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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:06 am UTC
by Mighty Jalapeno
How can you "absolutely believe" something that, a few words later, you describe to be "probable"?

Gmal, I know how you feel about cops (and if you've been paying attention to some of my stories, you'll know I largely agree with you about 'cops in general'), but you have no basis for assuming these specific police officers, while lacking ANY AND ALL INFORMATION ABOUT THEM WHATSOEVER, have implicitly been purposefully racist or oppressive. Dicks, I will be willing to accept, but not much further than that without some sort of evidence.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:16 am UTC
by TheGrammarBolshevik
gmalivuk wrote:Nah, I absolutely believe your cop family members probably have abused their power in racist and other oppressive ways, it's just never been contextually relevant for me to point that out.

Why is it contextually relevant now? Because sardia brought it up out of nowhere?

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:19 am UTC
by gmalivuk
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:How can you "absolutely believe" something that, a few words later, you describe to be "probable"?

Gmal, I know how you feel about cops (and if you've been paying attention to some of my stories, you'll know I largely agree with you about 'cops in general'), but you have no basis for assuming these specific police officers, while lacking ANY AND ALL INFORMATION ABOUT THEM WHATSOEVER, have implicitly been purposefully racist or oppressive. Dicks, I will be willing to accept, but not much further than that without some sort of evidence.
Where did I say "purposefully"?

If they're blindly supporting other abusive cops, they're being oppressive, whether or not they're abusive cops themselves.

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:Nah, I absolutely believe your cop family members probably have abused their power in racist and other oppressive ways, it's just never been contextually relevant for me to point that out.

Why is it contextually relevant now? Because sardia brought it up out of nowhere?
It's been brought up. It's currently being discussed. So yes, now it's contextually relevant.

Edit: And before anyone else tries to draw the connection, expecting "good cops" to hold accountable others in their own departments is not at all the same as expecting Muslims here to apologize for ISIS or expecting American Jews to keep Israeli Zionists in check.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:39 am UTC
by TheGrammarBolshevik
Well, sure, it's being discussed now that you've continued to talk about it. But I don't see why it needs continued discussion, instead of just acknowledging that sardia's comment was trollish and irrelevant and moving on.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:00 am UTC
by addams
morriswalters wrote:Here's the link. He has another lawyer.

The video has been viewed more than one million times on YouTube, but not by the officer’s mother.

Every one of them Large and small, had a Mom.


uumm. You two Up There in the Thread...
Stop that nonsense, Please.

Yeah..."My Daddy is The Best neurosurgeon in The World."
Translates to, My father and brother work in The System.

"I believe them to be Good Men.
I love them.

They are of my blood.
They make me safe."


The rest of us are being disagreeable, because:
They are not Our Family.
They are not Our Blood.

They do not often make us feel safe.
We haven't met very many of them.

I KNOW there are some pretty good guys, still.
Some keeping their heads down in Toxic Working Conditions.
Some making up teams of Good Guys in Departments that have some shit to be proud of, in these difficult Times.

We don't know your Blood Brothers.
We are fucking fed up with taking other people's word on it.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:30 am UTC
by sardia
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Well, sure, it's being discussed now that you've continued to talk about it. But I don't see why it needs continued discussion, instead of just acknowledging that sardia's comment was trollish and irrelevant and moving on.

My comments were crude, but they weren't irrelevant. KnightExemplar claimed to have some police officers as friends and family. When asked how many minorities the cops he knows abused; he got indignant. Judging by his indignation, KnightExemplar is claiming zero instances of abuse by the police officers he knows. He then refused to elaborate on the probability that those officers have looked the other way at police misconduct.
*Abuse defined as police brutality, racial profiling, preferential treatment of socioeconomic demographics, blue wall of silence, corruption, illegal search and seizure etc etc.

As to how certain we are. It depends on how institutionalized the abuse of power is. If it's as widespread as evidence indicates, then it's like asking a fish what water is. They don't even recognize the abuse as abuse.
PS There's no evidence that the police are being dicks, but there is evidence that they are abusing their powers.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:43 am UTC
by addams
KnightExemplar claimed to have some police officers as friends and family. When asked how many minorities the cops he knows abused; he got indignant.

Of course, she got indignant.
That like asking, "Have you stopped beating you wife?"

Now; Besides being Catty,
What are we going to Do about it?

