Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

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Znirk
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby Znirk » Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:50 am UTC

Gopher of Pern wrote:
Znirk wrote:Actually, let me double down on claims-that-may-help-town: My role PM explicitly offers me a false character claim. I am Red Vex (or the Red Vex, or possibly even a Red Vex; still don't exactly understand the details here), some sort of undead being out for personal revenge. However the PM implies I could claim to be my twin sister and exact lookalike, the Rogue. Maybe other roles of the more demonic persuasion have a similar offer baked in?


So....you have an explicit false character claim, but decide not to use it? Are you not worried about a lyncher or something? A false character claim is there for a reason.


Wasn't so much a choice, actually. The bit in the pm wasn't very explicit, and I first read it as A possible hint to either a secret lyncher target or a sibling mechanic. Dimochka then volunteered a clarification, but by that time I had already said in thread that my role wasn't in flavour text out people's lists of possible roles.

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby adnapemit » Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:51 am UTC

ahippo:
Claims Griswold, blacksmith but is keeping power secret. He doubts there is anyone with a win condition of killing him. He says that he claimed to generate discussion. This appears to have been effective. No counter-claims but based on Znirk having a false claim given I don't expect any. I don't know if his reason for claiming his role name was to create discussion or to send a message to another player. Neutral but I'll be watching them carefully.

bessie:
Thinks set-up is likely 9/3/1/1/1 (one Mafia supporter).
Thinks of indie as someone to lynch if no other candidate and would prefer not to have Znirk still around d5. Thinks townies are likely to over claim to avoid lynch. A lot of her posts were set-up discussion as expected from early game. I didn't see anything that looked scummy in her posts. Neutral.


Carlington:
As GoP pointed out he says "my set-up need to be" which is an odd way to phrase it but also only includes 14 players for his set-up.
4 scum was consistent in both of his options. His mention of survivor because too many anti-town can harm Mafia's chances is also a bit strange. I think he might have a kill ability but there is a small chance he is a vigilante. Slightly scummy.

freezeblade:
Suggests scum is players possessed by evil.Thinks 75% chance of recruit and 10-3-1-1 a likely set-up. Slight IGMEOY on Znirk and Sabrar. Another person who I don't see anything that stands out as scummy. Neutral

Gopher of Pern:
Thinks cult possible, jester possible, doesn't consider indie a faction and doesn't like early claims. He is ok with lynching Znirk but currently in favour of ignoring. Sabrar is a lynch candidate for him because they are misconstruing posts but also suggest freezeblade because unlucky with random assignment. I don't see Sabrar misconstruing but just doing what he usually does; lots of posts/questions/comments which caused a lot of defensive responses from Gopher of Pern. Very slightly scummy.

jimbobmacdoodle:
Doesn't think cult but other alignment changing role possible.Thinks ahippo might be Mafia supporter and Znirk unlikely survivor as he didn't claim so.
Thinks scum has false claims (After Znirks claim of false claim I also think likely). Doesn't see cult hunting as possible unless someone has information but then asks not to reveal unless worthwhile. I wouldn't mind if jimbob explained this more. What counts as worthwhile? It someone's role says there is a cult but not how to find them, would you rather them not mention it?
Starts off suspicious of Madges claim then reconsiders. Reconsidering is sometimes townie but then sometimes it is scum changing their mind because everyone else thought differently. Slightly scummy.

JustDanceUnlimited:
New to forum. Not much to go on. Neutral.

LaserGuy:
New to Mafia so doesn't comment on set-up spec. Thinks ahippo is scum with clever plot or trying to draw NK. He points out survivor wouldn't need false claim and believes what Znirk claimed is truthful. Also lyncher seems like Znirk's most likely role.
Leaning towards voting Znirk for lack of options after going through alternative actions. Something about his posts feels townie.

Madge:
Claims miller, specifically demon. No reads or voting d1. I think she is likely to be town but there is still a good possibility she is false claiming so closer to neutral.

mpolo:
Thinks good chance of cult, 5-6 anti town/indie (less if cult) and 1/3 anti town is common. He gave readings on 6 players(And Gopher which he didn't specify town/scum/neutral) which was mostly neutral or town. I would like readings. Currently neutral but would like to see more content.

plytho:
New, quite active. Znirk as lynch candidate and prefer jester to town lynch.
His posts seem quite townie.

Sabrar:
Points out jester removes lynch opportunity.
He has quoted a lot of people and made very basic comments. I feel like most of his post are more active lurking. I agree with some of his comments about Gopher of Pern but a lot of his other post feel low in content.
Slightly scummy.

Sabrar wrote:
adnapemit wrote:I don't believe that lynching an indie is better than trying to lynch scum. If they aren't anti town then we lose a chance to lynch a threat and scum get a kill. Znirk however is currently a good lynch candidate because claiming indie early tells scum that they are not town and don't need to be a target. To me Znirk is either jester, anti-town indie or scum pretending to be indie. I would rather lynching scum than a jester.
I do not agree with your reasoning, it is possible from Znirk's pov that the best play for him is to let scum know he is not a threat (e.g. Survivor). That doesn't make him anti-town and assuming he is telling the truth then he provides basically the same amount of information to both town and scum (i.e. similar to how scum don't need to kill him, the same way Cop doesn't need to investigate him, Doc doesn't need to protect him, etc).
Also if I'm reading it correctly he basically promised to help us against scum and I would assume he can prove this later.

It might be a good idea from Znirks POV but it doesn't help town. He could still be lying. Town now know not to waste time protecting him but we can't fully confirm he is really what he says without investigating/lynching, for us he could still be scum. But if he is telling the truth then he becomes one less target for scum because they know he isn't one of them and they have a better chance of killing town.

SirGabriel:
A few short posts but then a good reads list. There is good justification for those who he finds scummy but for those he finds townie it is mostly summarising their opinions. Neutral to maybe townie. @SirGabriel: can you expand on why you find bessie townie, why you believe Madge?

Znirk:
Also not comfortable commenting on set-up but claims independent and more useful to town and because of this chooses to side with town. Claims Red Vex and has false claim of twin and look-alike of the Rouge. See my previous comments on why I think he is anti-town or scummy.

<Town>
adnapemit
LaserGuy
plytho
Madge
SirGabriel
freezeblade
bessie
JustDanceUnlimited
mpolo
ahippo
Gopher of Pern
Sabrar
Znirk
Carlington
jimbobmacdoodle
<Scum>
Empress adnapemit "Nancy" "Time Panda"
[adnapemit|timepanda]
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Znirk
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby Znirk » Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:00 am UTC

Madge wrote:I hate D1 but if you're an indie and you're not going to put your cards on the table to help us out, then you suck. You're distracting us and you're causing us to go down potential blind alley and mislynch (if you're pro-town). If you're anti-town, then, well, you suck for being anti town. I don't know what you're up to, but I'm going to try and stop you unless you come cl.ean.

Vote: Znirk

Can you clarify how I'm not putting cards on the table? You seem very hard to please here - after all the reason you're able to single me out at all is precisely because I have put cards on the table

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby mpolo » Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:13 am UTC

I haven't really got much new from skimming here.

