Trump presidency

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gd1
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gd1 » Sun May 12, 2019 5:46 am UTC

Are you claiming that my noodle crack isn't healthy?

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addams
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Tue May 14, 2019 12:06 am UTC

uh-umm....
It's all so...weird.

I've been avoiding News.
Because it seems like the same old shit day in and day out.

But; well...This got my attention.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XolimveZdrQ

It's Col. Ralph Peters ranting on Anderson Cooper's part of the 24 hour News Cycle.
What got my attention? The Albanian Folk Singers for Trump. It's an act I'd watch.

Ralph Peters (born April 19, 1952) is a retired United States Army lieutenant colonel and author. Peters appeared frequently as an analyst on Fox News until March 2018 when he resigned, calling the network a "propaganda machine" for the Trump administration and accused the network of "wittingly harming our system of government for profit."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Peters

Anderson Hays Cooper is an American journalist, television personality, and author. He is the primary anchor of the CNN news show Anderson Cooper 360°. The program is usually broadcast live from a New York City studio; however, Cooper often broadcasts live from CNN's studios in Washington, D.C., or on location for breaking news stories. In addition, he is a correspondent for 60 Minutes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anderson_Cooper

Hummm...?
Be Afraid.
Be Very Afraid.


What happened to the Germans can happen to us.
(jeeze....) It could be worse. A modern 1984.

Here is some more of the same kind of ranting.
Different Channel: Different Ranter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ2ixDAKYwA

(my...my...) Take a few days off from the News and it all seems a bit frightening.
It seems a person's tolerance drops quickly.
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ObsessoMom
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Wed May 22, 2019 5:52 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:Well, that's one way of reducing the number of impoverished people:

New York Times: Trump Administration Seeks to Redefine Formula for Calculating Poverty


Well, that's one way to reduce the number of people dying from air pollution:

New York Times: E.P.A. Plans to Get Thousands of Pollution Deaths Off the Books by Changing Its Math

Snippet:

Spoiler:
The Environmental Protection Agency plans to change the way it calculates the health risks of air pollution, a shift that would make it easier to roll back a key climate change rule because it would result in far fewer predicted deaths from pollution, according to five people with knowledge of the agency’s plans.

The E.P.A. had originally forecast that eliminating the Obama-era rule, the Clean Power Plan, and replacing it with a new measure would have resulted in an additional 1,400 premature deaths per year. The new analytical model would significantly reduce that number and would most likely be used by the Trump administration to defend further rollbacks of air pollution rules if it is formally adopted.

The proposed shift is the latest example of the Trump administration downgrading the estimates of environmental harm from pollution in regulations. In this case, the proposed methodology would assume there is little or no health benefit to making the air any cleaner than what the law requires. Many experts said that approach was not scientifically sound and that, in the real world, there are no safe levels of the fine particulate pollution associated with the burning of fossil fuels.

Fine particulate matter — the tiny, deadly particles that can penetrate deep into the lungs and enter the bloodstream — is linked to heart attacks, strokes and respiratory disease.


Better Living Through Accountancy

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Fri May 24, 2019 1:23 am UTC

And; Today our creepy Cheeto Chief goes on 'strike' because he does;t like Congressional Oversight.
"I'm not doing anything with you people if you keep looking into what I do." ...sigh...
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zmic
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby zmic » Fri May 24, 2019 8:09 am UTC

addams wrote:And; Today our creepy Cheeto Chief goes on 'strike' because he does;t like Congressional Oversight.


Yeah well you can't call somebody a criminal and then 5 minutes later sit down with him to discuss road infrastructure plans as if nothing's the matter. It's one thing or the other. The Democrats are free to create some FUD cover-up narrative in the media, but then at least they should be consistent with it. This dichotomy is really the rot at the heart of the Democrats "strategy", if you can call this a strategy.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby iamspen » Fri May 24, 2019 9:23 am UTC

zmic wrote:Yeah well you can't call somebody a criminal and then 5 minutes later sit down with him to discuss road infrastructure plans as if nothing's the matter. It's one thing or the other.


Virtually every President in history has successfully executed the functions of his office while facing some accusation or another. It's part of the job, and if Trump isn't prepared for it, perhaps he shouldn't have sought the job.

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The Great Hippo
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri May 24, 2019 10:07 am UTC

zmic wrote:Yeah well you can't call somebody a criminal and then 5 minutes later sit down with him to discuss road infrastructure plans as if nothing's the matter.
Why not?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Fri May 24, 2019 1:37 pm UTC

iamspen wrote:
zmic wrote:Yeah well you can't call somebody a criminal and then 5 minutes later sit down with him to discuss road infrastructure plans as if nothing's the matter. It's one thing or the other.


