Police misbehavior thread

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The Great Hippo
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:39 pm UTC

slinches wrote:Isn't that essentially what I said? Maybe there's a little difference in emphasis, but I thought I was making it clear that the post was trying to provide the information from the local article I read (now known to be from a questionable source).
No -- the way you framed it was that this information changes our interpretation of what occurred (from being straightforward police abuse to being something more complex). Even if you were right, the family trying to evade the police doesn't complicate or otherwise change the fundamental situation.

Again, note how arbiteroftruth framed their skepticism regarding the body-cam situation. They didn't claim this made the situation less straightforward. They didn't even say: "I'm not claiming the actions are justified, or race isn't a factor, but..." -- because sometimes, just saying you don't mean X can make it look like you mean X ("I'm not saying that the death-toll at Auschwitz wasn't horrible, but..." -- can you really imagine anything good coming after that "but"?).

I get that you were trying to express your skepticism regarding the factual content of this story in a way that respected the core concerns here (police brutality, institutional racism, etc). I get that you're frustrated because it feels like people are insistently interpreting your posts in the worst way possible. But consider: Some people here have experienced both police brutality and the endless attempts to justify, minimize, and otherwise deny that brutality.

It might pay dividends here for you to take a long, hard look at your own posts from that perspective: Imagine you've had police beat you and nearly kill you. Imagine you constantly see people on the internet talking about how the times you were beaten and nearly killed are "more complicated" than they appear, and the media is "over-sensationalizing" them.

Reading your posts from that perspective might give you reason to interpret them the way you see people interpreting them.
slinches wrote:I get that. Though, it's not the information itself that has a negative effect. It's the use of it to mislead. In that example it's using a known case of exaggeration to imply that the actual number is an exaggeration as well.

I don't think I did that here, but I can see how some may read it that way if that's what they wanted to see.
That's the thing: You can be misleading even when you don't intend to be. Someone could bring up the 4 million number from the Soviet plaques with wholly admirable intentions... but it still ends up being indistinguishable from the rhetoric of a Holocaust denier.

I'm not saying that everyone here who's angry with you is a pure, righteous soul; I'm not saying you're some sort of racism-denying pro-police blow-hard. But I am saying that... it's probably a little more complicated than "everyone's just seeing what they want to see"?

Remember, that axiom goes both ways: People often see what they want to see, including you.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:26 am UTC

slinches wrote:
idonno wrote:Do you understand how this insistence that informational value exists in a document that lacks all credibility and trying to use it this way makes you sound.

What I don't understand is how dismissing any information entirely is useful, regardless of the credibility. There is always informational value in everything the people involved share about the event. That doesn't mean we have to believe that any of it is true without independent corroboration. If nothing else, every statement is an opportunity for concrete evidence of falsehoods and may reveal underlying biases or motives.

This is such a garbage take.

"Who cares if this is all fake news propaganda bullshit? We should share everything anyone says about an issue and let the people decide! Teach the controversy!"

Information doesn't exist in a vacuum, and the sort of "information" you added here is typical of bootlickers and other police apologists. Furthermore, you have previously posted the same sort of thing in this thread, in addition to engaging in other disingenuous discussions elsewhere on the forums.

It's not actually unreasonable for people to consider that context when reacting to your posts.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:08 am UTC

ech...Come On!!
For a Dollar Store knock off Barbie??
For any doll taken by a four year old girl...(jeeze!)

The one thing we Know:
That little girl knows she can not turn to the Police; Ever!

That is a Crime.
She is just a little girl.

She belongs to a class of people that are Not safe in our Nation and That is Shameful.
It is Shameful for all people that wear uniforms. We All carry the Shame of the actions of those men.

The slug was correct when he wrote, "We need a deep and systemic change in All U.S. Policing."
ech..paraphrased; I can't find it in the blizzard of words.

edit: Maybe, that little girl's fear will keep her from becoming another Sandy Bland.
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Oh...In case you need a refresher:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Sandra_Bland
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Suicide..?; Your Fat Ass!
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby slinches » Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:44 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:It might pay dividends here for you to take a long, hard look at your own posts from that perspective: Imagine you've had police beat you and nearly kill you. Imagine you constantly see people on the internet talking about how the times you were beaten and nearly killed are "more complicated" than they appear, and the media is "over-sensationalizing" them.

Reading your posts from that perspective might give you reason to interpret them the way you see people interpreting them.

...

Remember, that axiom goes both ways: People often see what they want to see, including you.

