Police misbehavior thread

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gd1 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:32 am UTC

Quizatzhaderac wrote:Again, non-sequitur. I was responding to Natraj's 3/21 actual statements, not Natraj's 3/26 intentions.


That's quitur talk. Quiturs don't win.

On topic:
I feel like the police are supposed to be a deterrent to misbehavior by imposing a penalty after the fact at the least. Like seat belts they may not always save your life and can be uncomfortable and inconvenient at times, but I'd like to think that they help when they're working properly.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:25 am UTC

It just doesn't work like that:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... oesnt-work

Even if it did work, it's still not justifiable to use punishment in lieu of addressing causes, which if we addressed the problems we would probably not see a reason for punishment anyway.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:09 am UTC

That experiment seems a bit dodgy in its conclusions, even though the experiment itself seems to be worthy.. The rat is shocked once and only once, with no followup shocks. What happens with two shocks? Shocks every 5th time? Shocks combined with food or whatever?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:16 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:That experiment seems a bit dodgy in its conclusions, even though the experiment itself seems to be worthy.. The rat is shocked once and only once, with no followup shocks. What happens with two shocks? Shocks every 5th time? Shocks combined with food or whatever?
I am so tired of reading, hearing about another damn rat study. Rats are cheap, reliable, and reproducible. Too bad they aren't people and lose validity once you dig into finer details. Yes I know that human trials are expensive/impractical, but I would do it just so human interest stories would wither.
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freezeblade wrote:Well, almost anything is better than the current state of affairs for these. Here's what happens currently where I live (Answered for Oakland, CA.)

1. Dude is acting unhinged, so I clutch my pearls and call the cops.
Unless they are acting violently, there's no reason to call. People die from police response because of this currently, and if you make this sort of call in most Oakland neighborhoods, then you are the problem, not them.
2. 911 gets a call that there's a man with a gun at a house and says he's already started killing hostages.
This is the only real in-crisis in the whole list. This is pretty much the only case that I'm ok with the current state of militarized responses.
3. I got robbed so I call the cops.
Currently, if no one was injured, they wouldn't even send an officer. They will have you fill out a form online and may get back to you in a week.
4. I'm speeding.
Obviously you get a punitive ticket, the problem is that this can morph into a permutation of the below situation, if the cop doesn't like how you look.
5. I'm speeding with a large amount of cash and cops see evidence of drugs.
"Evidence of drugs" is a well known excuse the police use to search/seize property/cash of someone they don't like who they pull over. The "evidence" most of the time is a fabricated "It smells like drugs in your car." I'll let you guess which people get this sort of treatment most often.

I'm fairly aware of how it works now in the United States. But the hypothetical is about reformed police( unless you're implying that the Oakland police is a model for all police departments everywhere).
1. I called the cops, what are the cops going to do? If you think reformed police should admonish me for calling in, say so. In addition, that doesn't solve the problem especially with the mentally ill in the country. First responders are going to interact with a lot of mentally ill people. They should be aware of how to treat/respond to them instead of telling the people to ignore the mentally ill (or what cops do now, which is to escalate the situation until a shooting/beatdown/arrest is warranted).
2. I'm ambivalent about militarized response even in this scenario. For one thing, there's no proof that the people are even being killed. If it was, the tradeoff is you militarized the cops, which is a bad deal.
3. People need to realize that seeing justice happen quickly is important. Do you realize the fear and trauma that a robbery (or any personal crime) causes? Citizens need to see cops responding quickly to, investigating crime scenes, and leading to arrests. Otherwise the community(including potential criminals) will think that the cops don't care (really a week long response? I could do street justice in that time).
4 & 5. Why get a ticket at all? Fines are inherently unfair, and simply push the fragile poor into debtor prisons. To a poor person, even a $100 ticket is a disaster that takes weeks to recover from, if ever. Same thing with making poor people take time to respond to administrative (or punitive) events like court dates or appointments. All you really accomplished is getting a guy fired for missing work.
The point is reform isn't easy or obvious. I was curious if the total reformation/revolution in policing had a more complete picture of what policing looks like. I do agree that anything is better than the status quo.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:04 am UTC

sardia wrote:4 & 5. Why get a ticket at all? Fines are inherently unfair, and simply push the fragile poor into debtor prisons. To a poor person, even a $100 ticket is a disaster that takes weeks to recover from, if ever. Same thing with making poor people take time to respond to administrative (or punitive) events like court dates or appointments. All you really accomplished is getting a guy fired for missing work.