Looking at claims:
I think that Znirk is probably being truthful about most of his revelations. I.e. he is independent, he is Red Vex, he has a "personal revenge" flavor. I question how lyncher would fit with "can't win before town or scum", unless he is a lyncher/survivor, which is entirely possible. Maybe he only needs the person dead, and not explicitly lynched. A short search finds no information about the supposed false claim, which is kind of weird. He hasn't really tried to push a lynch, but there's only one character with a name claim out there. From the wiki, I don't see any particular person that Red Vex would be after. There is enough uncertainty here that he could be a lynch choice if we don't find something overtly scummier.

Madge is probably a miller.

ahippo claims the blacksmith without power claim, which makes it fairly empty of meaning for this game with randomized alignments.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby Madge » Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:07 am UTC

Znirk wrote:
Madge wrote:I hate D1 but if you're an indie and you're not going to put your cards on the table to help us out, then you suck. You're distracting us and you're causing us to go down potential blind alley and mislynch (if you're pro-town). If you're anti-town, then, well, you suck for being anti town. I don't know what you're up to, but I'm going to try and stop you unless you come cl.ean.

Vote: Znirk

Can you clarify how I'm not putting cards on the table? You seem very hard to please here - after all the reason you're able to single me out at all is precisely because I have put cards on the table


If you're indy and claiming on D1, as far as I'm concerned, you need a detailed claim including your wincon and power/s. Or a vague but reasonable hint to the same that will satisfy us you've nothing to hide.

Otherwise you are a selfish indie who isn't being helpful to town, which is your prerogative but I'd much rather not have to screw around with everyone getting distracted by you, especially on D1 when we are often down a blind alley anyway. So in the meantime we're not mislynching town D1. If you live to D2 then I'm not so concerned about your continued survival since we'll hopefully have something to sink our teeth into vis-a-vis scum and you won't be a priority.

Basically: in general mafia games if you're an indy, here's your options:

1) come clean, explain your wincon, powers, and exactly how you're going to help town (bonus points: hint to scum that you're OK with working with them if convenient, that way they'll rather NK townies than you - but TBH they're probably going to NK townies rather than indies regardless because they're scum and that's how they roll)

2) be quiet and play town until claiming time comes around (maybe breadcrumb so you don't look like scum trying to save its butt later on)

3) come semi-clean, give vague wincon, vague powers, and hope town doesn't want to string you up in exchange for your help / information / bigger fish to fry

You're not being helpful enough to us to count under 3) yet. You could have shut up and kept us un-distracted. But you didn't so that kind of sucks. You're not even giving us confidence that your win-con is compatible with town or that your power is useful to town. You're using weasel words. It sounds like you don't want scum to kill you for whatever reason.

Good news: given I'm a miller we have a cop. That's something to look forward to in the next few Days, at least...
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby Gopher of Pern » Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:03 am UTC

Vote: Sabrar

This might become a standard thing.

How am I not scumhunting, compared to people who whinge about "Oh it's Day 1, I have no reads." You are consistently trying to pin something on me, constantly mixing things up. I found you doing similar things last game, and you were scum then. I believe you are scum now.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby Sabrar » Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:33 am UTC

@Gopher of Pern: please provide detailed examples of how my opinions on your content could be seen as 'misconstruing your words' and how it differs from any other such reads made so far in this game. Because right now you're making vague statements without providing anything concrete.
Do you also consider plytho scummy and 'misconstruing your words' because he agreed with me here?

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby SirGabriel » Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:30 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:@SirGabriel: WTF? Did you read my (spoilered) read-list where I talk about Madge's claim and what the implication is in case she's lying?

Sorry, somehow I managed to completely miss that spoiler. After taking the spoilered reads list into account, my read on Sabrar has changed to neutral.

adnapemit wrote:@SirGabriel: can you expand on why you find bessie townie, why you believe Madge?

Since I don't have much content from Madge to base my read on, it's mainly due to what others have said about false miller claims being rare. My read on bessie is just a gut feeling, I don't have any real evidence to support it at this point.

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby Sabrar » Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:25 pm UTC

adnapemit wrote:I don't believe that lynching an indie is better than trying to lynch scum. If they aren't anti town then we lose a chance to lynch a threat and scum get a kill. Znirk however is currently a good lynch candidate because claiming indie early tells scum that they are not town and don't need to be a target. To me Znirk is either jester, anti-town indie or scum pretending to be indie. I would rather lynching scum than a jester.
adnapemit wrote:It might be a good idea from Znirks POV but it doesn't help town. He could still be lying. Town now know not to waste time protecting him but we can't fully confirm he is really what he says without investigating/lynching, for us he could still be scum. But if he is telling the truth then he becomes one less target for scum because they know he isn't one of them and they have a better chance of killing town.
In your first analysis you seem to be sure that Znirk is anti-town because of his role and that's what I commented upon. In the second you seem to say that if he's truthful then he's behaving in an anti-town way which is more understandable.

On another note I would appreciate if you could point out which comments you find to be active lurking and why you think I have only provided 'basic' comment.

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby ahippo » Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:28 pm UTC

Been away for a couple days. Catching up now. I'll have a real post down before I leave work today. After that I won't be able to post until Sunday afternoon. I forgot how many posts fifteen people would make!

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby bessie » Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:03 pm UTC

I’m here. I’m still working on page 3 content.
LaserGuy wrote:Survivor seems really doubtful to me. Why would a survivor need a false claim from flavor?
I’m wondering why anyone needs a false claim at all. It doesn’t fit with the way the mod claims he set up the game. I’ve been thinking about how this would work with Znirk’s claims. Now suppose the RNG matched Rogue (role) to Lyncher-with-a-random-target (alignment). Then after the match dimochka could have written the character’s back story and created the safe claim (you’re Red Vex, but you still look like your pre-possessed self, the Rogue). Or maybe every character already had a potential secret demon role written because there is a cult. OK, this line of thought didn’t end up where I thought it would and I need to think about it more.

plytho wrote:I know that's not much to go on. I'm definitely not very confident in my reads. This is mostly me trying to figure out the game without lurking.
That’s what we’re all trying to do D1. I would find it more suspicious if you were too confident in your reads. That would make me suspect you already know who is town and who is scum.

Sabrar wrote:bessie: mostly setup-spec, there is one thing I'm curious about:
bessie wrote:I had considered that players may not know they are possessed/demons/whatever scum naming works with the flavor. So it looks like scum knows they’re scum.
Did you really think that a newbie-friendly game would contain hidden win-conditions to the effect that scum doesn't know they are the bad guys?
I start a game open to all possibilities, and discard as I go along (usually quickly in the beginning). Yes, I considered the possibility that there is a pool of characters that think they’re town but are recruitable by scum, and I think a clever mod could make this work in a newbie friendly game. I think this is less likely if we have a miller, because having miller/godfather and characters-that-don’t-know-their-alignment would make this too complex to qualify as newbie friendly.

I’m working on my reads list, and I’m still only through page 3. But I’m going to post content as I have it because we’re less than two days from deadline.

Lurkers, you need to post something! It seems like I post a variant of my standard lurker discourse in almost every game, but I'm going to do it again anyway. The problem with lurkers is that you don’t know why they’re lurking. Sometimes real life gets in the way. I (and most others) tend to be very accepting when someone uses the real-life-issues excuse. I’ve used that excuse myself, and it's been true. Another reason to lurk is that they’re scum and are posting just enough to make it through the day alive (this is a discussion that will most likely come up again and again, probably in this game, so I’ll leave it for now). A third reason why players lurk is that they’re town but lurking is just part of their meta. The point is that lurkers are dangerous to town, because you don’t know which of the above three reasons is the reason they’re lurking, and if a town lurker makes it to endgame against a scum with great content, it’s very possible player #3 in the gunfight will choose wrong. Also, to be honest, if you’re not going to contribute to the game, you really aren’t worth keeping around.

