Police misbehavior thread

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:36 am UTC

solune wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:What do you mean "whether or not"? The answer has been "not" for a long time now.


What I mean is that in the cop's mind (and maybe in his training), letting him run away is clearly not an option, while getting his gun out is an intellectually easy option to take. The common point to a lot of these videos is that the cops seem to believe that they may shoot a fleeing man.

Given that they always seem to lie about the details to add something more than just "fleeing", I'd say most of them know damn well they can't.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:03 pm UTC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleeing_f ... e#U.S._law

Here we seem to have the standard of being able to use lethal force only if there is probably cause to believe the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others.

I'd bet that the officer's defense will be that he thought the drunk driver fleeing in his vehicle would be a threat to others.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby DSenette » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:25 pm UTC

Chen wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleeing_felon_rule#U.S._law

Here we seem to have the standard of being able to use lethal force only if there is probably cause to believe the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others.

I'd bet that the officer's defense will be that he thought the drunk driver fleeing in his vehicle would be a threat to others.

well in the initial police report, he claimed to have shot him because he was being dragged by the car
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:18 pm UTC

DSenette wrote:well in the initial police report, he claimed to have shot him because he was being dragged by the car


Yes and I'm sure that lying and changing his story will work against him. I'm still pretty sure the argument about a drunk driver being dangerous to others will be what any defense attorney would use to try and get him off. Assuming he doesn't plead out or something.

edit: It does seem by the precedent in that case, police officers WOULD be able to shoot fleeing drunk drivers. I'm not sure how I feel about that. On one hand it seems to make sense in keeping the public protected. On the other death is far harsher than any legal penalty we have for drunk driving. Hell even drunk driving causing death doesn't lead to the death penalty (or anything even close). I guess ideally you'd want to be able to setup some sort of roadblock up ahead and ensure there weren't any other people on the road. Depending on the area that may or may not be feasible I guess.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:03 pm UTC

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryla ... tml#page=1

Following up on Baltimore since the protests: roughly 116 murders have taken place between May and July (in the 3 months following the protests). Former Police Commissioner Anthony Batts was let go a month ago, and the situation continues to look like its getting worse.

Maybe it isn't related to the protests however. Correlation =/= causation and all that. Furthermore, many other cities have had increases in violence this year.

Davis plans to attend a summit of major police chiefs in Washington this week to discuss the causes and solutions for a national increase in killings. He listed homicide increases in Washington, New York, Chicago, Dallas, Milwaukee, New Orleans, St. Louis and San Antonio to make the point that the violence isn't isolated to Baltimore.


In general, the summer months are the peak when murders / violent crimes happen. Nonetheless, the violent uptick this year goes above and beyond what is normal. Current theories argue that Police around the country are a bit demoralized (especially in New York and Baltimore, where major protests have taken place). In Baltimore, the "clearance rate" for violent crimes is down to ~35%, down from the mid 40%s. So the Police are definitely not performing as well as they used to.

I'm leaning towards protests demorlized Police, and Police aren't arresting as many violent offenders... and said violent offenders repeat more attacks before they are finally caught. For Baltimore specifically, the looted drugs from the burnt down CVS was blamed by Anthony Batts (at least while he was still Police Commissioner) as causing additional violence.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:18 pm UTC

Yeah, well, someone had to fall on a sword for the mess, I guess.

Feds have sent in more officers to help out with the murder spree, but yeah, nothing seems to be improving. You'll note that in Baltimore, enforcement is *really* gun centric. The police chief is notoriously anti-gun, and you'll note that a lot of this fed support is really gun centric as well. But...guns aren't the cause here. There has been no increased access to firearms(on the contrary, the recent history of firearm laws in MD has been one of increased restriction). Police demoralization is probably present, but I also can't see that as a sufficient explanation. The murder rate jump seems too large for the lowered clearance rate to explain and frankly, the causality likely works the other way around. Increasing crime rates make it harder to keep up.

I suspect it's at least partially growing demoralization/disenchantment within the city. There's not really any faith that the police are actually better...the problem just doesn't seem to be fixed in any real way. Sure, some cops got indicted. One guy got fired. But the system hasn't really changed in a way that's convincing for avoiding future abuses.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:37 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:I suspect it's at least partially growing demoralization/disenchantment within the city. There's not really any faith that the police are actually better...the problem just doesn't seem to be fixed in any real way. Sure, some cops got indicted. One guy got fired. But the system hasn't really changed in a way that's convincing for avoiding future abuses.