I will try to take that under consideration. Although, I may find that a fine line to walk and all I can ask is for this sort of courtesy in assuming that I have good intentions when I do stumble into wording that offends.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby The Great Hippo » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:05 am UTC

I appreciate that, and I'm willing to put effort into a charitable interpretation of your posts! I obviously can't speak for anyone else, though (particularly since I've never had the experience of a police officer shoving a gun in my face).

I can at least acknowledge that communication is complex. I understand it's deeply frustrating and exhausting to constantly have to consider how your words will be taken -- especially if you start to suspect people are willfully misinterpreting you. I don't think that's what's happening here, but I can understand why you might get that impression.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby idonno » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:50 pm UTC

slinches wrote:What I don't understand is how dismissing any information entirely is useful, regardless of the credibility. There is always informational value in everything the people involved share about the event. That doesn't mean we have to believe that any of it is true without independent corroboration. If nothing else, every statement is an opportunity for concrete evidence of falsehoods and may reveal underlying biases or motives.

Yes catching people in lies has value and there might be some use in that but you presented it as context for an event and it is most certainly not in the slightest useful as context for what happened.
slinches wrote:Even if you had a ground up overhaul, the new organization would need effective policies and training to prevent these kinds of events.

I am curious exactly how much training you think not assaulting a 5 month pregnant woman over a suspected theft of $2 requires. The major issue is not policies or training it is accountability. People already know this behavior is abhorrent. Policies and training are the excuses they uses to ignore the lack of accountability. There may be issues that legitimately require better training and policies but we can take care of those once we get rid of all the police that are perfectly okay with threatening to murder someone in front of their children.


arbiteroftruth wrote:Did they? The only source I see for that is a tweet by Qasim Rasheed, Esq., quoted in this article natraj posted. And that tweet appears directly below a video from ABC15 which claims, around the 1:45 mark, that neither officer had a body camera or dash cam.

That is where the quote is from. Maybe they didn't actually have them in which case it isn't their direct actions that prevented footage. I freely admit that I am biased to believe other bad things about people I already know beat up a pregnant woman and threatened to murder a man in front of their kids. None of this changes the fact that they lied about what we can see in the recording to cover their own asses which means without another means of verifying it anything ass covering in the story is of no informational value and if there is another means to verify it, the informational value is in that data not the police report data.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:41 pm UTC

(sigh...) If you have the time, watch this and think about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se4aXahuGrw

Dear sweet Sandy.
She had worked hard.
She had earned a degree.

A possible seatbelt violation cost her her life.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:18 pm UTC

Police misbehaviour towards police (among others):

Jury this week found Minneapolis police officers abused license database access.

In 2013, Amy Krekelberg received an unsettling notice from Minnesota’s Department of Natural Resources: An employee had abused his access to a government driver’s license database and snooped on thousands of people in the state, mostly women. Krekelberg learned that she was one of them.

When Krekelberg asked for an audit of accesses to her DMV records, as allowed by Minnesota state law, she learned that her information—which would include things like her address, weight, height, and driver’s license pictures—had been viewed nearly 1,000 times since 2003, even though she was never under investigation by law enforcement. In fact, Krekelberg was law enforcement: she joined the Minneapolis Police Department in 2012, after spending eight years working elsewhere for the city, mostly as an officer for the Park & Recreation Board. She later learned that over 500 of those lookups were conducted by dozens of other cops. Even more eerie, many officers had searched for her in the middle of the night.

Krekelberg eventually sued the city of Minneapolis, as well as two individual officers, for violating the Driver’s Privacy Protection Act, which governs the disclosure of personal information collected by state Departments of Motor Vehicles. Earlier this week, she won. On Wednesday, a jury awarded Krekelberg $585,000, including $300,000 in punitive damages from the two defendants, who looked up Krekelberg’s information after she allegedly rejected their romantic advances, according to court documents.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby PAstrychef » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:43 pm UTC

Dang, whiny manbabies really feel entitled to do whatever they want.
On a purely philosophical level, if she had never found out about this, would she still have been harmed?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:57 pm UTC

PAstrychef wrote:Dang, whiny manbabies really feel entitled to do whatever they want.
On a purely philosophical level, if she had never found out about this, would she still have been harmed?

