The Darker Side of the News

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Coyne
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Coyne » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:33 pm UTC

Ran into a new term today:

hostile termination v. The act of firing an employee that might commit a mass shooting.

From a corporate website.
In all fairness...

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby EdgarJPublius » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:56 am UTC

That term's been around for a while, though this is the first time I've heard it used in this context.

The more familiar usage is firing an employee who may commit some kind of retributive act (e.g. vandalism, theft of company real or intellectual property, sabotage, etc.) esp. if given forewarning of their termination.

Common in tech/computer industries where there's all kinds of opportunities for covert sabotage and intellectual property theft. Sysadmins in any serious company are almost always terminated hostile-ly.

I've heard stories of IIRC IBM or some similarly large tech company from a while back that would fire employees from sensitive departments by turning off their door access badge. They'd find out they didn't have a job anymore when they showed up in the morning and couldn't get in the door. Security would bring them any personal belongings from their desk, but they wouldn't be allowed back into the building for any reason.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:14 am UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:Common in tech/computer industries where there's all kinds of opportunities for covert sabotage and intellectual property theft. Sysadmins in any serious company are almost always terminated hostile-ly.

I've heard stories of IIRC IBM or some similarly large tech company from a while back that would fire employees from sensitive departments by turning off their door access badge. They'd find out they didn't have a job anymore when they showed up in the morning and couldn't get in the door. Security would bring them any personal belongings from their desk, but they wouldn't be allowed back into the building for any reason.
Man; with policies like that, it's so hard to imagine why employees would ever want to sabotage the company!

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Grop » Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:48 am UTC

I thought this only happened in China.

I wonder how their coworkers feel about that.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Mutex » Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:10 am UTC

My brother works in IT, at one company he was taken aside one day and informed he'd been made redundant, and had to leave immediately. I can't remember his exact position, think he worked in operations or something, clearly something with enough potential to do serious damage if he'd wanted to.


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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:37 am UTC

I actually wrote one of my companies' policies on what to do in a dismissal, not too long before leaving myself (with some foreknowledge and, crucially, with no malice in mind). For someone like me with multiple systems' administrator rights, server room access and the physical key to the secure onsite hardcopy/tape store it was heavy on locking out of unnecessary access (though not quite so far as building-wise).

The process then happened with me faster than I anticipated (partly because I had accumulated vacation, perhaps, that 'needed taking'… a recurring theme in other jobs I've had) but I could easily have engineered some form of logic bomb with some disruptive effect (beyond anything either my continued presence or mere absence could have achieved), had I had the intent to do so. Or, come to that, when I went back to the office a month or two later to pick up a personal parcel inadvertently still sent to that work/daytime address I could easily have distracted the security guard I was friendly with (who was the first person on the site outside my immediate line-management aware that I was actually leaving, when I did) and made use of his mostly-secure desk computer. I didn't, naturally.

Balance is difficult. Sufficiently robust safeguards are going to seem draconian outwith the worst-case-scenario that they anticipate. And when its comes to the extremes of a "unilaterally corporation-led employment status recategorisation procedure" it can be very thorough. Especially these days with things like wifi APs, corporate clouds and copious technical outsourcing, etc.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:28 pm UTC

https://www.npr.org/templates/transcrip ... =706482037
Trump is a huge magnet for news attention, for media attention, he's a really useful figure to give all these diverse movements something to coalesce around.
Extremist ideologies have three major components. One is identity. So that's the group you're in and the group you hate. One is a crisis narrative. So that's an argument that things are happening in the world, usually threatening but not always, that require decisive action to protect your identity. What we call the in-group is the group that you belong to. So the crisis narrative then leads to a solution narrative. And the solution for extremists is hostile action against what we call the out-group, which is the enemy identity.

And so the president and many of his allies in both, you know, mainstream politics and mainstream, semimainstream media are able to provide a just constant stream of crisis narratives. So this is just red meat that's out there for extremists to pick up. If everybody is talking about a crisis, then the question turns to, what kind of solution do you propose to the crisis? And that's where the extremists come in. So they come in with a solution that is deport everyone or create concentration camps or kill everyone.