If the issue is the unfairness of fines you could make them proportional to income (or wealth). Im not sure what your alternative is here. How do you incentivize driving below the speed limit? You could spin it as a discount on license renewal or something but thats basically the same thing as a fine for speeding. Or do you propose removing speeding laws altogether? I assume speeding was simply an example of the type of minor infraction that could result in a fine, so would you propose removing all said laws and their consequent fines?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:04 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:That experiment seems a bit dodgy in its conclusions, even though the experiment itself seems to be worthy.. The rat is shocked once and only once, with no followup shocks. What happens with two shocks? Shocks every 5th time? Shocks combined with food or whatever?


There are tons of other studies on prisoners and children which conclude either it doesn't work at all, or is less effective than working with people in a positive way. If your conclusion is that punishment works, find evidence supporting it. The fact remains, we are using punishment as an alternative to addressing the problem and that makes the problems even worse.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:28 pm UTC

Chen wrote:If the issue is the unfairness of fines you could make them proportional to income (or wealth). Im not sure what your alternative is here. How do you incentivize driving below the speed limit? You could spin it as a discount on license renewal or something but thats basically the same thing as a fine for speeding. Or do you propose removing speeding laws altogether? I assume speeding was simply an example of the type of minor infraction that could result in a fine, so would you propose removing all said laws and their consequent fines?

Some examples already in use? You only serve jail time after work.
1. a 5p to 9a jail cell where you report to work like normal.
2. Why do you have to punish people for a bunch of minor infractions anyway? They're adults, treat them like it.
3. How about a stern talking to?
4. Corporal punishment, from your mom, family unit or cop.

There's some progress being made with scaling fees, but it's not enough. For one thing, government buildings/services aren't open 24/7, conveniently located, online, or quick. Poor people don't have a lot of Time or Money. At least, not in chunks that the law expects.
Honestly it feels weird not to punish people for minor crimes, but the damage it causes is immense when you total it across the country. If you look harder, all you're doing is band aids for deeper societal problems. But it makes a real difference.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:38 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Honestly it feels weird not to punish people for minor crimes, but the damage it causes is immense when you total it across the country. If you look harder, all you're doing is band aids for deeper societal problems. But it makes a real difference.


Well if you don't want to punish people for these, what is the alternative you are proposing? Just not enforcing the law? It's basically the same as not having it (or making it just a recommendation). I'm not saying that's actually a bad idea, but is that what you are proposing? Just hoping that everyone will play nice and obey non-enforced laws doesn't seem realistic.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby cphite » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:34 pm UTC

1. Dude is acting unhinged, so I clutch my pearls and call the cops.
Unless they are acting violently, there's no reason to call. People die from police response because of this currently, and if you make this sort of call in most Oakland neighborhoods, then you are the problem, not them.


They don't need to be acting violently to be a danger to themselves or others. For example, someone who is incoherent and wandering into traffic could get themselves killed, or cause an accident that kills someone else. They could be threatening to hurt themselves or someone else, or they could be doing something (or threatening to do something) that could prove dangerous.

This thing that "people die from police response" is a gross exaggeration. There are literally hundreds of millions of police responses in a year; approximately one thousand of those result in lethal force, and that includes both legitimate and otherwise. If someone is acting in a manner that puts themselves or someone else at risk, failing to call for help out of fear that "police kill people" is both irrational and irresponsible.

3. I got robbed so I call the cops.
Currently, if no one was injured, they wouldn't even send an officer. They will have you fill out a form online and may get back to you in a week.


It depends on the nature of the robbery, what was taken, how entry was gained, and other factors; but you can usually get an officer to show up if requested. You have to bear in mind that how long it takes will generally depend on available resources.

4. I'm speeding.
Obviously you get a punitive ticket, the problem is that this can morph into a permutation of the below situation, if the cop doesn't like how you look.


An infinitesimal number of traffic stops progress to something that involves use of force; you're still far more likely to be killed or seriously injured by a speeding driver - or as a speeding driver - than you are as a result of a traffic stop.

