Police misbehavior thread

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maybeagnostic
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby maybeagnostic » Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:05 am UTC

I don't mean to turn this into an argument but it strikes me as a weird spin to put on the story. Everyone at the sheriff's office resigned so presumably they were all "good cops" and they are protesting against some kind of political pressure coming from outside the police force, right? I can't actually read the article or any of the other top results on google as the sites are blocked for the EU.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:02 am UTC

By being good cops, they ceased to be cops. I should also note the difference between "being good" in this instance and being a "good cop" in general; if this is where they drew the line, where did they not draw the line?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:48 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:By being good cops, they ceased to be cops. I should also note the difference between "being good" in this instance and being a "good cop" in general; if this is where they drew the line, where did they not draw the line?

It's the eternal dilemma of whether it does more good fighting the system from within or without.

Maybe they were good cops before too, but felt that things were more likely to improve if they stayed and fought. Or maybe they just turned a blind eye. It's not always objectively obvious (or even distinguishable).

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:02 pm UTC

the point is that the system itself is there to protect property over lives and to uphold The Law without consideration for its human cost. the entire job of the police is to enforce this system. maybe, possibly, a cop will get lucky in their career and literally never have to make the choice of "do i uphold the law or do i treat this person with humanity, dignity, and compassion" but that's vanishingly unlikely given that the way the laws are written have measurable detrimental impact that disproportionately affects those who are already marginalized, which means people's entire lives can be ruined over something like a busted taillight or a minor arrest for a crime they are in fact innocent of.

and a cop who chooses to put people first and ignore the laws is not "a good cop" they're just being a decent human being in violation of their directive as a cop, just like these people in this story chose to be decent human beings in violation of their jobs as police.

anyway more cop news is a member of identity evropa working as a resource officer in schools. please ignore the redundant headline, what they meant to say was that this man was part of a second white nationalist group above and beyond joining the police force. gosh am i glad we're spending all this money and effort putting white supremacists with guns in charge of our children, and i'm sure that these things have literally zero impact on the incredibly disproportionate criminalization of black and brown children!
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:32 pm UTC

Interesting legal question. Being a racist is not in itself illegal, nor is it illegal to be a member of The Neo White National Post-Pagan Alliance for Human Biodiversity, but is there a legal way to bar people who are part of probably problematic but not technically illegal organizations from joining the police force that doesn't also open the doors for banning people for being members of, say, the Freemasons or any other allegedly bad group?

I know in the private sector, you can have some clause requiring all employees or professionals using your designations to properly represent your corporate values, and then fire anyone who joins a hate group. Problem is, in the government sector I'm not so sure what they can and can't do.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby cphite » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:46 pm UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:I don't mean to turn this into an argument but it strikes me as a weird spin to put on the story. Everyone at the sheriff's office resigned so presumably they were all "good cops" and they are protesting against some kind of political pressure coming from outside the police force, right? I can't actually read the article or any of the other top results on google as the sites are blocked for the EU.


Cops are people - there are good ones and there are bad ones.

These folks demonstrated, at least in this instance, being good ones.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:03 pm UTC

They demonstrated being good people by not being cops. There was not an option for them to be cops and be good that they could see.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:44 am UTC

Zohar wrote:They demonstrated being good people by not being cops. There was not an option for them to be cops and be good that they could see.


