2084: "FDR"

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2084: "FDR"

Postby Moose Anus » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:45 pm UTC

Image
Title text: June 21st, 365, the date of the big Mediterranean earthquake and tsunami, lived in infamy for a few centuries before fading. Maybe the trick is a catchy rhyme; the '5th of November' thing is still going strong over 400 years later.

A comic which will live in infamy.
Lemonade? ...Aww, ok.

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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby April191774 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:06 pm UTC

catchy rhyme?

April 19, 1775
Hardly a man is left alive
That remembers that famous date and year....

In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue...

In 1815 we took a little trip.....
Last edited by April191774 on Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:35 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby angelus911 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:09 pm UTC

According to Wikipedia, the Crete earthquake was July 21, 365. Is he using another source?

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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby Moose Anus » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:37 pm UTC

angelus911 wrote:According to Wikipedia, the Crete earthquake was July 21, 365. Is he using another source?
Either that or he got it wrong because he has no mnemonic for it.
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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby sonar1313 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:57 pm UTC

angelus911 wrote:According to Wikipedia, the Crete earthquake was July 21, 365. Is he using another source?


He did say the date faded from memory, after all.

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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby cellocgw » Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:09 pm UTC

angelus911 wrote:According to Wikipedia, the Crete earthquake was July 21, 365. Is he using another source?


Probably a matter of calendar: Julian vs. Gregorian [vs. Ionian vs. MixoLydian ...]
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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby yakkoTDI » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:00 pm UTC

April191774 wrote:In 1815 we took a little trip.....


Nice. We took one the year before.

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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby DonJaime » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:00 pm UTC

Maybe one of you USAians would be kind enough to tell us what in tarnation this is about. December 7th some year in the 1940s? Some president? What?
I don't think 'pedant' is really the right word.

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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby da Doctah » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:25 pm UTC

DonJaime wrote:Maybe one of you USAians would be kind enough to tell us what in tarnation this is about. December 7th some year in the 1940s? Some president? What?


A date which will live in Innisfree.

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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby Keyman » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:58 pm UTC

DonJaime wrote:Maybe one of you USAians would be kind enough to tell us what in tarnation this is about. December 7th some year in the 1940s? Some president? What?


President Franklin D. Roosevelt:
"Yesterday, December 7, 1941—a date which will live in infamy—the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan."
Nothing could be more ill-judged than that intolerant spirit which has, at all times, characterized political parties. - A. Hamilton

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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby KittenKaboodle » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:01 pm UTC

DonJaime wrote:Maybe one of you USAians would be kind enough to tell us what in tarnation this is about. December 7th some year in the 1940s? Some president? What?


My first thought for a hint was August 6th, (different year, but related) However, since you seem to be in Germany, how about May 8th, that is rather less directly related, but still could be a hint.

"It was a bright cold day in April"

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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby qvxb » Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:45 pm UTC

Obviously Randall doesn't listen to conservative talk radio.

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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby seat55a » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:50 am UTC

April191774 wrote:catchy rhyme?

April 19, 1775
Hardly a man is left alive
That remembers that famous date and year....


Your memory seems to have been on the other side of the dateline?
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow wrote:On the eighteenth of April, in Seventy-five;

This one does get me every April.

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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby SalSomer » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:05 am UTC

DonJaime wrote:Maybe one of you USAians would be kind enough to tell us what in tarnation this is about. December 7th some year in the 1940s? Some president? What?


I'm not a USAian but we learn about Pearl Harbor in school in Norway. You don't in Germany? I would have thought that would be fairly universal.

(That said, the focus on WW2 in the Pacific in Norwegian schools is fairly minimal. I would guess that goes for the rest of Europe as well. In my school the two things that were mentioned were Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima and Nagasaki)

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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:01 am UTC

SalSomer wrote:(In my school the two things that were mentioned were Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima and Nagasaki)

(/is tempted to make a Maths XOR Grammar comment. :mrgreen:)

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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby rhhardin » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:53 am UTC

In the year 1493 Columbus sailed the dark green sea.