Yes, just not mentally. People don't just cyber stalk women. Sometimes it escalates, either on the job or off.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:59 pm UTC

her personally? who is to say. the many other women who have been stalked and harassed by cops who use private information as their own victim pool to find women to stalk? yeah, i'd say there's still harm. mind you that's just the first three results off of two seconds of google. i am 100% confident that there are thousands of people currently actively being harmed by this whose stories haven't made the news and whose abusive stalker cops haven't been reported anywhere, seeing as it is exponentially harder to report abusive cops in the first place.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:28 pm UTC

This is very much irrelevant but I'm surprised 12 people looked at her files 500 times. Like you couldn't write the information down? What sort of salacious details did they expect to glean from multiple viewings?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby slinches » Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:07 pm UTC

idonno wrote:Yes catching people in lies has value and there might be some use in that but you presented it as context for an event and it is most certainly not in the slightest useful as context for what happened.

I presented it that way because that's how it was presented to me in the original article I was never able to find. Once the source was made clear, I didn't defend those statements as accurate without verification.

idonno wrote:I am curious exactly how much training you think not assaulting a 5 month pregnant woman over a suspected theft of $2 requires. The major issue is not policies or training it is accountability. People already know this behavior is abhorrent. Policies and training are the excuses they uses to ignore the lack of accountability. There may be issues that legitimately require better training and policies but we can take care of those once we get rid of all the police that are perfectly okay with threatening to murder someone in front of their children.

Apparently they needed more training or better procedures than they had. Not necessarily in how to avoid committing assault, but quite possibly in identifying high risk individuals for this sort of behavior. I doubt it was this officer's first issue with excessive force. We can do better recognizing who these people are earlier and avoid many of the issues by not putting them in a situation where something like that can happen.


As for the misuse of databases, the high number of times accessed and larger number of officers is odd. I wouldn't be too surprised if the bulk of them was from something completely stupid like a best/worst DL photo contest between the officers. That kind of crap can pollute the record and hide stalking activity. At least there was a mechanism to find that sort of thing out in that case, though. Who knows what's going on behind the scenes at places like Facebook and Google?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:44 pm UTC

(after a more thorough read than my initial skim i realize those articles i linked initially refer to the same cop but:) alternately they're looking up tinder dates, stalking and harassing their exes, or... man there's just a long list here of the awful things cops around the country have been abusing this for cuz cops are generally abusive! that's how they roll.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby idonno » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:22 pm UTC

slinches wrote:
idonno wrote:Yes catching people in lies has value and there might be some use in that but you presented it as context for an event and it is most certainly not in the slightest useful as context for what happened.

I presented it that way because that's how it was presented to me in the original article I was never able to find. Once the source was made clear, I didn't defend those statements as accurate without verification.

I seem to recall a post where I quoted a series of times after that point where you continued to treated it as such.
slinches wrote:
idonno wrote:I am curious exactly how much training you think not assaulting a 5 month pregnant woman over a suspected theft of $2 requires. The major issue is not policies or training it is accountability. People already know this behavior is abhorrent. Policies and training are the excuses they uses to ignore the lack of accountability. There may be issues that legitimately require better training and policies but we can take care of those once we get rid of all the police that are perfectly okay with threatening to murder someone in front of their children.

Apparently they needed more training or better procedures than they had. Not necessarily in how to avoid committing assault, but quite possibly in identifying high risk individuals for this sort of behavior. I doubt it was this officer's first issue with excessive force. We can do better recognizing who these people are earlier and avoid many of the issues by not putting them in a situation where something like that can happen.

They are literally breaking the law that they are supposed to be enforcing with no real repercussions. You don't need more policies and training you just need the law enforcement system to enforce the law. You don't solve the corrupt blatant disregard for the law by making more rules that will simply be disregarded. You do it by firing people who aren't doing their job until you get someone that will actually do their job. This isn't some novel idea. It is how most jobs already work.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby slinches » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:18 pm UTC

idonno wrote:I seem to recall a post where I quoted a series of times after that point where you continued to treated it as such.

I tried not to, but I would have to re-read my other posts to be sure.

idonno wrote:They are literally breaking the law that they are supposed to be enforcing with no real repercussions. You don't need more policies and training you just need the law enforcement system to enforce the law. You don't solve the corrupt blatant disregard for the law by making more rules that will simply be disregarded. You do it by firing people who aren't doing their job until you get someone that will actually do their job. This isn't some novel idea. It is how most jobs already work.

