Police misbehavior thread

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DSenette
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby DSenette » Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:28 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
speising wrote:they can always fudge it so that their victim's attack damaged the camera. the only solution I see would be live streaming, but I'm not sure that's technically feasible.


Then maybe live stream to the officer's vehicle through short-wave radio or something. The vehicle probably has room for larger hard drives anyway. I don't think vehicle cameras (and vehicle recorded video) have had much issues, have they?

In any case, there are a ton of technical solutions. I think the discussion needs to be had where we determine whats best. And once we do that, we can go report to our city counsel and start pushing for these cameras (and the correct implementation of them as well)

I know that this is how the voice recorders work (storage in the car not in the mic equipment on the cop). I would imagine this is also how the body cameras would work
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KrytenKoro » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:35 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
leady wrote:A more interesting question on this case is whether once the forensics came out with multiple entry wounds to the back whether he would have been charged regardless (that alone I assume would bury the cops story)

It does not. Forensic teams rarely rat out cops. They all work together(prosecutors, cops, crime scene investigators), remember?*

*Speculation.

"But who will maintain those cameras? "
Someone not connected to policing? Besides, my idea isn't any worse than giving the cameras to the cops. At worst, the cops control it just as much as body cams. Mine just has a better best case scenario.
Real life example, Chicago cop in chinatown committed a crime, and tried to destroy the camera recording the incident when he realized he was recorded. Thankfully, the hard drives were out of police control, and the cop was charged. Unless you strong internal controls, the cops would just delete the offending footage. And if they had strong internal controls, you wouldn't have all these rogue cops.

Why not switch all those independent firms running the prisons over to policing the police? For extra points, have bonuses awarded for catching malfeasance on the part of the cops. Set the two groups in direct competition with each other.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Prefanity » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:20 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:
sardia wrote:
leady wrote:A more interesting question on this case is whether once the forensics came out with multiple entry wounds to the back whether he would have been charged regardless (that alone I assume would bury the cops story)

It does not. Forensic teams rarely rat out cops. They all work together(prosecutors, cops, crime scene investigators), remember?*

*Speculation.

"But who will maintain those cameras? "
Someone not connected to policing? Besides, my idea isn't any worse than giving the cameras to the cops. At worst, the cops control it just as much as body cams. Mine just has a better best case scenario.
Real life example, Chicago cop in chinatown committed a crime, and tried to destroy the camera recording the incident when he realized he was recorded. Thankfully, the hard drives were out of police control, and the cop was charged. Unless you strong internal controls, the cops would just delete the offending footage. And if they had strong internal controls, you wouldn't have all these rogue cops.

Why not switch all those independent firms running the prisons over to policing the police? For extra points, have bonuses awarded for catching malfeasance on the part of the cops. Set the two groups in direct competition with each other.


There's no money in it.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby krogoth » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:37 pm UTC

Put the cops wages insurances and bonuses on the line?

It would still be more efficient to just contract out cops from companies, and hold the companies responsible then wouldn't it? from the companies pov.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:18 am UTC

leafy wrote:I used to be against the CCTV state in the UK, until I realised that it doesn't catch criminals but rather exonerates the innocent.

I think you and I agree.

I was against them at first.
But; Here we are out in Public....

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:27 pm UTC

krogoth wrote:Put the cops wages insurances and bonuses on the line?

It would still be more efficient to just contract out cops from companies, and hold the companies responsible then wouldn't it? from the companies pov.


Look, I'm all for capitalism and such, but capitalism is fundamentally good at maximizing something and making it efficient. If you want efficient donut making, well, put that in private hands, not public. Soon, you will have inexpensive donuts in vast quantities(and we'll probably all be fat).

Now, if you put them in charge of police misbehavior, you will see a similar proliferation.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:44 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
krogoth wrote:Put the cops wages insurances and bonuses on the line?

It would still be more efficient to just contract out cops from companies, and hold the companies responsible then wouldn't it? from the companies pov.


Look, I'm all for capitalism and such, but capitalism is fundamentally good at maximizing something and making it efficient. If you want efficient donut making, well, put that in private hands, not public. Soon, you will have inexpensive donuts in vast quantities(and we'll probably all be fat).