5. I'm speeding with a large amount of cash and cops see evidence of drugs.
"Evidence of drugs" is a well known excuse the police use to search/seize property/cash of someone they don't like who they pull over. The "evidence" most of the time is a fabricated "It smells like drugs in your car." I'll let you guess which people get this sort of treatment most often.


Most of the time, evidence of drugs turns out to be evidence of drugs.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:43 pm UTC

Regarding the rat study and the effectiveness of punishment. I see two ways of looking at this.

Weakening the statement from "punishment doesn't work" to punishment often has trivial marginal utility, if we discount satisfying feeling of retribution, revenge, and indignation as "utility". This requires weaker evidence and pretty strongly supported by psychology and criminal justice literature. This leads to the conclusion that in many cases decreasing penalties dramatically would be more efficient.

Another way to look at it is to admit the rat and human psychology is different (more-so for punishment than reinforcement) and to understand how it's similar and how it's different. Human responses to punishment depends heavily on how we contextualize things. Humans can be reinforced to do things they see as irrational, and resisting this conditioning requires effort. If a human is punished for doing something they see as rational, the punishment will stick about as well as it does with the rat; they see the problem as being caught, or an uncontrollable circumstance.

The lessons I'd say we should take from this are remembering that the police earning/encourage a decent attitude from the enforced communities is essential for their function. Punishments need to be severe enough that a life of crime is unappealing to a rational person, and further punishments are wasteful/ counter productive.

Likewise with improving the police, we should be encourage tactful behavior and managing how the police see themselves, communities, and suspects.
So like that would happen if I call the reformed " police"in the following scenarios:
1. Dude is acting unhinged, so I clutch my pearls and call the cops.
2. 911 gets a call that there's a man with a gun at a house and says he's already started killing hostages.
3. I got robbed so I call the cops.
4. I'm speeding.
5. I'm speeding with a large amount of cash and cops see evidence of drugs.
My two cents:

  1. It's the police's job to deal with the mentally ill, they do it a lot, as such they should be specifically trained. Even moderately small amounts of training can have enormous improvements in outcome.
  2. Send people with guns, less lethal weapons, body armor, tear gas, send snipers; train these people in both capture and kill scenarios for armed perpetrators. Also send someone trained in de-escalation because maybe it's not actually as bad as the call makes it out to be or can be solved without additional violence even if it is.
  3. Same things that happen for white people today, just for everyone. If a well funded department someone comes out right away, in a underfunded department fill out a form online and maybe get a response in a week.
  4. Get a ticket with a well funded department. If the department can't afford to enforce robbery, it enforced speed no better (and possibly worse) than it enforces robbery.
  5. If the officer reasonably suspects the person has imbibed, test for sobriety and potentially prevent a non-sober person from driving. Otherwise that's not a traffic cop's job. I don't oppose the concept that there might be a responsible synergy between traffic and drug enforcement; I just think there's far so much pretext-to-excuse-a-searching that it would be better to stop it in our particular society. As for the cash: until specific, clear laws are passed limiting the circumstances you can carry around large amounts of cash, carrying around large amounts of cash is a legal activity and should not meet with punitive measures.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:31 pm UTC

cphite wrote:If someone is acting in a manner that puts themselves or someone else at risk, failing to call for help out of fear that "police kill people" is both irrational and irresponsible.
Depending on where you live, the police you're dealing with, and the circumstances you're bringing them into, calling the police can be extremely irresponsible. You're calling on poorly trained highly dangerous strangers with guns to intercede in an already volatile situation.

Besides, let's not forget that fatalities aren't the only "unfortunate" consequence of police intervention. There's also violence and arrest, both of which can ruin another person's life.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:01 pm UTC

here we have the cops, like the cartoon villains they are, crashing into a child's birthday party and drawing guns on small (4 & 7 year old, no doubt VERY THREATENING) black children then smushing the birthday cake and pouring peroxide over the birthday presents. by the way they broke into the wrong house! i'm just glad those kids aren't dead! anyway thank god for cops phew what would we do without them.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:53 am UTC

In Chicago, like many U.S. cities, it is better to be guilty and rich than innocent and poor.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Angua » Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:08 am UTC

natraj wrote:here we have the cops, like the cartoon villains they are, crashing into a child's birthday party and drawing guns on small (4 & 7 year old, no doubt VERY THREATENING) black children then smushing the birthday cake and pouring peroxide over the birthday presents. by the way they broke into the wrong house! i'm just glad those kids aren't dead! anyway thank god for cops phew what would we do without them.