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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby herbstschweigen » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:44 am UTC

SalSomer wrote:
DonJaime wrote:Maybe one of you USAians would be kind enough to tell us what in tarnation this is about. December 7th some year in the 1940s? Some president? What?


I'm not a USAian but we learn about Pearl Harbor in school in Norway. You don't in Germany? I would have thought that would be fairly universal.


My school history lessons during 7th-10th grade (1980s Germany) started in the Roman Empire and ended during Weimar Republic and Nazi era. I don't remember any mention of the pacific part of WWII. But I also hated history in school.

Talking about catchy rhymes, I only remember "753, Rom schlüpft aus dem Ei" (which is a legend, not a historic fact) and "333, bei Issos Keilerei" (and I don't remember who fought whom there, or why, and who won). But I have the impression that mnemonic rhymes are more prevalent in the US. Maybe someone has some examples for us non-USians?
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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby fluffysheap » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:34 pm UTC

April191774 wrote:April 19, 1775
Hardly a man is left alive
That remembers that famous date and year....


Who is killing everyone that remembers that date? What do they know?

In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue.

In the year 1492, Columbus got us a day off school.

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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby da Doctah » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:45 pm UTC

rhhardin wrote:In the year 1493 Columbus sailed the dark green sea.


And then, in fifteen hundred six,
Columbus crossed the River Styx.

(If, as seems unlikely, you ever need a way to remember when he died.)

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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:02 pm UTC

herbstschweigen wrote:But I have the impression that mnemonic rhymes are more prevalent in the US.

It might be more the Anglosphere,
That benefits from this trick, here.
Our language has such language roots,
It from the world of words recruits.
You need to rhyme the digit "Four",
And have matched endings all galore!
No matter what the style or scene,
From English you will surely glean,
A word to suit your need for verse,
Without a sentence too perverse.
(Though for the mind to hold the fact,
One might like oddness in your tract.
For what more useful as a clue,
Than one key rare word as meme-glue!)
And all that's said before I hammer
Home with all our twisted grammar!

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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby Keyman » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:12 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:
herbstschweigen wrote:But I have the impression that mnemonic rhymes are more prevalent in the US.

It might be more the Anglosphere,
That benefits from this trick, here.
Our language has such language roots,
It from the world of words recruits.
You need to rhyme the digit "Four",
And have matched endings all galore!
No matter what the style or scene,
From English you will surely glean,
A word to suit your need for verse,
Without a sentence too perverse.
(Though for the mind to hold the fact,
One might like oddness in your tract.
For what more useful as a clue,
Than one key rare word as meme-glue!)
And all that's said before I hammer
Home with all our twisted grammar!


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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:37 pm UTC

Yeah, a sane, well-designed language would have similar sounds attached to similar meanings (and vice versa).

English, having started as a way for Norman men-at-arms (French-speaking) to chat up Saxon barmaids (German-speaking) and cheerfully adopted large chunks of vocabulary from Latin and later Greek as the languages of learning, before going on to create a different pidgin in every colony, and bring all those scraps of language home to add to the stew (not forgetting the assorted older British tongues and cultures interacted with less violently), is not a sane, well-designed language, so it's much easier to find ways to rhyme unrelated meanings than it would be in such a tongue.

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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby cellocgw » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:55 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:
herbstschweigen wrote:But I have the impression that mnemonic rhymes are more prevalent in the US.

It might be more the Anglosphere,
That benefits from this trick, here.
Our language has such language roots,
It from the world of words recruits.
You need to rhyme the digit "Four",
And have matched endings all galore!
No matter what the style or scene,
From English you will surely glean,
A word to suit your need for verse,
Without a sentence too perverse.
(Though for the mind to hold the fact,
One might like oddness in your tract.
For what more useful as a clue,
Than one key rare word as meme-glue!)
And all that's said before I hammer
Home with all our twisted grammar!