Now, if you put them in charge of police misbehavior, you will see a similar proliferation.

Donuts?
You have free Donuts for people in Uniform?

Everyone!
Get a Uniform!

No...That's not what you are saying...
Police and Donuts...

ahh... The Good Old Days.
Coffee, and Donuts with The Police in Peace.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:26 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
krogoth wrote:Put the cops wages insurances and bonuses on the line?

It would still be more efficient to just contract out cops from companies, and hold the companies responsible then wouldn't it? from the companies pov.


Look, I'm all for capitalism and such, but capitalism is fundamentally good at maximizing something and making it efficient. If you want efficient donut making, well, put that in private hands, not public. Soon, you will have inexpensive donuts in vast quantities(and we'll probably all be fat).

Now, if you put them in charge of police misbehavior, you will see a similar proliferation.
we do have private enterprise in charge of our justice institutions. They spend every walking moment squeezing money out of the citizens. Much like what the cops Do now

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:33 pm UTC

sardia wrote:we do have private enterprise in charge of our justice institutions. They spend every walking moment squeezing money out of the citizens. Much like what the cops Do now


An excellent example of why privatization won't fix this.

It can make it very profitable, I am sure. That's just...not very comforting.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Qaanol » Sun Apr 12, 2015 12:46 am UTC

Welp, NYPD’s gone and done it now. After NBA player Chris Copeland was stabbed in a night club, the police detained two large men—one white and one black—outside on the curb. Neither of them was a suspect in the stabbing.

Everyone is talking peacefully, when suddenly a gaggle of police officers grab the black man, yank him in two different directions at once, put him in a headlock, throw him to the ground, pin his face to the pavement, and one officer smashes him with a baton. The black man’s calfbone got broken. It all got caught on two different videos.

So far business as usual, right? Problem is, the black man in this case is Thabo Sefolosha, who plays small forward on the NBA Eastern Conference-leading Atlanta Hawks. And now he has a broken leg. And there’s multiple videos of NYPD officers attacking him unprovoked.

If we lived in a society with anything resembling justice even if only for the rich, then the officer who swung his baton would be convicted and imprisoned for aggravated assault, and the other officers for simple assault (or aiding and abetting aggravated assault). And the judge should hand down the maximum possible sentences, because the perpetrators of this crime had been sworn to uphold the law and protect the people, and they abrogated that duty.

What I expect to happen is that the taxpayers of New York will end up forking out a large settlement, and there will not be any judicial penalty for the officers. This is, quite literally, an outrage. And it is equally outrageous, though substantially less surprising, that this sort of thing happens all the time and that even with video evidence the officers almost never face charges, let alone get imprisoned, and it is barely making the news even now that it’s happened to a famous person.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Sun Apr 12, 2015 12:55 am UTC

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nb ... /25626921/
Don't worry, the NBA's player's union is on the case.
Provided actual link to the player with the broken leg, original link was the stabbed guy.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Qaanol » Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:00 am UTC

sardia wrote:Don't worry, the NBA's player's union is on the case.

That…is a phrase I am going to start using much more often now.

Have no fear, the NBA Players Union is here!
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:57 am UTC

Dang!
This is a Dangerous fucking Country coast-to-coast.

Don't go out at Night.
There are Stabbers.

If the Stabbers don't 'get you' the Police will.
It looks like Time to have a self imposed curfew.

I have had a curfew when in a City all of my life.

I went to Europe. I was in a City.
I had to Go Out in The Night.

The first Time I was as careful as I am in the US.
I learned I did not need the same level of care.

For some reason, not over there.

In the US The Big Boyz get taken down.
Other than Fear, I don't know what to think.

Don't go those Dangerous Places!
Those three athletes should be Safe nearly AnyWhere, together.

What happened?
Divide and conquer?

How can that be?
How can they beat the snot out of that White guy's equal and the White guy just sits there?