I want to add that if you wait until a couple of hours before deadline to post the bulk of your content, you’re doing it wrong. There won’t be time for everyone to respond.

Sorry for the erratic content. More in a little while. I have a real life excuse.

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby ahippo » Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:18 am UTC

Sorry folks. Real life is getting in the way just a little too much right now. I request a replacement. Do we have one on standby?

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby dimochka » Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:52 am UTC

ahippo wrote:Sorry folks. Real life is getting in the way just a little too much right now. I request a replacement. Do we have one on standby?

I messaged our one potential replacement, and will otherwise try to get someone else from the forum. If no replacement is found by the beginning of D2, I will have to modkill.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby bessie » Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:55 am UTC

Here's my not best ever reads list, but I'm not sure if I'll have time tomorrow to make a significant improvement so posting what I have.

adnapemit- Ok with Madge, ahippo, Znirk claims and gives reasons. Provided reads and a town-scum list cuz she knows I like ordered lists. Interesting read on Carlington, I’ll be impressed if she got that right with so little to go on.

ahippo- Claimed Griswold and gave the following reason.
ahippo wrote:But ultimately, the primary complaint about my play last game was that I barely added anything worth discussing.
I hope you don’t believe that. Your content was fine; the complaint was that there just wasn’t enough of it on D1! As I said before, I would be happy to discuss mafia theory with you, as long as it’s not at the expense of a game (start a discussion in the meta thread any time). Back to the current game and ahippo’s flavor and setup discussion. This stands out to me because he asked it twice.
ahippo wrote: But I'd like to ask my question again: What role, other than cult leader, do you think could change another player's alignment?
I’m not sure if he’s skeptical of cult or wary of cult. And it looks like I might never find out, as he’s asked for a replacement. Hope it wasn’t because of my lurker rant, because it wasn’t directed at you.

Carlington- Two almost contentless posts, believes claims, setup spec. Carlington, read the lurker rant in my previous post.

freezeblade- Believes there is a high possibility of a third alignment that recruits. Setup spec based on flavor and mod hints. Would vote indie or lurker to avoid no lynch (insert no lynch joke here). Unfortunately is gone for the weekend and won’t be back until a half hour before deadline.

Gopher of Pern- Setup spec possible cult, jester. I agree with his views on early claiming, and I find Sabrar’s reply to GoP’s comments interesting. He has a lot of content, but it’s focused on only a few players that he finds scummy. So who do you find townie?

jimbobmacdoodle- I want to revisit this.
bessie wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I'm going to assume given the number of players and relatively few NPCs that scum have false claims, so a lack of counter-claiming doesn't imply town.
Why would scum need false claims? Per Game-specific rule #8, name-claiming/power-claiming is allowed.
I previously argued against scum having false claims. Now Znirk has claimed otherwise. Makes me even more suspicious that town!jimbobmacdoodle would make the above comment in his first post.
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Looking back on Madge's claim and thinking on it a bit more, I'm pretty confident that unless scum have fake claims for their powers (I have no idea why they would), then Madge is telling the truth. There is a small chance that she is not town, but I don't think it particularly likely.
Now that we have a self-claimed independent with a false claim, what do you think of Madge’s miller claim?
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I went back over my role PM, and I think there's a small chance that I have some sort of hidden bonus win condition, based on the flavour. It could be just flavour, so I'm not putting too much stock in it for now, but still. I don't see any benefit in revealing further info at this point, beyond that it is not anti-town, but probably will do at a later point in the game. I thought I'd highlight it though in case other players are in similar situations (e.g. if most players have something similar going on, it's more likely that it is genuine for all of us).
I feel the entire purpose of this claim is either to cause a distraction or set up a false claim later. Last post was on Thursday, hopefully he will have time to contribute some reads before deadline.

JustDanceUnlimited- Lurker. I’ve seen them browsing the forum.

LaserGuy- Claims to be a newbie, but is already posting suspiciously solid content. :) Offered early reads on some players. Do you have an updated list? I like what I see so far.

Madge- Claimed miller. I try to base my reads on game content and not meta but I believe her for meta reasons (Madge has been known to claim or breadcrumb on D1). I like her analysis of Znirk, but it would be nice if she would provide some reads on other players too.

mpolo- Hints that there is a reason for him to believe there may be a cult. Posts some early gut reads, but no detailed reads, except on the Znirk.

plytho- Another alleged newbie with good content. :) His reads are straightforward, he gives a read and a brief reason without any fluff. Not that that’s wrong, but the style leaves some ambiguity as to his reasons, and there are too many neutrals. plytho, can you make an ordered town-scum list with no groupings? I like ordered lists because you can have everyone neutral if you want, but someone will be scummiest neutral and someone will be towniest neutral.

Sabrar- His defense of Znirk is interesting. Throws out the possibility that Znirk is a survivor (and therefore not an immediate threat to town) here.
Sabrar wrote:
Znirk wrote:whether or not I win doesn't directly depend on whether it's town or scum who win the larger game.
I have issues with this wording, e.g. it is technically true for Jester but I still would think that it is an anti-town role as it tries to take away a valuable lynch-opportunity that could have been used to get rid of scum. Now obviously no-one will claim to be an anti-town indie but IGMEOY.

Does a Survivor make sense given the flavor?

This attack on Gopher of Pern for supporting a Znirk lynch is interesting.
Sabrar wrote:
Gopher of Pern wrote:At this stage, I'd be happy lynching Znirk, if no one better pops up on my scumdar. Claiming indy early on is silly. If they are a jester, let them have their win early, and if they are a survivor, it can be better to let them die now, than risk them siding with scum later on. If they are an SK they are silly for claiming.
This feels like going for a 'safe' lynch, without having to do scum-hunting. Similar to false Miller claims being rare or non-existent, anti-town indies also don't tend to claim in their first post.

Here’s another attempt at linking Znirk with not-a threat-indie in everyone's mind.
Sabrar wrote:I do not agree with your reasoning, it is possible from Znirk's pov that the best play for him is to let scum know he is not a threat (e.g. Survivor). That doesn't make him anti-town and assuming he is telling the truth then he provides basically the same amount of information to both town and scum (i.e. similar to how scum don't need to kill him, the same way Cop doesn't need to investigate him, Doc doesn't need to protect him, etc).
Also if I'm reading it correctly he basically promised to help us against scum and I would assume he can prove this later.

Here’s his read of Znirk.
Sabrar wrote:Znirk: No content besides claim. However nothing he said really explains why he claimed so early, so it's possible that he's anti-town and wants to be left alone. Agree with bessie that it wouldn't be advantegous for us to have him around in the late stages of the game.

Sabrar really wants to keep Znirk alive. I don’t have any problem in keeping Znirk around if there is another lynch candidate because I like Znirk and he’s contributing and if he’s telling the truth he’s not an immediate threat. But I don’t want him around too long. So Sabrar, how long do you think it’s safe for town to let Znirk live?

SirGabriel- Nearly all of his content is one long post, which is mostly content summary, not analysis, followed by a read (only analysis is of ahippo and his three scum reads Gopher of Pern, Sabrar, Znirk). Later upgraded Sabrar to neutral.