No more rhyming, and I mean it!!
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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby restless » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:19 pm UTC

SalSomer wrote:
DonJaime wrote:Maybe one of you USAians would be kind enough to tell us what in tarnation this is about. December 7th some year in the 1940s? Some president? What?


I'm not a USAian but we learn about Pearl Harbor in school in Norway. You don't in Germany? I would have thought that would be fairly universal.

(That said, the focus on WW2 in the Pacific in Norwegian schools is fairly minimal. I would guess that goes for the rest of Europe as well. In my school the two things that were mentioned were Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima and Nagasaki)


It's the event that got the USA into the war, so it stands out for us. I'd think that, in Central Europe, September 1, 1939, would stand out more.

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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:32 pm UTC

seat55a wrote:
April191774 wrote:catchy rhyme?

April 19, 1775
Hardly a man is left alive
That remembers that famous date and year....


Your memory seems to have been on the other side of the dateline?
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow wrote:On the eighteenth of April, in Seventy-five;

This one does get me every April.

Longfellow wrote about Revere's ride, whereas April191774's rhyme was about the subsequent battle.

(I do wonder if the 1774 in the username was a typo...)
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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:08 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:Yeah, a sane, well-designed language would have similar sounds attached to similar meanings (and vice versa).

Why on Earth would those have to be features of a good language? Are there any such languages? Even among intentionally designed ones, it seems an unreasonable expectation.

English...is not a sane, well-designed language, so it's much easier to find ways to rhyme unrelated meanings than it would be in such a tongue.

On the contrary, it's much harder to rhyme things in English than in languages that have a more limited set of endings such as for conjugations and declensions. You can rhyme almost anything with almost anything else in, say, Italian.

However, I would also argue that it's the fact that you can't rhyme almost anything in English that makes it amenable to rhyming mnemonics. If too many words would rhyme, there's nothing that makes it particularly easy to remember which one should end the second line.
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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby colonel_hack » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:19 pm UTC

rhhardin wrote:In the year 1493 Columbus sailed the dark green sea.

In 1494 Columbus sailed to a distant shore.

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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:50 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:Yeah, a sane, well-designed language would have similar sounds attached to similar meanings (and vice versa).

English, having started as a way for Norman men-at-arms (French-speaking) to chat up Saxon barmaids (German-speaking) and cheerfully adopted large chunks of vocabulary from Latin and later Greek as the languages of learning, before going on to create a different pidgin in every colony, and bring all those scraps of language home to add to the stew (not forgetting the assorted older British tongues and cultures interacted with less violently), is not a sane, well-designed language, so it's much easier to find ways to rhyme unrelated meanings than it would be in such a tongue.


This reminds me of something I've always been curious about:

Tolkien has a bunch of conlangs for his fictional world, and though I haven't studied them much at all I've heard that making beautiful well-designed languages was the thing he sat down to do first, and then he wrote stories around the people who spoke those languages, so I would imagine that those languages in Middle-Earth are, as you say, sane.

Yet Tolkien wrote poetry in his various languages, which translates back into English and still fits the rhyme and meter.

What? How?
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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby Reka » Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:00 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
English...is not a sane, well-designed language, so it's much easier to find ways to rhyme unrelated meanings than it would be in such a tongue.

On the contrary, it's much harder to rhyme things in English than in languages that have a more limited set of endings such as for conjugations and declensions. You can rhyme almost anything with almost anything else in, say, Italian.

16th century Hungarian troubadour Tinódi Lantos Sebestyén wrote long history-songs where stanza after stanza ends every line with either vala (archaic Hungarian for "was") or -nak/-nek (either a verb conjugation particle that puts the verb in third person plural, or a preposition meaning roughly something like "for". The different vowels are for vowel harmony).

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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby jc » Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:22 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:
SalSomer wrote:(In my school the two things that were mentioned were Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima and Nagasaki)

(/is tempted to make a Maths XOR Grammar comment. :mrgreen:)

It's likely that "Hiroshima and Nagasaki" are joined together as a single, fixed phrase in a lot of people's minds.

