Police misbehavior thread

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cphite
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby cphite » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:50 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
ucim wrote:To those who say it's impossible by definition to be good and be a cop, how do you propose that laws be enforced? Or do you propose that laws not be enforced (or equivalently, that there be no laws at all)?


Unjust laws should not exist or be enforced.


Fair enough; but who do you propose should enforce the just laws?

I don't see anyone saying, "It is definitionally impossible to be a good person enforcing any hypothetical set of rules you could possibly imagine."


Having a functional society requires rules; and for those rules to work there needs to be someone with the authority and ability to enforce them.

As for how (just) laws should be enforced, I've gotta believe that question is somewhat rhetorical on your part, or that you've got a piss-poor memory, because this thread has been here longer than you have and I'm pretty sure that's been discussed repeatedly every other time someone before you has asked "well who's going to show up and shoot someone ~prevent crime~ if not for the police?!?".


It's been discussed, sure; but frankly nobody has ever come up with a reasonable answer that actually negates the need for police, or offers an actual, workable replacement.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:52 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:If you can give an example of capitalism and violently oppressive state power working well on a large sclae (not just better than in the US, but in an actually positive way), then we'll talk. Otherwise it's not really fair to always demand well-functioning large scale examples of one option when the prevailing alternative has never worked very well for most people, either.


I'd say the American system actually is working well for most, but the cracks in the system might as well be canyons.

As for best system, by what metric are we going by? Life expectancy, Gini Index, whatever the "happiness" index is? Gini is weird, would not want to live in Ukraine, but by life expectancy and happiness the Nordic system seems to be working pretty well.


Global wealth inequality benefits Western countries, and this is all distorted by natural resources, so this isn't even a valid comparison. You have to show that the entire world is just to argue the merits of America's economic system this way.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:57 pm UTC

That's hardly fair. A dictator oppressing his own people is predominantly not the fault of the US, and rectifying the situation through regime change only makes things worse.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:02 pm UTC

Okay, so prove that Americans don't profit off of it, then you don't have to take it into account.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ObsessoMom » Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:09 pm UTC

Let's review the origins of the term "banana republic", and the role of US capitalism in them.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:19 pm UTC

On top of that, global consumption is unsustainable and America consumes more than anyone else in the world, thus America necessarily contributes to this inequality by depriving others of access to the resources we consume.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:40 pm UTC

Actually, the US tends to rank around the 10th rather than 1st for resource consumption per capita. Qatar and KSA, for instance, tend to be at the top, though probably not so high if all the slaves were included in the calculation. It's also flawed in the sense that a good chunk of the US's consumption is on behalf of the EU in the form of the military; I've never heard of a naval cruiser going green, at least not until the adoption of rail guns forces every ship to go nuclear powered instead of bunker fuel.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:42 pm UTC

Oh, well, then nothing to do with America. Fucking Christ.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:16 pm UTC

Something that might be a useful note in this discussion: last time a topic like this came up, it became clear that some people were considering whatever organization would enforce the rules of whatever ideal justice system to be "not police", and "police" by definition to be the kind of enforcement of the kind of "justice" system we have at present. So when those people say it's not possible to be good and a police officer, they're only saying it's not possible to be good and to participate in the flawed system we have at present, not that it's impossible to be good and to be part of some kind of law enforcement system or another, so long as that system is itself good.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:36 pm UTC

I think I can agree with pforrest on that point.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:37 pm UTC

cphite wrote:
I don't see anyone saying, "It is definitionally impossible to be a good person enforcing any hypothetical set of rules you could possibly imagine."

Having a functional society requires rules; and for those rules to work there needs to be someone with the authority and ability to enforce them.

How does that relate to what you quoted from me? Did you miss the "don't" part?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:52 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Welcome to my foe list as well.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:00 pm UTC

elasto wrote:So firefighters in the US can get off scot-free letting people burn alive in a fire simply because they haven't paid their taxes? There'd be no legal comeback at all?
The obligation is entirely a professional obligation.