Currently, serious disciplinary action is rare unless there's enough public pressure to do something in a specific case. We won't change that just by calling for specific offenders to be fired or charged whenever we are most outraged. We need to enact change within the organization which means implementing publicly auditable policies and training that will establish the case for punishment/firing relative to the offense. Then when something does happen, we can hold the departments accountable in addition to the individual. I think if we can get a strong consensus on open policies with standardized repercussions, then we can push to get those implemented and then there's a chance to change the police culture to one that will eventually begin to hold itself accountable.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ObsessoMom » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:25 pm UTC

I think the situation is much like the Catholic Church's--or any church's. The organization is inherently unable to hold itself accountable. Too much conflict of interest. Independent investigation of complaints is needed.

And the City Attorney or District Attorney, whose job is to decrease the government's liability, should not be providing legal assistance to citizens' review boards of police or sheriff departments, either. Giant conflict of interest. It's gotta be completely independent.

And while I'm at it, who appoints these boards, and how much campaign money did they accept from the police union? Can these be elected positions, please?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby slinches » Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:50 am UTC

Yeah, there's an inherent conflict of interest for the police to enforce the law against themselves. Although, introducing another "independent" organization as a watchdog opens the question of who watches the watchers. I was indirectly proposing requiring police policies and training to be public record, then we can create a set of open standards to gauge each individual department against that.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:41 am UTC

slinches wrote:Yeah, there's an inherent conflict of interest for the police to enforce the law against themselves. Although, introducing another "independent" organization as a watchdog opens the question of who watches the watchers. I was indirectly proposing requiring police policies and training to be public record, then we can create a set of open standards to gauge each individual department against that.
well...There is a good idea.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Angua » Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:55 am UTC

How hidden are policies at present though? Surely it is pretty easy to find out what policies and training the police are supposed to undertake at present - the problem is how they are enforced?? I'm sure most (if not all) departments would have policies and training against racism, etc but that doesn't mean anything if they are not actually followed - (if all the cops are covering for each other and not even reporting breaches in policy, then they aren't going to be able to be audited because if it's not written down/reported then it hasn't happened). The abuse of databases described above is one example - I bet that before cops get access to the database they have to undergo some sort of information governance training, and may even have to update it every year - it's probably some sort of elearning that they click through once a year. It is really only good for making people aware of what a breach in data protection would be for people who might not have thought about things, it's not going to stop people from maliciously abusing the system if they are so inclined. Now, with database access it should actually be easier to audit that without needing other cops to report it as presumably everyone should have their own login and you can probably run some sort of automatic check on how often people are accessing records to pick up what might be unusual behaviour (I have no idea how easy it would be to program that though), however if it's not possible to automate that then you are relying on another cop reporting the first cop before their access data is reviewed - even if the policies and training are in place to say this shouldn't happen, they don't get triggered until someone else makes the first report. If the other cops aren't reporting things, then all we have are members of the public reporting misbehaviours against themselves, to the cops who then are in charge of formally reporting it to trigger the investigation - so it's unsuprising that unless the media is involved in specific cases then nothing actually happens.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby idonno » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:40 pm UTC

slinches wrote:We need to enact change within the organization which means implementing publicly auditable policies and training that will establish the case for punishment/firing relative to the offense. Then when something does happen, we can hold the departments accountable in addition to the individual. I think if we can get a strong consensus on open policies with standardized repercussions, then we can push to get those implemented and then there's a chance to change the police culture to one that will eventually begin to hold itself accountable.

Given that departments are not held accountable when we know about their abuses, what makes you think more public information is a solution? The current rules are not enforced even when the transgressions of them are major media events. Adopting new policies and training has been the stall tactic for at the very least decades. We already have an open standardized set of rules called laws and the system refuses to properly prosecute them. Revising rules is not a viable solution when they are blatantly not being enforced.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ObsessoMom » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:33 pm UTC

I think training in de-escalation techniques and cultural sensitivity can be very, very helpful and can keep officers safer.

That said, such training has its limitations. I think the dangerous nature of the job turns police paranoid.

The officer we hear in the audio of this body cam footage (turn audio on) of what led up to the recent fatal shooting of the officer in Sacramento had probably had de-escalation training, because his "You're not in trouble" patter probably came from somewhere. (Although I'm not sure entering the house so soon, when he couldn't verify whether someone was actually in there, was exactly textbook procedure. And there's no mention of a warrant before he enters.)

For any other officer watching that footage, the takeaway is probably, "Wow, screw my de-escalation and sensitivity training, I've just got to be hyper-vigilant and assume that any person I approach is armed, if I don't want to end up dead."