Also from the article:
Hofeld also said the raid was not an isolated incident, and that the Bures family's lawsuit is the "fourth of a series of excessive-force cases against the City of Chicago alleging Chicago Police are holding guns on children and terrorizing families on the South and West Sides.
Crabtree's bludgeon: “no set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated”
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:09 pm UTC

yup but like! where are the priorities in illinois? oh its on planning legislation to literally penalize companies for working with one, specific, black gay men in some kind of incredibly petty act of vengeance for something he wasn't even convicted of? AND they're tryna sue him for the cost of his own investigation? NONE of this energy toward the $700 million the chicago pd has had to pay out in settlements for misconduct alone? wild.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:35 pm UTC

natraj wrote:yup but like! where are the priorities in illinois? oh its on planning legislation to literally penalize companies for working with one, specific, black gay men in some kind of incredibly petty act of vengeance for something he wasn't even convicted of? AND they're tryna sue him for the cost of his own investigation? NONE of this energy toward the $700 million the chicago pd has had to pay out in settlements for misconduct alone? wild.
Are we seriously talking about passing legislation to punish just one person? Are we seriously talking about police billing someone for falsifying a crime (instead of, y'know, just pressing charges for the actual crime of falsifying a crime)? If he did the thing you're alleging, then, I don't know -- maybe try convicting him using your broken-ass legal system? Instead of this extralegal punitive bullshit? How is this even a thing worth discussing?

ETA: Reading up on it, it looks like what happened was that the prosecutor's office decided to exercise their discretion and cut a deal with him. Mayor Emanuel and Rep. McAuliffe didn't like this deal, so they're pursuing civil and extralegal punishment (respectively). I'm no expert on law or governance, but this sounds ridiculously shady -- not to mention unethical.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:27 pm UTC

A reminder here that Chicago is believed to have spent a whopping $700 million to settle police misconduct allegations and judgements since 2010—something that seems like a much more important thing for lawmakers to focus on, rather than targeting a single individual for a single incident which has been legally nullified and is extremely murky.

Currently Illinois offers a 30% transferrable tax credit for qualified productions to film in the state. Last year alone, film and TV production brought in nearly half a billion dollars for Illinois’ state economy. In an email, a spokesman for the Illinois Film Board explained that because Smollett was not a resident of Illinois, his personal wages did not qualify for the state tax incentive, and that Empire contributed around $200 million to the state over the past five years while “employing hundreds of Illinoisans.”
So, ah, any production that might employ someone like Smollet won't get tax credits in Illinois?

Well, that's half a billion dollars a year that could be better spent in another state, then, isn't it?

More pertinently, that's six-point-some times their annual police misconduct settlement budget they might not have in the balance sheet in future years.

Interesting.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:13 pm UTC

oh the cpd are also holding a protest because of this whole jussie smollett thing, given how they tend to respond to protests (i have myself personally been tear gassed in chicago on multiple occassions!) i gotta wonder who is going to be free during this to show up and beat the protesters!
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:23 pm UTC

Police are organizing a protest over the fact that someone tried to falsify a crime, got caught, and didn't get sufficiently punished? Is that genuinely what's going on, here? Have these people lost their fucking minds? Did they have them to begin with?

I'd make a joke about whether or not the police think they ought to just take "justice" into their own hands, but at this point? If I were this guy? I'd stay the fuck out of Chicago -- because that might just happen.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:28 pm UTC

police are organizing a protest over the fact that they say someone tried to falsify a crime, and the charges were dropped. keep in mind that it is the police's word we have to go on at this point. the people who they say were going to come forward and testify about this never actually did come forward and say anything. so the police are protesting that they drummed up charges against someone, who they say may have committed a crime but the charges were subsequently dropped and they are mad that he was not sufficiently punished, yes.