In the US policeman, sheriffs, FBI agents, firefighters et cetra are civilians (non-military) and are not under a legal obligation to do their jobs; at any time they may say "I quit" and walk away. If they suddenly decide not to do important parts of their duty, the worst that can happen is them being fired "with cause". What this means is they will lose their job, be unable to get unemployment insurance, and be potentially be unable to get their pension.

Civil service jobs tend to come with some extra protections, and so hearings may be involved, but any proceedings will not be in an actual criminal court.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby cphite » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:03 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Something that might be a useful note in this discussion: last time a topic like this came up, it became clear that some people were considering whatever organization would enforce the rules of whatever ideal justice system to be "not police", and "police" by definition to be the kind of enforcement of the kind of "justice" system we have at present. So when those people say it's not possible to be good and a police officer, they're only saying it's not possible to be good and to participate in the flawed system we have at present, not that it's impossible to be good and to be part of some kind of law enforcement system or another, so long as that system is itself good.


Frankly, those people are wrong.

Our system is most definitely flawed - there are massive, systemic flaws. But the reality is that any system you replace it with will almost certainly develop the same kinds of flaws; because any system that anyone can come up with will be one that is created by, and run by, human beings - who are the source of the flaws. The people working within the system - the police, the judges, the lawmakers, and even the masses of nameless office workers who support them - all inject their own individual flaws into the system. At the end of the day, the flaws in the system reflect the flaws in our society.

But still, it's absolutely possible for good people to work within the system and do the right things to the best of their ability, even if that means in some cases working despite the system. And frankly, in my own experience, it's not that there are a small number of good people fighting against the bad - it's a small number of bad people who are screwing it up for everyone else. Unfortunately, they're the ones that get the most attention.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:03 pm UTC

Stop trying to create authoritarian systems to control people, and just worry about empowering them. It's I everyone's interest to cooperate, so empower people and then it's just a matter of activism.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:28 pm UTC

You need a system that makes sure "the right people" get empowered, and making sure "the right people" got empowered was what at least two people in that "Don't Be A Sucker" video were promising to do.

"The right people" isn't everyone.

Fella proved that pretty convincingly in New Zealand recently, and another did likewise in a church in Charleston a few years ago, remember?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:32 pm UTC

"As proof that empowering people is bad, here is an example of someone who was manipulated into harming others by propaganda that targeted dissatisfied members of society who otherwise feel powerless to improve their situation."
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:43 pm UTC

..... and took it out on even less empowered people than himself.

Found himself enough power to do that, didn't he?

Maybe if he'd had the power of taxpayer-funded attorneys, he could have sued them for something instead. If they had, at that stage, not been similarly empowered, he could have taken all their homes and cars as "damages."

Who's to make sure they'd get empowered? Who judges the judges' decisions on what cases get thrown out?

Empowerment sounds like a great idea. Universal healthcare and public transport free at point of use sound like great ideas too.

Not sure I'd trust anyone appointed by Tronald Dump to administer that, though. Somehow I think it'd get rolled out to some selected communities first and then not expanded.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:46 pm UTC

I don't think you understand what it means to empower people. You are basically saying "Imagine everything is exactly like it is today with absolutely no differences, but people are empowered. Bam! Entire idea of empowerment dismissed!"
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:09 pm UTC

To everyone who keeps complaining that there's no effective alternative system to law enforcement besides the American one:

Remember how a while back in Iceland, police shot someone dead -- for the first time *ever*? Remember how they apologized to the family (despite the guy literally coming after them with a shotgun)? Remember how they treated this not as a success, or a regrettable but inevitable consequence -- but as a *failure*?

You know how you fix police? Don't train them to be murderers who respond to every situation with escalation and force. Train them to use the law not as a weapon, but an implement of last resort. A police officer's job is NOT to arrest people. An arrest is what you do when NOTHING ELSE can resolve the situation. An arrest is the system failing.