So Big and Strong and so helpless? Like the Rock Biter?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj-OpTHixpU

Well..?
How would you explain it to a child?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrG-lsrXKRM

What can we Do??
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tirian » Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:04 am UTC

Qaanol wrote:What I expect to happen is that the taxpayers of New York will end up forking out a large settlement, and there will not be any judicial penalty for the officers. This is, quite literally, an outrage. And it is equally outrageous, though substantially less surprising, that this sort of thing happens all the time and that even with video evidence the officers almost never face charges, let alone get imprisoned, and it is barely making the news even now that it’s happened to a famous person.


That seems like a safe bet. According to the USA Today story linked above:

Sefolosha and Antic were both arrested. Sefolosha, who will undergo surgery, was charged with resisting arrest, obstructing governmental administration and disorderly conduct in the incident. Sefolosha refused multiple orders to disperse, charged an officer, resisted arrest by tightening and flailing his arms and it required multiple officers to handcuff Sefolosha, according to the arrest report.


Of course, it's no surprise to anyone that it is illegal to ignore an order to disperse in NYC and that the sentence is an ass-kicking to be applied on the spot with no judicial review required. One of the reasons that I spend as little time in NYC as possible is that I have no idea how to disperse. Are the people down there gaseous beings or something?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:34 am UTC

Qaanol wrote:Welp, NYPD’s gone and done it now. After NBA player Chris Copeland was stabbed in a night club, the police detained two large men—one white and one black—outside on the curb. Neither of them was a suspect in the stabbing.


They've done it all right. Let's see, how long will he be out? One season? That's $4 million in direct economic damages. For the rest of his current contract? $7.9 million. Career? Well, maybe he's toward the end of that, but he has a contract through 2017 and if he's ruined, NYC will pick up the tab for that, for sure. Tack on punitive damages and legal fees (he'll have a platoon of lawyers) well, figure $10 million. Easily $10 million, maybe more.

Unless he makes a case his career can run for another ten years: In which case, it could be upwards of $40 million.

I do hope the cops had fun.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Red Hal » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:46 am UTC

Speaking of misbehaviour caught on video: http://uk.businessinsider.com/san-berna ... 015-4?r=US
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:19 am UTC

Do you think men and women in uniform are, just, making shit up as they go along?
Or; Has my Nation spent Trillions of Dollars to Teach and Train these teams to play a game of 'Get The Terrorist' Hard Ball?

It's a rhetorical question.
I know the answer.

Trillions?
jeeze. That used to be a big number.

That kind of money spent on personal and equipment would give every child a full time professional Nanny.
And; Have plenty left over for Art, Science and Religion.

The stories of Undereducated and Brutally OverTrained personal that are heavily over equipped are True.

I have photos.
Don't you?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Paul in Saudi » Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:14 am UTC

I saw in the New York Times this morning that the policeman who murdered that fellow in Carolina is now friendless. His lawyer quit and the union is refusing to provide for his defense.

Everyone deserves a day in court and everyone needs a lawyer to tell his story as well as can be done. It is simply not right that the union is not doing its job.

I am surprised I am saying this, as I am usually the anti-police guy.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Dauric » Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:53 pm UTC

Paul in Saudi wrote:I saw in the New York Times this morning that the policeman who murdered that fellow in Carolina is now friendless. His lawyer quit and the union is refusing to provide for his defense.

Everyone deserves a day in court and everyone needs a lawyer to tell his story as well as can be done. It is simply not right that the union is not doing its job.

I am surprised I am saying this, as I am usually the anti-police guy.


Can someone get some linkage on this? Even murders can get competent representation, why is the Union dropping this guy like a hot potato? What else has he done to get this response?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:00 pm UTC

to guess I assume he must have also lied to his lawyer too.

As to the union ditching him that's understandable - this one officer has just provided the precedent that is going to be thrown into the police's face for years. But I assume he must have broken some rule to get unilaterally ditched.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:34 pm UTC

It's not like no one can represent him just because his first lawyer quit.

The union is likely trying to do PR damage control by distancing themselves from this guy, as they think doing so will lead people to believe all the *other* murders that coincidentally aren't caught on tape went exactly as the officer claimed.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby cphite » Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:57 pm UTC

Paul in Saudi wrote:I saw in the New York Times this morning that the policeman who murdered that fellow in Carolina is now friendless. His lawyer quit and the union is refusing to provide for his defense.