The majority of the killings are your typical gang-violence type however. The type that's "This guy shot these other guys, because those guys shot at him 2 years ago". The shooting that happened yesterday was your typical mugging (shot the guy and take his money). Baltimore is up to like 15+ incidents of gunshot wounds in the first 3 days of August. The efficacy of cops plays a direct role in deterring crimes like these. If people aren't scared of the cops, they'll do what they want.

Historically, this sort of stuff leads to "tough on crime" stances, except that is no longer politically savory. The Baltimore Police don't really have the community backing them, so they are not going to be able to start any "tough on crime" initiative in these conditions.

IMO, its more that criminals are taking advantage of the lower Police morale (and their lower efficacy). They see this as the chance to get their revenge in gang violence... or that right now is a good time to mug people. I just got back from Otakon a few weeks ago, and I can't say I remember the last time I remember scammers actually walking into the convention center during the convention. Typically, those scammers are begging money / selling stolen goods like a bit further back from the Inner Harbor, but they definitely seemed to be a bit more aggressive this year.

I know that's more or less "small crime" stuff, but I'm imagining that as the small-scale little crimes get more aggressive, the more violent offenders similarly are getting more aggressive in the city. Thoughts?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:53 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:I suspect it's at least partially growing demoralization/disenchantment within the city. There's not really any faith that the police are actually better...the problem just doesn't seem to be fixed in any real way. Sure, some cops got indicted. One guy got fired. But the system hasn't really changed in a way that's convincing for avoiding future abuses.


The majority of the killings are your typical gang-violence type however. The type that's "This guy shot these other guys, because those guys shot at him 2 years ago". The shooting that happened yesterday was your typical mugging (shot the guy and take his money). Baltimore is up to like 15+ incidents of gunshot wounds in the first 3 days of August. The efficacy of cops plays a direct role in deterring crimes like these. If people aren't scared of the cops, they'll do what they want.

Historically, this sort of stuff leads to "tough on crime" stances, except that is no longer politically savory. The Baltimore Police don't really have the community backing them, so they are not going to be able to start any "tough on crime" initiative in these conditions.

IMO, its more that criminals are taking advantage of the lower Police morale (and their lower efficacy). They see this as the chance to get their revenge in gang violence... or that right now is a good time to mug people. I just got back from Otakon a few weeks ago, and I can't say I remember the last time I remember scammers actually walking into the convention center during the convention. Typically, those scammers are begging money / selling stolen goods like a bit further back from the Inner Harbor, but they definitely seemed to be a bit more aggressive this year.

I know that's more or less "small crime" stuff, but I'm imagining that as the small-scale little crimes get more aggressive, the more violent offenders similarly are getting more aggressive in the city. Thoughts?


Eh, Baltimore police have never been terribly efficient, IMO. However, you did have something of a public display of timidity in terms of police response to the riots. Not that they should have been going nuts, mind you...but just sitting back and watching stuff get trashed probably promotes a lack of respect for police. Folks don't feel like they can rely on the police for protection(to an even greater degree than usual), and I suppose criminals feel emboldened.

And yeah, usually Inner Harbor is kinda kept fairly "clean", as lots of resources are poured into that, being the "nice part of town" and what not. The bad stuff always exists, but it's usually confined to certain areas.

I see it more as existing police incompetence/lack of efficacy being exposed, and that as a shared cause for...all of the above, really. And the more crimes that happen as a result, the less capable the police are of even appearing to be on top of them, so it's at least slightly self-perpetuating. There are always far, far less police than the general population, so the public perception of competence plays a huge role. Once faith is lost, it's hard to get it back.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:13 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:The Baltimore Police don't really have the community backing them, so they are not going to be able to start any "tough on crime" initiative in these conditions.


I think you've put your finger on the problem, right there. There has essentially been a complete breakdown in community-police relations, which are essential to good policing.

It's always a problem when the citizens refuse to help the police; and that problem gets worse if the police are perceived to be abusive. But in this case, the problem looks to me to be bilateral: Not only do the citizens refuse to help the police, but the police are refusing to seek help from the citizens. ("Let them all go to h*ll.")