like whether or not he did it back after the initial report it took all of a few hours before they had DECIDED he was guilty and stopped investigating the attack to INSTEAD investigate him and the specific, explicit, reason they gave at the time was that they thought he Seemed Guilty because he didn't want to cooperate ENOUGH with the police which like?

maybe he is guilty and maybe he is not guilty, but they were definitely out to get him from the jump. they decided he didn't lick their boots enough from day 1 and that was very clear to everyone black because the day this first happened they were like "he's not acting innocent enough, he hasn't been a cooperative victim" and guess what, that's exactly what i heard when i got raped and didn't make nice to the officer who was literally sexually harassing me lmao. (which was in chicago too by the way)
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:25 am UTC

natraj wrote:police are organizing a protest over the fact that they say someone tried to falsify a crime, and the charges were dropped. keep in mind that it is the police's word we have to go on at this point. the people who they say were going to come forward and testify about this never actually did come forward and say anything. so the police are protesting that they drummed up charges against someone, who they say may have committed a crime but the charges were subsequently dropped and they are mad that he was not sufficiently punished, yes.

like whether or not he did it back after the initial report it took all of a few hours before they had DECIDED he was guilty and stopped investigating the attack to INSTEAD investigate him and the specific, explicit, reason they gave at the time was that they thought he Seemed Guilty because he didn't want to cooperate ENOUGH with the police which like?

maybe he is guilty and maybe he is not guilty, but they were definitely out to get him from the jump. they decided he didn't lick their boots enough from day 1 and that was very clear to everyone black because the day this first happened they were like "he's not acting innocent enough, he hasn't been a cooperative victim" and guess what, that's exactly what i heard when i got raped and didn't make nice to the officer who was literally sexually harassing me lmao. (which was in chicago too by the way)

I don't get it, there should be tons of evidence if Smullet did this. Messages to and from the alleged conspirators, money transactions of the labor & materials involved, witness testimony from the co-conspirators. I'm getting conflicting signals because people on the proto-prosecutorial and defense side are extremely confident here. Was all the evidence the police had pointing towards Smullet being the bad guy wrong? I had just assumed there was misconduct gathering evidence so they threw out the evidence or something "fruit of the poison tree."

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:50 am UTC

Why??
Why is it so easy to derail a conversation to examine the details of a somewhat petty crime committed by an advantaged person?
The crime of Terrorizing civilians in their home is a crime the police are committing.

I am interested in the details of prosecuting those men.
And; In putting the Fear of God into the rest of the Department.

Smullet is an attention whore of some kind. Why?? Why do people care about him?
The discussion Should be about the safety of the non-famous people of Chicago.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:55 am UTC

Short answer? Fascists need to prove there is a conspiracy to give undeserving minorities jobs that should go to deserving white people. The other side of this is treating any criticism of white privilege as equivalent to saying that white skin should be banned. It is not in good faith.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby kiklion » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:13 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
natraj wrote:police are organizing a protest over the fact that they say someone tried to falsify a crime, and the charges were dropped. keep in mind that it is the police's word we have to go on at this point. the people who they say were going to come forward and testify about this never actually did come forward and say anything. so the police are protesting that they drummed up charges against someone, who they say may have committed a crime but the charges were subsequently dropped and they are mad that he was not sufficiently punished, yes.

like whether or not he did it back after the initial report it took all of a few hours before they had DECIDED he was guilty and stopped investigating the attack to INSTEAD investigate him and the specific, explicit, reason they gave at the time was that they thought he Seemed Guilty because he didn't want to cooperate ENOUGH with the police which like?

maybe he is guilty and maybe he is not guilty, but they were definitely out to get him from the jump. they decided he didn't lick their boots enough from day 1 and that was very clear to everyone black because the day this first happened they were like "he's not acting innocent enough, he hasn't been a cooperative victim" and guess what, that's exactly what i heard when i got raped and didn't make nice to the officer who was literally sexually harassing me lmao. (which was in chicago too by the way)

I don't get it, there should be tons of evidence if Smullet did this. Messages to and from the alleged conspirators, money transactions of the labor & materials involved, witness testimony from the co-conspirators. I'm getting conflicting signals because people on the proto-prosecutorial and defense side are extremely confident here. Was all the evidence the police had pointing towards Smullet being the bad guy wrong? I had just assumed there was misconduct gathering evidence so they threw out the evidence or something "fruit of the poison tree."