Virtually every President in history has successfully executed the functions of his office while facing some accusation or another. It's part of the job, and if Trump isn't prepared for it, perhaps he shouldn't have sought the job.
Yes!
That!

Food Grief!
Our government would have ground to a halt decades ago if accusations stopped the work of the executive.

Clinton was accused of financial crimes.
The Star team looked at everything he did from grade school forward.

Every tax document.
Every campaign gift and cost.

The only thing the could find was very, very personal.
And; They 'Jumped' on it.

This guy has done worse in public!
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Fri May 24, 2019 2:24 pm UTC

zmic wrote:
addams wrote:And; Today our creepy Cheeto Chief goes on 'strike' because he does;t like Congressional Oversight.

Yeah well you can't call somebody a criminal and then 5 minutes later sit down with him to discuss road infrastructure plans as if nothing's the matter.

It's called serving your country. It's called the office itself being bigger than whoever happens to hold it.

Trump has never been about respect for the office though. In an environment replete with egos he's the supernova that blinds all others.

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zmic
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby zmic » Fri May 24, 2019 3:37 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
zmic wrote:Yeah well you can't call somebody a criminal and then 5 minutes later sit down with him to discuss road infrastructure plans as if nothing's the matter.
Why not?


It's a matter of basic self-respect.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Fri May 24, 2019 4:13 pm UTC

zmic wrote:It's a matter of basic self-respect.
Well, that's one thing Trump has got. He's got loads of self-respect. He's got the most self-respect. No-one's got more self-respect than Trump. He's got more respect for himself than anyone else has for him, and he's got more respect for himself than he has for anyone else. He's the most self-respecting. He's got huge self-respect, the most, folks. It's huge.
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Fri May 24, 2019 5:18 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:
zmic wrote:It's a matter of basic self-respect.
Well, that's one thing Trump has got. He's got loads of self-respect. He's got the most self-respect. No-one's got more self-respect than Trump. He's got more respect for himself than anyone else has for him, and he's got more respect for himself than he has for anyone else. He's the most self-respecting. He's got huge self-respect, the most, folks. It's huge.
Cute.
True and Funny.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ijuin » Fri May 24, 2019 7:25 pm UTC

Yes, what he seems to be lacking in is respect for anyone who is not his supporter.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri May 24, 2019 7:47 pm UTC

zmic wrote:It's a matter of basic self-respect.
I worked in pharmaceutical retail for nearly a decade. I have provided polite, professional customer service to people who have told me that I ought to be stabbed, raped, and lit on fire. I've done it, because it was my job -- and because helping to provide medication in a timely fashion to people who need it is more important than my ego. The world is full of people who perform their duties even when the people they're working with absolutely hate them. If a shitty retail clerk can put aside the bullshit long enough to do his job, are you seriously going to tell me that the president of the United States can't?

Being president is a lot more important than being a cashier. If everyone acted like this whenever their feelings got hurt, nothing would ever get done.

You're right; it is a matter of basic self respect... that permits you to still fulfill your duties even when people hate you. Those who lack basic self respect just spend their time complaining about all the haters. You remember that time Obama had a political rally just so he could bitch for an hour about the birther movement? Or what about when George Bush interrupted his State of the Union to whine about 9/11 truthers?

Yeah, me neither.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby zmic » Fri May 24, 2019 8:14 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
zmic wrote:It's a matter of basic self-respect.
I worked in pharmaceutical retail for nearly a decade. I have provided polite, professional customer service to people who have told me that I ought to be stabbed, raped, and lit on fire. I've done it, because it was my job -- and because helping to provide medication in a timely fashion to people who need it is a lot more important than my ego.


Is Trump's situation that he has to provide life-saving medication to the Democrats in spite of the insults they throw at him? I guess not. Then... what has this got to do with anything? This is a negotiation. Trump is not a service provider to the Democrats.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby solune » Fri May 24, 2019 8:18 pm UTC

zmic wrote:Is Trump's situation that he has to provide life-saving medication to the Democrats in spite of the insults they throw at him? I guess not. Then... what has this got to do with anything?


The president is directly responsible for the lives of 300M people. So yes he should sacrifice his self-respect for his country.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby zmic » Fri May 24, 2019 8:20 pm UTC

solune wrote:
zmic wrote:Is Trump's situation that he has to provide life-saving medication to the Democrats in spite of the insults they throw at him? I guess not. Then... what has this got to do with anything?


The president is directly responsible for the lives of 300M people. So yes he should sacrifice his self-respect for his country.


