Teachers being trained to kill kids

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Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Angua » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:06 pm UTC

Yes, I have gone for a click baity title, but this is literally what this school sounds like it's doing from the article:

Inside a US training course to arm teachers.

No de-escalation. The only passing criteria is being able to hit a human sized target, doesn't matter if you hit the right one.
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Thesh » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:37 pm UTC

Basically, they are taking concealed carry training and applying it to teachers. Americans are incapable of taking any action that would require admitting that there is something fundamentally wrong with our society.

May I also remind people that teaching is a very stressful job, and teachers sometimes snap?
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:08 am UTC

Arming teachers with guns after a 3 day crash course that emphasizes how every student is a potential murder-machine -- and they're wholly within their legal rights to kill them whenever they feel threatened -- is definitely the right move, here.

There is no possible way this could end badly. Nope! No way at all.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Angua » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:22 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Arming teachers with guns after a 3 day crash course that emphasizes how every student is a potential murder-machine -- and they're wholly within their legal rights to kill them whenever they feel threatened -- is definitely the right move, here.

I/m glad I'm not the only one reading this like that.
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Chen » Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:16 pm UTC

Thing is this isn’t new. Its been going on for over a decade at least now. This is another headline that makes a mountain out of a molehill in the same way people try to use mass shootings to reform gun laws. Like mass shootings the shock factor here is what gets people up in arms (teehee) but in reality anything good or bad that comes out of this is going to be miniscule compared to the real gun problem in the US.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:07 pm UTC

Chen wrote:Thing is this isn’t new. Its been going on for over a decade at least now. This is another headline that makes a mountain out of a molehill in the same way people try to use mass shootings to reform gun laws. Like mass shootings the shock factor here is what gets people up in arms (teehee) but in reality anything good or bad that comes out of this is going to be miniscule compared to the real gun problem in the US.
That's an inappropriate metaphor. Mass shootings are not molehills. You can criticize our lack of a calm, logical, measured response to them -- but the point of that metaphor is that molehills aren't actually a big deal. Mass shootings are a big deal.

Also, I dunno; I think arming teachers with guns, training them to kill students, and instructing them that it's okay to do so when they feel threatened is fucking deranged. I feel that way regardless of the gun control problem in the US. I don't even see it as relevant to the gun control problem in the US. I just don't think we ought to train teachers to kill our children.

But hey, what do I know? Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's totally reasonable that we've been doing this for over a decade. Maybe we ought to just mount .50 caliber sentry guns at the front of the classroom, point them at the students, and hand the teachers the remotes.

We could give them a crash course on how to deploy them appropriately. Might want to make it 4 days instead of 3, though. .50 caliber's a lot more responsibility, after all.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Chen » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:17 pm UTC

Mass shootings are basically nothing in terms of the real damage and problems firearm culture plays in the US. Particularly the big publicized school shootings. Arming teachers is also absurd, dont get me wrong. Its particularly absurd because school shootings are still ridiculously rare when you look at it on a per school basis. So you’re preparing someone for something that is probably never going to happen to them and raising the chance of them causing harm due to accidents or whatever. That said it seems that the rate of accidents with teachers carrying concealed weapons in classrooms is also very low (all the accidents I found in a cursory search were accidents during safety classes/demonstrations which is a separate issue).

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:26 pm UTC

Chen wrote:Mass shootings are basically nothing in terms of the real damage and problems firearm culture plays in the US.
Okay? Firearm culture is basically nothing in terms of the eventual heat death of the universe.

People are dead because of mass shootings. I'm saying you should consider that they have a pretty damn big impact on some of our lives before just waving them off as molehills in comparison to whatever ethical issue *you* happen to be concerned with.

I'm glad we agree that arming teachers is utterly ridiculous, at least.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby jewish_scientist » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:32 pm UTC

What really horrified me was that a teacher who shot 2 unarmed children before shooting the armed child actually passed. It just leaves me wondering what the goal of this training program actual is since it clearly is not protecting the victims.
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Angua » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:37 pm UTC

@Chen

So you see nothing wrong with a course that is aimed at teachers basically just telling them to fire when threatened? Or even not threatened, given the first scenario had the teacher killing two students who were running away from the gun fire.

If this 'training' has been going on for more than a decade, it still doesn't make it right.
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Chen » Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:20 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Okay? Firearm culture is basically nothing in terms of the eventual heat death of the universe.