It is the Training our ...Jailers have.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:08 am UTC
by KnightExemplar
gmalivuk wrote:If you lost respect for me because I'm unwilling to naively assume that the cops you know are magically "not like other girls cops", it wasn't respect I care about in the first place.


No gmal. I'm sad that the respect I thought you had of me this whole time has turned out to only be a figment of my imagination. I don't know what ever happened to you with cops in your past. But I truly did hope that conversation would be able to bring us together and share our experiences. I truly did. But as long as this topic remains emotionally charged, with direct, personal insults being levied against me, my family, and my friends... I will be unable to continue this conversation rationally.

There is a minimum level of respect two parties must have with each other if either side hopes to gain anything from a debate. And unfortunately, even the pretense of that level of respect has been shattered by your recent posts, and I am unable to think of any way to continue this discussion.

@sardia: I've got a few questions for you over PM. I'm still under the assumption that you perhaps don't understand the scope of my emotional reaction to your loaded question, and I'm hopeful that I can explain my feelings and why I'm reacting the way I am right now. I demanded an apology because I feel personally insulted by your loaded question. Furthermore, demanding a direct apology is the easiest way to communicate that I interpreted your post as a direct insult to me. Based on your most recent post, I'm beginning to think that maybe you just don't see the insult in the same manner that I do. If we can get over that, we can continue the police discussion where we left off.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:11 am UTC
by Zamfir

Sardia, gmalivuk, you're being obnoxiously rude there. And you know it. More of it, and you can leave the thread.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:22 am UTC
by leady
I always find it fascinating that people utterly opposed to generalisations (sometimes mindlessly so) are so quick to accept others on the most nebulous of evidence. One cop committing manslaughter (murder 2 in the US I think) is not in any way evidence of systemic and all pervasive police abuse.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:54 am UTC
by gmalivuk
And if this entire thread were about one cop committing manslaughter, you'd have a point.

Evidence of systematic and pervasive police abuse is what I consider evidence of systematic and pervasive police abuse. Any single incident could be removed from our memories and I'd still think that.

Or do you think we just coincidentally have video evidence of the *only* times cops have ever lied about murder to cover their own asses? Do you think Ferguson PD is the *only* one with a demonstrable history of racist abuse just because Ferguson PD is the only one the DoJ has investigated for that this year?

As cameras have become more ubiquitous, evidence for things like UFOs and Bigfoot have not increased, which suggests that those things aren't real phenomena. Evidence for police misconduct, on the other hand, is much more widespread now, suggesting that it is a phenomenon that has always existed at rates much higher than you people would like to admit.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:01 pm UTC
by elasto
leady wrote:I always find it fascinating that people utterly opposed to generalisations (sometimes mindlessly so) are so quick to accept others on the most nebulous of evidence. One cop committing manslaughter (murder 2 in the US I think) is not in any way evidence of systemic and all pervasive police abuse.


It's nearly 20 years ago that senior police officers in the UK admitted a problem with systemic and institutional racism, and we are far more community-policing-minded than our US equivalents. Personally I'd be amazed if there wasn't a systemic and pervasive problem over there.

David Wilmot, head of the second-largest force in England and Wales, made the declaration at a hearing of the Stephen Lawrence inquiry in Manchester. His attitude was in stark contrast to that of Sir Paul Condon, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, who steadfastly refused to recognise institutional racism within the Met when he appeared before the inquiry two weeks ago.

Mr Wilmot told the public inquiry: "We live in a society that has institutional racism, and Greater Manchester Police is no exception. We accept that we have a problem with some overt racism, and certainly that we have a problem with internalised racism."

...

Manchester was the inquiry's first stop on a regional tour aimed at taking the temperature in racially sensitive cities outside London and identifying lessons to be learnt from the Met's abortive investigation of the racist murder of Stephen Lawrence, an 18-year-old student, in 1993.

Manchester's large Afro-Caribbean and Asian communities suffer a high level of racial crime and harassment - an estimated 21,000 become victims each year - and have a history of chequered relations with the police.

Mr Wilmot is the first chief constable to have acknowledged institutional racism within his own force.

While most people in Greater Manchester Police were committed to eradicating racism, Mr Wilmot said, unconscious bigotry still affected the way officers dealt with individuals and situations, and there was "still some way to go in respect of the so-called canteen culture".