Everyone deserves a day in court and everyone needs a lawyer to tell his story as well as can be done. It is simply not right that the union is not doing its job.

I am surprised I am saying this, as I am usually the anti-police guy.


My guess regarding the lawyer is that he flat out lied to his lawyer about what happened, then the video showed what really happened, and the lawyer dropped him like a hot potato.

The union may be refusing to help for the same reason.

He does have a right to a fair trial and a lawyer; public defender will be assigned.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:05 pm UTC

Here's the link. He has another lawyer.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tirian » Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:52 pm UTC

I think it's a bit disingenuous for the department and police union to turn their back on Slager. They're the ones who exonerated him two years ago for using inappropriate and excessive force in arresting a man who was most emphatically not the guy he was supposed to be arresting. The department and the union are the reason that Slager was wearing a uniform and carrying a weapon with no additional training on the day that Walter Scott was murdered, and we should not allow them to distance themselves too far from him.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Diadem » Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:32 am UTC

The police union turning their back on Slager is a logical result of the 'blue code'. It works the same in all such groups, where there is a strong us-vs-the-world mentality. Members of the group will be supported beyond all reason, even when they are obviously in the wrong. But even this support has limits. Because there is another side to that coin. The group survives by forming a shared front against the outside world. If you break this front, you are seen as a traitor. Attacking another member of the group is one obvious form of betrayal. But having overwhelming evidence against you also does the trick. Shooting someone in the back and then lying about it and falsifying the evidence is not a betrayal of the code of the blue per se. But being caught on tape is. After all this is a huge embarrassment for the US police. There is no way any police officer can openly support what Michael Slager did. But one-of-us has to be supported. The only way out of that contradiction is to deny that Slager is one-of-us.

There's no room for middle ground here. He's not one-of-us. This means he never was one-of-us. This means he is a traitor, always just pretending to be one-of-us. Such a person can't be defended, there's no room for a nuanced view, or even for assigning him redeeming qualities. Without having looked into it I am willing to bet that you won't find any police officers in the media saying things like "but he was otherwise such a fine officer".

Needless to say that police having an us-vs-the-world mentality is a terrible thing all around.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Qaanol » Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:45 pm UTC

Excellent observation Diadem.

“No true police officer would ever get caught on tape shooting an unarmed person in the back.”
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:04 pm UTC

Qaanol wrote:Excellent observation Diadem.

“No true police officer would ever get caught on tape shooting an unarmed person in the back.”


I'll have to disagree with the sentiment however. I've got police in my family and in my circle of friends, and I don't think that's how the typical officer looks at this situation. The evidence is just so undeniable with the video. Before, you can say "Well the anti-police advocates out there just want you to believe that". But the evidence is absolutely solid, there's no way that anyone can mount a defense of the officer in this SC case.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Drumheller769 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:13 pm UTC

I think you are totally right, I think the issue is more to make sure he doesn't inadvertently sign some legal paperwork that gives the court the right to perform voodoo on his kids because he has no idea what all the legal morass means.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:58 pm UTC

Great excerpt from the CBC...

Pictured: A Montreal cop points a smoke grenade launcher point blank at protestor who is protesting education cuts. Whilst the cop is wearing stickers protesting cuts to his pension.


Other than the blatant offense at assuming the cop is "male", I can't help but giggle at the irony. Sad giggles.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:46 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
Qaanol wrote:Excellent observation Diadem.

“No true police officer would ever get caught on tape shooting an unarmed person in the back.”


I'll have to disagree with the sentiment however. I've got police in my family and in my circle of friends, and I don't think that's how the typical officer looks at this situation. The evidence is just so undeniable with the video. Before, you can say "Well the anti-police advocates out there just want you to believe that". But the evidence is absolutely solid, there's no way that anyone can mount a defense of the officer in this SC case.

How many minorities do you think your friends and family have abused? After they deny that, ask them how often they looked the other way at said abuse.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:29 pm UTC

sardia wrote:How many minorities do you think your friends and family have abused?