People are dead because of mass shootings. I'm saying you should consider that they have a pretty damn big impact on some of our lives before just waving them off as molehills in comparison to whatever ethical issue *you* happen to be concerned with.


You are right in that the shootings themselves are impactful and tragedies in and of themselves. The amount of attention they get though massively distracts from the main problems. People focus on ideas and propose legislation (or at least talk about it) to solve these mass shootings when the solutions are not addressing the main gun culture issues. This training teachers thing is a good example. Perhaps worse is people using the mass shootings as reasons against some proposed firearms changes particularly because “they wouldn’t have prevented this shooting”.

Back to the topic of the “training”, it seems pretty pointless in addition to being stupid. I havent seen any articles about an armed teacher stopping a mass shooting nor of one harming students either intentionally or accidentally, as a result of something that this type of course is teaching.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby EdgarJPublius » Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:43 pm UTC

I'm sure this article is a dispassionate and comprehensive view of the course curriculum, surely nothing was left out or embellished to advance a particular narrative :roll:

Teachers in schools have been legally armed in many states for basically the entire history of America, and so far the predicted negative consequences have failed to accrue. I find it much more shocking how poorly funded most school systems are for things like basic supplies and staff salaries. These problems are having real, measurable negative effects and so far everyone seems content to ignore them because they don't look nearly so sexy on TV.
Both sides views on guns in the classroom are a sick sideshow.

jewish_scientist wrote:What really horrified me was that a teacher who shot 2 unarmed children before shooting the armed child actually passed. It just leaves me wondering what the goal of this training program actual is since it clearly is not protecting the victims.


Someone making a mistake, even a serious one, in an exercise during the course doesn't reflect their total experience in the course. Demanding perfection at every stage of training and practice is absurd.
Let alone how effectively this article annihilates any context that doesn't fit with the author's preferred bias.
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Mutex » Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:56 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:Teachers in schools have been legally armed in many states for basically the entire history of America, and so far the predicted negative consequences have failed to accrue.

How many teachers in the US carry a gun in school on a daily basis?

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Sableagle » Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:25 pm UTC

I think this course is a part of the larger problem with US gun culture.

Unless I missed something, the article said they got 3 scenarios, then only described 2, but to me it still seems like:
You are now carrying a gun. You are about to be in a situation where you have to shoot someone with it.


I know first aid situations should be taught on first aid courses and general teaching should be taught in general teaching courses and this is a "carrying a gun around with you and being prepared to use it" course but I think the course ought to have 20 scenarios, most of them no-shoot scenarios, like a scuffle, an argument over the offside rule, an allegation of shoplifting, a minor prang on the road, some arse taking upskirt photographs or whatever and a few of them being danger scenarios like an active shooter, a stabbing or a carjacking on the way from one scenario to the next to really throw the student shooters into the deep end of the adrenaline pool. I also think they should have borderline cases, where it looks like a danger scenario and can be turned into one, and look at how to avoid doing so rather than just saying "Good hits. You passed."

This also reminded me of this article:
Fighting the contagious fire phenomenon
Proving contagious fire exists through training

While running FBI Firearms Instructor schools to certify instructors for other agencies, I’d always included several target identification courses. The targets would either consist of typical geometric shapes and colors or would be a series of life-size face photographs of diverse individuals. Each target board would contain six to eight of the different, smaller targets. I would ensure the compilation and placement of the smaller targets on each target board were unique. Targets would be faced away from the shooters. Once in position, I would call out a description of the “shoot” target and face the targets for a few seconds. The Firearms Instructors were to shoot only the called target before it faced away. On command, they would then step to the right to a new target stand, and continue the drill for several rotations.

Consistently, in every class, officers would shoot at their target upon hearing others shoot, even when their particular target board did not contain the called target. When asked why they shot at a no-shoot target, the typical response was either, “I don’t know” or “Everyone else was shooting, so I thought I was supposed to be shooting too.”