And the side-swipe that the hearing responded with is probably wisdom US police forces should be forced to hear:

Sir William Macpherson of Cluny, the inquiry chairman, responded with an oblique but unmistakable criticism of Sir Paul. "There is a reluctance to accept that it is there, which means that it will probably never be cured," he said.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:30 pm UTC
by morriswalters
That abuse and racism exist in Police Departments wasn't the point. The point is that you aren't guilty until proven innocent(at least in the US).
leady wrote:I always find it fascinating that people utterly opposed to generalisations (sometimes mindlessly so) are so quick to accept others on the most nebulous of evidence. One cop committing manslaughter (murder 2 in the US I think) is not in any way evidence of systemic and all pervasive police abuse.
The Police represent the population the are selected from. They can't help being what they are since the the population in general is racist. But that is generally true, not specifically true. That some Police are racist doesn't mean that all Police are Racist. Which is why racism in Policing is so hard to wipe out. Police abuse itself would exist outside of racism, and it isn't specific to the US. What is specific to the US is the cultural expectation of violence and the right to carry guns. People get shot because Police carry guns. And they carry guns because everyone does. To which you get to add in group bias, which again isn't specific to the Police.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:36 pm UTC
by gmalivuk
If I were a judge presiding over the criminal trial of a killer cop, innocent until proven guilty would be a relevant maxim.

Since I'm a civilian discussing whether some cops are racist in an Internet discussion, such a presumption isn't necessary or statistically warranted.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:37 pm UTC
by leady
I think its useful to make the distinction between low level lazy policing and ad hoc unacceptable events and the view not 4 posts earlier that all police are directly or knowledgeable of gross illegality. That is utter nonsense

There are 780000 LEOs in the states - so just by chance 10s of them are going to be truly evil people and 100s will react badly under stress. I would actually posit that rather than confirm the widespread abuse of the police, the prevalence of mobile recording devices and the infrequency of footage like this actually suggest that its far less common than people seem to be willing to accept.

The Macpherson report maybe be completely accurate, it may not be. What I can guarantee is that it couldn't present any other conclusion from the beginning.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:43 pm UTC
by gmalivuk
The fact that not every filmed instance of police brutality makes it to this thread and that you're not paying adequate attention on your own time does not mean it's actually as infrequent as you're making out.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:49 pm UTC
by leady
Yeah I recant my position, the 10s of videos in this thread absolutely prove that a sizeable proportion of 780000 LEOs are systemically doing similar things or covering them up.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:56 pm UTC
by gmalivuk
What part of "not every filmed instance of police brutality makes it to this thread" was confusing for you?

And apart from what exact fraction of cops actively engage in brutality, it's pretty telling that video evidence so consistently contradicts whatever story the cop in question came up with to cover his ass.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:05 pm UTC
by speising
gmalivuk wrote:What part of "not every filmed instance of police brutality makes it to this thread" was confusing for you?

And apart from what exact fraction of cops actively engage in brutality, it's pretty telling that video evidence so consistently contradicts whatever story the cop in question came up with to cover his ass.

telling of what?
that sounds like confirmation bias to me.
"the fact that all murderers claim innocence means that everyone who claims innocence is guilty of murder."

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:18 pm UTC
by morriswalters
gmalivuk wrote:If I were a judge presiding over the criminal trial of a killer cop, innocent until proven guilty would be a relevant maxim.

Since I'm a civilian discussing whether some cops are racist in an Internet discussion, such a presumption isn't necessary or statistically warranted.
Quite true. Of course you remove yourself from the pool of jury people who have to resolve these things when they end up in court since you couldn't say under oath that you could bring an unbiased mind to the table. Making you part of the problem. This brought to mind because I am looking at a Jury summons.
leady wrote:There are 780000 LEOs in the states - so just by chance 10s of them are going to be truly evil people and 100s will react badly under stress.
That really isn't the point. The fragmented nature of Police supervision in the US makes it possible for Police Departments to exist that are in total, racist and abusive. Ferguson for example. A number of Departments have ended up under Federal supervision. Again groups not individuals.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:38 pm UTC
by gmalivuk
speising wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:What part of "not every filmed instance of police brutality makes it to this thread" was confusing for you?

And apart from what exact fraction of cops actively engage in brutality, it's pretty telling that video evidence so consistently contradicts whatever story the cop in question came up with to cover his ass.

telling of what?
that sounds like confirmation bias to me.
"the fact that all murderers claim innocence means that everyone who claims innocence is guilty of murder."
I'm not seeing how you think the string of logic is the same in both cases.