How many times have you directly called someone racist? Have you already assumed that me and my family are all pasty racist pigs because I said I know a couple of cops?

I'm going to ask for a public apology from you before we continue this discussion.

Diadem wrote:Needless to say that police having an us-vs-the-world mentality is a terrible thing all around.


As sardia notes in his post, there are very strong anti-police viewpoints in America. For many Police officers, putting on that uniform paints a target on their back. People don't look at police officers as human sometimes. I think "community policing" movement has a lot of benefits. Making sure that the local community trusts the cops, respects the cops, etc. etc. is very helpful in ensuring that cops reciprocate the feeling back to the community.

And of course, cops properly treating people with the respect they deserve similarly makes the community more trusting of them. Dumb events like "Police Barbeques" and Q&A sessions seem to help out with that, but it doesn't change the fact that there is a growing us-vs-the-cops mentality in many communities.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Carlington » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:23 am UTC

I don't mean to be rude, but this thread, the "Police misbehaviour thread", is currently seventy-six pages long. One wonders where a negative view of the police might originate.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:27 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
Diadem wrote:Needless to say that police having an us-vs-the-world mentality is a terrible thing all around.


As sardia notes in his post, there are very strong anti-police viewpoints in America. For many Police officers, putting on that uniform paints a target on their back. People don't look at police officers as human sometimes. I think "community policing" movement has a lot of benefits. Making sure that the local community trusts the cops, respects the cops, etc. etc. is very helpful in ensuring that cops reciprocate the feeling back to the community.

And of course, cops properly treating people with the respect they deserve similarly makes the community more trusting of them. Dumb events like "Police Barbeques" and Q&A sessions seem to help out with that, but it doesn't change the fact that there is a growing us-vs-the-cops mentality in many communities.

You don't have to answer my question.

Perception of being targeted and actually being targeted are two very different things. Do you have any studies that show police have a target on their back or aren't viewed as human? How should people who are being targeted & and are viewed as subhuman act in the face of such persecution?

Also, what do you mean by we should expect officers to be human sometimes?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:34 am UTC

Police don't deal with actual criminal activity as much as they'd have us believe (as opposed to various civil infractions and bureaucracy). Police don't actually have as dangerous a job as they'd have us believe (they generally don't crack the top 10, mortality-wise). Police aren't attacked as often as they'd have us believe (a large portion of cop deaths are traffic accidents).

They like to paint themselves as targeted and victimized, but that doesn't make it true.

(And the 76 pages of this thread have never even touched on the majority of cases I know about, and I don't even pay particularly close attention to news about killer cops because it's so constant and depressing.)
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:53 am UTC

sardia wrote:You don't have to answer my question.


Unfortunately, I still demand my public apology. You implied my family and friends to be racist. So I want you to take that back or clarify your position.

I've been more than willing to continue to visit this thread so that I can learn. Furthermore, while other posters have argued vigorously for their position, they have never crossed the line and directly insulted me or my family. You crossed the line, so please admit your mistake so we can carry on.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:55 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
sardia wrote:You don't have to answer my question.
Unfortunately, I still demand my public apology. You implied my family and friends to be racist. So I want you to take that back or clarify your position.
I can't speak for sardia, but if you ever wanted an apology for my own statements about cops, you'd never get it in this thread.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:55 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:
sardia wrote:You don't have to answer my question.
Unfortunately, I still demand my public apology. You implied my family and friends to be racist. So I want you to take that back or clarify your position.
I can't speak for sardia, but if you ever wanted an apology for my own statements about cops, you'd never get it in this thread.


So far however gmalivuk, you've never crossed the line. And I respect you for that.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:58 am UTC

Nah, I absolutely believe your cop family members probably have abused their power in racist and other oppressive ways, it's just never been contextually relevant for me to point that out.

Hell, even just toeing the "target on their backs" party line contributes to the oppressive police system we've got going here.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:11 am UTC

I am sad to see that our respect for each other was not mutual gmalivuk.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:14 am UTC

If you lost respect for me because I'm unwilling to naively assume that the cops you know are magically "not like other girls cops", it wasn't respect I care about in the first place.
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