Remember, this is a class of Firearms Instructors in a low-stress atmosphere (other than they wanted to get their certificates) - not a bunch of new recruits. I would also occasionally call out a non-existent target, and again, inevitably some in the class would fire. The number of instructors shooting at “no-shoot” targets was even greater when we did the night-firing exercises and they were required to use flashlights to see the targets. This indicates they trusted their partner’s judgment (or eyesight) better than their own.
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:00 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:I'm sure this article is a dispassionate and comprehensive view of the course curriculum, surely nothing was left out or embellished to advance a particular narrative :roll:

Teachers in schools have been legally armed in many states for basically the entire history of America, and so far the predicted negative consequences have failed to accrue. I find it much more shocking how poorly funded most school systems are for things like basic supplies and staff salaries. These problems are having real, measurable negative effects and so far everyone seems content to ignore them because they don't look nearly so sexy on TV.
Both sides views on guns in the classroom are a sick sideshow.
Yes, you're right; how silly of me. The side that's literally offering a three day course that involves arming teachers and training them to "safely" shoot and kill their students really is just the same as the side who thinks doing so is lunacy. They're pretty much equivalent positions when you get right down to it.

The *real* problem with teaching teachers to treat students as viable threats you must be armed against isn't the impact that has on teachers in regards to their students, or how it changes the dynamic in their relationship, reinforcing a culture that already treats students as dangerous animals to be controlled -- or even how it makes tragedy inevitable. It's that it's wasted budgeting. We could have used the money for those classes on extra notebooks! What were they thinking?!

I'm glad we could figure this out. After all, I wouldn't have liked to think strong gun control advocates and those who prefer a more measured approach could have found common ground, here. Then we might have risked agreeing on something. Whew; dodged that bullet (ha!).

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby EdgarJPublius » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:20 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:
EdgarJPublius wrote:Teachers in schools have been legally armed in many states for basically the entire history of America, and so far the predicted negative consequences have failed to accrue.

How many teachers in the US carry a gun in school on a daily basis?


There's no concrete data on that, and even schools that explicitly have 'armed teacher' programs are reasonably reluctant to disclose numbers. At a quick fermi-estimate, on the order of about 0.1% I'd guess.
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:50 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:There's no concrete data on that, and even schools that explicitly have 'armed teacher' programs are reasonably reluctant to disclose numbers.
It is, after all, reasonable for the state to be reluctant about disclosing how many teachers they've armed and trained to kill students.

It's reasonable to not tell me as a parent how likely it is the person teaching my child about polynomials has been armed and authorized by the state to kill my child if they perceive them as a threat.

This entire situation is very reasonable.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Sableagle » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:35 pm UTC

I think the logic is that if everyone knows which teacher has the gun that teacher gets shot first and the gun gets taken for use in the massacre, rather than being used to stop it.

They're still working on the assumption that the massacre's going to start no matter what, aren't they?

They could try making the classrooms card-and-code entry and bullet-resistant all round, but ...

https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states
https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/regi ... ed-kingdom
https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/italy

Guns_and_homicides.png


What are you doing all the way out there, all by yourselves?
I'm not saying you have to join Japan and South Korea. Look at Italy and Germany. Join them!

Guns_and_homicides_by_state.png


South Dakota appear to be your Italy. New Jersey appears to be ... well, New Jersey.
Illinois, Maryland and Louisiana are on the "What the hell are you doing?" side of that scattergraph, too.

Vertical scales are the same. Horizontal scales are necessarily different, because different data were used to make them.

I haven't checked, but I'm willing to guess right now that Italy doesn't have a lot of armed teachers in classrooms.
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:53 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:I think the logic is that if everyone knows which teacher has the gun that teacher gets shot first and the gun gets taken for use in the massacre, rather than being used to stop it.
Honestly, I'm less concerned with the actual physical presence of a gun in a classroom (well, okay, part of me is concerned over that? But as someone with a background in teaching, I mostly trust teachers to not shoot their students) and more with the sheer fucking insanity of a debate where "We ought to train our teachers to shoot at students!" isn't just an idea, but actual policy being implemented.

Ultimately, it's like banning nail-clippers from airplanes in the wake of 9/11: A symbolic action with very little real, concrete, measurable consequence. But unlike banning nail-clippers from airplanes, this symbolic act reinforces the narrative that we need to escalate; that the appropriate response to school shootings are more school shootings; that the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a bigger gun. Students are dangerous, and must be violently policed -- by the very teachers entrusted with helping them become well-balanced adults. This narrative makes connecting with your students that much harder. Which, consequently, makes it that much harder to reach out to students on the edge of snapping.

I highly doubt arming teachers with guns and training them to shoot students will put a dent in gun violence in schools (in either direction). But you know what it will do? Create an environment where people think arming teachers with guns and training them to shoot students is reasonable behavior.

And man, won't that be a fun society to live in?

