Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boycott

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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby Vaniver » Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:58 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:If that was her objection, than she should worry about homosexual girls, not trans girls.
Do you think she isn't also worried about homosexual girls?

Diadem wrote:That they might enjoy the camp a little bit more with some extracurricular activities? The sheer horror!
This does, in fact, horrify many people.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby Elvish Pillager » Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:59 pm UTC

Dauric: Well, that argument only makes sense if you think that male and female are polar opposites. :|
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:59 pm UTC

And if you're speaking Latin.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby buddy431 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:00 pm UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:
Роберт wrote:
mike-l wrote:Actually, isn't not identifying as a gender considered to be transgendered?

I'm pretty sure agender is separate from trans and androgynous, although trans is often used (incorrectly) to mean "not cis". That's my understanding.

Depends how you think about it. If "trans" means "Your identification set is different than the one you were assigned" then agendered people are trans, because we're typically assigned either (male only) or (female only) and we don't identify as that. But if "trans" means "You identify as something that you weren't assigned", then we're not trans.

Do we need to introduce some E-Z nomenclature to remove ambiguity? bad joke
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:03 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:
Роберт wrote:If that was her objection, than she should worry about homosexual girls, not trans girls.
Do you think she isn't also worried about homosexual girls?

That's not the direction of Роберт's complaint.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby Роберт » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:03 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:
Роберт wrote:If that was her objection, than she should worry about homosexual girls, not trans girls.
Do you think she isn't also worried about homosexual girls?
Well whoever titled this thread called her a homophobe... I think that assumption may well be correct. There's still no real explanation about why trans girls aren't safe, and again, I assume she would be uncomfortable with a trans boy in her troup, so I really don't know what she wants. It's not clear.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:07 pm UTC

It's more "keep the unholy abomination from pullting the minds good christian girls with things like acceptance!" than "this person has proven to be a risk".

Irrationality works like that.

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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby masher » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:57 pm UTC

TIL girls aren't allowed in the Boy Scouts in America.

Australian Scouts accept both (all?) genders.

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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby buddy431 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:02 pm UTC

masher wrote:TIL girls aren't allowed in the Boy Scouts in America.

Australian Scouts accept both (all?) genders.

Scouts Australia is co-ed, but Girl Guides Australia only accepts girls.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby Malice » Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:18 pm UTC

I was not actually expecting to rage at people being stupid and mean (shouldn't I be used to it by now?) but the notion of somebody trying to stop a young transgendered girl from having the experience of Girl Scouts had me seething for a minute. I think the concept is so alien to the wholesomeness that is Girl Scouts that it just seems ludicrously awful.

I did Boy Scouts for a while, but come to think of it it would have been cool to have cis girls or trans guys involved in the events. It's not like reciting pledges, playing Monopoly, building birdhouses, or tying knots are or need be the province of manly men.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby Jave D » Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:48 pm UTC

I think this goes beyond homophobia. When homophobes routinely refer to things like a "radical homosexual agenda," it strikes me as a relatively new phrase brought into the mainstream by the likes of Glenn Beck and the Take Back America conference. A political paradigm based completely on paranoia, delusion, and yes, homophobia and other forms of bigotry. It's gotten to the point where it's not even remarkable anymore, we in the group of normal and sane persons just don't bat an eye when yet another lunatic screams about the evil gay muslim communist conspiracy to pollute our precious bodily fluids, we get caught up in our own little arguments about other nuances and pretend that this whole thing is about something other than a ripe bigoted turd in the punch bowl of America. The real problem is widespread and alarmingly mainstream (coughFoxcough) right-wing conspiracy theorists espousing an ideology of bigotry and paranoid persecution. And I can't even point out the obvious similarity between this phenomenon and how prewar Germany portrayed Jews because modern right-wingers have usurped that analogy themselves in the effort to portray certain prominent American Jews (like George Soros) as part of the evil atheist-Muslim-gay-liberal conspiracy to destroy America, one girl scout cookie at a time!

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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby Vaniver » Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:45 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:That's not the direction of Роберт's complaint.
It looked like a consistency complaint; even if it were a "lesbians are the bigger threat because there are more of them" that wouldn't be an argument for accepting either.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:03 am UTC

Oy. I can sort of understand why somebody might disagree with this decision on the grounds that girl scouts shouldn't deal with controversial gender politics. I'd disagree with that viewpoint, but I understand it. What I don't get is the desire to punish the girl scouts via a boycott because they made that decision. That sort of "my viewpoint on gender politics is objectively and morally correct and everybody should be forced to abide by it" shit is almost always just bigotry.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby Diadem » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:04 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:
Diadem wrote:That they might enjoy the camp a little bit more with some extracurricular activities? The sheer horror!
This does, in fact, horrify many people.