Again, for emphasis: A police officer's job is to NOT arrest people. In every situation, that should be their aim: "How can I protect everyone's rights here with the minimum application of force?"

In a just society, a police officer's role would be that of someone who de-escalates a conflict, protects people from violence (even state violence), and safeguards public safety. In our current system, police meet arrest quotas, murder on behalf of the state, and are called on to force people into harm's way as "cost saving measures". Police are not civil servants; they are government (and corporate) thugs.

The US puts more people in prison per capita than any other country. Being a police officer in the US means your job is to put people in prison. In other words, your job is to ruin people's lives. This is a systemic problem.

And it's fucking horrifying.

ETA: Also, let's not forget that part of the reason a police officer's job IS to arrest people is because for-profit prison lobbies push for that (because more prisons mean more profit). Oh, and y'know where a lot of those very same businesses are opening shop now? Detention centers for undocumented immigrants. I bet ICE's recent increase in funding and aggression is completely coincidental, though.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:35 pm UTC

https://apnews.com/df20dedf955a468397aa724f73640c37

Police detain black man who was moving into his home after he was spotted carrying a TV out of a moving van.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:10 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:The US puts more people in prison per capita than any other country. Being a police officer in the US means your job is to put people in prison. In other words, your job is to ruin people's lives. This is a systemic problem.


like honestly this alone here is... i just can't even get around how mind bogglingly stupid you have to be to think that "some firefighters are racist/classist/etc and have let people's houses burn down because they're poor" is even remotely a comparable or analogous situation to "literally the entire purpose of your job is to exert state violence regardless of the justice of the law".

firefighters' job is to put out fires; if they do it correctly and within the defined scope of the position they are helping curb damage and save lives and if they fail to do it they might be a bigoted jackass but they aren't intentionally and specifically causing more harm, they are failing to stop the existing danger which would be there with or without them.

police officers job is not to protect people, despite the propaganda, it has literally been ruled in court that this is not the purpose of the police and anyone who argues that police are there for anyone's protection is just a bootlicker who does not actually have any idea why the police exist and so parrots defenses of them that are contrary to our existing proven system.

the job of police is to utilize force in order to uphold the law. our laws protect property above human life and in fact are often specifically structured to harm people who are poor and otherwise disenfranchised.

a police officer who does not do this might be a "good person" but they are not a "good cop", they are failing in the duty of cops to uphold the law.

a firefighter who doesn't put out fires (especially for bigoted reasons) is a bad person and very likely a bad firefighter as well, but even under the understanding that firefighters may not have a legal duty to put out all fires (because guess what! firefighters are still operating in an unequal society, of course there's going to be some biased bs that shows up!), it still doesn't make their actual job centered around actively doing harm on the same level as the job of police. if the scope of a firefighters' position included "also set fires to people's houses if they haven't paid their fees" then there'd be a point to this comparison!
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ucim » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:38 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:In a just society, a police officer's role would be that of someone who de-escalates a conflict, protects people from violence (even state violence), and safeguards public safety.
Yes, I agree. But if in this society police don't do that, that doesn't mean that the very idea of police is a bad idea. Those who think it does are wrong. And those that re-define the word "police" to mean something different are also wrong. IM(E)O, of course.

Thesh wrote:I don't think you understand what it means to empower people.
Then tell us. Without magical thinking like "adopt my system and people will just be good of their own accord". Because they won't. They are people. I see this on the big scale (like our country's leadership) and on the small scale (like local hobbyist groups). So, how do you "empower" people in a way that has them not take advantage of that empowerment to get ahead, without first picking out the "good" people to empower?