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby EdgarJPublius » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:11 am UTC

Sableagle wrote:I think the logic is that if everyone knows which teacher has the gun that teacher gets shot first and the gun gets taken for use in the massacre, rather than being used to stop it.

They're still working on the assumption that the massacre's going to start no matter what, aren't they?

They could try making the classrooms card-and-code entry and bullet-resistant all round, but ...


I mean, that sounds to me like working on the assumption the massacre's going to start anyway too. Making the classroom bulletproof and access controlled is just another method of mitigation, not prevention.

I want to see increased funding for school counselors, and maybe even training programs so teachers can identify and handle students with mental health problems or other issues that need special care until they can be diverted to appropriate programs for their issues, which would require those programs to be created since mental healthcare and special education in this country is a wasteland.

But no, by all means, let's keep arguing over the disposition of inanimate fucking objects.

The Great Hippo wrote:I highly doubt arming teachers with guns and training them to shoot students will put a dent in gun violence in schools (in either direction). But you know what it will do? Create an environment where people think arming teachers with guns and training them to shoot students is reasonable behavior.

And man, won't that be a fun society to live in?


That may be the first thing you've said that I can kinda agree with
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:43 am UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:I want to see increased funding for school counselors, and maybe even training programs so teachers can identify and handle students with mental health problems or other issues that need special care until they can be diverted to appropriate programs for their issues, which would require those programs to be created since mental healthcare and special education in this country is a wasteland.
See; this is a reasonable position, and something I'd agree with -- and far away from your absurd stance that people who are opposed to training and arming teachers to shoot at students are just one half of a 'sick sideshow'.

I don't even see how this is a gun control debate. I don't give a fuck about gun control; it's not my pet issue. I don't have a position on it (I'm for it? I guess? I don't know that much about guns or the efficacy controlling them has; I have a vague intuition that gun violence in America has more to do with our obsession with violence than our obsession with guns, but whatever -- I just want the violence to stop).

But you don't need to be an advocate for gun control to understand why "let's arm our teachers with guns and train them to shoot students!" is stupid and repugnant. Acknowledging that it's stupid and repugnant doesn't invalidate anyone's position on gun control (on either side). Pointing out how it's stupid and repugnant (as this article does) does not play into an anti-gun narrative; it just points out that this is fucking stupid and fucking repugnant.

But for some reason, we can't seem to hold more than two thoughts in our head at once. We can't say: "Teachers shouldn't be armed and trained by the state to shoot at students" without somehow presuming it's part of some larger anti-gun agenda. You couldn't even read that article without rolling your eyes and immediately slotting it into your narrative: one where any criticism that intersects with someone holding a gun is part of an obsessive opposition to guns, and an article that opposes a policy of arming and training teachers to kill students is just one half of a 'sick sideshow'.

Maybe the author just thinks, y'know -- the state shouldn't be arming and training teachers to kill students? Just a thought.

ETA: Okay, I'm being really mean-spirited and aggressive about this, and for that I reluctantly apologize -- I understand and acknowledge that you and others are used to arguing from a defensive position (particularly in these forums, where the climate is prone to be extremely anti-gun). But come fucking on.

It's a three-day crash course that teaches teachers how to open fire in a classroom environment, and informs them when they are legally justified in doing so. Tell me: What extra bit of context do you think would make this be any less fucking deranged? In what world does this not sound like the plot of some scummy Orson-Scott-Card-meets-Robert-Heinlein fanfic wank-off material?

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby EdgarJPublius » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:59 am UTC

I'm not defending the arming of teachers. It's a pointless debate. We apparently both agree that it won't make much difference one way or the other, so what's the purpose in debating it? it's not an argument that will ever really solve anything, and only serves to distract from productive conversation about real issues and actual solutions.

That's the sideshow. And it's sick because it twists some of our (as a society) best impulses into tearing ourselves apart over pointless bullshit.
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:19 am UTC

EdgarJPublius, you responded to an article wherein teachers describe their deep discomfort with a policy that arms and trains them to shoot their own students by rolling your eyes and dismissing it as anti-gun propaganda.

You are the sideshow.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby EdgarJPublius » Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:44 am UTC

Are you saying it's not? And so what?
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:01 am UTC

Yes. I'm saying it's not anti-gun propaganda. It's just a goddamn news story.

But what do I know? Maybe you're right; maybe there really is a conspiracy by the British government to foist anti-gun propaganda on top of us. Lord knows the BBC is known for their rampant, frothing-at-the-mouth sensationalism in pursuit of ever-increasing ratings.