If Nancy Pelosi asks Trump to lick her shoes at the start of the infrastructure meeting, should he do that to for the cause of the nation?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri May 24, 2019 8:24 pm UTC

zmic wrote:Is Trump's situation that he has to provide life-saving medication to the Democrats in spite of the insults they throw at him? I guess not. Then... what has this got to do with anything? This is a negotiation. Trump is not a service provider to the Democrats.
Trump is a service provider to the American people. To provide that service, he must work with the Democrats. If he's unable to work with the Democrats, he's unable to provide services to the American people. And if he's unable to provide services to the American people, he's unable to do his job.

And Trump's situation is much, much more critical than providing life-saving medication to the American people.
zmic wrote:If Nancy Pelosi asks Trump to lick her shoes at the start of the infrastructure meeting, should he do that to for the cause of the nation?
No. But if Nancy Pelosi wants to talk to him about America's decaying transportation infrastructure -- Trump should do it for the cause of the nation. He shouldn't call the whole thing off because Nancy Pelosi called him a "nasty name" an hour earlier.

This is what politicians do. It's their job: Find compromises with people you despise to achieve a greater good.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby zmic » Fri May 24, 2019 8:29 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:This is what politicians do. It's their job: Find compromises with people you despise to achieve a greater good.


Sense of decorum is part and parcel of political life. Nancy Pelosi straight up called Trump a criminal just before the meeting. Was that necessary? You think that's a good way to start off a negotiation? Did she believe that would help America build public infrastructure? I would argue that it's the Democrats who blew their duty to the people.

Now you see opinion pieces congratulating Pelosi for masterfully trolling Trump. Yeah well done Pelosi. And there goes the infrastructure bill.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri May 24, 2019 8:36 pm UTC

zmic wrote:Sense of decorum is part and parcel of political life. Nancy Pelosi straight up called Trump a criminal just before the meeting. You think that happens every day in the Capitol?
This is false; she didn't call him a criminal (she accused Barr of committing a crime, not Trump -- also, she's actually been getting a lot of flak recently for saying that impeachment proceedings are premature. The only thing she's calling for is the continuance of the investigation). I'm not sure why you feel a need to lie about this.

Regardless, it's irrelevant. Being accused of committing a crime by the lady who's pushing for an investigation into the crimes she alleges you did is no reason to throw your hands up and say you can't work with her anymore. I've seen town council meetings behaving with far greater decorum than this.

(Also, yes -- having the opposition investigate you for possible crimes is, in fact, a thing that's happened before. And yes! -- presidents have still worked with the very people who were pushing for these investigations)
zmic wrote:Now you see opinion pieces congratulating Pelosi for masterfully trolling Trump. Yeah well done Pelosi. And there goes the infrastructure bill.
Are you sincere, or are you trolling? I'm asking, because sincere people don't typically conflate opinion pieces with the intentions of the people they're about.

"Someone on the internet told me that Pelosi was trolling Trump!" isn't really a position that merits a rebuttal.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Fri May 24, 2019 8:56 pm UTC

Politicians shouldn't have to choose between holding the president to account for his actions, and working with him where they can for the good of the country.

It's a worryingly Trumpian attitude that if someone criticises you then they're a meanie for insulting you, and you should pout and take your ball home. Because nothing matters more than your feelings.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby zmic » Fri May 24, 2019 9:13 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
zmic wrote:Sense of decorum is part and parcel of political life. Nancy Pelosi straight up called Trump a criminal just before the meeting. You think that happens every day in the Capitol?
This is false; she didn't call him a criminal (she accused Barr of committing a crime, not Trump -- also, she's actually been getting a lot of flak recently for saying that impeachment proceedings are premature. The only thing she's calling for is the continuance of the investigation). I'm not sure why you feel a need to lie about this.


This is the situation as I understood it from thehill.com:

Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) on Wednesday accused President Trump of being "engaged in a cover-up" following a special meeting of House Democrats focused on ongoing congressional investigations into the Trump administration.

"We do believe that it is important to follow the facts, we believe that no one is above the law, including the president of the United States, and we believe the president of the United States is engaged in a cover-up, in a cover-up," Pelosi told reporters on Capitol Hill.

Her broadside came just moments before she, Senate Minority Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) and other Democrats headed to the White House to meet with Trump on a possible $2 trillion infrastructure package. But the meeting quickly went off the rails after Trump learned of Pelosi’s “cover-up” remarks; the president told the Democrats he couldn’t work with them until they halted all of their "phony investigations."