Root cause: police abuses, with feedback via legal process against the police. Consequence: exploding crime rate (murder is just the most prominent indicator).
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:17 am UTC

IIRC, Anthony Batts was brought on to reduce police abuses. Crime has only gotten worse as he attempted to fix the problem... enough so that he got fired. Indeed, part of the reason why the six officers got charged with a crime is because Anthony Batts, Rawling Blake, and Mosby all worked together to make an example of those six officers.

I don't believe the previous Baltimore Commissioner (Frederick H. Bealefeld) would have indicted those officers.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:12 am UTC

Maybe those officers deserved to be made an example of. At best they showed a callous disregard for the man in their custody. At worst it was murder. All we can do is let the process work. It's unreasonable to think that the consequences aren't going to be complex. This situation took a long time brewing and it will take a long time to correct itself.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:37 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:IIRC, Anthony Batts was brought on to reduce police abuses.


So a lot of people will figure that, *snap* just like that everything should be solved. If it isn't Anthony Batts should be fired, for being an "incompetent clown."

But Baltimore is not a TV show, with all the years spent obliterating community-police relations, by way of abuse and arrogance, all resolved neatly by some "hero" just before the top of the hour. It's going to take months or years to make significant headway in this mess; to weed out problem officers and improve policing, and to rebuild public confidence.

In the meantime crime will get worse: it always does when policing is dysfunctional.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:20 pm UTC

Coyne wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:IIRC, Anthony Batts was brought on to reduce police abuses.


So a lot of people will figure that, *snap* just like that everything should be solved. If it isn't Anthony Batts should be fired, for being an "incompetent clown."

But Baltimore is not a TV show, with all the years spent obliterating community-police relations, by way of abuse and arrogance, all resolved neatly by some "hero" just before the top of the hour. It's going to take months or years to make significant headway in this mess; to weed out problem officers and improve policing, and to rebuild public confidence.

In the meantime crime will get worse: it always does when policing is dysfunctional.


This wasn't a few months into Anthony Batt's tenure. Take a look at what he's done for the past few years.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryla ... story.html
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryla ... tml#page=1

He opened up the Baltimore Police to Justice Department probes and investigations. He increased the size of internal affairs to provide more transparency (and workers) to investigations of Police Abuses. He was at least openly critical of the Baltimore Police review board (although he held no legal authority to override it)... and was pretty open that he wanted the authority to suspend / fire cops without convicting them of a felony first.

He pushed the City Counsel to purchase Body Cams for BPD.

The city's report says Batts wants to develop an "early-warning system" for brutal cops, to overhaul training in the use of force, and get better recording equipment for officers who investigate wrongdoing within the agency.

Other plans call for increasing transparency by looking "for ways to publish more information" on use-of-force incidents and holding nine town hall forums beginning in 2015.


Look, these are the things that this very topic have been talking about. Anthony Batts has been BPD Police Commissioner since 2012. He's already had years to see if his strategy was going to work out.

Now I'm not necessarily saying that Anthony Batt's reforms are a bad thing. I'm just noting that as it currently stands... the political system has more or less scapegoatted the current problems onto him. That makes it unlikely for the next BPD Commissioner to continue Batt's police reform.

Ultimately, if police reforms cause an uptick in crime (even temporarily), it will be very hard to actually implement said reforms. Yeah, police brutality sucks... but you know what sucks more? A multiple new murder cases every day for four months in a row with only a 35% cloture rate. The evaluation of Police Reforms can't happen in isolation. The effect on crime (as well as indirect effects on crime: such as Officer Efficacy) needs to also be taken into account. Any Police Reform that seems like it caused an uptick in crime will be dismantled by the Political System before it takes effect.

That's what the Anthony Batts firing has taught me anyway.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:44 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Maybe those officers deserved to be made an example of. At best they showed a callous disregard for the man in their custody. At worst it was murder. All we can do is let the process work. It's unreasonable to think that the consequences aren't going to be complex. This situation took a long time brewing and it will take a long time to correct itself.


They needed to be indicted, sure. That isn't the problem, really. The problem is that it was only making an example of them. That's very different from fixing the underlying problem. Making a public example of the guys who got caught, and then just carrying on with business as usual is kind of terrible.

Batts was also, sort of, made an example of. A scapegoat was needed, that's all that was, and he was handy. Which of course makes the position rather unattractive to someone likely to want to make actual reforms, since willingness to do this does not appear to be present.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:03 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Look, these are the things that this very topic have been talking about. Anthony Batts has been BPD Police Commissioner since 2012. He's already had years to see if his strategy was going to work out.