ETA: Also, you understand that it's not even relevant whether or not it's anti-gun propaganda, right? That it's still news, and news that's worth reporting? Or, what -- do you just think we shouldn't report anything that happens if there's some non-zero chance it could make gun-owners look bad?

I mean, we can do that. We'll just tell the world to stop reporting any story that involves the words "America" and "gun". Unless it's a happy story.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby EdgarJPublius » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:09 am UTC

It's hardly necessary to posit some far-fetched conspiracy or 'frothing' pursuit of ratings to ascribe an anti-gun bias to an arm of the British government.

RE: ETA
1. Stop putting words in my mouth.
2. What makes this 'worth reporting' but not all the other ways in which our education system is deficient that actually have a measurable impact?
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:24 am UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:It's hardly necessary to posit some far-fetched conspiracy or 'frothing' pursuit of ratings to ascribe an anti-gun bias to an arm of the British government.
So, because you ascribe an anti-gun bias to the BBC, this article is anti-gun propaganda? Do you have any sort of evidence or reason that this BBC anti-gun bias exists?

I don't even understand where this discussion is going. You're just dismissing this article as propaganda because you don't like what it says. You're not providing substantive criticism; you're just presuming that because it's critical of a policy that just happens to involve guns (a policy you agree is bad), it must be misleading.

Have you considered that maybe you have a pro-gun bias?
EdgarJPublius wrote:1. Stop putting words in my mouth.
2. What makes this 'worth reporting' but not all the other ways in which our education system is deficient that actually have a measurable impact?
Are you seriously throwing out the "but why haven't they reported on all the other bad stuff?!" defense, here? Because that's just a sloppy reskin of the "But what about all the starving people in <insert country here>?!" defense. And in this case, it doesn't even apply -- because yes, the BBC reports widely on problems with the American education system. A lot of times, they even manage to do it without mentioning the word 'gun'.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby EdgarJPublius » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:04 am UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:1. Stop putting words in my mouth.


edit: moved to new post
Last edited by EdgarJPublius on Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:40 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:37 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Do you have any sort of evidence or reason that this BBC anti-gun bias exists?
EdgarJPublius wrote:1. Stop putting words in my mouth.
I'll take that as a no.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby EdgarJPublius » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:41 am UTC

I haven't offered substantive criticism of the article because I don't care. The content of the article is immaterial to the argument I'm trying to make.

The sideshow isn't media advancing one position or another. The sideshow is that Republicans have taken a position that we must arm teachers and Democrats have taken the position that we must not, when neither policy has any measurable impact on anything. The BBC has published an article on this topic not because a class teaching school staff about guns is in-itself newsworthy, or to advance any particular agenda, but because this is the hill that Republicans and Democrats, who together control the United States Government, have chosen to stand or die on. This article is merely a symptom of the issue, not the issue itself.
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I wrote:Does Space Teddy Roosevelt wrestle Space Bears and fight the Space Spanish-American War with his band of Space-volunteers the Space Rough Riders?

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby K.Sharon » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:44 am UTC

Such a Bandaid approach to manage an in reality fatal turned. For all of the instructors and supervisors who need guns to watch their schools, we should start by finishing an unrivaled work of demonstrating US history, including the flexibility of our living, guiding record to be always adjusted for new, present substances. Would we have such freed access to guns if a sizable degree of our people deceived itself into believing that owning a weapon is what could be contrasted with joining the Super-Ultra-Uber-Patriot Club? Show one of a kind settings and test whether those settings still exist? By virtue of the 2A, nothing stays, past a contaminated type of affirmation against persecution to legitimize its nonappearance of cancelation. Unusually, the closest thing to persecution we have lies when the weapon waiting room and government work indistinguishably to trade off the prosperity of each other individual.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:47 am UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:The BBC has published an article on this topic not because a class teaching school staff about guns is in-itself newsworthy, or to advance any particular agenda, but because this is the hill that Republicans and Democrats, who together control the United States Government, have chosen to stand or die on.
No -- the BBC published this article because they're a news organization that reports on the news. A journalist who works there thought it was news-worthy that teachers were being armed and trained to shoot their students. So they did a story on it.

The BBC is not beholden to whatever hill Republicans and Democrats have decided to die on this week. They are beholden to reporting things they think are news-worthy. They thought this was news-worthy. The greater context in American politics is irrelevant; this news story wasn't even written with US consumption in mind.