natraj wrote:our laws protect property above human life
Citation needed. Citation of actual law that says that, in print. Not citation of law enforcement being, uh, "less than ideal" (which we all agree it is). Note - I'm not claiming that the implementation is not problematic. But you are claiming that it's by design. Show me the currently valid and enforced statute that says that when choosing between property and an innocent person's life, that property should win.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:59 am UTC

seriously? what a ludicrous question. literally any time someone is penalized, legally, for poverty, which happens on a daily basis in every single facet of our society, this is what we are doing. when people are evicted from their homes for being poor, that is valuing property over human life. when basic resources like food and water are poisoned and privatized, that is valuing property over human life. when we have an entire medical system structured around the ability to deny people life saving care because they are too poor, that is valuing property over human life. it is literally impossible for capitalism to exist without legally prioritizing the value of material goods over people's basic life needs. i am not going to cite you a law that says you can't steal food if you're hungry or a law that says if you don't pay your rent you get evicted and become homeless or if you are too poor you aren't allowed access to medical care, even you can't be ignorant enough to not realize this is how society works.

we have myriad laws in place whereby people can end up in jail for being too poor. if you get a fine that you cannot pay you can go to jail; if you haven't even committed a crime AT ALL but you can't afford bail you can be in jail for years. i'm not gracing a question so patently transparently obvious with a citation of "laws are set up so that if you are poor you can be kicked out of your house" or "laws are set up so that if you are poor you can die from lack of medical care" or "bail systems, as they are written, are set up so that poor people can be stuck in prison for a long time for no crime whatsoever". these things are just a fact; we criminalize poverty at great cost in human lives.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:36 am UTC

ucim wrote:
Thesh wrote:I don't think you understand what it means to empower people.
Then tell us. Without magical thinking like "adopt my system and people will just be good of their own accord". Because they won't. They are people. I see this on the big scale (like our country's leadership) and on the small scale (like local hobbyist groups). So, how do you "empower" people in a way that has them not take advantage of that empowerment to get ahead, without first picking out the "good" people to empower?


No, it's not just "adopt my system", it's literally just recognizing the causes of problems and addressing them. People can only get ahead because the police enforce them being ahead, through the threat of violence. I get it, you have a model in your head of how human behavior works, but it's just plain wrong - people are naturally social, and when they are empowered can deal with their problems by working together. Why don't you explain why some areas have little violence and some areas have so much, and maybe then you'll get your answer. Probably not, of course, as you are one of those "we must ignore the existence of the entire field of psychology and evaluate everything by the idea of everyone being a selfish asshole" types who never looks past the surface.

Look, humans aren't your thing, and you don't understand economics or politics, so please take some time to study maybe some anthropology. You don't seem to have any understanding outside of the justifications for the current American system.

At the very least, look at alternative models of human behavior:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_reciprocans
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_economics
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:11 am UTC

ucim wrote:Yes, I agree. But if in this society police don't do that, that doesn't mean that the very idea of police is a bad idea. Those who think it does are wrong. And those that re-define the word "police" to mean something different are also wrong. IM(E)O, of course.
The problem is, the very term 'police' in American society means a specific thing; a thing which is, at its very core, a bad idea.

If we redefine police to mean something better, then we can accept the term. Or come up with another one! I don't care (and I don't think it really matters). But yes: The very idea of police, as it exists in America, is fundamentally wrong.

ETA: Part of the disconnect here might be that police are just one part of an incredibly corrupt, broken system; an unjust link in an unjust chain. When we reject the idea of police, we're not just rejecting the concept of "police" in a vacuum -- we're rejecting police in conjunction with the unjust laws they uphold, the perverted "justice system" they're beholden to, and the horrifyingly monstrous prisons they send people to. All of these things are monstrous, and all of these things contribute to police being, ultimately, a force for evil.

There are good police, I suspect -- in other countries. Countries that don't have utterly broken laws, broken courts, and broken prisons.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:34 am UTC

I have news for you, the courts are broken in virtually all other countries too. In Singapore, it's de facto a crime to appeal a court decision, Japan's legal system is basically guilty until proven innocent, France has a serious problem with its minorities, etc. The main difference being that in some of the countries the prisons aren't broken as well, so the problem doesn't get amplified a dozen times.