The reason it's telling is that the objective evidence so often contradicts the cop's versi, and it's extremely improbable that cops are completely honest all the times there isn't video evidence.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:58 pm UTC
by Chen
gmalivuk wrote:The reason it's telling is that the objective evidence so often contradicts the cop's versi, and it's extremely improbable that cops are completely honest all the times there isn't video evidence.


But we never hear about the cases where a police dash cam catches a cop doing a perfectly normal arrest with nothing bad going on. That's not news. Going by media reports (this thread) is clearly going to show a lot of bad cop behavior. But it has a huge selection bias because good cop behavior, unless spectacular, does not make it into the media.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:00 pm UTC
by speising
Chen wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:The reason it's telling is that the objective evidence so often contradicts the cop's versi, and it's extremely improbable that cops are completely honest all the times there isn't video evidence.


But we never hear about the cases where a police dash cam catches a cop doing a perfectly normal arrest with nothing bad going on. That's not news. Going by media reports (this thread) is clearly going to show a lot of bad cop behavior. But it has a huge selection bias because good cop behavior, unless spectacular, does not make it into the media.

right, selection, not confirmation bias, that's what i meant...

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:39 pm UTC
by KrytenKoro
Chen wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:The reason it's telling is that the objective evidence so often contradicts the cop's versi, and it's extremely improbable that cops are completely honest all the times there isn't video evidence.


But we never hear about the cases where a police dash cam catches a cop doing a perfectly normal arrest with nothing bad going on. That's not news. Going by media reports (this thread) is clearly going to show a lot of bad cop behavior. But it has a huge selection bias because good cop behavior, unless spectacular, does not make it into the media.

Wait, what?

Yeah we do.

There's an entire long-running TV series solely based on that.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:45 pm UTC
by gmalivuk
Sure, there is selection bias in this thread, but the point still stands that it is statistically implausible that the cops are being honest every time they claim a suspect went for a weapon and there isn't video evidence to the contrary.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:29 pm UTC
by leady
that's trivially true over enough instances and adds extremely little as its not an argument anyone would accept for any other group.

No one believes bad cops don't exist, but interpreting many of the posts here, I can only conclude that people believe that its so prevalent as to warrant a re-examination of the burden of proof & they are not talking just about lazy police profiling. I mean what prevalence justifies that? 60, 70% +

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:54 pm UTC
by natraj
honestly i think it is sickening and horrendous that we don't, by default, already have a different burden of proof for cops than we do for the general public. we endow the cops with greater power, why on EARTH shouldn't greater examination of how they are using that power come with that automatically? why is it such an OUT-there idea to think, we have armed these people and given them power to kill us and detain us and violate our freedom in ways that would get other people put in jail -- if they exercise those powers it better darn well be with a pretty excellent and provable reason.

cops, when acting in their line of work as cops and not in their normal off-duty lives, should freaking well have a different burden of proof on their actions than normal civilian crime. that should just be part of the job description. if we're going to treat them as though they're civilians when it comes to proving their guilt or innocence in crime we can't have the double standard that comes up in every other aspect of how we treat Things Cops Do.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:00 pm UTC
by Fractal_Tangent
It's also interesting that when cops are aware that they're being watched (such as, with body cameras) their use of force drops significantly. I'm not sure if this has been pointed out already in this thread but it kind of hints to me that a large proportion of violence perpetrated by police forces is unnecessary.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:44 pm UTC
by gmalivuk
natraj wrote:cops, when acting in their line of work as cops and not in their normal off-duty lives, should freaking well have a different burden of proof on their actions than normal civilian crime. that should just be part of the job description. if we're going to treat them as though they're civilians when it comes to proving their guilt or innocence in crime we can't have the double standard that comes up in every other aspect of how we treat Things Cops Do.
They should, like almost every other job, have stricter restrictions on their job-related duties than the general population.

In reality, not only aren't they held to the same standards as civilians, they are usually held to weaker standards.

Before leady gets to worry about what if the mythical pendulum swinging too far the other way, let's see what kind of world it would be if we let it fall to the middle first.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:26 pm UTC
by KnightExemplar
elasto wrote:
leady wrote:I always find it fascinating that people utterly opposed to generalisations (sometimes mindlessly so) are so quick to accept others on the most nebulous of evidence. One cop committing manslaughter (murder 2 in the US I think) is not in any way evidence of systemic and all pervasive police abuse.