Tldr Trump is unifying disparate white identity groups such as Nazis, KKK, incels etc etc and then making up a series of crises to fuel extremist behavior. Conservatives have played with extremist talk in the past, but only Trump has sided with them this heavily.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby elasto » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:45 pm UTC

In one IT department I used to work in we were shifting from one in-house IT system to another due to a merger. My best friend at the time was totally against the transition and decided to hand in his notice.

The department let him serve out his time but arguably they shouldn't have. He spent the entire time simmering and, on his last day, sent a short email company-wide saying goodbye and hinting at his grievances.

Management had a quiet but firm word with him to make sure things were ok, and everyone seemed to be mollified.

A couple of hours later he sent a massive multi-page stream-of-consciousness to all staff and customers outlining in detail all his fears and listing all the scenarios whereby our logistics could grind to a halt or collapse...

He is on the spectrum and I'm sure he did it from a good place, genuinely wanting everyone to take care so his doom-mongering would not come to pass, but, well, management posted security on him until he could empty his desk and leave the building...

(He left the industry and entered academia, and I think he's never been happier.)

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby gd1 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:55 pm UTC

sardia wrote:https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=706482037
Trump is a huge magnet for news attention, for media attention, he's a really useful figure to give all these diverse movements something to coalesce around.
Extremist ideologies have three major components. One is identity. So that's the group you're in and the group you hate. One is a crisis narrative. So that's an argument that things are happening in the world, usually threatening but not always, that require decisive action to protect your identity. What we call the in-group is the group that you belong to. So the crisis narrative then leads to a solution narrative. And the solution for extremists is hostile action against what we call the out-group, which is the enemy identity.

And so the president and many of his allies in both, you know, mainstream politics and mainstream, semimainstream media are able to provide a just constant stream of crisis narratives. So this is just red meat that's out there for extremists to pick up. If everybody is talking about a crisis, then the question turns to, what kind of solution do you propose to the crisis? And that's where the extremists come in. So they come in with a solution that is deport everyone or create concentration camps or kill everyone.


Tldr Trump is unifying disparate white identity groups such as Nazis, KKK, incels etc etc and then making up a series of crises to fuel extremist behavior. Conservatives have played with extremist talk in the past, but only Trump has sided with them this heavily.


YouTube quote (from the comment section of this video: A White House Whistleblower Outs Trump’s Careless Clearances | The Daily Show):
kinn grimm I mostly agree with that but I want my president to protect this country and the American people first and foremost. For me subjective qualities like “goodness” are secondary to this.


A possible translation for this is:
Protect this country... from people I don't like and ideas I don't like.

Abortion
Immigrants
Etc.

The quote is in response to a video about how Trump demonstrably lied about his overriding security clearance denials. As long as he does what they want, it doesn't matter. Same with judges like kavanaugh and so forth.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby elasto » Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:52 pm UTC

gd1 wrote:The quote is in response to a video about how Trump demonstrably lied about his overriding security clearance denials. As long as he does what they want, it doesn't matter. Same with judges like kavanaugh and so forth.

The thing is, character is only useful in so much as it's a predictor of future behaviour: 'Will this person do what they say they'll do?'

But a better predictor of future behaviour is current behaviour. And if the person is doing what you want them to do then, well, what's the big deal? A politician's job is to lead, right? It's not to be a moral role model.

This is a big difference between modern-day left and right I reckon, especially on social media: The right is much more ruthless and calculating, whereas the left is much more willing to devour their own in the search for purity and virtue signalling; The right is all about 'the ends justify the means', whereas the left is 'the ends mean nothing if the means are tainted'.

In general, the left need to be much more forgiving and the right need to be much less, but I'm not sure how any of that would come about...

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ucim » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:34 pm UTC

elasto wrote:The thing is, character is only useful in so much as it's a predictor of future behaviour: 'Will this person do what they say they'll do?'
No, that's too narrow a view. Character is a predictor of behavior in the sense of "what will this person do if they haven't said what they will do?" And yes, current and past behavior is a predictor - that is what character is made of.