So I would argue that the highest priority would be to somehow break the prison-industrial complex. It won't fix the problem of the courts, but it will shrink the problem...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ucim » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:06 am UTC

natraj wrote:[stuff]
From your comments, I assume you think the very concept of a grocery store - a place where there is lots of food but you can't get it unless you pay - is a Bad Thing. Am I right?

natraj wrote:...it is literally impossible for capitalism to exist without legally prioritizing the value of material goods over people's basic life needs.
But this isn't "police are inherently Bad", but rather, "capitalism is inherently Bad". Which is an entirely different discussion. Police are there to enforce laws; if the laws are bad that's not the police's fault, and "fixing" the police fails to address the issue .

Being poor sucks. But is the idea of police the root cause of poverty?

Thesh wrote:...people are naturally social, and when they are empowered can deal with their problems by working together.
Yes, they are naturally social. Most of them. Towards their friends and potential friends. But not all of them are, and that is the issue. The creator of the biggest social network in the world is antisocial. The head of the free world is antisocial. And my neighbor down the block and across the street is antisocial. People, in addition to wanting to get along, want to get ahead. (Not just in the financial sense too - look at the petty politics of pretty much any volunteer organization).

It's not that everyone is a selfish asshole (which I never said). It's that there exist assholes , whether they be selfish, antisocial, mean, or for any other reason. What should be the societal response happen when damaging assholery happens, and how do you ensure that that does happen?

I looked at those alaternative models of human behavior. I was not impressed. They are models. My experience is with actual human behavior.

The Great Hippo wrote:The problem is, the very term 'police' in American society means a specific thing; a thing which is, at its very core, a bad idea.
What does it mean? Why is it Bad? Note - I am not talking about implementation - I'm talking about concept, because people have said the concept of police is Bad.

I can certainly see a case being made that those in power ensure that the system keeps them in power. But again, that's an implementation issue, not a basic flaw with the idea of a power structure.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:08 am UTC

Thesh wrote:you have a model in your head of how human behavior works, but it's just plain wrong - people are naturally social

Any system built upon any conception of "human nature" is on tenuous ground, because humans are not a homogeneous monolith. Humans are complex, varied, and ever-changing. You're right that the conception of all humans as always greedy, competitive, and cut-throat is wrong, and any system built on the assumption that they are is broken; but the conception of all humans as always caring, cooperative, and forgiving is wrong too. Different humans are different mixes of both of those extremes, to different degrees at different times. A successful social system will need to be able to deal with all of those different behaviors; reinforcing and encouraging the pro-social ones, like you say, but also, when people are anti-social, it needs to be able to contain and discourage that behavior. I think you'll probably say that of course you agree with that but that the answer is not what we have now, and I'd agree with that, but it sounds like you're saying that all people are naturally always social, when that's as much an oversimplification as the capitalist one you're arguing against. Sometimes some people behave badly. Not everybody all the time, but some people some times, so we can't rely on everybody always behaving well.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Quercus » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:09 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I have news for you, the courts are broken in virtually all other countries too. In Singapore, it's de facto a crime to appeal a court decision, Japan's legal system is basically guilty until proven innocent, France has a serious problem with its minorities, etc. The main difference being that in some of the countries the prisons aren't broken as well, so the problem doesn't get amplified a dozen times.

So I would argue that the highest priority would be to somehow break the prison-industrial complex. It won't fix the problem of the courts, but it will shrink the problem...