CBS has a timeline of events: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jussie-smo ... t-updates/

A grand jury saw the evidence and decided that there was enough to pursue a charge against him, but because charges were dropped and the case sealed, I don't think we will get to see the evidence.

On reddit's law subreddit, they mentioned that dropping all charges like this is unusual unless the police messed up and contaminated the evidence. However that makes it odd that the police are against it as it would be protecting their mistakes from being known. If the prosecutor was just letting the defendant off lightly there would be a diversion agreement instead of dropping the charges.

Here is a direct link where they talked about dropping charges vs diversion agreements:
https://www.reddit.com/r/law/comments/b ... c/ejqh8ty/

There is also a 'megathread' on the law front page if you wish to see other discussion around the event.

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sardia
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:56 pm UTC

That tells me nothing. Will the feds bring him to court for mail fraud? Will the prosecutor that gave jussie a easy deal be prosecuted? Was there police misconduct when gathering evidence? Those are at least tangible things.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:46 pm UTC

kiklion wrote:A grand jury saw the evidence and decided that there was enough to pursue a charge against him, but because charges were dropped and the case sealed, I don't think we will get to see the evidence.


ahahaha are you actually pretending that a grand jury indictment is indicative of anything at all? do you have literally any idea how rare it is for grand juries not to indict? p much if you want a grand jury to not indict someone you need them to be a police officer who has murdered a black person, otherwise you are almost assured an indictment if charges are brought before a grand jury.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby kiklion » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:19 pm UTC

sardia wrote:That tells me nothing. Will the feds bring him to court for mail fraud? Will the prosecutor that gave jussie a easy deal be prosecuted? Was there police misconduct when gathering evidence? Those are at least tangible things.


Trumps said that the FBI would review it, but I don't trust Trumps statements so... you're guess is as good as mine. Prosecutor probably won't be prosecuted/disbarred according to this thread https://www.reddit.com/r/law/comments/b ... d/ejmcqb6/ though the IPBA released a damning statement against the prosecutor.

There was no claim of police misconduct made by anyone involved with dropping the charges, so best guess is that it didn't exist but it's difficult to prove that something doesn't exist.

Though you might get the information you want, Twitter Link is a local news source saying that the case is in the process of being unsealed.

natraj wrote:
kiklion wrote:A grand jury saw the evidence and decided that there was enough to pursue a charge against him, but because charges were dropped and the case sealed, I don't think we will get to see the evidence.


ahahaha are you actually pretending that a grand jury indictment is indicative of anything at all? do you have literally any idea how rare it is for grand juries not to indict? p much if you want a grand jury to not indict someone you need them to be a police officer who has murdered a black person, otherwise you are almost assured an indictment if charges are brought before a grand jury.


I only mentioned the grand jury because Sardia said: "I don't get it, there should be tons of evidence if Smullet did this", which I read to mean Sardia hadn't read of any evidence. Because the prosecutor dropped and sealed the case, there is no list of evidence presented. The only information available is whatever you can infer from the grand jury outcome and how each side is reacting to the dropping of the case.

Also, you said:
natraj wrote:keep in mind that it is the police's word we have to go on at this point.


Which is inaccurate. There is also the word of the grand jury. Unless you want to argue that the grand jury solely consisted of police officers.

Finally, with regards to the rate that grand juries indict, I cannot find any state level statistics for Illinois. Or any state for that matter. Feel free to share your sources if you know how rare it is

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:25 am UTC

kiklion wrote:There was no claim of police misconduct made by anyone involved with dropping the charges, so best guess is that it didn't exist but it's difficult to prove that something doesn't exist.
Right, but that's precisely why prosecutors would drop the charges -- to protect police. Why would they file that claim if they were trying to protect police?