Character is more about why a person does what they do, than about the actual thing that they do. You don't shouldn't want a politician who will just do what you want, because you don't know enough to know what you want. You're not privy to all the ingredients of the sausage. But you do have character - that is, you have a set of reasons behind the kinds of things you want. The ideal representative politician shares those reasons with you, and will do what you would have done in their shoes. They have the same kind of character that you have.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Zohar » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:47 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:My brother works in IT, at one company he was taken aside one day and informed he'd been made redundant, and had to leave immediately. I can't remember his exact position, think he worked in operations or something, clearly something with enough potential to do serious damage if he'd wanted to.

A colleague at the IT department quit and her manager called IT (for seriously no reason) to supervise and escort her off-campus. No warning or anything, no time for anyone to say goodbye.

On the other hand in Israel a developer was fired and a few days later sent a colleague of his an e-mail saying "Hey can you just run the file I attached? Thanks!".

They never did.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:50 pm UTC

Guys, the white supremacists threat is related but not the same thing as the classical GOP agenda of tax cuts and pro business military industrial complex. That's why Nazis hated Bush, McCain, and Romney. Those candidates were willing to dog whistle for their votes, but would immediately repudiate Nazis when pressed. Trump does not, and he's willing to fight for them. Remember how he refused to hate the KKK Duke guy? Or the awful Charlottesville both sides crap? That's red meat to people who have been denied their whole lives by politicians.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Mutex » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:01 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:On the other hand in Israel a developer was fired and a few days later sent a colleague of his an e-mail saying "Hey can you just run the file I attached? Thanks!".

They never did.

Probably wise. I've heard about people leaving a company, and months later on a whim seeing if they could still sign into their accounts, email, SSH into servers, and still could. People with a lot of permissions! So it can be pretty extreme in both directions.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby cphite » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:10 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:My brother works in IT, at one company he was taken aside one day and informed he'd been made redundant, and had to leave immediately. I can't remember his exact position, think he worked in operations or something, clearly something with enough potential to do serious damage if he'd wanted to.


First real IT job I ever had, they let the sysadmin go from one of the remote offices. The business was changing and they were trying to consolidate the infrastructure; they offered to let him stay if he wanted to move to the main office, but he said he wasn't interested in moving. They gave him two months notice, and he seemed to take it well enough. Said he understood. He was a pretty easygoing guy, well liked, always did his job well.

Day before he left, he disabled all of our backups, disabled a bunch of nightly batch jobs, and messed with the network switches so that everything was slow as hell, a whole host of other small stuff... fortunately he didn't appear to actually remove or change any data - which he could have done and caused far more damage - but we spent months finding and fixing the shit that he did.

After that, the policy was that anyone with admin privileges who left - whether they were terminated or left on their own - had all access revoked immediately, and was walked out of the building.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby elasto » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:15 pm UTC

ucim wrote:Character is more about why a person does what they do, than about the actual thing that they do. You don't shouldn't want a politician who will just do what you want, because you don't know enough to know what you want.

Well I agree, but that isn't the wind blowing these days. Rather, as Gove famously said wrt Brexit: 'people have had enough of experts'.

That means people don't want politicians with nuance and hidden depths, they want shallow politicians who 'tell it like it is' and just shut up and do your side's bidding... The strongman populist politician can be as nakedly self-serving as he likes so long as he keeps delivering...

(That's the wind blowing on the right, anyhow; The left has to decide whether they can beat them or have to join them with that one...)

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ucim » Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:10 pm UTC

If the citizens have no character, the politicians won't either.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby idonno » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:10 am UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:I've heard stories of IIRC IBM or some similarly large tech company from a while back that would fire employees from sensitive departments by turning off their door access badge. They'd find out they didn't have a job anymore when they showed up in the morning and couldn't get in the door. Security would bring them any personal belongings from their desk, but they wouldn't be allowed back into the building for any reason.