So Pelosi accused the President, not Barr, of a cover-up. Which is suggesting 2 crimes really: the cover-up, and the thing covered up -- although I have no idea what the thing covered up could be, since Mueller absolved Trump of every single accusation of conspiracy with Russia, which then logically leads to the question why the President would want to cover up something that is not there at all. I also notice that you have a fairly easy time accusing me of lying. You had absolutely no reason for assuming that. But, unlike you, I will assume that you were working from your sincere understanding of yesterday's situation and that you honestly believed that I'm dishonest.

(Also, yes -- having the opposition investigate you for possible crimes is, in fact, a thing that's happened before. And yes! -- presidents have still worked with the very people who were pushing for these investigations)
zmic wrote:Now you see opinion pieces congratulating Pelosi for masterfully trolling Trump. Yeah well done Pelosi. And there goes the infrastructure bill.
Are you sincere, or are you trolling? I'm asking, because sincere people don't typically conflate opinion pieces with the intentions of the people they're about.

"Someone on the internet told me that Pelosi was trolling Trump!" isn't really a position that merits a rebuttal.


That's a fair point. You are right, I should not have dragged that into the discussion.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri May 24, 2019 10:37 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:Politicians shouldn't have to choose between holding the president to account for his actions, and working with him where they can for the good of the country.
This is a really good summary -- so good I'm a little annoyed I didn't think of it myself.

The President treats any attempt to criticize or investigate him as a personal insult. It's therefore impossible to hold the President accountable in any way without insulting him. And if he feels insulted, he'll obstruct you in every way he can.

You're left with only two choices: Never criticize the President, or never get anything done. This is not a responsible position for him to put politicians in.
zmic wrote:So Pelosi accused the President, not Barr, of a cover-up. Which is suggesting 2 crimes really: the cover-up, and the thing covered up -- although I have no idea what the thing covered up could be, since Mueller absolved Trump of every single accusation of conspiracy with Russia, which then logically leads to the question why the President would want to cover up something that is not there at all. I also notice that you have a fairly easy time accusing me of lying. You had absolutely no reason for assuming that. But, unlike you, I will assume that you were working from your sincere understanding of yesterday's situation and that you honestly believed that I'm dishonest.
zmic wrote:Nancy Pelosi straight up called Trump a criminal just before the meeting.
"Nancy Pelosi accused the President of engaging in a cover-up" is not "Nancy Pelosi straight up called Trump a criminal". Again, she didn't accuse him of being a criminal. You can cover things up without breaking the law. And even if you couldn't, this amounts to us being barred from accusing the President of any crime on account of it might hurt his feelings.

By the way: Pelosi isn't pushing to investigate Russian 'collusion'. She's pushing to investigate the obstruction of justice charges. Which the Mueller Report goes out of its way to not absolve him on.

Quoted directly from the report:
Mueller Report wrote:Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.
The report is available online here.

We can all read it. We can all see you're either lying or you're just too lazy to bother looking up the facts.

If you're going to contribute to this discussion, please stop talking out of your ass.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Fri May 24, 2019 11:21 pm UTC

Congress spent far more time with far less evidence investigating Benghazi. Anyone who complains about Congress investigating Trump while staying silent about Clinton is either arguing in bad faith or needs to wake the fuck up. This fear of a vast left-wing conspiracy while the Democrats are taking this slower than any Congress in history has taken investigating the President is fucking scary - this means fascists are controlling the conversation in this country and the centrists are engaged in appeasement. Make no doubts about it - the Republicans have decided that they must destroy democracy to maintain control of the country, and your fear of the left is just playing into their hands.

I think pretty much everyone on the right think they are anti-authoritarian only because they name their system of rules "freedom". If they were honest and didn't speak newspeak, they would just call themselves fascists.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby freezeblade » Fri May 24, 2019 11:31 pm UTC

It's also pretty rich to hold others to a "don't hurt Trump's feelings" standard, when Trump every day on twitter personally insults other politicians and people in the public eye.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Sat May 25, 2019 1:20 am UTC

zmic wrote:
solune wrote:
zmic wrote:Is Trump's situation that he has to provide life-saving medication to the Democrats in spite of the insults they throw at him? I guess not. Then... what has this got to do with anything?


The president is directly responsible for the lives of 300M people. So yes he should sacrifice his self-respect for his country.


If Nancy Pelosi asks Trump to lick her shoes at the start of the infrastructure meeting, should he do that to for the cause of the nation?
People go out there and DIE for the good of the Nation.
Our Cheeto Toddler can lick your shoes for the good of the Nation.
(He has no trouble bowing to, curtsying for and brown nosing Putin and the Saudis.)

I'm in favor of him going door to door shoe licking.
While we are at it, I'd like to take a look at his Bone Spurs.