Znirk- Claimed indie, already discussed this, still thinking about it, will probably discuss again.

I'll try to have an ordered list and a vote within 12 hours.

Ninja'd by dimochka.

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby Sabrar » Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:47 am UTC

bessie wrote:Sabrar really wants to keep Znirk alive. I don’t have any problem in keeping Znirk around if there is another lynch candidate because I like Znirk and he’s contributing and if he’s telling the truth he’s not an immediate threat. But I don’t want him around too long. So Sabrar, how long do you think it’s safe for town to let Znirk live?

Similar to how there is no history of scum false-claiming Miller in their first post, I also don't remember any anti-town role claiming indie in their first post. That is the reason why I don't think that he is a threat (and I could obviously be wrong here).
However if the majority of you thinks that he is a liability and will definitely have to be lynched at some point then I think it's best to do on D1 where we don't risk lynching town instead and I will not obstruct it.
So in my opinion either lynch him now or don't lynch him at all (pending future investigation results).

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby LaserGuy » Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:49 am UTC

bessie wrote:LaserGuy- Claims to be a newbie, but is already posting suspiciously solid content. :) Offered early reads on some players. Do you have an updated list? I like what I see so far.


Thanks, I'm trying my best :) Having a lot of fun and spending way too much time thinking about this.

adnapemit - Don't have much of a read on her.

ahippo - A shame he's subbing out, since we'll never get his proper reasoning for the early claim. The more I think about his initial claim of Griswold, the less I like it, especially since he posted this before Znirk revealed his false claim. As a scum, this seems like a pretty strong play establishing himself as a townie role and possibly chasing away cops with an implied PGO threat, except it seems likely now that scum will have false claims, making character names pretty much worthless. As town, the only thing that really makes sense to me at this point is if he's Bulletproof. I guess he could be PGO, but he's probably better off just claiming that power outright if he's going to claim at all so that he doesn't accidentally murder a doctor or something. His reasoning for the claim seems a little dubious and doesn't really feel like it is helping town much. We'll see if a replacement comes in soon enough to add some content before the day is done. As it stands, he's definitely on my shortlist for votes right now.

bessie - Fairly townie play, consistent of what I saw her play in some earlier games. Good reads on jimbob, Sabrar, Gopher, none of whom I have particularly great reads on myself, so very helpful there.

Carlington - Don't have much of a read here. I don't recall if he comment about IRL difficulties in posting.

freezeblade - Willing to get on the Znirk bandwagon if nothing else shows up. Suspicious of Sabrar. Nothing since the early posts has been really pinging me though.

Gopher of Pern - His wine post with respect to ahippo bothers me quite a bit. Ahippo's claim was not very townie, and I don't really feel that this helped clarify the issue for town. Since then, mostly tunneling Sabrar about the Znirk issue. Maybe a bit scummy.

jimbob - I really like bessie's read on him, which I completely missed myself. Will be interesting to see response. Definitely leaning scum, though I'm basically following her logic here.

JustDanceUnlimited - Hasn't contributed anything other than saying he's alive. If we end up lynching a lurker, he'd probably be my choice, because he really isn't trying at all.

Madge - I'm assuming townie at this point due to miller claim. I like that she's trying to put the screws to Znirk to get him to cough up his role. Even if she didn't claim miller, nothing in her play has felt particularly scummy.

mpolo - Don't really have any strong feelings here.

plytho - Feels townie, but don't have a strong impression one way or the other.

Sabrar - Tunneling on Gopher some. Supports keeping Znirk around which I'm somewhat ambivalent about--as I noted already, I think lynching him is a good option if we have nothing better to do, but even lynching a lurker like JustDanceUnlimited that turns town might honestly give us more information than lynching Znirk and finding out he's been completely truthful with us. My early read was strong townie, but leaning a bit more scummy now I think.

SirGabriel - Don't really have any strong feelings here.

Znirk - Don't have much to add here that I haven't already said. Reasonably certain he's lyncher indie.

I'll place a vote tomorrow. jimbob and ahippo are the only really strong scum reads I have at the moment. Znirk or lurker lynch (JustDance?) seem decent alternates.

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby Sabrar » Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:08 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:but even lynching a lurker like JustDanceUnlimited that turns town might honestly give us more information than lynching Znirk and finding out he's been completely truthful with us.
Would you mind explaining your logic here? How can lynching a complete lurker provide any information? It's just getting rid of someone who is not participating, you won't even have the chance to analyze possible connections to other players.
To note: I fully support lynching lurkers but I don't understand your reasoning behind it.

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby Sabrar » Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:22 am UTC

Request mod-prod on Carlington

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby Znirk » Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:56 am UTC

Probably my last post for Day 1, certainly the last from a proper keyboard:

First off, sorry everyone for hogging the attention - I frankly didn't anticipate this much response. Also, apologies in advance for spending most of the upcoming post talking about myself yet again.

Why did I claim? Mostly, real-life reasons. I have only the odd half hour to spare for this game at the moment, so I couldn't really keep up with the flow of posts. Giving some information about myself was easy content in the absence of analysis opportunities.

Below, some reactions to a quick pass thorugh the thread so far:

Znirk wrote:there's about 1/3 of my role pm where I can't even tell whether it's pure flavour or contains game-level relevant information.
Oh hey, I had mentioned this. Yep, that turned out to be the offer of a false claim. And no, I don't really know why there was one in the first place; but, to reiterate, by the time I found out that was what it was, I had already committed to a role not in flavour or people's lists, when Rogue had been mentioned by at least one person.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Speaking of Znirk, I doubt he's a survivor. From experience, they tend to explicitly claim as such when they claim indie. That generally isn't the case for other indies this early - claiming jester or lyncher for example isn't going to happen. I think he is likely indie, but whether an anti-town one or not is up for debate still.

What is this "experience" you speak of? :D

Madge wrote:If you're indy and claiming on D1, as far as I'm concerned, you need a detailed claim including your wincon and power/s. Or a vague but reasonable hint to the same that will satisfy us you've nothing to hide. [...]


Thanks for clarifying, and a bit of a red flag on you for asking for details on my pro-town power, which at this point seems like more of a targeting assist for scum than something town need to concern themselves with on day 1. But then, I'm really leaning towards believing you're a miller, so that doesn't exactly help me. ... OK, let's go as far as this: I'm a survivor, hence (as said in earlier posts) unable to win before the game ends and benefiting from a shorter rather than a longer game. My exact power is none of your business at this point but, like the glory of the lord, shall be revealèd (yup, writing under the influence of Händel here).

Again: I have no analysis to offer today, but on a combination of gut feeling and OMGUS, I'll for now commit to

vote: Adnapemt

Any updates from me will be rare, brief and full of spelling errors because phone.

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby Sabrar » Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:24 pm UTC

@Znirk: why didn't you claim Survivor right at the beginning? Why do you think Survivor needs a false claim?

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby plytho » Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:10 pm UTC

First some thoughts on Znirk:
Claims: alignment: Independent, role: Survivor, name: Red Vex, false claim: the Rogue, flavour: revenge
notes: I'm quite suspicous about the survivor claim, things don't really add up as LaserGuy already mentioned before Znirk's claim
LaserGuy wrote:Survivor seems really doubtful to me. Why would a survivor need a false claim from flavor? If she's character is out for personal revenge, lyncher makes a lot of sense to me.