To be fair here the fault and badness of the situation is due to the judge who gave this order and not the police force. Ostensibly the judge could give this order to any public servants, its just that in this case it was police. Consider ordering firefighters to return people to a building with a carbon monoxide leak. If the fire fighters resigned you wouldnt make any links to the fact there was no option of being good people while being fire fighters.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:50 am UTC

The firefighters would never be ordered to put people in danger like that, so the point is moot. That the cops would be expected to put people's lives in danger without question is systemic.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:29 am UTC

Uh, what about when firefighters refuse to put out a fire because the owner of the home owed back taxes to the department?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:33 am UTC

Pretty sure the house was empty.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby PAstrychef » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:37 am UTC

If human life is at risk, the fire is dealt with. The stories you hear about departments refusing to save houses are all empty structure fires.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:41 am UTC

That infamous case had pets in the house. Not human lives, but not exactly empty.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:00 am UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:More good news, among the bad news: yesterday, the majority of a law enforcement department demonstrated that they have consciences, and backbones:

Nowata County sheriff, undersheriff, deputies resign over jail controversy

NOWATA, Oklahoma - The Nowata County Sheriff and all of her patrol deputies resigned Monday, rather than obey an order to move prisoners back into the county jail, which was closed after a carbon monoxide leak was discovered. The Sheriff said no repairs had been made and the order would jeopardize the lives of prisoners. “I believe in doing the right thing and I am not going to stand down from doing the right thing” said Barnett.

[...]

The Undersheriff, five deputies, the head dispatcher, the jailers, and even the K-9, “Ranger” quit. His handler worked to get a paw print on a resignation letter. Several volunteer dispatchers said they plan to stay and answer the phones, though the office is otherwise empty. The Sheriff said she leaves with her honor intact. “I will not sweep things under the rug for Nowata County, I am not going to do the wrong thing,” she said.
natraj wrote:just feel like it's important to highlight in stories like those that the option was between "endanger people's lives" or "don't be a cop at all". which is what we mean when we say all cops are bastards! this isn't a story of Good Cops, it's a story about how it's literally impossible to be a good cop
Yep. This is not an uncommon problem.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:13 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:That infamous case had pets in the house. Not human lives, but not exactly empty.

Pets are property under the law, no? Valuable sentimental property, but property nonetheless.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:37 am UTC

Doesn't the US have animal cruelty laws? Certainly you can be jailed in the UK for torturing a dog, say.

One would think that being burned alive would count as torture...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby solune » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:03 am UTC

elasto wrote:Doesn't the US have animal cruelty laws? Certainly you can be jailed in the UK for torturing a dog, say.

One would think that being burned alive would count as torture...


AFAIK the US doesn't have Duty To Rescue laws: you're not obligated to save someone. And you're definitely not obligated to risk your life to save someone.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:41 pm UTC

i love that cu just goes ahead and equates firefighters electing not to save someone's fucking dog to the systemic and state sponsored violence that police routinely perpetrate against marginalized people, id say it's not common that someone shows their racist priorities so clearly but lbrh cu does it all the time
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:18 pm UTC

solune wrote:AFAIK the US doesn't have Duty To Rescue laws: you're not obligated to save someone. And you're definitely not obligated to risk your life to save someone.

So firefighters in the US can get off scot-free letting people burn alive in a fire simply because they haven't paid their taxes? There'd be no legal comeback at all?

(Note: I didn't say they'd actually do that, merely that they could choose to do that if they wanted, and the law wouldn't care)

Wow!

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:05 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:The firefighters would never be ordered to put people in danger like that, so the point is moot. That the cops would be expected to put people's lives in danger without question is systemic.


Why wouldn't they be ordered to? It could be something like orderlies in a state run old folks home as well. The point is in this case it was prisoners under the care of the police being put into a dangerous position by a judge's order. It could have been any people under the care of a government organization put into a dangerous position by a judges order. It has nothing to inherently do with policing in this particular case.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:06 pm UTC

natraj wrote:i love that cu just goes ahead and equates firefighters electing not to save someone's fucking dog to the systemic and state sponsored violence that police routinely perpetrate against marginalized people, id say it's not common that someone shows their racist priorities so clearly but lbrh cu does it all the time


Wow, way to mischaracterize me and what I'm saying dood.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:08 pm UTC

elasto wrote:(Note: I didn't say they'd actually do that, merely that they could choose to do that if they wanted, and the law wouldn't care)

No, they can't. Read any of the posts after that one that describes why that's a bullshit argument.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:22 pm UTC

Any of the posts after which one? My one?