Edit: And; Damn it!
Infrastructure is important!
We, the people, need our roads and bridges repaired!

It is damn frightening out there.
I don't know where you are, but the weather has taken a toll on the Infrastructure in my neck of the woods.
It's really not safe Out There. We need to get some work done before the next winter cuts us off completely.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby zmic » Sat May 25, 2019 7:33 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
zmic wrote:Nancy Pelosi straight up called Trump a criminal just before the meeting.
"Nancy Pelosi accused the President of engaging in a cover-up" is not "Nancy Pelosi straight up called Trump a criminal". Again, she didn't accuse him of being a criminal. You can cover things up without breaking the law.


Being accused of a cover-up is a pretty hefty accusation. Obstruction of justice IS a crime.

And even if you couldn't, this amounts to us being barred from accusing the President of any crime on account of it might hurt his feelings.

By the way: Pelosi isn't pushing to investigate Russian 'collusion'.


I love how 2.5 years of mass hysteria about Trump conspiring with Russia is now waved away with an airy gesture as if this question never really mattered at all. Was this thing not supposed to be the heart of the matter?

She's pushing to investigate the obstruction of justice charges. Which the Mueller Report goes out of its way to not absolve him on.

Quoted directly from the report:
Mueller Report wrote:Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.
The report is available online here.

We can all read it. We can all see you're either lying or you're just too lazy to bother looking up the facts.


I'm not sure why I'm being accused of lying or being lazy. I never said that Mueller exonerated Trump regarding obstruction of justice, if that is what you're trying to imply here. It's funny how this conversation mirrors the thing being discussed. You fling out wild and unfounded accusations, while I struggle with the question whether I should stay in this conversation at all, since I'm getting insulted at every step.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Sat May 25, 2019 8:25 am UTC

zmic wrote:Being accused of a cover-up is a pretty hefty accusation. Obstruction of justice IS a crime.
Yes, but again: A cover-up is not necessarily a criminal act. And also again: Even if it was (which it isn't), your position is that we're not allowed to accuse the President of crimes because doing so implies he's a criminal, and implying that he's a criminal might hurt his feelings.

This is a stupid position.
zmic wrote:I love how 2.5 years of mass hysteria about Trump conspiring with Russia is now waved away with an airy gesture as if this question never really mattered at all. Was this thing not supposed to be the heart of the matter?
Yes, it was. And it is. Pelosi is saying we ought to investigate the attempt to interfere into the investigation of that conspiracy.

For the record, I've always been skeptical any such conspiracy exists -- not that it matters.
zmic wrote:I'm not sure why I'm being accused of lying or being lazy. I never said that Mueller exonerated Trump regarding obstruction of justice, if that is what you're trying to imply here. It's funny how this conversation mirrors the thing being discussed. You fling out wild and unfounded accusations, while I struggle with the question whether I should stay in this conversation at all, since I'm getting insulted at every step.
zmic, for the several years I've read your posts on this forum, I've watched you do nothing but be insulting, derisive, and mean-spirited. I've literally never seen you make a positive contribution to any discussion here. Who knows, though -- there's a lot of the forum I don't read. Maybe there's a thread somewhere where you give good advice on how to beat the final boss from Dark Souls? But to be quite frank, I've always just figured you for a very patient, persistent troll.

So please, by all means -- step out of the discussion. While you're at it, step out of all of 'em. Your opinions are childishly churlish, your positions deliberately insulting, and your points so weak they could be refuted by my 12 year old niece armed with a link to wikipedia.

By the way: Mueller didn't absolve Trump's campaign of conspiring with Russia, either. It only failed to establish a conspiracy (again, he made a point of this). So, yeah -- still either lying or too lazy to bother with facts.

At this point, I'm comfortable going with "lying".


ETA: As a pre-emptive "thanks-for-not-responding" present, I decided to do a quick five-minute post-search to grab some random examples of your "contributions" to various discussions:
Spoiler:
On abortion!
zmic wrote:I hate to break the news to you, but abortion is really on its way out, as humanity is slowly but surely progressing towards more mature attitudes on sexuality, especially the insight the pleasing your private parts cannot take precedence over the termination of human life. You can rage and rant all that you want, but that is simply how it is going to be. I estimate it will take two more generations.
On euthanasia!
zmic wrote:So apparently my pain about somebody killing himself is just selfish and cruel, and easy to reason away.

Then why don't you go the person who wants to kill himself, and tell him that his pain is just selfish and cruel, and easy to reason away.
On sex-work!
zmic wrote:What happens in a brothel is often nothing but rape. It just doesn't get counted.
On women being bothered by men while reading in public spaces!
zmic wrote:Do you actually enjoy sitting in a cafe? From your posting it seems you would save yourself a lot of anguish by just reading your book in your bedroom.