In many individuals, hyper-vigilance can lead to snap decisions based on stereotypes, and an obsession with taking aggressive control of any situation in which taking control is an option.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby slinches » Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:47 pm UTC

idonno wrote:Adopting new policies and training has been the stall tactic for at the very least decades. We already have an open standardized set of rules called laws and the system refuses to properly prosecute them. Revising rules is not a viable solution when they are blatantly not being enforced.

The problem with just using the law is that it inherently has certain loopholes for police. They do sometimes have to do things in their jobs which would not be allowed for civilians, so there needs to be some exceptions that define where and when things like force, searches and detention are proper. The current setup defines the exceptions with a mishmash of laws, procedures and standards that aren't only complex but many are hidden or rely on data that aren't public. That makes the whole situation unauditable. And if you can't audit, you can't easily prove a pattern of wrongdoing except in the most egregious cases. The only way I see to resolve that problem is through transparency and public accountability.


ObsessoMom wrote:For any other officer watching that footage, the takeaway is probably, "Wow, screw my de-escalation and sensitivity training, I've just got to be hyper-vigilant and assume that any person I approach is armed, if I don't want to end up dead."

In many individuals, hyper-vigilance can lead to snap decisions based on stereotypes, and an obsession with taking aggressive control of any situation in which taking control is an option.

I think this is a good illustration of a key mechanism driving the growing animosity between the police and the public. The police see events like this and become over-reactive and aggressive which creates more of these events because they instill more fear in the populace, which makes people behave more defensively and erratically, which in turn causes the police to be more fearful and aggressive.

How do we break that cycle?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:32 pm UTC

Wait a minute, Sluggy.
You think the Police are justified in being fearful and aggressive.

We, the people, are justified in being fearful and aggressive!
The number of Murders committed by Police while getting paid is...beyond easy words.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:51 pm UTC

slinches wrote:I think this is a good illustration of a key mechanism driving the growing animosity between the police and the public. The police see events like this and become over-reactive and aggressive which creates more of these events because they instill more fear in the populace, which makes people behave more defensively and erratically, which in turn causes the police to be more fearful and aggressive.

How do we break that cycle?
I don't know -- but it's worth pointing out that the number of people killed by police in America every year ranges from a thousand to two thousand -- and the number of police killed (feloniously) rarely breaks fifty. One of these fears is based on reality. The other is not.

This implies that however you break the cycle, it involves changing the behaviour of police -- not the people being policed.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby slinches » Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:57 pm UTC

I wasn't trying to justify the behavior, only recognize that the effect is happening.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:00 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:This implies that however you break the cycle, it involves changing the behaviour of police -- not the people being policed.


The people being policed need change as well. Even when police ARE prosecuted they get off fairly frequently and that falls to the juries. Cops doing bad things to people who are viewed as steretypically bad (read: minorities) is also a big problem with trying to hold police accountable.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:16 am UTC

slinches wrote:I wasn't trying to justify the behavior, only recognize that the effect is happening.
Oh, I didn't take it that way; I just felt the need to point this out (that however the cycle is broken, it won't be done through changing civilian behavior -- but police behavior).
Chen wrote:The people being policed need change as well. Even when police ARE prosecuted they get off fairly frequently and that falls to the juries. Cops doing bad things to people who are viewed as steretypically bad (read: minorities) is also a big problem with trying to hold police accountable.
This probably has a lot to do with the fact that police don't hold each other accountable -- and DAs rarely even bother to prosecute.

I don't think that finding a jury to convict is honestly as big of a problem as just investigating and prosecuting officers for criminal behavior in the first place. If our legal system treated police like civilians, it stands to reason juries would follow suit.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:50 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote: It won't be done through changing civilian behavior -- but police behavior.
(snip!) I agree!
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby slinches » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:03 am UTC

addams wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote: It won't be done through changing civilian behavior -- but police behavior.
(snip!) I agree!

It won't happen quickly, but civilian behavior will naturally follow as the police behavior changes. Though, it will take an outside influence to get those changes started.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:33 am UTC

slinches wrote:
addams wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote: It won't be done through changing civilian behavior -- but police behavior.
(snip!) I agree!