Now I'm not necessarily saying that Anthony Batt's reforms are a bad thing. I'm just noting that as it currently stands... the political system has more or less scapegoatted the current problems onto him. That makes it unlikely for the next BPD Commissioner to continue Batt's police reform.

Ultimately, if police reforms cause an uptick in crime (even temporarily), it will be very hard to actually implement said reforms. Yeah, police brutality sucks... but you know what sucks more? A multiple new murder cases every day for four months in a row with only a 35% cloture rate. The evaluation of Police Reforms can't happen in isolation. The effect on crime (as well as indirect effects on crime: such as Officer Efficacy) needs to also be taken into account. Any Police Reform that seems like it caused an uptick in crime will be dismantled by the Political System before it takes effect.

That's what the Anthony Batts firing has taught me anyway.


Yeah, it's like they brought in a coach for the "Cleveland Indians" and gave him two years...well, actually 33 months. Then when a miracle failed to appear, they hung him in effigy, tarred and feathered him, and ran him out of town on a rail.

Take the body cameras: the city finally gave in and agreed to buy them...in November. 2014. Batts was in office for 25 months before that happened. And then, of course, there's the two-year body camera roll-out: which means cameras may be universally adopted by November 2016, assuming the police don't con the city into killing the program in the meantime.

The voluntary Justice Department review of BPD started in October 2014. Increase in internal affairs, October 2014. (He did install a new head of internal affairs, May 2013.) Action plan for reduction of brutality and misconduct, October 2014.

So either Batts was a member of the good old boy crowd, and basically did nothing for 24 months, or it took 25 months for something bad enough to happen to club the city and the police into submission.

And then they sacked him...for what? Rocking the boat? Not rocking the boat fast enough? They said it was the latter, but I'll bet it was more about the former.

The bottom line: You say that they brought him in for reforms...but no really significant reform happened as far as I can see, until a few reforms were started just 8 months ago. It shouldn't be surprising there's still a crime wave.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:29 pm UTC

Its not "there's still a crime wave".

The worst murder wave since 1970 is currently occuring. And Anthony Batts has only managed a 35% clearance rate during this timeframe. Homicides weren't happening 8 months ago at this level. And the homicides that were happening were actually getting resolved at 45% or higher.

The question is what is causing the spike in violence.

The first job of the Police Commissioner is to... police. You know, keep murder, homicides and traffic in check.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:32 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:The question is what is causing the spike in violence.

The first job of the Police Commissioner is to... police. You know, keep murder, homicides and traffic in check.


Nobody respects the police. That's it. There is no more.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:51 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:The question is what is causing the spike in violence.

The first job of the Police Commissioner is to... police. You know, keep murder, homicides and traffic in check.


Nobody respects the police. That's it. There is no more.


And part of the reason for that is because the police have become Judge Dredd. Another part is all the stupid laws such as marijuana criminalization, which by breaking teaches people that it's ok the break some laws, therefore they might try to break other laws.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby wumpus » Sun Aug 09, 2015 3:11 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
DSenette wrote:edit: It does seem by the precedent in that case, police officers WOULD be able to shoot fleeing drunk drivers. I'm not sure how I feel about that. On one hand it seems to make sense in keeping the public protected. On the other death is far harsher than any legal penalty we have for drunk driving. Hell even drunk driving causing death doesn't lead to the death penalty (or anything even close). I guess ideally you'd want to be able to setup some sort of roadblock up ahead and ensure there weren't any other people on the road. Depending on the area that may or may not be feasible I guess.


There is already plenty of precedent to shoot fleeing drunk drivers.
Plumhoff v. Rickard: SCOTUS declares shooting into a fleeing drunk driver and killing driver and passenger legal. No civil responsibilities for either.
Scott v. Harris: SCOTUS declares that using a PIT (ramming a car to crash it) maneuver in a high speed chase (original crime appears to be speeding) is legal and the cop has immunity in this case. Court agrees that the PIT maneuver is deadly force and is justified in its use (8-1 decision).

The thing about video evidence is that it can make it clear that the car moved due the corpse no longer keeping a foot on the brake instead of an attempt at escape.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:02 pm UTC

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/11/us/ph ... olent.html

Image

In general, the difference between the peaceful protests during the day and the violent lootings at night cannot be more stark. The two front-pages that the St. Louis Post Dispatch put out says it all.