Well, yes. So? I see no need to cater to bigots.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:07 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:That's not the direction of Роберт's complaint.
It looked like a consistency complaint; even if it were a "lesbians are the bigger threat because there are more of them" that wouldn't be an argument for accepting either.

It's not a consistency complaint. It's a non sequitur complaint: if you're concerned about kids having sex on camping trips, that might give you reason to be concerned about sending lesbian girls on camping trips, but it doesn't give you reason to be concerned about sending trans girls on camping trips ("trans" is not a sexual orientation, and straight girls are generally not attracted to trans girls).

Роберт wrote:If that was her objection, than she should worry about homosexual girls, not trans girls.

The conclusion is to "worry about homosexual girls, not trans girls." "Worrying" about homosexual girls while still worrying about trans girls — a "consistent" solution — does not satisfy this. So, it's not a consistency complaint. Hence what I said about direction: I suspect Роберт was less saying that Taylor should worry about lesbians, and more saying that she should not worry about trans girls if her underlying concern is what she says it is.

sourmìlk, for GSUSA to take the opposite stance would be no less an engagement with controversial gender politics.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:13 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:sourmìlk, for GSUSA to take the opposite stance would be no less an engagement with controversial gender politics.

One of the reason's I'd disagree with that viewpoint. My point is basically just that this transphobe's viewpoint is far beyond what's conceivably reasonable or rational.

Diadem wrote:Well, yes. So? I see no need to cater to bigots.

I don't think he was suggesting that you do, just that your ridiculing sadly applies to some people.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby Vaniver » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:37 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Oy. I can sort of understand why somebody might disagree with this decision on the grounds that girl scouts shouldn't deal with controversial gender politics. I'd disagree with that viewpoint, but I understand it. What I don't get is the desire to punish the girl scouts via a boycott because they made that decision. That sort of "my viewpoint on gender politics is objectively and morally correct and everybody should be forced to abide by it" shit is almost always just bigotry.
I'll just leave this here.

Diadem wrote:Well, yes. So? I see no need to cater to bigots.
...why is it bigotry to think teenagers shouldn't be having sex?

That is, I approve the GSA's stance on allowing anyone who presents as female to join. (But, since I believe in freedom of association, I don't think my approval should count for much.) I think that labeling any opponents of that stance as bigots is unhelpful and probably incorrect.

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:It's not a consistency complaint. It's a non sequitur complaint: if you're concerned about kids having sex on camping trips, that might give you reason to be concerned about sending lesbian girls on camping trips, but it doesn't give you reason to be concerned about sending trans girls on camping trips ("trans" is not a sexual orientation, and straight girls are generally not attracted to trans girls).
I think "trans girls" is too broad a set for me to be comfortable with the claim that no one should be concerned, though I agree the degree of concern should be lower than for lesbians.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:39 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Oy. I can sort of understand why somebody might disagree with this decision on the grounds that girl scouts shouldn't deal with controversial gender politics. I'd disagree with that viewpoint, but I understand it. What I don't get is the desire to punish the girl scouts via a boycott because they made that decision. That sort of "my viewpoint on gender politics is objectively and morally correct and everybody should be forced to abide by it" shit is almost always just bigotry.
I'll just leave this here.

I'm pretty sure what I said there is consistent with what I said here. At least, I don't see a contradiction.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:09 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:It's not a consistency complaint. It's a non sequitur complaint: if you're concerned about kids having sex on camping trips, that might give you reason to be concerned about sending lesbian girls on camping trips, but it doesn't give you reason to be concerned about sending trans girls on camping trips ("trans" is not a sexual orientation, and straight girls are generally not attracted to trans girls).
I think "trans girls" is too broad a set for me to be comfortable with the claim that no one should be concerned, though I agree the degree of concern should be lower than for lesbians.

What if you take out the phrase "worry about" and replace it with "boycott over"?
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby Elvish Pillager » Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:16 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:It's not a consistency complaint. It's a non sequitur complaint: if you're concerned about kids having sex on camping trips, that might give you reason to be concerned about sending lesbian girls on camping trips, but it doesn't give you reason to be concerned about sending trans girls on camping trips ("trans" is not a sexual orientation, and straight girls are generally not attracted to trans girls).
I think "trans girls" is too broad a set for me to be comfortable with the claim that no one should be concerned, though I agree the degree of concern should be lower than for lesbians.