Apologies, I can't see any recent posts describing the legal obligations of firefighters in your country?

(And it was a genuine question because I'm not American, there was no need to jump down my throat!)

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby cphite » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:12 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:They demonstrated being good people by not being cops. There was not an option for them to be cops and be good that they could see.


They demonstrated being good people by refusing an order that would endanger inmates in their custody. The bad actor in this situation was the judge who issued the court order. They, being good cops, decided that they could not in good conscience follow the order. They couldn't see an option to be good cops in that situation so they resigned.

In all likelihood most if not all of these people will be cops again, in some other department; and if their actions here are any indication, they'll continue to be good cops.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:30 pm UTC

elasto wrote:Any of the posts after which one? My one?

Apologies, I can't see any recent posts describing the legal obligations of firefighters in your country?

(And it was a genuine question because I'm not American, there was no need to jump down my throat!)

First, I'm not American, I just live there. Second, here are quotes from the next four posts immediately after the one I quoted. I'm not jumping down your throat for not knowing how things work in the US, but because you didn't bother reading.
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Thesh wrote:Pretty sure the house was empty.

PAstrychef wrote:If human life is at risk, the fire is dealt with. The stories you hear about departments refusing to save houses are all empty structure fires.

CorruptUser wrote:That infamous case had pets in the house. Not human lives, but not exactly empty.

sardia wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:That infamous case had pets in the house. Not human lives, but not exactly empty.

Pets are property under the law, no? Valuable sentimental property, but property nonetheless.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:54 pm UTC

cphite wrote:Cops are people - there are good ones and there are bad ones.

The good ones stop being cops or they stop being good. "Good cops" don't stay both.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ucim » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:03 pm UTC

To those who say it's impossible by definition to be good and be a cop, how do you propose that laws be enforced? Or do you propose that laws not be enforced (or equivalently, that there be no laws at all)?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:08 pm UTC

I suppose there's a philosophical issue here.

Cops, by virtue of their job, cause harm to others. For the most part, this harm reduces the total harm done to society.

Is someone who does a bad thing with a good overall result a good person? Is it morally alright to do bad things to bad people?


It's entirely possible for someone to be a net positive yet still be terrible. For instance, society wouldn't properly function without debt collectors, but you'd be hard pressed to find just a single one of them that isn't a terrible, shitty person who deserves nothing but scorn.
Last edited by CorruptUser on Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:10 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby mashnut » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:08 pm UTC

ucim wrote:To those who say it's impossible by definition to be good and be a cop, how do you propose that laws be enforced? Or do you propose that laws not be enforced (or equivalently, that there be no laws at all)?

Jose


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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:10 pm UTC

natraj wrote:i love that cu just goes ahead and equates firefighters electing not to save someone's fucking dog to the systemic and state sponsored violence that police routinely perpetrate against marginalized people, id say it's not common that someone shows their racist priorities so clearly but lbrh cu does it all the time
oh....
violence that police routinely perpetrate against marginalized people
yes...
This is, just, one example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAPBOWJYGM4
It is depressing only one minute will give you the idea.

If you use your Google-foo you can find Preet Bharara recommending the closure of Rikers Island.
Not only are murders of caged humans all too common, violence against, most likely, innocent minors at Rikers is an open secret.

edit: umm...Trump fired Mr. Bharara.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:14 pm UTC

many people who are in favor of abolishing the police are also in favor of abolishing large swaths of our current system and replacing it entirely. generally with something that is focused on restoration rather than punishment. in our current system, there is no possible way to enforce our laws without either purposeful or incidental brutality, because the system itself is racist and slanted to fuck over poor people and minorities.

without transforming our society as a whole, there can be no good policing. i do not think that the fact that society will not change overnight is an excuse to directly intentionally take on a role that is definitionally, violently supporting a racist system.

in a world i would like to see, the role of Police as The Arbiters Of State Violence would be nonsensical. it is extremely difficult for people who envision capitalism & a violently oppressive state power to conceive of that whatsoever, though, so instead you get these dumbass questions of well if the police didn't brutalize folks on behalf of the unjust oppressive and clearly immutable legal system we've decided on, then who will?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:16 pm UTC

Could you give an example of this system occurring on a large scale, rather than any hypothetical?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:18 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Could you give an example of this system occurring on a large scale, rather than any hypothetical?