It won't happen quickly, but civilian behavior will naturally follow as the police behavior changes. Though, it will take an outside influence to get those changes started.
I'm outside;
What can I do to make this required change come to this Nation.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ObsessoMom » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:11 am UTC

Here in sunny San Diego, we currently have a Community Review Board of Police Practices that investigates police shootings and accusations of police misbehavior/abuse of authority/brutality. The CRB, appointed by the Mayor, is mostly a group of white retirees with ties to law enforcement. They almost always just rubber-stamp the recommendations of the police department's own Internal Affairs division (which pretty much all boil down to The Officer Was In The Right). The CRB's legal counsel is on loan from the City Attorney's office, and, as I pointed out before, the City Attorney also represents the City, and has the primary mission of limiting the City's liability. The CRB does not have subpoena power, so if the CRB wants to question an officer about a complaint, or even a shooting, and that officer doesn't want to talk to them (or if his or her boss doesn't like that idea), there's nothing the CRB can do about it.

In other words, they're toothless.

On Friday, the group Women Occupy San Diego submitted a proposed Charter Amendment to the City Clerk, which would replace the CRB with a more powerful and independent Commission on Police Practices. A summary:

Commission on Police Practices. The Executive Director of the Commission shall
be appointed by the Commission, subject to confirmation by the Council, and
shall thereafter serve at the direction and pleasure of the Commission. The
Commission may, in accordance with complaint and investigation procedures
provided by this Charter and by ordinance, subpoena witnesses, compel their
attendance and testimony, administer oaths and affirmations, take evidence and
require by subpoena the production of any books, papers, records, or other items
material to the performance of the Commission’s duties or exercise of its powers.
The Commission on Police Practices is required to retain its own legal counsel,
independent of the City Attorney, for legal support and guidance in carrying out
its duties and powers.


Some highlights from the text of the proposed Charter Amendment:

Spoiler:
A Commission on Police Practices is hereby established. The establishment of this Commission
supersedes the Community Review Board on Police Practices previously created by the San
Diego City Charter.

(1) The Commission on Police Practices is an independent Commission, not a
Board of the City of San Diego.

(2) The Commission is required to perform the following duties:

(A) the duty to investigate (1) all deaths occurring while a person is in the
custody of the Police Department of the City of San Diego; (2) all deaths
resulting from interaction with an officer of the Police Department of the
City of San Diego; and, (3) all police officer-related shootings. The
Commission shall have these duties whether or not a complaint has been
submitted. Such investigations must be conducted by investigators
independent of the San Diego Police Department;

(B) the duty to receive, register, review and evaluate all complaints made
against officers of the Police Department of the City of San Diego;

(C) the duty to review all findings and conclusions of the San Diego Police
Department arising from investigations of police misconduct. This review
must be conducted before any implementation of police officer discipline;

(D) the duty to review discipline decisions proposed by the Chief of Police (or
any other entity with the power to impose officer discipline) as a result of
any allegations of police misconduct prior to their implementation;

(E) the duty to evaluate the Police Department of the City of San Diego’s
compliance with federal, state, and local reporting laws and requirements;

(F) the duty to submit quarterly reports to the Mayor and City Council
regarding the exercise of the Commission’s duties and powers. Such
reports shall be public but may not disclose any information required to be
kept confidential by federal or state law; and,

(G) any additional duties established by ordinance and consistent with duties
established in this Section.

(3) The Commission may, at its discretion, exercise the following powers:

(A) the power to review, evaluate, and investigate all complaints against
officers of the San Diego Police Department;

In determining whether to investigate a matter that the Commission has
the power but not the duty to investigate, the Commission shall consider
whether the complaint arises from any of the following incidents:

(1) An incident in which the use of force by a San Diego police officer
against a person resulted in great bodily injury;

(2) Dishonesty by a San Diego police officer directly relating to the
reporting, investigation, or prosecution of a crime, or directly
relating to the reporting of, or investigation of misconduct by
another peace officer or custodial officer, including, but not limited
to, an allegation of perjury, false statements, filing false reports,
destruction, falsifying, or concealing of evidence;

(3) An incident that has generated substantial public interest or
concern; and,

(4) Any other incident the Commission deems is appropriate.