There are, however, several ways that the courts are extra broken in the US, in which they are not broken in at least some other countries. That implies that *those* issues are, in theory, fixable:

* An extremely poor provision for legal aid (such that poor people are massively disadvantaged at trial)
* No pre-trial mechanism to decide whether prosecution is in the public interest, only whether there is probable cause to indict.
* A plea bargaining system, used in over 90% of cases, which is, frankly a horrifying affront to justice, encouraging as it does the innocent to plead guilty under threat of being wrongly found guilty for even greater crimes. I agree with the Sterling professor of law and legal history at Yale when he suggests that plea bargaining in the US operates as a form of judicial torture

John H Langbein wrote:There is, of course, a difference between having your limbs crushed if you refuse to confess, or suffering some extra years of imprisonment if you refuse to confess, but the difference is of degree, not kind. Plea bargaining, like torture, is coercive. Like the medieval Europeans, the Americans are now operating a procedural system that engages in condemnation without adjudication.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:20 am UTC

I think most of those issues would disappear once private prisons can no longer lobby to keep them in place...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Quercus » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:33 am UTC

ucim wrote:My experience is with actual human behavior.


Um, no it isn't. No-one magically gets direct experience of stuff like that. Your experience, as everyone else's, is of a small sample of human behaviour, produced under very particular circumstances dictated by where you happen to live and what gets reported in the news you read, filtered through your own biases, which will naturally cause certain experiences to stick in your mind and be given more weight, and certain experiences to be all but entirely forgotten. In other words, a model, a particularly opaque one, and likely not a particularly good one either (I'm not by any means claiming that you're worse than any other human here - humans are all terrible at making accurate models of reality without a formal framework).

CorruptUser wrote:I think most of those issues would disappear once private prisons can no longer lobby to keep them in place...

That's fair

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:55 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
Thesh wrote:you have a model in your head of how human behavior works, but it's just plain wrong - people are naturally social

Any system built upon any conception of "human nature" is on tenuous ground, because humans are not a homogeneous monolith. Humans are complex, varied, and ever-changing.


Humans forming social groups based on cooperation is a pretty major aspect of our species. Empowerment means being able to use education and systems of organization to resolve conflicts without violence. Antisocial behavior can mostly be addressed by taking care of needs and getting rid of the rule of law as the basis of social organization, thus requiring that we maintain positive relationships rather than being able to get away with being an insufferable prick provided that you don't break the rules.
Summum ius, summa iniuria.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:00 am UTC

ucim wrote:What does it mean? Why is it Bad? Note - I am not talking about implementation - I'm talking about concept, because people have said the concept of police is Bad.
Conceptually, criminal justice is punitive: Police exist to punish the guilty. That's the entire concept behind the entire American justice system. "Punish bad guys". Arresting people and putting them in prison was never a bug; it's a feature.

Conceptually, police should exist to protect everyone. Arrests should be a measure of last resort; a way of addressing a situation in which no other solution can protect us. Instead, prison is mostly just a place where we punish people for being poor, or smoking pot.

If it helps, think of this in computer terms: As an application, police should exist to protect lives. Arresting or shooting someone is an exception you throw when there's no other adequate way to protect human life. But police, as an application, was built to shoot and arrest people first. Protecting lives (such as in this case, where the police all quit to protect inmates) is the exception the application throws.

Both in practice and in concept, police prioritize property over life and prioritize the punishment of "guilt" over the protection of lives. It's staggeringly insane.
Quercus wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:I think most of those issues would disappear once private prisons can no longer lobby to keep them in place...


That's fair
I don't think it's fair -- but only because I don't think the the problems we face with our justice system started the moment private prisons started lobbying for wildly disproportionate sentencing.

Mind you, I think prison lobbyists have added a tremendous amount of fuel to this fire -- they turned a serious problem into a fucking crisis -- but the problem existed long before they showed up. They just found a way to capitalize on human misery, and have been pushing faster and faster in that direction ever since.
Last edited by The Great Hippo on Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:06 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:06 am UTC

And the problems in other countries have been burning for decades if not centuries, and I'm not sure if the problems can ever truly, permanently be solved. But just because we didn't start this fire (it was always burning since the world's been turning) doesn't mean we shouldn't turn off the gasoline pipeline that is the private prison lobbying.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:08 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:And the problems in other countries have been burning for decades if not centuries, and I'm not sure if the problems can ever truly, permanently be solved. But just because we didn't start this fire (it was always burning since the world's been turning) doesn't mean we shouldn't turn off the gasoline pipeline that is the private prison lobbying.
To be clear, I didn't bother responding to your post where you cite countries where justice systems are still pretty bad, because it requires us to ignore all the countries where prison reform has had overwhelmingly positive results (like Norway). I mean, you cited Singapore.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:27 am UTC

ucim wrote:But not all of them are, and that is the issue. The creator of the biggest social network in the world is antisocial. The head of the free world is antisocial. And my neighbor down the block and across the street is antisocial.