Man, get a load of those piping hot takes. You're a real keeper, zmic.

Still didn't find anything about how to beat the Lord of Cinder, though. :/

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Dauric
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dauric » Sat May 25, 2019 10:32 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
zmic wrote:I love how 2.5 years of mass hysteria about Trump conspiring with Russia is now waved away with an airy gesture as if this question never really mattered at all. Was this thing not supposed to be the heart of the matter?
Yes, it was. And it is. Pelosi is saying we ought to investigate the attempt to interfere into the investigation of that conspiracy.

For the record, I've always been skeptical any such conspiracy exists -- not that it matters.


Actually Trump colluding with the Russians wasn't at the heart of the matter. A number of his senior advisers were under investigation (and some have since gone to jail), but Trump himself never was.

The wild thing is: If Trump had just let the investigation in to Russian election interference go and not been so butthurt that the implication was he wasn't as popular as he thinks he is, Trump never would have put pressure on Comey and wouldn't have fired him. Even then when Trump decided to fire Comey the White House staff had to cook up an elaborate ruse involving then Deputy Attorney General Rosenstein's criticisms of Comey's handling of the Clinton e-mail investigation. But that blew up because it looked like Trump wasn't at the center of that decision, and Trump went on NBC and promptly blew apart the shred of cover that the Rosenstein memo gave him so he could look like he was in charge. Unfortunately for Trump being in charge of firing someone investigating people close to him opened Trump up to potential Obstruction of Justice charges.

The only reason Trump was investigated by Muller was because Trump is so terrifyingly easy to insult.

Frontline: The Muller Investigation
We're in the traffic-chopper over the XKCD boards where there's been a thread-derailment. A Liquified Godwin spill has evacuated threads in a fourty-post radius of the accident, Lolcats and TVTropes have broken free of their containers. It is believed that the Point has perished.

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addams
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Sat May 25, 2019 1:12 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
zmic wrote:Being accused of a cover-up is a pretty hefty accusation. Obstruction of justice IS a crime.
Yes, but again: A cover-up is not necessarily a criminal act. And also again: Even if it was (which it isn't), your position is that we're not allowed to accuse the President of crimes because doing so implies he's a criminal, and implying that he's a criminal might hurt his feelings.

This is a stupid position.
zmic wrote:I love how 2.5 years of mass hysteria about Trump conspiring with Russia is now waved away with an airy gesture as if this question never really mattered at all. Was this thing not supposed to be the heart of the matter?
Yes, it was. And it is. Pelosi is saying we ought to investigate the attempt to interfere into the investigation of that conspiracy.

For the record, I've always been skeptical any such conspiracy exists -- not that it matters.
zmic wrote:I'm not sure why I'm being accused of lying or being lazy. I never said that Mueller exonerated Trump regarding obstruction of justice, if that is what you're trying to imply here. It's funny how this conversation mirrors the thing being discussed. You fling out wild and unfounded accusations, while I struggle with the question whether I should stay in this conversation at all, since I'm getting insulted at every step.
zmic, for the several years I've read your posts on this forum, I've watched you do nothing but be insulting, derisive, and mean-spirited. I've literally never seen you make a positive contribution to any discussion here. Who knows, though -- there's a lot of the forum I don't read. Maybe there's a thread somewhere where you give good advice on how to beat the final boss from Dark Souls? But to be quite frank, I've always just figured you for a very patient, persistent troll.

So please, by all means -- step out of the discussion. While you're at it, step out of all of 'em. Your opinions are childishly churlish, your positions deliberately insulting, and your points so weak they could be refuted by my 12 year old niece armed with a link to wikipedia.

By the way: Mueller didn't absolve Trump's campaign of conspiring with Russia, either. It only failed to establish a conspiracy (again, he made a point of this). So, yeah -- still either lying or too lazy to bother with facts.

At this point, I'm comfortable going with "lying".


ETA: As a pre-emptive "thanks-for-not-responding" present, I decided to do a quick five-minute post-search to grab some random examples of your "contributions" to various discussions:
Spoiler:
On abortion!
zmic wrote:I hate to break the news to you, but abortion is really on its way out, as humanity is slowly but surely progressing towards more mature attitudes on sexuality, especially the insight the pleasing your private parts cannot take precedence over the termination of human life. You can rage and rant all that you want, but that is simply how it is going to be. I estimate it will take two more generations.
On euthanasia!
zmic wrote:So apparently my pain about somebody killing himself is just selfish and cruel, and easy to reason away.