(B) the power to review, evaluate, and investigate upon receipt of a written
complaint all allegations of inappropriate sexual conduct, physical assault,
or domestic violence by officers of the San Diego Police Department as
well as any other allegations of concern about the San Diego Police
Department or its officers. In addition, for allegations of inappropriate
sexual conduct, physical assault, or domestic violence by officers of the
San Diego Police Department, the Commission shall have power to
review, evaluate, and investigate the allegations whether or not a written
complaint has been submitted;

(C) the power to review and evaluate the policies, procedures, practices, and
actions of the Police Department of the City of San Diego;

(D) the power to retain or employ (1) independent investigators to conduct
investigations; (2) policy analysts to evaluate the policies, procedures,
practices; and actions of the Police Department of the City of San Diego;
(3) individuals to evaluate the Police Department of the City of San
Diego’s compliance with federal, state, and local reporting laws and
requirements and, (4) such other staff as is appropriate;

(E) the power to subpoena witnesses, compel their attendance, administer
oaths and affirmations, take evidence and require by subpoena the
production of any books, papers, records, or other items material to the
performance of the Commission’s duties or exercise of its powers, subject
to the restrictions of applicable federal and state law;

(F) the power to make recommendations to the Police Department of the City
of San Diego on the discipline of individual officers against whom
complaints have been made or on whom the Commission has conducted
an investigation;

(G) the power to review and evaluate the administration of discipline arising
from sustained complaints and other matters investigated by the
Commission;

(H) the power to make specific recommendations to the Police Department of
the City of San Diego and the San Diego City Mayor on the policies,
procedures, practices and actions of the Police Department of the City of
San Diego; and,

(I) any additional powers established by ordinance and consistent with
powers established in this Section.

(4) All records or other materials of the San Diego Police Department relating to any
matter reviewed, evaluated, or investigated by the Commission on Police
Practices shall be made available to the Commission on Police Practices within
the restrictions of applicable federal and state law.

(5) The Commission on Police Practices must seek and receive legal advice from
independent legal counsel, not the Office of the City Attorney.

(6) Within 120 days of this amendment’s adoption, the Mayor and City Council must
establish and fund a sufficient and appropriate budget for the Commission that
will allow it to effectively carry out its duties and powers.

(7) Any provisions of the San Diego City Charter in conflict with this amendment are
hereby amended to conform to the terms of this amendment.

(8) Within 120 days of this amendment’s adoption, the San Diego City Council must
enact an ordinance which:

(A) details the duties and powers of the Commission on Police Practices;

(B) establishes the number, term and method for appointing members to the
Commission. Commission members must include at least two youth
members, who at the time of their appointments are at least eighteen but
less than twenty-one years old. The number, term and method established
by ordinance may differ from the number, term and method described in
Section 41 of the San Diego City Charter;

(C) establishes the circumstances and process under which a member of the
Commission may be removed from the Commission and establishes cause
for removal. The removal process established by ordinance may differ
from that described in Section 41 of the San Diego City Charter; and,

(D) does not interfere with the Commission’s authority to independently refer
a matter under investigation to the grand jury, district attorney, or any
other governmental agency authorized by law to investigate the activities
of a law enforcement agency.

(9) Within 120 days of this amendment’s adoption, the San Diego City Council must
repeal those ordinances or parts of ordinances pertaining to the Community
Review Board on Police Practices.

(10) At the time the amendment is adopted, the existing Community Review Board on
Police Practices is immediately dissolved. The members of the Community
Review Board on Police Practices at the time the amendment is adopted shall
immediately become the interim members of the Commission on Police Practices
and shall serve in that capacity until the San Diego City Council has enacted an
ordinance as described in paragraph (8) of this section and new members are
appointed to the Commission pursuant to the procedures established in that
ordinance. These interim members may, at their discretion, retain their staff
members from the Community Review Board on Police Practices to assist them in
their capacity as interim members of the Commission on Police Practices. Should
an interim member of the Commission resign before the San Diego City Council
has enacted an ordinance as described in paragraph (8) of this section and new
members are appointed to the Commission pursuant to the procedures established
in that ordinance, the position shall be considered vacant and eligible for the
Mayor to appoint and the City Council to confirm a new interim member, who
shall serve only until the new members are appointed.

(11) At the time the amendment is adopted, the Commission on Police Practices shall
be funded using the same funds at the same level as those designated for the
Community Review Board on Police Practices, and funding at this rate shall
continue until the Mayor and City Council have established and funded a
sufficient and appropriate budget for the Commission as required in paragraph (6)
of this section.


Now that's more like it.
Last edited by ObsessoMom on Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:25 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby slinches » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:24 am UTC

Interesting. Seems like it gives the board more teeth, but keeps the same people there? I guess the idea is that the Mayor will eventually appoint some people who want to apply a bit more scrutiny?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:47 am UTC

slinches wrote:Interesting. Seems like it gives the board more teeth, but keeps the same people there? I guess the idea is that the Mayor will eventually appoint some people who want to apply a bit more scrutiny?
well, They will have independent counsel.
But...That is a good Point.
Why keep the same people?