It's not some 'symptom' of an 'issue'. It's just a news article, dude.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby idonno » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:11 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:The sideshow is that Republicans have taken a position that we must arm teachers and Democrats have taken the position that we must not, when neither policy has any measurable impact on anything.

You don't know that. Data from areas where teachers have already been able to bring guns in is not even going to be comparable to actively pushing for teachers to be armed to "protect the children". The current data set would have a substantial selection bias if it wasn't for the fact that it doesn't even exist.

If this is really an issue and you really need armed personnel for protection, the right course of action is to hire professionals who have the responsibility of taking out shooters and to forbid them from being used for any other sort of enforcement but I doubt it is a big enough problem to actually find a budget to protect the children.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby jewish_scientist » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:54 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:Teachers in schools have been legally armed in many states for basically the entire history of America,

Citation needed.

EdgarJPublius wrote:
jewish_scientist wrote:What really horrified me was that a teacher who shot 2 unarmed children before shooting the armed child actually passed. It just leaves me wondering what the goal of this training program actual is since it clearly is not protecting the victims.


Someone making a mistake, even a serious one, in an exercise during the course doesn't reflect their total experience in the course. Demanding perfection at every stage of training and practice is absurd.

If someone got did perfectly on every aspect of the course with the exception that they had 87% accuracy on the shooting range, then I think that they should pass. If someone got did perfectly on every aspect of the course with the exception that they killed 2 innocent children in the practice scenario, I think that they should fail. When counting how many errors someone makes, you cannot ignore the fact that some errors have a greater magnitude than others.

EdgarJPublius wrote:I haven't offered substantive criticism of the article because I don't care. The content of the article is immaterial to the argument I'm trying to make.

I think you may be on the wrong thread then.
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby EdgarJPublius » Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:50 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:
EdgarJPublius wrote:Teachers in schools have been legally armed in many states for basically the entire history of America,

Citation needed.


Most states didn't even implement laws prohibiting guns in schools until the 80's or so. Before that there was a patchwork of local laws and I haven't been able to find any kind of comprehensive overview. The laws I'm specifically aware of typically allowed school administration to authorize individuals to carry, though how commonly such authorizations are actually granted is basically impossible to tell.

jewish_scientist wrote:
EdgarJPublius wrote:
jewish_scientist wrote:What really horrified me was that a teacher who shot 2 unarmed children before shooting the armed child actually passed. It just leaves me wondering what the goal of this training program actual is since it clearly is not protecting the victims.


Someone making a mistake, even a serious one, in an exercise during the course doesn't reflect their total experience in the course. Demanding perfection at every stage of training and practice is absurd.

If someone got did perfectly on every aspect of the course with the exception that they had 87% accuracy on the shooting range, then I think that they should pass. If someone got did perfectly on every aspect of the course with the exception that they killed 2 innocent children in the practice scenario, I think that they should fail. When counting how many errors someone makes, you cannot ignore the fact that some errors have a greater magnitude than others.


That makes sense as criteria for a final evaluation, but you don't flunk someone out of a class because they failed a practice test. That's part of why I rolled my eyes at the article's supposed lack of bias. We get no information about what transpired between this exercise and the teacher passing other than 'a few hours passed' how many hours, and what happened during them? It's very likely that after the scenario was run, there was a class discussion about what mistakes were made, why, and how to avoid them, and then everyone would have been allowed to run the scenario again, implementing the lessons learned. Unless the whole class was three hours long, during which two scenarios were run followed by a final accuracy test, this article is leaving out a lot of important context. I know in Texas the class teachers take to be able to carry in schools is something like 80 hours long.

jewish_scientist wrote:
EdgarJPublius wrote:I haven't offered substantive criticism of the article because I don't care. The content of the article is immaterial to the argument I'm trying to make.

I think you may be on the wrong thread then.


That's fair.
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I wrote:Does Space Teddy Roosevelt wrestle Space Bears and fight the Space Spanish-American War with his band of Space-volunteers the Space Rough Riders?

Yes.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby jewish_scientist » Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:52 am UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:
jewish_scientist wrote:
EdgarJPublius wrote:Teachers in schools have been legally armed in many states for basically the entire history of America, [and so far the predicted negative consequences have failed to accrue.]

Citation needed.