Definitely not town, almost certainly independent.
I don't believe he's a survivor. Claimed flavour and false claim make little sense for a survivor.
Flavour and false claim make sense for a lyncher but why claim the revenge flavour if you're claiming survivor next?
So I think he's a jester. I wouldn't mind lynching him.

I was going to do a full reads list but got distracted by Znirk thoughts (another reason to lynch him).

For now I have a scum to town list, I'll try to elaborate later.

Scum:
JustDanceUnlimited
Sabrar
GopherofPern

Neutral:
Carlington
ahippo
adnapemit
SirGabriel
jimbobmacdoodle
Freezeblade

Town:
LaserGuy
mpolo
bessie
Madge
plytho
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby Sabrar » Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:14 pm UTC

plytho wrote:So I think he's a jester. I wouldn't mind lynching him.
Why are you okay with lynching a jester?

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby plytho » Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:50 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:
plytho wrote:So I think he's a jester. I wouldn't mind lynching him.
Why are you okay with lynching a jester?


As I've said before I prefer a jester lynch to a town lynch. By that I meant a probable jester lynch. If I was 100% certain about Znirk being jester I wouldn't agree with lynching him.

I'll use percentages to make things clearer.
I think Znirk is jester 70%,lyncher 20%, survivor or something else 10%

I prefer lynching him and getting rid of that 30% uncertainty to lynching someone else who has a high probability of being town.

My scum reads are a lurker that might be sort of intimidated by the game and two people whose interactions feel off but I need to reread to figure out why exactly. I think all three of them could very well be town so I'd prefer lynching Znirk.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby LaserGuy » Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:20 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:but even lynching a lurker like JustDanceUnlimited that turns town might honestly give us more information than lynching Znirk and finding out he's been completely truthful with us.


Would you mind explaining your logic here? How can lynching a complete lurker provide any information? It's just getting rid of someone who is not participating, you won't even have the chance to analyze possible connections to other players.
To note: I fully support lynching lurkers but I don't understand your reasoning behind it.


We at least get some information from his role PM. It's not much, but it has the virtue of being true.

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby Sabrar » Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:33 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:We at least get some information from his role PM. It's not much, but it has the virtue of being true.
But we would get the same info from Znirk's lynch plus potentially more if it turns out he has team-mates or if he is clearly labelled as anti-town. So I don't understand why the lynch of the lurker would provide more info as you stated.

@plytho: thanks for the clarification, that makes more sense.

Request mod-prod on JustDanceUnlimited

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby Znirk » Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:47 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:@Znirk: why didn't you claim Survivor right at the beginning? Why do you think Survivor needs a false claim?

A: because that's just my win condition, which is mainly of interest to myself (since it's neither town not scum).

B: I don't think survivor does need a false claim (note how it didn't occur to me to use one). Maybe Dimochka does, but what he actually says is that Red Vex might have use for one. Whether or not role names are related to win conditions is pure speculation.

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby Sabrar » Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:53 pm UTC

Znirk wrote:B: I don't think survivor does need a false claim (note how it didn't occur to me to use one).
Sorry, I phrased that question badly. It should have been 'Why do you think Survivor was given a false claim?'
bessie wrote:I’m wondering why anyone needs a false claim at all. It doesn’t fit with the way the mod claims he set up the game. I’ve been thinking about how this would work with Znirk’s claims. Now suppose the RNG matched Rogue (role) to Lyncher-with-a-random-target (alignment). Then after the match dimochka could have written the character’s back story and created the safe claim (you’re Red Vex, but you still look like your pre-possessed self, the Rogue).
I'm actually thinking bessie might be right here and there could be a Lyncher for Znirk out there. Would be great to confirm as that means more indie players -> less actual scum.

Would the hypothetical lynch of the target of a hypothetical Lyncher cause said Lyncher to leave the game after he earned his victory or would he continue to play with no stakes in it for him?

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby Znirk » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:10 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:Why do you think Survivor was given a false claim?

To reiteraclarify: in contradiction to my earlier speculation my best guess on this is that 'survivor was given a false claim' is not what happened. Rather, the false claim offer was given to a specific character, who coincidentally also got survivor.

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby LaserGuy » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:37 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:We at least get some information from his role PM. It's not much, but it has the virtue of being true.


But we would get the same info from Znirk's lynch plus potentially more if it turns out he has team-mates or if he is clearly labelled as anti-town. So I don't understand why the lynch of the lurker would provide more info as you stated.


I'm assuming that the information regarding Znirk's role is mostly accurate, so we aren't likely to be getting much new information, just confirming what we already know. I'll admit I hadn't considered the possibility of teammates for him. Do indies often have teammates?

Going to be very busy today. In case I don't get back before the deadline:
Vote Znirk.

It's the least worst option we have right now, and everything he's said today is feeling very scummy to me

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:48 pm UTC

Sorry for the lack of posts over the last two days. I was out most of yesterday and too tired to contribute at that point, and had forgotten that I didn't post on Friday. Following is a pair of posts, written more or less in parallel with each other. This one contains my reads on everybody. The next one will respond to items either addressed to me or otherwise not covered below. Sorry for the walls of text.

Notes:
Spoiler:
adnapemit: believes Madge's miller claim. Early claim is telling the truth or scum making target of themselves unnecessarily. Thinks ahippo's claim is suspicious due to certainty that he's not a target. Thinks two or three indies. Explains further reasons behind belief of Madge's claim. Doesn't believe lynching indie is better than lynching scum, but supports lynching Znirk. Reads list says she believes scum has false claims. Has Carlington, Gopher of Pern, me, Sabrar as varying levels of slightly scummy; LaserGuy, Madge, plytho, SirGabriel.

ahippo: random idea on possible game mechanics, discussed with GoP. Claims Griswold; doesn't think name significant. Primarily did it to get discussion going. Unsure on Madge claim initially, but goes with very likely Town later on. Thinks secondary win-con would be stretching.

bessie: standard setup spec. IGEMOYs me for my comment on false claims. Thinks naive millers unlikely. Realises initial spec makes no sense but otherwise defends the rest of it. Thinks Znirk might be anti-town indie, such as lyncher. Dislikes early claims. Calls for lurkers to post. Reads list without any real conclusions at this point. Comes back to my false claim comments, plus my reads on Madge and bonus win-condition. Also doesn't like Sabrar's interactions regarding Znirk.

Carlington: Thinks 8-4-1-1-1 or 9-4-1-1 is the setup.

freezeblade: Doesn't think evil NPCs present. Suggests possession is how to determine alignment. Thinks a recruiting scum faction possible due to various flavour points and mod-statements. Thinks 4 is too many for mafia. Name has not been brought up yet. Dislikes D1 claim from Znirk(?), and notices buddying of Sabrar on Znirk. Prefers indie or lurker lynch to no lynch. Thinks Znirk is indie. Promises vote, but does not vote.

Gopher of Pern: Thinks cult possible; jester likely. Ding dong discussion with ahippo, which seems purely random. Doubts random role hopping as an idea. Dislikes early claims. Doesn't understand ahippo's claim and subsequent follow-up comment. Random wine comments. Trusts bessie's setup spec. Highlights Carlington's phrasing (I picked up on this, but dismissed it as a non-issue). Happy to lynch Znirk due to early indie claim. Dislikes the false character claim from Znirk. Thinks there's a reasonable chance Znirk is a jester, and swings towards ignoring them, turning instead to Sabrar, and later voting him.