OTOH, here in the US, we've been hearing complaints that a growing percentage of the younger generations don't recognize the phrase at all, and can't tell you where or what Hiroshima and Nagasaki might be. I've seen questions in a few forums asking if atomic weapons have ever been used to kill people. The discussions that follow do tend to settle on the sorry state of the American education system. But it is often pointed out that atrocities committed by one country's government tend to be better known outside the country than inside, for reasons that are fairly easy to figure out.

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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:34 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Yet Tolkien wrote poetry in his various languages, which translates back into English and still fits the rhyme and meter.

What? How?

I mean, dozens of people have translated Dante in terza rima, and that sort of thing is probably easier when it's your own words in both languages.
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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:35 pm UTC

jc wrote:
Soupspoon wrote:
SalSomer wrote:(In my school the two things that were mentioned were Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima and Nagasaki)

(/is tempted to make a Maths XOR Grammar comment. :mrgreen:)

It's likely that "Hiroshima and Nagasaki" are joined together as a single, fixed phrase in a lot of people's minds.

OTOH, here in the US, we've been hearing complaints that a growing percentage of the younger generations don't recognize the phrase at all, and can't tell you where or what Hiroshima and Nagasaki might be. I've seen questions in a few forums asking if atomic weapons have ever been used to kill people. The discussions that follow do tend to settle on the sorry state of the American education system. But it is often pointed out that atrocities committed by one country's government tend to be better known outside the country than inside, for reasons that are fairly easy to figure out.

Yeah, I've had Japanese students who literally had no idea what or when the attack on Pearl Harbor was.
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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:45 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:Yeah, a sane, well-designed language would have similar sounds attached to similar meanings (and vice versa).

Why on Earth would those have to be features of a good language? Are there any such languages? Even among intentionally designed ones, it seems an unreasonable expectation.


Because it means that you can guess at the meaning of an unfamiliar word if it sounds similar to a word you know. If related meanings aren't connected by related sounds, then you've only got context to go on when it comes to guessing the meaning of an unfamiliar word.

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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby DonJaime » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:24 pm UTC

Keyman wrote:President Franklin D. Roosevelt:
"Yesterday, December 7, 1941—a date which will live in infamy—the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan."


Thank-you, that kind of explains it. Except it's not particularly memorable and doesn't rhyme.

SalSomer wrote:I'm not a USAian but we learn about Pearl Harbor in school in Norway. You don't in Germany? I would have thought that would be fairly universal.


I went to school in England. History stopped in 1914. (Really.) I knew about Pearl Harbour from other sources, but not the exact date.
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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby DonJaime » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:32 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:Yeah, a sane, well-designed language would have similar sounds attached to similar meanings (and vice versa).


A well-designed language would do no such thing: it would be more likely for things you misheard to make sense in it, so you would lose a layer of error-correction.

English, having started as a way for Norman men-at-arms (French-speaking) to chat up Saxon barmaids (German-speaking)...


Please look it up. I'm too tired to explain all the ways that's wrong.
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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:27 pm UTC

DonJaime wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:Yeah, a sane, well-designed language would have similar sounds attached to similar meanings (and vice versa).


A well-designed language would do no such thing: it would be more likely for things you misheard to make sense in it, so you would lose a layer of error-correction.


But the thing you misheard would be close to the intended meaning, rather than being randomly unrelated. Hearing "Send backup. We're going to press." would be less of a problem than "Send three-and-fourpence. We're going to a dance."

You'd lose error-detection, but you'd gain a degree of error-correction.

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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:42 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:Yeah, a sane, well-designed language would have similar sounds attached to similar meanings (and vice versa).

Why on Earth would those have to be features of a good language? Are there any such languages? Even among intentionally designed ones, it seems an unreasonable expectation.

Because it means that you can guess at the meaning of an unfamiliar word if it sounds similar to a word you know. If related meanings aren't connected by related sounds, then you've only got context to go on when it comes to guessing the meaning of an unfamiliar word.