Most states didn't even implement laws prohibiting guns in schools until the 80's or so. Before that there was a patchwork of local laws and I haven't been able to find any kind of comprehensive overview. The laws I'm specifically aware of typically allowed school administration to authorize individuals to carry, though how commonly such authorizations are actually granted is basically impossible to tell.

1: For the majority of US history teachers have carried guns in the classroom.
2: For the majority of US history it has been legal for a teacher to carry a gun in the classroom.
3: For the majority of US history teachers have legally carried guns in the classroom.

Iff statements 1 and 2 are true, then statement 3 is true. You used statement 3 as evidence for your position, provided evidence for statement 2, and admitted that evidence for statement 1 does not exist. Unless I am misunderstanding, it seams that you have contradicted yourself.


I'm sure this article is a dispassionate and comprehensive view of the course curriculum, surely nothing was left out or embellished to advance a particular narrative :roll:

We get no information about what transpired between this exercise and the teacher passing other than 'a few hours passed' how many hours, and what happened during them?

You are correct in that information was left out of the article. However, you asserted that the information was left our of the article because such information would provide support for the position taken contrary to that taken by the author/ publisher. An alternative explanation for the missing information is that the article would have been longer than the author/ publisher wanted is all the information was included. The latter happens for all news articles given the very nature of the genre. Why should the former in addition to the latter be accepted as reasons for why information was not included.

Now for an counterargument that uses much less formal logic; you are asserting that there exists training that lasts for a few hours that can turn a person who panics under the stress of a simulated school shooting into a person who does not panic under the stress of a school shooting. Do you have evidence to back this assertion up?
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby ucim » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:13 am UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:1: For the majority of US history teachers have carried guns in the classroom.
2: For the majority of US history it has been legal for a teacher to carry a gun in the classroom.
3: For the majority of US history teachers have legally carried guns in the classroom.

Iff statements 1 and 2 are true, then statement 3 is true.
This is actually not true. Just looking at the forward implication, (1) and (2) could involve a different subset of time, leaving only a minority of time in which (1) and (2) were both true at the same time (which is what's required for (3). I'll leave the reverse implication as an exercise to the reader.

Even plain logic can be tricky, and involve unstated assumptions (2: for the same majority of US history...) Add incomplete reporting (isn't all reporting incomplete?), a controversial subject, the spectre of opinionated editing (not saying that's what occurred, but it's possible), opinionated reporting of that article, and the lack of context that most readers bring to it due to their ignorance of what a gun use (and safety?) course is and isn't, and it's even trickier. And I'm not even getting into the differing culture and civilization that existed in the US in the 1800s (say) and 2018, and whether the changes are good, bad, or irrelevant.

Syllogisms are useful, but their limitations must be understood.

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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby EdgarJPublius » Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:25 am UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:
EdgarJPublius wrote:
jewish_scientist wrote:
EdgarJPublius wrote:Teachers in schools have been legally armed in many states for basically the entire history of America, [and so far the predicted negative consequences have failed to accrue.]

Citation needed.


Most states didn't even implement laws prohibiting guns in schools until the 80's or so. Before that there was a patchwork of local laws and I haven't been able to find any kind of comprehensive overview. The laws I'm specifically aware of typically allowed school administration to authorize individuals to carry, though how commonly such authorizations are actually granted is basically impossible to tell.

1: For the majority of US history teachers have carried guns in the classroom.
2: For the majority of US history it has been legal for a teacher to carry a gun in the classroom.
3: For the majority of US history teachers have legally carried guns in the classroom.

Iff statements 1 and 2 are true, then statement 3 is true. You used statement 3 as evidence for your position, provided evidence for statement 2, and admitted that evidence for statement 1 does not exist. Unless I am misunderstanding, it seams that you have contradicted yourself.


Dubious logical assertions aside, let's say that for most of American history, until relatively recently, it was legal for teachers to carry guns in the classroom and negative consequences failed to accrue during that period. On what basis do you predict negative consequences as a result of allowing teachers to carry now, with increased restrictions and training requirements?

I'm sure this article is a dispassionate and comprehensive view of the course curriculum, surely nothing was left out or embellished to advance a particular narrative :roll:

We get no information about what transpired between this exercise and the teacher passing other than 'a few hours passed' how many hours, and what happened during them?