Did I miss the part where new members are found?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ObsessoMom » Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:16 am UTC

Yes, the same people who serve on the current CRB would transition to the CPP, although at least two youth members between the ages of 18 and 21 would be added.

But:

This Charter Amendment* would give the City Council the authority to pass an Ordinance** to set the "powers and duties" of the Commission; change the number of members (currently 23, plus up to 23 non-voting members from among whom replacements for the voting members are chosen); term (currently undefined, I think [correction:] one year--apparently renewable, since the longest-serving member seems to have been seated since 2006); and most importantly, the method for appointing members to the commission...plus come up with a list of the causes for which the City Council could remove members.

* Charter Amendments have to be voted on by the citizens, and in the City of San Diego that can only happen on a November ballot.

**Ordinances are much easier to change, because those are only voted on by the City Council, whenever they want.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby idonno » Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:46 pm UTC

slinches wrote:
idonno wrote:Adopting new policies and training has been the stall tactic for at the very least decades. We already have an open standardized set of rules called laws and the system refuses to properly prosecute them. Revising rules is not a viable solution when they are blatantly not being enforced.

The problem with just using the law is that it inherently has certain loopholes for police. They do sometimes have to do things in their jobs which would not be allowed for civilians, so there needs to be some exceptions that define where and when things like force, searches and detention are proper. The current setup defines the exceptions with a mishmash of laws, procedures and standards that aren't only complex but many are hidden or rely on data that aren't public. That makes the whole situation unauditable. And if you can't audit, you can't easily prove a pattern of wrongdoing except in the most egregious cases. The only way I see to resolve that problem is through transparency and public accountability.


I am not advocating for "just using the law". Punishing actual criminal offences is a minimum standard that if the system is not currently living up to. This demonstrates that rules are not going to fix the problem. I am not against fixing laws or increasing transparency. But given the fact that blatant extremely public transgressions get at most slap on wrist punishments, that is a bullshit argument for a solution. This is a stall tactic. It takes time to implement changes and time to check the results and then when it doesn't work because you have the same people sitting there obstructing everything, the proposed solution is policies and training. This is not a solution. It is the endless loop of a stall tactic. Any proposal that does not involve a direct plan on getting rid of the people that are currently not doing their job will not work.

ObsessoMom wrote:On Friday, the group Women Occupy San Diego submitted a proposed Charter Amendment to the City Clerk, which would replace the CRB with a more powerful and independent Commission on Police Practices. A summary:

I may have missed something but it doesn't look like it gives them the power to use outside counsel to prosecute. They probably need this to really have any chance of fixing things.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ObsessoMom » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:43 pm UTC

idonno wrote:
ObsessoMom wrote:On Friday, the group Women Occupy San Diego submitted a proposed Charter Amendment to the City Clerk, which would replace the CRB with a more powerful and independent Commission on Police Practices. A summary:

I may have missed something but it doesn't look like it gives them the power to use outside counsel to prosecute. They probably need this to really have any chance of fixing things.


I'm encouraged by the fact that the police union worked so hard to prevent a much more modest Charter Amendment from being placed on the November 2018 ballot. That one did not even include subpoena power, so any info the CPB was given would still have been censored by the Police Department's Internal Affairs division first. This independent commission will be even better, if the measure makes it onto the ballot. (It might have to be put there as a citizens' initiative, if the City Council is too chicken again.)

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:24 am UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:
idonno wrote:
ObsessoMom wrote:On Friday, the group Women Occupy San Diego submitted a proposed Charter Amendment to the City Clerk, which would replace the CRB with a more powerful and independent Commission on Police Practices. A summary:

I may have missed something but it doesn't look like it gives them the power to use outside counsel to prosecute. They probably need this to really have any chance of fixing things.


I'm encouraged by the fact that the police union worked so hard to prevent a much more modest Charter Amendment from being placed on the November 2018 ballot. That one did not even include subpoena power, so any info the CPB was given would still have been censored by the Police Department's Internal Affairs division first. This independent commission will be even better, if the measure makes it onto the ballot. (It might have to be put there as a citizens' initiative, if the City Council is too chicken again.)
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:42 pm UTC

Oof.

Image
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:54 pm UTC

What does this have to do with the thread? Can you provide context (ideally without quoting posting 10 more pages of the comic)?
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