People, in addition to wanting to get along, want to get ahead. (Not just in the financial sense too - look at the petty politics of pretty much any volunteer organization).


So, because people are anti-social, we should create a system that rewards people proportionally to how much property they acquire and then use violence against anyone who violates their property rights. Your post doesn't make sense. What, exactly, is your conclusion, here? It seems to me that your arguments tend to boil down to "I have located a potential problem with another system that I, personally, am unable to resolve, so unless you can provide me a perfect set of rules I must conclude that the system we have is the best it gets".

ucim wrote:It's not that everyone is a selfish asshole (which I never said). It's that there exist assholes , whether they be selfish, antisocial, mean, or for any other reason. What should be the societal response happen when damaging assholery happens, and how do you ensure that that does happen?


Well, according to you, we should write rules in advance and hope that they break them, and then fling our arms up in the air if they don't and say "Oh, well, what else can we do but continue to pay them millions of dollars?"
Summum ius, summa iniuria.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:51 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:To be clear, I didn't bother responding to your post where you cite countries where justice systems are still pretty bad, because it requires us to ignore all the countries where prison reform has had overwhelmingly positive results (like Norway). I mean, you cited Singapore.


The Nordic justice systems are fairly decent examples of things done right and they didnt evolve into any type of anarchy or radically different political system.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:52 pm UTC

I like this Pfhorrest poster's posts. They seem like good posts.

...

ucim wrote:
Thesh wrote:I don't think you understand what it means to empower people.
Then tell us.
Also this. Thesh, show me.

Thesh wrote:Humans forming social groups based on cooperation is a pretty major aspect of our species. Empowerment means being able to use education and systems of organization to resolve conflicts ...
to the satisfaction of the group that's big enough to impose its will on the excluded minorities [/quote]... without violence. Antisocial behavior can mostly be addressed by taking care of needs and getting rid of the rule of law as the basis of social organization, thus requiring that we maintain positive relationships rather than being able to get away with being an insufferable prick provided that you don't break the rules.[/quote]Emphasis mine.

There's always going to be a system. There's always going to be a way to game the system with rumours and poisoning the well and encouraging others to pick on someone. There will always be an envelope of behaviour that society tolerates and people will always skim the edges of that envelope for personal gain.

I may only be forty-some years old and only have visited thirty-some countries, but that does count as experience and you are not going to convince me that I am unqualified to say that a place where no human bullies or robs any other human looks like this:

Image

... or this:

Image

... not this:

Image

... or this:

Image

... or this:

Image
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:05 pm UTC

Dude, you haven't backed up a single thing you said in this thread. You have done nothing but make blind assertions without any reasoning to back it up but "this is the way it is*. Look, you want to understand something completely different than what we have? Well, do something other than just look for a scenario that takes place in a vacuum that backs up your bias, like ask yourself what can be done to fix out problems today? Why don't you ask what causes massacres Christchurch and maybe consider what can be done?

But I know you don't want that. You don't want to do th bare minimum of work to try and understand how to organize society without laws. You just want to flat-out assert that it's impossible. It seems to me like you are on the "if something else cannot be perfect, accept what we have" side, too, as you don't even want to address or understand any real problem. It's like the arguments "Equality? Hah! Define equality for me in a way that proves perfect equality is possible? Not possible! Hah, socialism destroyed by facts and logic!"
Summum ius, summa iniuria.


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