LaserGuy: Some initial flavour thoughts. Early limited reads/commentary post. Agrees with me re. Znirk not being a survivor due to false claim. Much more detailed post about Znirk's claim, and thinks he's likely a lyncher. Doesn't think jester or SK are likely. Discusses whether we should lynch him, leaning towards it until better options are available. Reads list, ahippo, and me as scum (less so Gopher).

Madge: Claims miller in first post. Name appears in day start post. Suggests demons have possessed some townies. Terse response to my request for flavour justification. Votes Znirk for claiming indie without any further details, and pushes him hard on it.

mpolo: Thinks a cult possible, partly due to role info. Discusses setup a little. Early simple limited reads list. Thinks Survivor might well exist. Znirk could be lyncher, survivor or jester. Discusses Znirk claim further. Thinks Madge is miller.

plytho: Quickly highlights independence of town/scum versus names. Continues to examine possible characters. Thinks Lester could be jester (counteracts his previous independence of alignment versus name). Discusses bessie's proposed setup a bit. Fairly early reads list, with explanation behind opinions. Feels like he may be leaning on others' opinions a little too much though. Responds to my point about this. Prefers a Znirk lynch above others. Doesn't believe he's a survivor. Posts town/scum list (JustDance, Sabrar, Gopher scum; LaserGuy, mpolo, bessie, Madge town). Thinks we should lynch Znirk unless we are 100% certain he is a jester. Uncertain about his scum reads.

Sabrar: Thinks 4 scum or 3 scum plus traitor likely. Casts slight doubt on cult. Points out Madge's meaningless defence. Challenges ahippo on his claim in an almost identical manner to my ninja'ed challenge. Doesn't think we have 6 anti-town roles in the game, but likes bessie's setup. Corrects the previous statement after remembering random distribution of powers etc. Spends the next few posts discussing this setup more. Doesn't like Znirk's indie claim wording. Defends Znirk as saying that anti-town indies don't tend to claim in their first post. Disagrees with Gopher of Pern over this and thinks Gopher is tring to push a safe lynch. Posts reads list (adnapemit, ahippo, Gopher of Pern, JustDanceUnlimited as scum; bessie, freezeblade, me, LaserGuy, Madge, plytho as town). Unsure about Znirk, and his early claim. Asks for explanations from adnapemit and Gopher of Pern re. their thoughts. Thinks it better to lynch Znirk now than leave him be, if he's going to be a threat later. Challenges Znirk on late Survivor claim.

SirGabriel: Challenges freezeblade on high cult likelihood statement. Summary/reads list - bessie, Madge town; Gopher, Sabrar (later neutral), Znirk scummy.

Znirk: Doubts wandering scumminess. Claims independent, doesn't directly depend on town or scum winning. Power not tied to alignment is pro-town. Aligned with town by choice. Claims name and false claim as well. Might benefit from a shorter game. Claimed because easy content in absence of chance to analyse. Claims Survivor, refuses to claim power. Votes adnapemit, due to gut feeling. Survivor doesn't need false claim, but Red Vex might.
adnapemit: Her first two posts both feel a bit odd, for want of a better term. The way she phrases her defence of Madge's claim in her first post sounds almost unfinished. Also says this:
adnapemit wrote:I would rather lynching scum than a jester.
which I interpret to include a minor mistype (lynching -> lynch), but why say this? It's such an obvious statement, and yet it doesn't even sit well with her previous sentence that says that Znirk might be a jester, anti-town indie or scum. Maybe I'm being a bit picky here... Her reads list is a good solid list, even if it does have me as most scummy for a rather weak sounding reason, if you ask me (see my next post where I'll look at this a little more). However, I have seen scum!adnapemit give good looking reads lists before on at least one previous occasion. Overall, feels slightly towards the scummy end of the spectrum, but this may be a little OMGUS.

ahippo: I haven't seen much from ahippo worth commenting on beyond his name claim, which I already discussed as being pointless and potentially dangerous, since it could be some sort of signal to scum-mates. However, I don't have anything particular to back up that last point. On the other hand, I don't have anything particularly to discredit it either, as apart from his comment on believing Madge, he has not posted any thoughts on anybody else. I don't feel great about ahippo after thinking about his claim more, but I can't say that he's definitively scum. My early feeling was that it was an attempt to buy town points, but whether from town!ahippo or scum!ahippo, I can't say. Slightly scummy.

bessie: Seems fairly typical bessie to me so far. It's been a while since I've seen her play as scum (I think), so I don't know if her current typical bessie play is specific to town!bessie or any alignment. I do find her suspicions on me a bit of a stretch (she doesn't like my idea of suggesting there being false claims early on, and thinks my bonus win condition query is a distraction or false claim for later). She doesn't seem to be entertaining the idea that I could be genuinely trying to figure things out... I'll go a little more into detail on these in my next post. I like her picking up on the Sabrar/Znirk interaction. If Znirk flips scum, I think she might be onto something here. Overall, she feels fairly townie at the moment.

Carlington: Nothing of note to comment on apart from that he spent his only posts discussing the number of indies. Needs more content.

freezeblade: First (I think) to spot potential buddying between Sabrar and Znirk, but doesn't really highlight it as anything more than minor, which is probably appropriate at the stage he made the post. He promised a vote which has yet to materialise. His statement on preferring an indie or lurker lynch to No Lynch feels a bit safe to me, since at game start, No Lynch is always considered a negative. Nothing particularly strikes me as scummy about him. Purely based on the fact that both he and bessie picked up on the Znirk/Sabrar link, I think if Znirk and Sabrar flip scum, he is likely Town, whereas if bessie flips scum, he is scum as well. Otherwise, seems ok for now, but needs more content come D2 onwards.

Gopher of Pern: Hasn't discussed much about most players away from Sabrar and Znirk, so possibly starting to tunnel too much. I'm not sure where I stand on his point re. early claims, although I do agree that Znirk's claim is poor (see later for my thoughts on Znirk's claim). Leaning slightly town, but mostly only because his thoughts on Znirk are similar to mine (i.e. the claim is bad).

JustDanceUnlimited: No content. Needs to start contributing or needs replacing. I don't know where I stand on their first and only post, but for now I'm taking it at face value (note how much it contrasts with LaserGuy and plytho, who are both first timers on this forum).

LaserGuy: Putting a lot of effort in, which I like, especially from a newbie. He has posted both early and recent reads on players. Solidly town, in my opinion.

Madge: Apart from her miller claim, which I've discussed before and also will in my next post, her only content has been to press Znirk on his indie claim. It's D1 still, so this is fairly typical of Madge, coming down hard on somebody who has done something she really doesn't like, and I completely agree with her points. Leaning Town for now, both because of this and because I think it likely that she is a miller as claimed.

mpolo: Not much of note from mpolo yet, but a reads list on early points within 24 hours of game start makes me feel good about him. Would be nice if he could contribute on other players at some point though. Slightly townie.

plytho: As noted by bessie(?) another newbie who has solid content. I liked his response to my comment about following others' opinions, and as with others, his thoughts re. Znirk more or less match my own. He has posted opinions on everyone to a greater or lesser extent, although he could maybe give a bit more reasoning now for some of them. Town.