You are correct in that information was left out of the article. However, you asserted that the information was left our of the article because such information would provide support for the position taken contrary to that taken by the author/ publisher. An alternative explanation for the missing information is that the article would have been longer than the author/ publisher wanted is all the information was included. The latter happens for all news articles given the very nature of the genre. Why should the former in addition to the latter be accepted as reasons for why information was not included.


it's extremely difficult to prove intent, especially when talking about the absence of things, and doubly so when the things that are absent are details.
However, let me see if I can fill in some of the blanks, and we'll see what it looks like.

I notice the article doesn't mention the name of the particular training program being covered, however, the accompanying video segment makes it clear this is FASTER.
The article doesn't mention the length of the course: the FASTER level one certification course is ~25 hours over three days, the FASTER program also offers level two and three certifications with additional 24 and 16 hour courses.
The article limits it's description of the course curriculum to two scenario based training exercises and the accuracy test: FASTER level one training includes a variety of scenarios focusing on different aspects of active shooter situations, as well as decision making skills with firearms and live fire drills with shoot/no shoot targets, emergency first aid and various topics covered in a classroom setting.
The Article states that the only requirement for certification is the final accuracy test: the FASTER curriculum available from their website includes an 'Overall evaluation by trainers' after the accuracy test before final certification.

Now for an counterargument that uses much less formal logic; you are asserting that there exists training that lasts for a few hours that can turn a person who panics under the stress of a simulated school shooting into a person who does not panic under the stress of a school shooting. Do you have evidence to back this assertion up?


Well, 'a few hours' in this case is more than 25 hours over three days, and it's never stated that the teacher in question 'panicked' they might have misidentified the students as threats, or made some other mistake correctable with minimal additional training.

That said, you won't often see me advocate for less training. There's gotta be a balance, but I'm no more convinced that 25 hours is a good compromise than I am that 80 hours for the program Texas uses is. And I do have my own issues with the FASTER program.
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby jewish_scientist » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:24 pm UTC

ucim, thank you for the correction. I will try to be more precise next time.

EdgarJPublius wrote:[Insert a bunch of nested quotes here]

Dubious logical assertions aside, let's say that for most of American history, until relatively recently, it was legal for teachers to carry guns in the classroom and negative consequences failed to accrue during that period.

In Massachusetts, it is legal to drive under 5mph with passengers in the flatbed of a truck. From this information you cannot derive if people do drive in such a way. Just because an action is legal does not mean that people preformed that action.

I notice the article doesn't mention the name of the particular training program being covered, however, the accompanying video segment makes it clear this is FASTER.
The article doesn't mention the length of the course: the FASTER level one certification course is ~25 hours over three days, the FASTER program also offers level two and three certifications with additional 24 and 16 hour courses.

The video included in the article does name the FASTER program and says that the training lasts for 3 days.

The Article states that the only requirement for certification is the final accuracy test: the FASTER curriculum available from their website includes an 'Overall evaluation by trainers' after the accuracy test before final certification.

I looked at the website and could not find a copy of the curriculum. Can you post a link to it, please?

Now for an counterargument that uses much less formal logic; you are asserting that there exists training that lasts for a few hours that can turn a person who panics under the stress of a simulated school shooting into a person who does not panic under the stress of a school shooting. Do you have evidence to back this assertion up?

Well, 'a few hours' in this case is more than 25 hours over three days, and it's never stated that the teacher in question 'panicked' they might have misidentified the students as threats, or made some other mistake correctable with minimal additional training.

The part I underlined is what I have a major issue with. If the program runs for 8 hours a day and that teacher passed that course on the same day that the scenario happened, then only 9 hours of training were available to correct whatever problem caused the teacher to kill two students. I highly doubt that such a feat is possible.
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Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby cphite » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:22 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:
Well, 'a few hours' in this case is more than 25 hours over three days, and it's never stated that the teacher in question 'panicked' they might have misidentified the students as threats, or made some other mistake correctable with minimal additional training.

The part I underlined is what I have a major issue with. If the program runs for 8 hours a day and that teacher passed that course on the same day that the scenario happened, then only 9 hours of training were available to correct whatever problem caused the teacher to kill two students. I highly doubt that such a feat is possible.


These courses are intended to give people exposure to making a split-second decision under stress, in the hopes that they will be better at making those decisions when it actually matters. You can point out when they've made the wrong choice and let them try again, but at the end of the day there really isn't any way to "correct" the fact that humans sometimes make bad choices under high stress. The best you can hope for is that, because they've experienced the situation in practice, they stand a better chance of acting appropriately in a real situation.

Based on my own experience with these programs, three days may not sound like much but it's definitely better than zero days.


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