Unless you think that trans girls are significantly more likely than other girls to have sex on all-girl camping trips, it's still a non-sequitur. You could equally well be worried about bringing brown-eyed girls on camping trips, because, holy shit, brown-eyed girls sometimes have sex! (And as for being a "broad set", "brown-eyed girls" is way more of a broad category than "trans girls", too.) The point is that "trans" is a qualifier that doesn't really have anything to do with the 'risk' of girl sex.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby buddy431 » Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:45 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
Vaniver wrote:
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:It's not a consistency complaint. It's a non sequitur complaint: if you're concerned about kids having sex on camping trips, that might give you reason to be concerned about sending lesbian girls on camping trips, but it doesn't give you reason to be concerned about sending trans girls on camping trips ("trans" is not a sexual orientation, and straight girls are generally not attracted to trans girls).
I think "trans girls" is too broad a set for me to be comfortable with the claim that no one should be concerned, though I agree the degree of concern should be lower than for lesbians.

What if you take out the phrase "worry about" and replace it with "boycott over"?

A boycott is a right of any person to show displeasure with an organization. I'm not going to criticize someone for using that right, even if I disagree with the premise.

That brings up the larger view here. It's a private organization that made the decision to let a certain person join, and it's a private citizen who's objecting. The private citizen is using two means of action that I wholeheartedly approve of - speaking and threatening to withhold business. The private citizen is also a member of this organization, and they have the right to try to change their policies directly, or to withdraw their membership. Nobody is asking for the government to get involved, and, from that respect, it's really not my business. I'll continue to buy girl scout cookies because I like them. If I have a daughter, I won't object to her joining girl scouts because I don't strongly object to their policies, in this respect or any other.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:54 am UTC

buddy431 wrote:A boycott is a right of any person to show displeasure with an organization. I'm not going to criticize someone for using that right, even if I disagree with the premise.

Does this apply to all rights and all boycotts? For example, if a person chose to boycott your company, would you criticize that? If he chose to use his right to free speech to say that black people are sub-human, would you criticize that?

Nobody is saying that some entity is acting outside its rights, just that a particular person is acting idiotically and with bigotry.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:15 am UTC

Ja. If I thought that "It's their right" were sufficient grounds for "I'm not going to criticize them for it," I would have to think that everything I criticize should be illegal.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:23 am UTC

You are private citizens complaining about the actions of other private citizens.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby omgryebread » Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:49 am UTC

The Boy Scouts of America and Girls Scouts of the USA are not related. The BSA is affiliated with the American Heritage Girls, who are a conservative spinoff from the GSUSA. AHG is far more religious and tends to promote homemaking a lot more than GSUSA. There were a lot of Girl Scouts at my cousin's middle school, and some were trying to get others to switch and there was drama. Then my cousin got kicked out of the Girl Scouts and I don't know what's going on and I have to hunt down thin mints.

To tell the story without me complaining about thin mints, Girl Scouts are awesome and progressive, there's a whole organization formed in response to that, which the Boy Scouts support because they are non-awesome and non-progressive.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby buddy431 » Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:50 am UTC

The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:You are private citizens complaining about the actions of other private citizens.

You're absolutely right of course. I'm not condemning you for condemning someone who's condemning someone for not condemning someone.

I guess that someone voicing an opinion on Youtube (or anywhere on the internet) just isn't something I get very worked up about. Especially when that opinion isn't advocating something that I feel is going to infringe upon my rights.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby omgryebread » Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:52 am UTC

buddy431 wrote:
The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:You are private citizens complaining about the actions of other private citizens.

You're absolutely right of course. I'm not condemning you for condemning someone who's condemning someone for not condemning someone.

I guess that someone voicing an opinion on Youtube (or anywhere on the internet) just isn't something I get very worked up about. Especially when that opinion isn't advocating something that I feel is going to infringe upon my rights.
When people are basically saying we should boycott girls playing with other girls because those girls aren't "girl enough", I'm going to speak out against it, so hopefully people don't do that anymore.

I could sit around and only complain about things that affect ME PERSONALLY but that's awfully self-centered and awfully boring.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:07 am UTC

omgryebread wrote:I could sit around and only complain about things that affect ME PERSONALLY but that's awfully self-centered and awfully boring.

*cough*thin mints*cough*

Seriously, do-si-dos > all.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:24 am UTC

I like those shortbread cookies with the girl-scouts logo imprinted in them best.

I suggest a cookie that started off as a shortbread, but was really a thin mint. A trans mint?

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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:28 am UTC

Mint ruins cookies. Thin mints are by far the worst girl scout cookies
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby Darryl » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:35 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
omgryebread wrote:I could sit around and only complain about things that affect ME PERSONALLY but that's awfully self-centered and awfully boring.

*cough*thin mints*cough*

Seriously, do-si-dos > all.

To continue the off-topic rant: Samoas. That is all.

Back on the topic, there is still a good reason for the GSUSA to be girls-only. To expose girls to the joy and fun of camping and other "tomboyish" activities without "helpful" boys doing everything for them. Sometimes it's useful for a less-privileged group (in this case, females) to have a space away from the privileged group (males). And trans girls are girls just as much as cis girls are.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:46 am UTC

Darryl wrote:To continue the off-topic rant: Samoas. That is all.

