unless you intend to shoot. Keep your finger off the trigger unless your going to shoot. Etc.

In the case of a teacher, they ought to never, ever draw, reveal, or otherwise handle the weapon unless there is a reason to do so. Leave it in the holster; there is absolutely no reason to take it out unless you need to fire it.

jewish_scientist wrote:I think that your personal experience is not applicable to this situation.


Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Based on my own experience, I consider the course as described to be adequate to the intended purpose. Adequate doesn't necessarily mean great; and it definitely doesn't mean perfect. I'd rather see teachers - if they're going to carry at all - be required to receive more than this single course. But all in all, if they're going to carry, this is a huge improvement over no training at all.

A three day course needed to receive a gun permit for these reasons is acceptable, because all that is necessary is learning how to safely use and care for guns in general.
However, this course is specifically designed to train people to deal with an active shooter. Since the goals are so different, the training necessary for each purpose is not comparable.


The article doesn't specify one way or the other, but generally speaking if you can't already operate your weapon, and cannot handle it safely, you'll be walked off of an active shooter course. The folks who teach these courses - if they're even remotely competent - aren't going to risk it. Hell, even the ones who are just in it for the money don't want to deal with someone who might end up shooting them by accident.

That being said, we agree - people ought to be taught the basics before they're ever allowed to carry a gun anywhere. People should be taught how to safely handle the weapon, as well as how to load it, clear it, clean it, and maintain it, before they're ever allowed to actually handle one.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Thesh » Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:12 pm UTC

The question isn't "If they carry, is this course good enough to make sure guns don't accidentally go off?"
The question is "In the situations that they are likely to encounter, what is necessary to ensure that armed teachers do more good than harm?"

I just don't see why your experience is relevant, or how you could possibly have enough information to even make that call. If we can't trust police to handle firearms safely, I don't see how we can trust teachers or some random concealed carry holder to do the same. The last thing you want is someone with a hero mentality who has more bullets than information on the suspect.
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby jewish_scientist » Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:32 pm UTC

cphite"[quote="jewish_scientist wrote:I think that your personal experience is not applicable to this situation.


Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.[/quote]
Yes it is. Thanks for making me feel like a jerk for engaging with the conversation.

That being said, we agree - people ought to be taught the basics before they're ever allowed to carry a gun anywhere. People should be taught how to safely handle the weapon, as well as how to load it, clear it, clean it, and maintain it, before they're ever allowed to actually handle one.

Knowledge on how do properly do those things is necessary and sufficient to merit a gun permit. However, that same knowledge is necessary, but not sufficient, to merit permission for a teacher to carry a gun during school hours.
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby cphite » Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:02 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:I think that your personal experience is not applicable to this situation.


Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Yes it is. Thanks for making me feel like a jerk for engaging with the conversation.


Apologies - that wasn't my intent.

All of this is opinion; yours and mine, and everyone else. I wish that I had numbers or something - people who take these courses are X% less likely to fuck things up for example - but I really haven't seen numbers that I'd consider reliable enough to depend on for anything.

Experience tells me that people who train are generally better than they were before they trained; and if people are going to carry deadly weapons, they ought to do whatever they can at being better at carrying and using those weapons effectively.

That being said, we agree - people ought to be taught the basics before they're ever allowed to carry a gun anywhere. People should be taught how to safely handle the weapon, as well as how to load it, clear it, clean it, and maintain it, before they're ever allowed to actually handle one.


Knowledge on how do properly do those things is necessary and sufficient to merit a gun permit. However, that same knowledge is necessary, but not sufficient, to merit permission for a teacher to carry a gun during school hours.


Agreed. Which is why I like the course described in the article - it's giving them hands-on experience dealing with a live-fire incident.

As I've said before, if it were up to me, people wouldn't carry firearms at all without being properly educated on how to handle them safely; and as for teachers, I'd personally prefer that they receive more than this three day course, and that they be required to do annual reviews, to be allowed to carry while working.

It's not up to me.

So given the scenario where they're going to carry weapons anyway, this course as presented by the article is at least a decent start - and far preferable to no training at all.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby jewish_scientist » Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:52 pm UTC

cphite wrote:So given the scenario where they're going to carry weapons anyway, this course as presented by the article is at least a decent start - and far preferable to no training at all.

That is a very strange way to approach this issue. You assume that teachers are going to be carrying guns and then say that this training is better than no training at all. Many people think that teachers should not be armed regardless of how much training they have, and you are just ignoring their objections with your starting axiom.
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:34 am UTC

We ended corporal punishment, as that was nothing more than a combination of cruelty and laziness on the educators' part to deal with unruly children. But rather than actually putting in effort, we just decided it was easier to give the crotch-goblins ritalin and adderall. Now that amphetamines are no longer in vogue, it's up to Smith&Wessen. /snark

You know, the very fact that this is somehow a serious debate makes me wonder if we made a mistake in ending several thousand years of tradition of slapping unruly kids upside the head.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Zohar » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:15 pm UTC

Corporal punishment isn't a thing in Canada or the UK either and they don't have these mass shootings.
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:21 pm UTC

The teachers being trained to kill kids arent trying to protect the students, they just want to live out a fantasy of shooting unruly little brats. Pretty much exactly the sort of person who should never be allowed to bring a gun into the classroom. I'm saying that our efforts to fix the problem of lazy, incompetent teachers who have trouble with little brats has gotten worse over the years.
Last edited by CorruptUser on Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:24 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby cphite » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:24 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:
cphite wrote:So given the scenario where they're going to carry weapons anyway, this course as presented by the article is at least a decent start - and far preferable to no training at all.

That is a very strange way to approach this issue. You assume that teachers are going to be carrying guns and then say that this training is better than no training at all. Many people think that teachers should not be armed regardless of how much training they have, and you are just ignoring their objections with your starting axiom.


I am not assuming anything - it is already legal in some states for teachers to carry guns in schools; teachers are, in fact, already carrying guns in schools.

Given that reality, I believe that this training is better than no training at all. I would prefer they receive more training; but if the choices are between this training and no training, I am going with this training.


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