Sabrar: I went into Sabrar expecting to get a bad read, due to what others had said in their posts (note - my re-read was in player order, so comments above this are prior to me reading Sabrar's posts). I definitely see where thoughts on his defending Znirk come from, as I definitely saw them in my primed state. However, he has substantially backed off from this in more recent posts, though it is of course possible that it's because he realised he needed to distance himself from a scum buddy. I also really felt like Sabrar was pushing too much on Gopher unreasonably. Nothing particularly else stands out to me about Sabrar, but I don't get quite the same Town feel from him that I usually do. Slightly scummy.

SirGabriel - IRL issues means he has less content than I'm used to from him. His reads list does contain some thoughts on a few players, but many of them are simply labelled neutral. It's probably too early though to accuse him of trying to avoid having solid opinions though. Lack of content apart from the reads list makes it hard for me to judge him, probably fractionally on the town side of neutral.

Znirk - apart from his vote on adnapemit and his red-flag reaction to Madge's prodding, all of Znirk's content has been about himself and his role etc. As stated before, I really doubt he is a Survivor for various reasons now, many of which have already been outlined elsewhere by myself and others. The key points are that a) he didn't claim survivor out of the bag (if you're going to draw attention to yourself by claiming indie, it is best to at least say that you aren't a threat explicitly through your win-condition claim), b) he has a false claim (though I guess I could buy that the false claim is independent of his alignment, possibly because a lyncher is out to get him), c) his refusal to do any scum hunting so far, which means that Town really have no reason to trust him. Refusing to disclose his ability also doesn't sit well with me (could it be an anti-town ability tied to his real win condition?). Survival might be a part of his win condition, but if it is, I suspect it is tied in with something else. An obvious example is Serial Killer, though why an SK would claim is a mystery to me, so I doubt he's one of those. Going with the idea that he's lying, I reckon he is either scum who decided on a gambit D1 to get a free pass going forward, or a lyncher, simply because it fits with the flavour a lot better.

Town
LaserGuy
Madge
plytho
mpolo
Gopher of Pern
bessie
freezeblade
SirGabriel
JustDanceUnlimited
Carlington
ahippo
adnapemit
Sabrar
Znirk
Scum

Unvote

Vote Znirk

I don't feel strongly enough about any of my scum reads (Sabrar, adnapemit or ahippo) to warrant them being lynched over somebody I feel is very likely lying scum or anti-town indie. In the worst case, doing this wastes a lynch on a jester, or survivor who would have sided with us later on (in the latter case, it's no worse than lynching a townie, and the former is probably better than doing so). In the best case, we lynch scum or an anti-town indie who wants to do Town harm in some way.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:01 pm UTC

Responses to items raised during my re-read:
adnapemit wrote:Doesn't see cult hunting as possible unless someone has information but then asks not to reveal unless worthwhile. I wouldn't mind if jimbob explained this more. What counts as worthwhile? It someone's role says there is a cult but not how to find them, would you rather them not mention it?
I count really define exactly what counts as worthwhile, because it really depends on what the role is. If revealing knowledge of a cult is likely to leave you being recruited and losing town a powerful ability in a fight against cult (de-culter, vigilante etc as some off-the-top-of-my-head ideas), then it probably isn't worthwhile. On the other hand, if it's something like, "you cannot be recruited by cult" or similar, then you can probably state outright that you know there to be a cult in the game (though explaining why may not be the best of ideas). Overall, I'd rather someone mention there is a cult if they have knowledge of one as long as it doesn't paint a clear target on themselves as a useful townie.

Regarding adnapemit's scum read on me, I can see two things she might be basing it on - my cult hunting comments (addressed above), or my reconsidering of my opinion on Madge. As noted in my original post on Madge's miller claim, it was only a gut reaction to some of her justification (something I might add that others also noted, if I recall correctly). After sitting and thinking about it over the course of that day, I came to the conclusion that the evidence supporting her claim outweighed that one negative point. You say that scum might change their mind because everybody else thought differently. I took a quick glance over the posts between the one I was suspicious of Madge in, and the one where I made a decision, and I saw very little opinion expressed by most players on the subject in the interim (many discussed it but didn't state a firm conclusion on the matter), so I feel that you are painting a bit of a false picture here.

@adnapemit, would you clarify your scum read on me a bit more, please?
ahippo wrote:What role, other than cult leader, do you think could change another player's alignment?
A couple of examples could be a mafia with a recruit, presumably limited in some way (see MMM1), or a player who is recruited instead of killed (Silversmith - Trial of the Pariahs, Mafia supporter - Once Upon a Time, if I'm not mistaken etc).

bessie raised my point about false claims again. I'd actually dropped the idea internally (although I don't think I mentioned it) after she pointed out that it didn't work with the RNG element. My reason for bringing it up is that one of my thoughts when designing WoT 2 was how to avoid mass-claims ruining the game in a flavour-based game. My ideas were false claims, to use characters from a world with far more than are needed for the story, or to make up the characters. As my own name is from the flavour, I was pretty certain it wasn't the latter, and somebody had already said that there were only a limited number of NPCs, so I highlighted the false claims idea. With Znirk's claim, I now feel that false claims are indeed possible - I like the suggestion somebody made that they were retrospectively worked in once the basic setup had been organised.
bessie wrote:Now that we have a self-claimed independent with a false claim, what do you think of Madge’s miller claim?
I still think it likely that Madge is a miller - note that I said that I doubted fake claims for powers, and I consider Miller a part of a power. Znirk's false claim has not changed this.
bessie wrote:I feel the entire purpose of this claim is either to cause a distraction or set up a false claim later.
Really? What about me trying to figure out where I stand in this game? I know my main win condition, and that is what I'll be focusing on, but I'm sure you'd have to agree that if I have a secondary win condition, I should at least make an attempt to achieve it, if it doesn't harm Town. However, in order for me to know whether this is something I need to be aware of, I shared this point, in the hope that somebody else would shed some light on things. Given there's not been a resounding chorus saying they also have bonus win conditions, I expect it's just flavour after all.

@Sabrar, mostly off-topic:
Spoiler:
Spotted this quote on my re-read:
Sabrar wrote:I was similarly convinced that there was cult in WoT1 and it turned out that there was no alignment change at all in the game, just our indie had hidden win-con at the beginning.
Don't think I've explained this yet, mostly because it related to WoT 2, but the whole point I put that rule in there was actually nothing to do with the indie win condition, but because I wanted a cult-based game as a potential future game (which later became WoT 2), and didn't want to make it obvious due to rule changes between the two that a cult was likely. Indeed, I'm glad I did, because you soon went and compared the two sets of rules!

Znirk wrote:What is this "experience" you speak of? :D
Thinking about it, I can't remember when the last person to actually be a survivor claimed as such. I'd search the forum, but from experience, Gojoe posts show up unspoilered if they contain the search-word, which is not cool at all. However, I'm sure I've seen it. If anybody else can remember when, I'd greatly appreciate it. The reason behind doing so is because it clearly identifies you as somebody who is not a threat to anybody. Assuming the claim is 100% believed, there is no point in targeting them with the night kill for Scum, because a survivor might choose to support them. Similarly, there's no point in lynching them as Town, because the survivor is not a member of Scum and so it would be a wasted lynch.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby dimochka » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:02 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:Would the hypothetical lynch of the target of a hypothetical Lyncher cause said Lyncher to leave the game after he earned his victory or would he continue to play with no stakes in it for him?

Once all possible win conditions for a given faction / player have been resolved, that faction / player would leave the game.