Then why don't you go the person who wants to kill himself, and tell him that his pain is just selfish and cruel, and easy to reason away.
On sex-work!
zmic wrote:What happens in a brothel is often nothing but rape. It just doesn't get counted.
On women being bothered by men while reading in public spaces!
zmic wrote:Do you actually enjoy sitting in a cafe? From your posting it seems you would save yourself a lot of anguish by just reading your book in your bedroom.

Man, get a load of those piping hot takes. You're a real keeper, zmic.

Still didn't find anything about how to beat the Lord of Cinder, though. :/
Oohh! Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZJi_NStV9k
You make a clear and well supported claim, Hippo.
We have a Troll. (Gee. It may be a native speaker.)

...sigh... EchoChambers that are closed to valid ideas are not good for their Posters.
Yet; Trolls must be controlled or they control the conversation. And; That's Bad for us.

Thank You, Hippo.
Finding citations is bothersome.
You bothering to find and post examples; That puts us all on a more level footing.

Oh...I fixed this for you.
By the way: Mueller didn't absolve Trump's campaign of conspiring with Russia, either. It only failed to establish a criminal conspiracy (again, he made a point of this). So, yeah -- still either lying or too lazy to bother with facts.
Criminal conspiracy is a very high bar.

Our Cheeto Toddler cleared the bar for regular old conspiracy in plain sight, for all to see.
And; Then gave a televised interview explaining his motivation for obstruction, just to be sure we knew what we were working with.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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zmic
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby zmic » Sat May 25, 2019 9:33 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:
zmic wrote:I love how 2.5 years of mass hysteria about Trump conspiring with Russia is now waved away with an airy gesture as if this question never really mattered at all. Was this thing not supposed to be the heart of the matter?
Yes, it was. And it is. Pelosi is saying we ought to investigate the attempt to interfere into the investigation of that conspiracy.

For the record, I've always been skeptical any such conspiracy exists -- not that it matters.


Actually Trump colluding with the Russians wasn't at the heart of the matter. A number of his senior advisers were under investigation (and some have since gone to jail), but Trump himself never was.

The wild thing is: If Trump had just let the investigation in to Russian election interference go and not been so butthurt that the implication was he wasn't as popular as he thinks he is, Trump never would have put pressure on Comey and wouldn't have fired him. Even then when Trump decided to fire Comey the White House staff had to cook up an elaborate ruse involving then Deputy Attorney General Rosenstein's criticisms of Comey's handling of the Clinton e-mail investigation. But that blew up because it looked like Trump wasn't at the center of that decision, and Trump went on NBC and promptly blew apart the shred of cover that the Rosenstein memo gave him so he could look like he was in charge. Unfortunately for Trump being in charge of firing someone investigating people close to him opened Trump up to potential Obstruction of Justice charges.


That's all very nice but you're totally ignoring the heart of the matter, which is that Donald Trump did the right thing for the country by firing James Comey. As the President, you don't want a toxic self-serving unelected politician at the top of the FBI. Here's the thing: of course Comey understood perfectly well that the Steele Dossier and the whole collusion story were 100% garbage. He understood this because he's not a complete idiot. Still, he refused to shut down the investigation and instead appeared in congressional hearings on live television, doing his sanctimonious boy-scout act and pulling grave faces about grave concerns being investigated. This was just a power play against the newly elected President. You may remember that other little stunt that Comey pulled, re-opening the investigation against Clinton just two weeks before the elections, just to let the future Madam President know that James Comey better be respected. Of course the most delicious irony of that episode is that by his moronic action Comey may very well have pushed Trump over the winning line, and that Comey was deceived, not by Russian propaganda, but by the mainstream media that made him believe that Clinton's lead was unassailable.

So Trump was right to fire Comey as a means to shut down the investigation because he correctly understood that Comey was intent on using this bogus investigation as a political weapon against him. That is not "obstruction of justice". That's trying to run the fucking country.

And there's the whole truth, just remember that you heard it from me first.
Last edited by zmic on Sat May 25, 2019 10:12 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Sat May 25, 2019 10:08 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:Actually Trump colluding with the Russians wasn't at the heart of the matter. A number of his senior advisers were under investigation (and some have since gone to jail), but Trump himself never was.
Fair enough; in my (tepid) defense, this nonsense has been going on for so long it's easy to forget who's investigating who for what and why. I appreciate the correction.
That's all very nice but you're totally ignoring the heart of the matter, which is that Donald Trump did the right thing for the country by firing James Comey.

...

And there's the truth, remember that you heard it first from me.
I can't wait for you to return under your bridge, sleep for the next five years, then reawaken to grace the forum with your next series of hot takes: "All bisexual women are bitches", "Being transgender is systemic racial oppression", and "All gay sex is rape that reinforces the patriarchy".