(And, as paradoxical as it sounds, it makes sense police would throw a hissy fit in the wake of this -- it's easier to blame the prosecutor for not finding a way to 'make it work' than to take a good, hard look at yourself and realize that maybe the prosecutor's just covering your incompetent ass again)
kiklion wrote: The only information available is whatever you can infer from the grand jury outcome and how each side is reacting to the dropping of the case.
kiklion wrote:Finally, with regards to the rate that grand juries indict, I cannot find any state level statistics for Illinois. Or any state for that matter. Feel free to share your sources if you know how rare it is
Grand juries pretty much do whatever the prosecutor wants them to do. It's understandable you wouldn't know this (I mean, unless you actually have to deal with legal charges, it's not something that tends to come up!), but this isn't even a controversial statement. It's just the way it works. If a prosecutor can't get the grand jury to indict, it's almost always because the prosecutor didn't want to indict.

Don't try to infer anything from a grand jury indictment beyond "the prosecutor wanted to charge someone with something". It's evidence of guilt only in the same sense that me getting a warrant to search your house for guns is evidence that you actually have guns.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby solune » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:14 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:If a prosecutor can't get the grand jury to indict, it's almost always because the prosecutor didn't want to indict.


That was an important criticism in the Fergusson case. Some commentators pointed out how uncommon it was for a prosecutor to bring rebuttal evidence to a grand jury and that he was only doing that because the defendant was a cop.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:49 pm UTC

kiklion wrote:Finally, with regards to the rate that grand juries indict, I cannot find any state level statistics for Illinois. Or any state for that matter. Feel free to share your sources if you know how rare it is
I couldn't find Illinois, but federally it's 99.99%. The standards of evidence are both lower and clearer than a trial, so the prosecutor will generally now the outcome before they go to a hearing.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:01 pm UTC

Part of it is the discretion. You usually drop the case if you didn't think you had a good case, or plea bargain. But yeah, people are too deferential to law enforcement.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:02 pm UTC

My understanding is that in a Grand Jury hearing, the defense doesn't actually present any evidence or make any arguments. Much easier to win when the other side isn't playing.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:48 pm UTC

Yes, absolutely. A hearing isn't a trail. It's intended to be list checking ceremony; the actual trail is the place for contrary evidence, opinions, arguments, establishing intent, and all that complex stuff.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby cphite » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:02 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:My understanding is that in a Grand Jury hearing, the defense doesn't actually present any evidence or make any arguments. Much easier to win when the other side isn't playing.


It's not really a matter of winning.

The purpose of a Grand Jury hearing is for the prosecution to demonstrate that it actually has a case - that it actually has evidence. It's a procedural thing. The defense can call shenanigans if there are obvious problems with evidence or the handling of the case; but they aren't there to present counter-evidence or any sort of argument. And the standard for evidence is far lower than in a trial. That's why 99% of them move forward. The prosecution doesn't have to show that it could win a trial - they just have to show that they have enough evidence to actually have a trial.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:53 pm UTC

I think the use of these things counts as misbehaviour:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-dQj8N196g

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby EdgarJPublius » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:42 am UTC

All locks and safes designed specifically for firearms are almost universally terrible.

Lock Picking Lawyer has numerous videos on that general topic.
The rifle lock for cop cars is especially terrible when you realize almost all cop cars are fleet keyed with a super common bitting.

There's this talk by Deviant Ollam on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SVMT_zNlgA

Also this video of a three year old opening a few different models of gun safe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erGOJxQIf5c
By a group that's written some good white papers on the topic and I believe has been involved in one or more successful class action lawsuits against firearm safe manufacturers.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:41 am UTC

Cop "mistakes" gun for taser, shoots inmate. Officer not charged, obviously, but retired from department.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:10 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Cop "mistakes" gun for taser, shoots inmate. Officer not charged, obviously, but retired from department.


Forgetting the lack of punishment for the moment (which is sadly not unexpected) what would the charge have been here? The person didnt die. There was no intent to kill. Would it have just been assault? Assault with a deadly weapon? Some sort of attempted murder?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Quercus » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:46 am UTC

Chen wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Cop "mistakes" gun for taser, shoots inmate. Officer not charged, obviously, but retired from department.


Forgetting the lack of punishment for the moment (which is sadly not unexpected) what would the charge have been here? The person didnt die. There was no intent to kill. Would it have just been assault? Assault with a deadly weapon? Some sort of attempted murder?

Not very familiar with US law, but perhaps some form of criminal negligence charge?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:56 pm UTC

Reckless endangerment resulting in grievous bodily harm, possibly, just from what's in this thread not from the the article?
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