Current Votals:
Znirk - 3 (Madge, LaserGuy, Jimbobmacdoodle)
Sabrar - 1 (Gopher of Pern)
Adnapemit - 1 (Znirk)

15 people alive, 8 to lynch.

The requested two mod-prods have been sent.

D1 Deadline [Click here!] in about 21 hours (and is a soft deadline, assuming no one reached majority). Expect future days to be shorter.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby Sabrar » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:17 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Thinking about it, I can't remember when the last person to actually be a survivor claimed as such. I'd search the forum, but from experience, Gojoe posts show up unspoilered if they contain the search-word, which is not cool at all. However, I'm sure I've seen it. If anybody else can remember when, I'd greatly appreciate it.
Carlington claimed it (truthfully) in Dollhouse on D2 to avoid getting lynched. It didn't work out for him.

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby bessie » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:53 pm UTC

I haven’t had time to analyze anything posted since my previous post. I did a very quick skim. I’m posting my town-scum list because deadline is in less than a day and I need to go out for a few hours. I will probably revise this after I have time to read today’s content.

town-scum
bessie
mpolo
Madge
LaserGuy
plytho
SirGabriel
Gopher of Pern
adnapemit
freezeblade
ahippo
jimbobmacdoodle
JustDanceUnlimited
Carlington
Znirk
Sabrar

Vote: JustDanceUnlimited

Reason: no content.

I’m willing to vote for a lurker on D1, because I can’t see kicking someone out of the game that wants to play and keeping someone who won’t post, when D1 is often a mislynch anyway. I realize they’re new and this is a very inhospitable thing for me to do. I’ve tried to draw this player into the game. I’ve given this player an out by explaining that if they have real life issues, just post and let us know. I would also be willing to vote for Carlington because he knows better than to lurk, so he might actually be scum, but I also think Carlington will be back eventually. I have no idea about this new player, but now that ahippo has asked for a replacement we’re looking at the possibility of a modkill (because it's going to be difficult to find two replacements), which would totally suck. Not that it doesn’t totally suck wasting a lynch on a lurker, but at least my top scum picks are playing the game.

I'll move my vote if they post some acceptable content.

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby Sabrar » Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:06 pm UTC

@bessie: in your reads list basically the only thing you mention about me is my 'defense' of Znirk. Is the reason I'm being your pick for most scummy player tied to that? If yes, why?

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby SirGabriel » Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:26 pm UTC

I would vote for JustDanceUnlimited, but I'm hoping the mod will deal with him for us. I'm not sure Znirk is the best lynch candidate at the moment, so I'll go with my other scum read:

Vote: Gopher of Pern

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby plytho » Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:47 pm UTC

I'm rereading now to elaborate on my scum to town list.

Scum:
JustDanceUnlimited: claims experience on other fora, asks for help but doesn't respond to any of the help offered. It feels like they're scum hiding behind inexperience. They might be overwhelmed but a simple post saying 'hey guys this is too much/different for me to follow' would've cleared things up early. The fact that didn't happen points to lurky scum for me.

Sabrar:
After learning about Znirk's demon name + false claim the following comment by Sabrar seems to me like scum trying hard to distance themselves from the demon posession idea.
Sabrar wrote:If the "we're all villagers some of whom are controlled by demons" speculation (which you like so much) is true then the above won't mean anything.


GopherofPern: The disliking early claims comment still irks me a bit. I also don't like the fact that they're mostly focusing on Sabrar and avoiding reads of other players.

I'm having trouble articulating why exactly but the interactions between Gopher and Sabrar have me feeling at least one of them is scummy. I'm hoping things will start to make more sense Day 2.

This took me too long. I'll go through my neutral reads in a following post.
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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby Sabrar » Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:59 pm UTC

@plytho: I pointed out to Madge that the same setup idea that she liked so much would also render the 'strenghtening' of her claim irrelevant. How you interpret that as me distancing is beyond my comprehension.

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby plytho » Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:03 pm UTC

Following the previous post: an elaboration on my neutral reads from scum to town:

Carlington: barely any content, uncharacteristic for an experienced player
ahippo: Strange claim (possibly false claim?) + low content, I hope his replacement will provide some more content
adnapemit: low content followed by one good reads post
SirGabriel: low content followed by one good reads post
Freezeblade: quite active early on, then quiet due to irl
mpolo: I liked his early reads post, moved to neutral due to low content

These are my town reads least to most townie:
bessie: I like her reads and questions,
LaserGuy: active, thoughts seem similar to mine, good reads list
jimbobmacdoodle: low content followed by a strong reads post + replies/ comments on posts, moved to town
Madge: Miller claim hasn't been counterclaimed, pushed Znirk into claiming survivor


Sabrar wrote:@plytho: I pointed out to Madge that the same setup idea that she liked so much would also render the 'strenghtening' of her claim irrelevant. How you interpret that as me distancing is beyond my comprehension.

It seemed to me like you were trying to say "this is not my idea, it's your's".

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Re: Diablo Mafia - Day 1 (Tristram Awakens)

Postby Gopher of Pern » Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:50 pm UTC

I love how people attack me on my meta comments, and not on my actual content.

I know believe Znirk is a jester. I am not going to lynch a jester, especially if they have some sort of 'kill the last/first player to vote for them if lynched' power. Probably best to just ignore them.

SirGabriel, you haven't actually stated why you think I'm scummy. You listed everything I did, but I have no idea what you think is scummy or not.

Re: bessie's vote, I understand it, but I would think a Carlington vote would be more effective. He lurked last game as scum, and lurking this game. Though, for a newbie, JDU has contributed nothing, and they have been around (they posted in the sign ups thread.)

Sabrar, you said I was not scumhunting, simply because I was in favour of lynching Znirk early on. I expressly said that it was only if nothing further came along. And lo, it did! You tunnelled into me so hard, you didn't realise I wasn't the only one expressing the same sentiments. Plus, there are plenty of people here who aren't doing their fair share of scumhunting, because it's too hard. I do tend to keep things to myself a bit, because some of my thoughts would be more beneficial to scum if I aired them. But I find one scumtell is having vague opinions. Scum tend to be very careful about what they say. I know I am when scum.

I rarely find people townie from their posts, because of one simple rule: Scum try to act like town. So you'll rarely see me call someone town, especially early in a game.

So, brief thoughts on players:

Sabrar - acting much like they did in the previous game, where they were scum. Scummy
LaserGuy - Seems alright, haven't seen any slips.
Jimbob - Good content.
Freezeblade - a bit wishywashy on their opinions, but they haven't posted recently. Slightly scummy.
Znirk - Likely Jester, possible lyncher. I think we can just ignore them.
ahippo - subbing out, but had the early claim, and haven't added much. Slightly scummy.
plytho - Decent content, despite me disagreeing somewhat.
adnapemit - Decent content.
SirGabriel - Doesn't explain why they think people are scummy. Slightly scummy.
Madge - Miller claim, and only focuses on what indies should do. Doesn't provide reads, but that is typical of her. Would otherwise consider scummy.
JustDance Forever - Nothing of note. Would be a lurker lynch if this wasn't their first game.
mpolo - Just states what people have said. Pretty active lurky. Scummy.
Carlington - Lurking. Similar to last game. Scummy.
bessie - Good content.

So, I'd be happy with Sabrar, mpolo or Carlington atm. My vote stands for now.
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