And yet context has somehow proved sufficient for every natural language and every conlang I'm aware of.

Plus there's the fact that English (and every other language with affixes) does have certain kinds of similar meanings that are carried by similar sounds. And stems in those languages also indicate something about the meaning. You can understand "unspammability" from its form and knowledge of the relevant meaning of "spam", even if you've never seen it in any kind of illustrative context before.

Even if one did want "similar meanings" to correspond to similar sounds, there's no general way to determine which meanings are similar. The diversity of ways things are categorized into grammatical genders in different languages proves that there's not anything objective about the ways people group "similar" things. Should "whale" have some similarity to "fish", or to "water", or to a cladistic superset of animals that also includes all the terrestrial ungulates? Speaking of the latter, how should new scientific discoveries in general be handled? Should the (common) name for something be changed when it's discovered that it doesn't belong to the same category as once believed?

rmsgrey wrote:
You'd lose error-detection, but you'd gain a degree of error-correction.

You still need to actually support that this is a worthwhile tradeoff.

Perhaps there's a reason 6000-odd extant languages don't do it the way you think would be better?
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Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:40 pm UTC

jc wrote:
Soupspoon wrote:
SalSomer wrote:(In my school the two things that were mentioned were Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima and Nagasaki)

(/is tempted to make a Maths XOR Grammar comment. :mrgreen:)

It's likely that "Hiroshima and Nagasaki" are joined together as a single, fixed phrase in a lot of people's minds.

I perfectly understood it that way. Personally I'd have written it differently (had I noticed that I'd started writing it that manner), such as "…two things that were mentioned were: 1) Pearl Harbour, 2) Hiroshima and Nagasaki." Or colon with semi-colon major-separator. Or hyphen-link "H-&-N" for emphasised wrapping as a unit. Or just ampersand that 'internal' conjunction as the subtlest of clues. To those without worries over Oxford Comma misinterpretations, "…were Pearl Harbor, and Hiroshima and Nagasaki" might have worked too. Or remove the number and let people assume their own count according to their own feeling on the matter.

But that's just a benefit of not having to work in a foreign language (and not being overly miseducated about my native one), and I set myself higher standards (to then fail, inevitably!) while hopefully not begrudging the person for whom a reversed situation would have me floundering even to tense their language's verbs correctly, if I even knew what verb(/noun/anything) to use.


TL;DR; - it just struck me as funny, in a no-fault 'found humour' way. :P



DonJaime wrote:
Keyman wrote:I went to school in England. History stopped in 1914. (Really.) I knew about Pearl Harbour from other sources, but not the exact date.
My father in his later years, for one reason or other, did a History-type course at nightschool where the end-date was stated as 1930. (This being taught two or maybe three decades ago? I can't quite work it out.) In his words, at the time: "…just when things were starting to get interesting."

Assuming you don't find the Corn Laws interesting. (Chosen as a random example of what he talked about. Maybe they are currently quite interesting, though?)

gbsteve1
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:06 am UTC

Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby gbsteve1 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:10 am UTC

Remember, remember,
The fifth of November,
Gunpowder treason and plot.
For I see no reason
Why gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot.

(There are several variants)

It's the day we Brits let off our fireworks in the memory of the only man to enter Parliament with honest intentions.

seat55a
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:46 am UTC

Re: 2084: "FDR"

Postby seat55a » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:15 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
seat55a wrote:
April191774 wrote:catchy rhyme?

April 19, 1775
Hardly a man is left alive
That remembers that famous date and year....


Your memory seems to have been on the other side of the dateline?
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow wrote:On the eighteenth of April, in Seventy-five;

This one does get me every April.

Longfellow wrote about Revere's ride, whereas April191774's rhyme was about the subsequent battle.

(I do wonder if the 1774 in the username was a typo...)

They may speak for theirself, but on its face the post is just a misquote of HWL. Perhaps they are an historian rather than a litterateur. The New Orleans one tends to confirm that hypothesis, as being similarly historically accurate but literally inaccurate.


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