Mutex
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Sun May 26, 2019 9:31 am UTC

Yeah, the nicest way to describe that would be "a load of insane conjecture". I was going to rebut it point by point but it doesn't really seem worth it, there's no substance backing any of it up to start with.

bbluewi
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby bbluewi » Sun May 26, 2019 6:29 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:Yeah, the nicest way to describe that would be "a load of insane conjecture". I was going to rebut it point by point but it doesn't really seem worth it, there's no substance backing any of it up to start with.

It's a Gish gallop. Spew a wall of nonsense, then when someone tries to refute the massive pile of bullshit, spew another massive pile of bullshit. The goal is to troll, and it fits pretty well with the alt-righters I've seen on other websites.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Quercus » Sun May 26, 2019 7:43 pm UTC

bbluewi wrote:
Mutex wrote:Yeah, the nicest way to describe that would be "a load of insane conjecture". I was going to rebut it point by point but it doesn't really seem worth it, there's no substance backing any of it up to start with.

It's a Gish gallop. Spew a wall of nonsense, then when someone tries to refute the massive pile of bullshit, spew another massive pile of bullshit. The goal is to troll, and it fits pretty well with the alt-righters I've seen on other websites.


The next step is usually to conflate "everyone else got fed up with my bullshit and stopped responding" with "I won the argument".

Mutex
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Sun May 26, 2019 8:52 pm UTC

Of course because we're not playing that game it means we couldn't refute the argument and so had to get personal.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Mon May 27, 2019 12:06 pm UTC

See the same thing from flat-earthers, anti-vaxxers, white-supremacists, climate change deniers and fundamentalists with persecution complexes:

"Bullshit bullshit bullshit bullshit horseshit horseshit horseshit horseshit crap crap crap crap catpoo bullshit horseshit bullshit horseshit crap crap bullshit crap bullshit bullshit horseshit horseshit horseshit crap crap crap horseshit bullshit," then when bullshit, horseshit and crap all get refuted, claim to have won the debate because "They've got no answer to catpoo." Then next time they show up it's "Catpoo catpoo catpoo catpoo catpoo catpoo catpoo catpoo catpoo no you've got no answer to catpoo and you know you've got no answer to catpoo so don't even bother trying to answer catpoo catpoo catpoo catpoo crap horseshit crap crap bullshit catpoo catpoo catpoo dogturd camelshit horseshit camelshit bullshit horseshit hoseshit bullshit," and when you respond to catpoo and camelshit and repeat the debunks of crap, horseshit and bullshit they claim to have won the debate because "You've got no answer to dogturd."
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

solune
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby solune » Mon May 27, 2019 2:24 pm UTC

For bonus points, try to replace the wikipedia page about Gish Gallop by your explanation :D

Meticulac
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Meticulac » Tue May 28, 2019 4:19 pm UTC

Still, I think I'll still throw in a few of my own responses anyway.

zmic wrote:
addams wrote:And; Today our creepy Cheeto Chief goes on 'strike' because he does;t like Congressional Oversight.


Yeah well you can't call somebody a criminal and then 5 minutes later sit down with him to discuss road infrastructure plans as if nothing's the matter. It's one thing or the other. The Democrats are free to create some FUD cover-up narrative in the media, but then at least they should be consistent with it. This dichotomy is really the rot at the heart of the Democrats "strategy", if you can call this a strategy.

Well, this concept does also fit with how poorly Trump's negotiations with Canada, China, and Mexico are doing. I guess the Democratic party's next move will be to impose tariffs against Trump? Not to mention Trump's relation to the media. Why listen to someone who calls you fake and a liar any time you question them?

zmic wrote:Sense of decorum is part and parcel of political life.

Right, of course, that's definitely a thing Trump has ever respected. Hence why there's such a long list of affectionat nicknames he has for people, with examples like "Swampman Joe Biden", "Wacky Jacky", "Head Clown Chuck Schumer", "Crooked Hillary", "Slimeball James Comey", and "Crazy Nancy" just for other domestic politicians. In fact, look up "Trump speech" right now and watch that decorum just ooze right out of him!

zmic wrote:Now you see opinion pieces congratulating Pelosi for masterfully trolling Trump.

Not like Trump, who never trolls. That's how we got MAGA Pepe, his complete lack of association with trolling. "Owning the libs", a phrase used to describe performing an action specifically to goad a negative reaction among those in the Democratic party, also known as trolling them? Nothing to do with Trump, he would never do that.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby iamspen » Wed May 29, 2019 9:28 am UTC



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