It's nearly 20 years ago that senior police officers in the UK admitted a problem with systemic and institutional racism, and we are far more community-policing-minded than our US equivalents. Personally I'd be amazed if there wasn't a systemic and pervasive problem over there.


http://www.cops.usdoj.gov/

There are top-down programs, as well as cops who consistently come onto CSPAN to decry situations such as Ferguson or South Carolina incidents. The UK definitely is more "community oriented" (IIRC, your cops don't carry guns). But there is definitely a big movement towards community oriented policing in the states.

Unlike UK, the USA has a federalized "bottom up" system. Our cops are built from cities and municipalities on upwards. There are federal cops (ie: DEA or FBI), but for the most part, the organization of the Police Forces of our country are left to the states. Rampant racism and injustice in one PD does not necessarily indicate racism and injustice in a neighboring police department.

You can see the web training modules here: http://www.cops.usdoj.gov/Default.asp?Item=2624

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:51 pm UTC
by Tyndmyr
natraj wrote:honestly i think it is sickening and horrendous that we don't, by default, already have a different burden of proof for cops than we do for the general public. we endow the cops with greater power, why on EARTH shouldn't greater examination of how they are using that power come with that automatically? why is it such an OUT-there idea to think, we have armed these people and given them power to kill us and detain us and violate our freedom in ways that would get other people put in jail -- if they exercise those powers it better darn well be with a pretty excellent and provable reason.

cops, when acting in their line of work as cops and not in their normal off-duty lives, should freaking well have a different burden of proof on their actions than normal civilian crime. that should just be part of the job description. if we're going to treat them as though they're civilians when it comes to proving their guilt or innocence in crime we can't have the double standard that comes up in every other aspect of how we treat Things Cops Do.


Well, I'd start by minimizing the extra power that cops have to the greatest possible degree. Yes, yes, they need certain powers of arrest somewhat beyond what a civilian has, I suppose(though contemplating ways to avoid that sounds like a fun challenge), but in practice, police have a great deal of extra power to the point where it can become nearly arbitrary.

I would prefer, as much as possible, to avoid the creation of a seperate class with different rights and powers.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:58 pm UTC
by natraj
oh, i am totally with you on that, i don't actually believe the cops should have all the power that they do have in the least. i am just saying that since we are currently in a situation where we give them that power it is dangerous and nonsensical to act as though, having all that power, they still need to only be held to the same standards of proof as everyone else (and, as gmal noted, in actual practice we hold them to a lower standard of proof even.)

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:21 am UTC
by leady
the best way to reduce police violence (both the overkill and very wrong types) is to reduce all the crappy laws that trigger these escalations. The last two big ones have essentially been killed for avoiding Tabaco tax & non-payment of child support. People should realise that the end conclusion of every law passed is potentially an escalation to a lethal scenario.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:25 am UTC
by KnightExemplar
Not really. Crappy laws stay on the books for extremely long periods of time. Any particular person is on the books for federal law, state law, and municipal law at the same time. And the further down you go in the system, the less organized and "crappier" laws get. In fact, some municipalities don't even publish their laws online... and yet expect everyone to know them.

Police Training Programs, such as sensitivity training and deescalation techniques, need to be taken seriously.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 2:55 pm UTC
by Tyndmyr
leady wrote:the best way to reduce police violence (both the overkill and very wrong types) is to reduce all the crappy laws that trigger these escalations. The last two big ones have essentially been killed for avoiding Tabaco tax & non-payment of child support. People should realise that the end conclusion of every law passed is potentially an escalation to a lethal scenario.


That'd certainly be a start. Less conflict to begin with should reduce undesirable outcomes of conflict. We'll definitely still need other things as well, of course, as cops can create conflict without a law actually even being violated to begin with.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:26 pm UTC
by Diemo
leady wrote:the best way to reduce police violence (both the overkill and very wrong types) is to reduce all the crappy laws that trigger these escalations. The last two big ones have essentially been killed for avoiding Tabaco tax & non-payment of child support. People should realise that the end conclusion of every law passed is potentially an escalation to a lethal scenario.