I understand that the two groups of "protesters" are different. The "day protesters" were described as

On Sunday afternoon, it looked as if the anniversary of the death of Michael Brown, an unarmed black teenager shot to death by a police officer in Ferguson, Mo., was going to be remembered for forceful but peaceful protests.

By the light of day, the protests, at times, took on an almost parade-like atmosphere. A man cradled a child as he marched.


But the "night protesters" had a different idea of how to take things. Gunfire, Looting, Property Damage... heck... one of the reporters got mugged.

A colleague said that Paul Hampel, a reporter for The St. Louis Post-Dispatch, was assaulted and robbed after documenting looting attempts by the crowd.


I really don't know what to do or think about the situation. The "night protesters" are taking advantage of the daytime protester's organization. They simply disappear into the crowds after they've stolen enough money to satisfy their urges. Surely, the "day protesters" can't be held responsible for the actions of the few... but how do you prevent the crimes associated with these kinds of protests?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Aug 10, 2015 4:59 pm UTC

Yes, it's clearly different crowds of people (nice of police and media to admit that finally), but I'm still not willing to take police entirely at their own word when they say others started shooting first.

Meanwhile, Andre Green marks the fourth teenager killed by police in the past week, and at 15 is the youngest victim since Tamir Rice (12). Shaun King reports that police admitted they hadn't seen the gun they claimed to have seen in initial news reports.

(Yes, it's a tweet, but no, that doesn't automatically make it unreliable. Shaun King isn't just some random dude and over the past year has consistently provided more reliable news than most major media outlets.)
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:59 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Yes, it's clearly different crowds of people (nice of police and media to admit that finally), but I'm still not willing to take police entirely at their own word when they say others started shooting first.


While I recognize the stupidity of sending plainsclothes officers to patrol Ferguson without bodycams... the fact of the matter is shooting at a Police Vehicle with a stolen gun is not the best of ideas either.

Image

Fact: Mr. Harris was shooting at Police Officers with an illegal gun. The bullet holes are proof of that.

The fact that Mr. Harris's father is invoking the name of Michael Brown doesn't help either. It sullies the name of Michael Brown to connect him with this incident as well.

---------------

Besides, that wasn't the only shooting involved on that night.

St Louis PD also confirmed another shooting taking place at 2:15am. Two male victims, aged 17 and 19, told police they were walking along the memorial for Mr Brown when an unidentified black male in a red sweatshirt began shooting at them from inside his vehicle.


There's has to be some sort of gang crap going on that no one is reporting on. Rival Groups shooting each other during this protest? Anyone got the scoop? Why would people be shooting each other at this time?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Aug 11, 2015 12:40 am UTC

It took me a bit to understand what was going on. It appears that the "CPOA" is the local police union (or something like it). The Columbia Police Department denounced the post.

I dunno, I think it is fully within my expectation that one of the thousands of police unions in this country would make a pro-police message and then go too far with it. The thread is already full of foot-in-mouth situations where police union spokesmen are then denounced by city leaders (including the Sheriff or Commissioner).

Indeed, the whole point of the Police Unions are to provide a voice that loudly cries out in favor of individual officer's actions, no matter what the evidence is. And often times, they butt heads against the official elected leaders and politicians.

In other news, Catholic Priests are still against Abortion and Pro-Women groups are pro-choice.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:17 am UTC

Ferguson cops showed up in riot gear again this evening, apparently eager for a repeat of last August.

(They'd been arresting people earlier for the terrible crime of being well-known protestors and recording the police.)

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Aug 11, 2015 2:46 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Ferguson cops showed up in riot gear again this evening, apparently eager for a repeat of last August.


Police weren't in Riot Gear until this crap was going on and you know it.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Aug 11, 2015 2:50 pm UTC

Shots or no, they're pulling the same chemical warfare bullshit they were doing last year. (Telling people to disperse and then firing teargas into the streets down which they were dispersing.)
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Tue Aug 11, 2015 2:56 pm UTC

What would your solution to mass lawlessness be?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby bentheimmigrant » Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:00 pm UTC

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:03 pm UTC

There is no "mass lawlessness", except in the sense that standing in the street might be civil disobedience.