Crack laws? The drug war in general? The FBI treatment of civil rights movement?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:20 pm UTC

No, of the proposed system. Not our current shitty one.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:22 pm UTC

ucim wrote:To those who say it's impossible by definition to be good and be a cop, how do you propose that laws be enforced? Or do you propose that laws not be enforced (or equivalently, that there be no laws at all)?

Unjust laws should not exist or be enforced.

I don't see anyone saying, "It is definitionally impossible to be a good person enforcing any hypothetical set of rules you could possibly imagine."

As for how (just) laws should be enforced, I've gotta believe that question is somewhat rhetorical on your part, or that you've got a piss-poor memory, because this thread has been here longer than you have and I'm pretty sure that's been discussed repeatedly every other time someone before you has asked "well who's going to show up and shoot someone ~prevent crime~ if not for the police?!?".
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:24 pm UTC

i have corruptuser foed so i only see his replies when someone feels the need to quote him and inflict his bigotry on me. and it's nearly always something so mind bogglingly ignorant, inane, and racist im not even sure how he is still here at all.

anyway, if at this point you need citations in systemic racism in our legal system and think it's all just "hypothetical", you are both so stunningly obtuse ABC wilfully committed to your own racism that there's no point whatsoever having a discussion with you. it has been shown repeatedly, with numerous citations, across plenty of discussions on this very forum that cu has been a part of, the fact that our legal system in the us carries enormous racial bias. pretending like this is new or fabricated is such a depth of intellectual dishonesty that the only possible reason for it at this point is a determined commitment to denying the material reality of black people in this country.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:25 pm UTC

Again, of your proposed hypothetical system in action.

Welcome to my foe list as well.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:26 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Could you give an example of this system occurring on a large scale, rather than any hypothetical?

natraj wrote:it is extremely difficult for people who envision capitalism & a violently oppressive state power to conceive of that whatsoever, though, so instead you get these dumbass questions of well if the police didn't brutalize folks on behalf of the unjust oppressive and clearly immutable legal system we've decided on, then who will?


If you can give an example of capitalism and violently oppressive state power working well on a large sclae (not just better than in the US, but in an actually positive way), then we'll talk. Otherwise it's not really fair to always demand well-functioning large scale examples of one option when the prevailing alternative has never worked very well for most people, either.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:33 pm UTC

ucim wrote:To those who say it's impossible by definition to be good and be a cop, how do you propose that laws be enforced? Or do you propose that laws not be enforced (or equivalently, that there be no laws at all)?

Jose


If you want to address the problem with cops, you need a system that isn't maintained primarily by violence and instead address root causes, and that means making significant social changes. Do I need to go further, or have you gotten to the point that you can dismiss it with "America #1 and therefore we should just keep doing what we are doing"?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:46 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:If you can give an example of capitalism and violently oppressive state power working well on a large sclae (not just better than in the US, but in an actually positive way), then we'll talk. Otherwise it's not really fair to always demand well-functioning large scale examples of one option when the prevailing alternative has never worked very well for most people, either.


I'd say the American system actually is working well for most, but the cracks in the system might as well be canyons.

As for best system, by what metric are we going by? Life expectancy, Gini Index, whatever the "happiness" index is? Gini is weird, would not want to live in Ukraine, but by life expectancy and happiness the Nordic system seems to be working pretty well.


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