This is bullshit. The last two people were not killed due to the Tobacco tax, or due to the non-payment of child support, unless you can point out all of the other people who have been killed due to these laws.

As far as I can tell, what happens is that the police escalate a situation until someone dies. This is not the fault of the law, and it is not the fault of the victim. It is the fault of the police. And we are not going to solve this problem by changing one crappy little law, or even by changing lots of crappy little laws, because it is not the law's fault that these tragedies occur.

Now, I am willing to argue about why the police escalate the situation. It could be due to poor training, like an article I recently read on these fora suggested. It could be due to implicit or explicit racism in the police forces. It could be due to the fact that some people are assholes and the police force is going to contain it's own share of them. Or it could be for any number of reasons not elucidated here. But it is important to look at the cause of the problem when you are looking for solutions, and the cause of the problem is the escalation of police encounters, not the reason for those encounters in the first place.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:07 pm UTC
by morriswalters
Diemo wrote:This is bullshit. The last two people were not killed due to the Tobacco tax, or due to the non-payment of child support, unless you can point out all of the other people who have been killed due to these laws.
That isn't what he said. He said the events were triggered by the laws. Had the police not been enforcing those laws than the events that followed would never have occurred. The killings resulted from a chain of events and poor or non existent judgements. Break the chain at any point and improve the choices that everyone made before the consequences became irreversible, and the deaths may never have occurred. Changing the law or improving the overall training of the police give you more breakpoints that remove the need to retroactively decide who shoulders the greater portion of the blame because someone ended up dead.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:32 pm UTC
by sardia
morriswalters wrote:
Diemo wrote:This is bullshit. The last two people were not killed due to the Tobacco tax, or due to the non-payment of child support, unless you can point out all of the other people who have been killed due to these laws.
That isn't what he said. He said the events were triggered by the laws. Had the police not been enforcing those laws than the events that followed would never have occurred. The killings resulted from a chain of events and poor or non existent judgements. Break the chain at any point and improve the choices that everyone made before the consequences became irreversible, and the deaths may never have occurred. Changing the law or improving the overall training of the police give you more breakpoints that remove the need to retroactively decide who shoulders the greater portion of the blame because someone ended up dead.

That' doesn't sound right. Why does it matter what law the officer used to pulled you over? If you had a broken taillight or a warrant due to child support, escalation can happen. Can you provide an example of a law to repeal? Or is this a reference to the anti-drug laws?

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:37 pm UTC
by Diemo
That is exactly what he said.

leady wrote:the best way to reduce police violence (both the overkill and very wrong types) is to reduce all the crappy laws that trigger these escalations.


In this quote leady is claiming that the primary reason for these situations is the crappy laws which trigger the escalation to violence. This is bullshit. If it was not the avoidance of tax, it would be another crappy law. The problem lies not within the law itself, but in the officers who escalate the situation (or who allow the situation to escalate) to violence.

morriswalters wrote:Had the police not been enforcing those laws than the events that followed would never have occurred. The killings resulted from a chain of events and poor or non existent judgements. Break the chain at any point and improve the choices that everyone made before the consequences became irreversible, and the deaths may never have occurred. Changing the law or improving the overall training of the police give you more breakpoints that remove the need to retroactively decide who shoulders the greater portion of the blame because someone ended up dead.


I do not think that this is correct. Had the police not been enforcing the specific law in each case then that case would not have occurred. However, it seems obvious to me that a similar case would have occurred. This seems obvious because there are a multitude of different cases where people have been shot by the police, and the reason for the initial escalation is different for many of the cases. This means that the initial reason for the escalation is not responsible for the situation.

I think you also have to be careful when you say that you should improve the choice that everyone made. This is coming close to blaming the victim for being shot, which is definitely wrong. The fault here lies with the cops who killed people who were not a clear and direct threat. Trying to make it about something else means that the issue will never be solved, because you are trying to solve a symptom, not the disease.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:02 pm UTC
by leady
I hate to break it to you but the entire purpose of the police is to escalate to force compliance to social rules, you can quibble at the pace and means at certain points but not the end state.

You can argue that to an extent some cops would still manufacture reasons to shake things up, but its pretty apparent that without the almost certain arrest and imprisonment of that last victims due to his inability to pay child support, then he doesn't run, fight the cop, run off again then get shot 8 times in the back.

Its the nature of police action to leverage minor wrong doing to trap greater offences, rightly or wrongly