Coconut is disgusting, no.

And trans girls are girls just as much as cis girls are.

Well, biologically and genetically not exactly. But as far as interpersonal interactions go, yes.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby Diadem » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:53 am UTC

We don't have girl scout cookies here in NL. Are thin mints like after eights? Because those are awesome.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby Darryl » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:57 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
Darryl wrote:To continue the off-topic rant: Samoas. That is all.

Coconut is disgusting, no.
Coconut is the greatest thing ever.

And trans girls are girls just as much as cis girls are.

Well, biologically and genetically not exactly. But as far as interpersonal interactions go, yes.

And in this case, the interpersonal interaction bit is the important part. There are times when biological gender is important (medical reasons, mainly), but usually the primary importance is the interpersonal interactions.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby mike-l » Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:03 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Mint ruins cookies. Thin mints are by far the worst girl scout cookies


sourmìlk wrote:Coconut is disgusting, no.


As usual, sourmilk is completely wrong. Excuse me while I go eat an after 8 :)
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby Vaniver » Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:03 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:What if you take out the phrase "worry about" and replace it with "boycott over"?
So, I can't empathize with boycotting the cookies, but my current signature may explain why. I think choosing to stay in or leave a troop can depend on any of the characteristics of the other members of the troop, but I wouldn't call quitting an organization boycotting. (I also find it hard to empathize with leaving your local troop because another troop contains someone you dislike.)

ElvishPillager wrote:Unless you think that trans girls are significantly more likely than other girls to have sex on all-girl camping trips, it's still a non-sequitur.
Suppose the concern weren't sex, but impregnation. Would it be reasonable to think a trans girl on the trip makes the chance of impregnation higher than it would be without her?
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:04 am UTC

Darryl wrote:Coconut is the greatest thing ever.

They're not even the best fruit ever. Seriously, give me another fruit that kills more people than sharks.

And in this case, the interpersonal interaction bit is the important part. There are times when biological gender is important (medical reasons, mainly), but usually the primary importance is the interpersonal interactions.

I recognize this, which is why I support the Girl Scouts' choice.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:13 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:They're not even the best fruit ever. Seriously, give me another fruit that kills more people than sharks.


Large piles of oranges, according to action movies.

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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby Whimsical Eloquence » Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:47 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:
Diadem wrote:I really see no reason for these organizations to be separate, except bigotry.

And I don't think they are in other countries, are they?

It's just so 19th century, separating boys and girls.
This makes sense before puberty, but there is a strong practical concern with taking male and female teenagers out into the woods together, which appears to be Taylor's actual objection.


If you're really that paranoid about kids sleeping together, separate sleeping arrangements has generally been the common practice worldwide where mixed national organisations are the norm. Indeed, I'm rather opposed to single-sex groups for the sort of essentialist and gender tosh they propagate in defence of that, if you watch the video part of it is her quoting the research institute GSUSA set up with the explicit intention of defending its position. You get lines about how girls are inherently able to relate better to other girls, which is problematic as something to promote.


But yeah, the girl's video and accompanying vitriol from conservative organisations is really rather vile. One would have hoped that in addition to learning to express your views, her Girl Scout experience would have taught her basic decency to others.

I would object to the second criterion of "presenting" as a girl, in that sort of language seems to something of a reinforcement of gender coding. The logic of, "Oh so you identify as a girl, but do you dress as one?" leads to the notion that there is some way for girls to dress and pressures the individual involved to conform to that idea in transitioning.
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Re: Girl Scouts Admit Trans Girls--Homophobe calls for Boyco

Postby buddy431 » Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:23 am UTC

Whimsical Eloquence wrote:If you're really that paranoid about kids sleeping together, separate sleeping arrangements has generally been the common practice worldwide where mixed national organisations are the norm. Indeed, I'm rather opposed to single-sex groups for the sort of essentialist and gender tosh they propagate in defence of that, if you watch the video part of it is her quoting the research institute GSUSA set up with the explicit intention of defending its position. You get lines about how girls are inherently able to relate better to other girls, which is problematic as something to promote.


I think it's silly to say that there shouldn't be any all-girls or all-guys youth organizations. You indicate that you're from Ireland, which has both a (co-ed) scouting organization and a (girls-only) guiding organization. In the U.S., we have the (guys-only) Boy Scouts and (girls only) Girl Scouts, but also co-ed Venturing and Exploring. Outside of scouting and guiding organizations, there is also (co-ed) 4-H (which is government administered), (co-ed) Key Club, (boy-only) DeMolay, (girls-only) Rainbow Girls, etc. etc. as some of the major youth organizations in the U.S. While a boys-only or girls-only organization might not be best for everyone, it's not like there aren't other options to choose from if that's not your thing.
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