That is why you set up something malicious to occur if you haven't checked in for a few weeks.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:24 am UTC

idonno wrote:That is why you set up something malicious to occur if you haven't checked in for a few weeks.


And wouldn't it be ironic if that was done, but then when you lost your job you were not so inclined any more…
Zohar wrote:On the other hand in Israel a developer was fired and a few days later sent a colleague of his an e-mail saying "Hey can you just run the file I attached? Thanks!".

They never did.


(Also maybe lodge a message to be acted upon by next-of-kin, in a timely manner, under a broad range of circumstances out of your control - unless maybe you had actually been worked to death, in which case the NoK should just dispose of it and enjoy the consequences from afar.)

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby eran_rathan » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:25 pm UTC

Notre Dame is burning.


It is sad a structure that survived that long is being lost because of renovation work on it.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Angua » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:32 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:Notre Dame is burning.


It is sad a structure that survived that long is being lost because of renovation work on it.
It is really sad.

Also, Donald Trump is such an idiot.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Plasma_Wolf » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:58 pm UTC

Even in this he just can't keep his fucking mouth shut. I lost all hope for the world when Trump's actual words to North Korea (in 2016 when they were in a full-on shout war) were more idiotic than the text South Park made up. Everything he has done afterwards is just confirmation of that.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:26 pm UTC

Angua wrote:Also, Donald Trump is such an idiot.

Definitely. Obviously he forgot that they should have raked the cathedral floor.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Angua » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:34 pm UTC

I feel sad that the French officials felt the need to respond that dumping water on the Cathedral would be a bad idea.

[quote]France's civil security agency says "all means" except for water-dropping aircraft were deployed to tackle the blaze.

The defense agency said those were unsuitable for fires like the one at Notre Dame because dumping water on the building could cause the whole structure to collapse.[/quote]
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ijuin » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:33 am UTC

Yes, how could the architects be so shortsighted as to not design the building to withstand a firefighting method that would not be invented for six hundred years!

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby PAstrychef » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:59 am UTC

Water tankers aren’t that precise. Likely they would have just flooded the neighborhood.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Thesh » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:01 am UTC

Couldn't we just fill laser-guided bombs with water?
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:11 am UTC

PAstrychef wrote:Water tankers aren’t that precise. Likely they would have just flooded the neighborhood.

The neighbourhood in question being an island in the Seine. Not sure if that makes it better or worse.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Grop » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:25 am UTC

Angua wrote:I feel sad that the French officials felt the need to respond that dumping water on the Cathedral would be a bad idea.


To be fair, Donald Trump might not have been the only person they were replying to.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:34 pm UTC

Grop wrote:To be fair, Donald Trump might not have been the only person they were replying to.

They posted in, presumably, their second language of English, not French. Mind you, English also seems to be Donald's second language sometimes. And then there are those who might disproportionately copy his sentiments whose native text would normally be rendered in Cyrillic.

(And I make no excuse for either assertion.)

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Sableagle » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:03 pm UTC

In Soviet electioneering, covfefe hashtag you.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:37 pm UTC

ijuin wrote:Yes, how could the architects be so shortsighted as to not design the building to withstand a firefighting method that would not be invented for six hundred years!
Pfft..! The French!
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Angua » Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:47 am UTC

Crabtree's bludgeon: “no set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated”
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby gd1 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:08 am UTC

I wonder if Trump will make camps for Muslims like they did for the Japanese in the US during wartime so I can get an internship?
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:57 am UTC

gd1 wrote:I wonder if Trump will make camps for Muslims like they did for the Japanese in the US during wartime so I can get an internship?
Nah...
That's not his style.

Deportation without concern for the safety and well being of the deportees.
That seems to be his Steve Miller like style.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ObsessoMom » Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:38 am UTC


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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby gd1 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:08 pm UTC

NJT, a Muslim extremist group claimed responsibility.

The Quran has this to say about it:
14:28
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:27 pm UTC

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... gS&ampcf=1
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Zohar » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:41 pm UTC

Unsurprisingly, this is a horrible shitshow and exactly what Republicans wanted - to disenfranchise votes and remove support from liberal states.
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