There was no riot gear during the day yesterday, when they were just arresting peaceful protesters and not teargassing them.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:05 pm UTC

The St. Louis Police have been placed in a "State of Emergency", and tensions are up. Rocks and Bottles have begun to be thrown at Police, so of course they need riot gear to protect their faces / bodies.

Gun shots from "the crowds" change everything. Yeah, I understand that the gunshots aren't coming from protesters. That doesn't change the fact that the criminals are taking advantage of their position inside the crowds. Even if those gunshots are aimed between different violent groups (and not at the Police): Police are required to do something about it.

There was no riot gear during the day yesterday, when they were just arresting peaceful protesters and not teargassing them.


There wasn't a declaration of "State of Emergency" either.

In any case, rocks and bottles have been thrown at Police by the protesters. They need the riot gear to protect their heads / faces.
Last edited by KnightExemplar on Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:08 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:06 pm UTC

Coming "from the crowds (plural)" according to whom? The same police who are teargassing dispersing protesters and arresting people for filming them?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:10 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Coming "from the crowds (plural)" according to whom? The same police who are teargassing dispersing protesters and arresting people for filming them?


http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crim ... 7e77a.html

Post-Dispatch reporter Paul Hampel was beaten, bloodied and robbed by a group of attackers as he covered the Ferguson protests Sunday night.


Dude, you can pretend this shit isn't happening, or maybe you can just acknowledge it a little bit. All this crap going down during the protests (including looting / breaking / etc. etc.) doesn't bode well. My info is from reporters who are getting beaten and mugged just covering the protests.

Besides, its basic criminal tactics to use crowds as cover for this sort of stuff. If criminals have half a brain, they're using the protesters as cover.

leady wrote:What would your solution to mass lawlessness be?


Its not "mass lawlessness" however. Its simply a criminal group who has figured out that following the crowds and doing looting / muggings while the Police are busy is a good idea. If all the Police in the area is down a few blocks away doing crowd control, then no Police are available to respond to robbery / looting calls.

My source: Occam's razor. A small group of criminals is more likely than mass lawlessness. And the current situation can be explained by maybe... 5 to 15 jackasses taking advantage of this situation. For all we know, the gunshots fired situation on Sunday is related. Maybe those jackasses tried to mug the wrong people (ie: people who were willing to defend themselves with gunfire).
Last edited by KnightExemplar on Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:25 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:24 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:Ferguson cops showed up in riot gear again this evening, apparently eager for a repeat of last August.


Police weren't in Riot Gear until this crap was going on and you know it.


Riot gear has a place. I'm less worried about the equipment(though sometimes, it's an interesting insight into expectations, etc), than I am about actions taken. I'm not overly fussed about some gearing up in the wake of being shot at. That's fair. Tear gassing random folks that are *not* the shooters really isn't. I'm fine with reactions to those specific people when violence happens, but reacting to the crowd as if the entire mass bears the responsibility for the actions of some other dude really isn't okay.

If someone throws a brick, arrest that guy. Job done. Sure, they use crowds as cover. So? They use buildings as cover too, but that doesn't mean we need to bulldoze the city.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:26 pm UTC

I think that's a fair assessment Tyndmyr.

IMO, it was a mistake to declare a "State of Emergency". I think that declaration has put the police forces too much on edge, and their change of tactics is directly related to the declaration.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:54 pm UTC

What does that quote about a person being beaten and robbed have to do with my question about gunshots from the crowds?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:30 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:What does that quote about a person being beaten and robbed have to do with my question about gunshots from the crowds?
Emergency Declared in Ferguson After Shooting

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:09 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:What does that quote about a person being beaten and robbed have to do with my question about gunshots from the crowds?


I think I see the beef you've got now. "From" isn't quite the correct word for me to use.

Gun shots amongst the crowds? Gunshots in the crowds? Whatever was going on here. I've got a brainfart right now, I can't seem to think of the right preposition to use to describe the situation.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:22 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:What does that quote about a person being beaten and robbed have to do with my question about gunshots from the crowds?
Emergency Declared in Ferguson After Shooting
Yes, I am well aware of the official police version of what's been happening. I'm not sure which of my questions you think is answered by an article that mostly just regurgitates their words.

I know the police said the kid they shot had fired at them first, but I know police everywhere have said similar things to justify dozens of other homicides, so I'm unwilling to take their word for anything at this point.
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