Qantas grounds all planes

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masher
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Qantas grounds all planes

Postby masher » Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:28 pm UTC

Fuckwad CEO Alan Joyce has grounded the entire Qantas fleet.

No notice was given to the public before the announcement, and it took took place the day after the AGM, during which he got a $5m payrise.

It's supposed to be in response to unreasonable demands from the Transport Workers Union, Aircraft Engineers Association and Pilots Association.

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Re: Qantas grounds all planes

Postby Princess Marzipan » Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:29 pm UTC

Link? Information? Details?
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Re: Qantas grounds all planes

Postby masher » Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:31 pm UTC

Sorry, pressed the wrong button.

Qantas media release
Qantas website announcement
Rolling news coverage
Infor on FWA actions

A statement by the Pilots Association said that they had information that Qantas was booking hotels and talking to other airline before the AGM, showing that this was premeditated.


.

I've got flights booked to go to Perth on Friday. Best of all, they where frequent flyer points, so I can't even get a refund and book with someone else. If this doesn't get resolved now, I'm not going anywhere.
Last edited by masher on Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:12 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Qantas grounds all planes

Postby yurell » Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:44 pm UTC

Well, I hope this makes everyone not involved in industrial action go on strike in solidarity.

Edit: Wow, not only did Qantas get first page, but it got first article on Al Jazeera, and the second article on the front page of BBC world news
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Re: Qantas grounds all planes

Postby johnny_7713 » Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:24 am UTC

This blog has context, it has an anti-Joyce slant / bias, though this stunt makes me feel that's just honost reporting. This grounding is apparently good because now the passengers have 'certainty' and anyway it's all the unions' fault [since they were refusing to work overtime :roll: ] (dixit Joyce) :roll: .

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Re: Qantas grounds all planes

Postby buddy431 » Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:14 pm UTC

Qantas ordered to resume flights

The unions are ordered to end their industrial action, and negotiate an agreement within 21 days or face binding arbitration. The ruling is seen, most importantly, as a win for the public and the government, but also for the airline.
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Re: Qantas grounds all planes

Postby Arancaytar » Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:41 pm UTC

Yeah, actually I'd rather stay grounded than fly with an overworked, exhausted pilot...
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Re: Qantas grounds all planes

Postby buddy431 » Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:13 pm UTC

Arancaytar wrote:Yeah, actually I'd rather stay grounded than fly with an overworked, exhausted pilot...


I though the pilots weren't striking? It was the baggage handlers and stuff, wasn't it?

Edit: On reading further, I'm even more confused what was happening. Three unions (for pilots, engineers, and baggage handlers) were trying to negotiate for - what? Higher wages? Better benefits? It's not really clear. Anyway, it appears that workers have held rolling work stoppages and refused overtime for weeks. Which Unions were doing this (rolling work stoppages and refusing overtime), when, and how often? Qantas thinks the work stoppages are too expensive for the company, so locks everybody out and grounds the planes. The Australian Government isn't happy, sends the Unions and Qantas to Fair Work Australia (industrial regulators), who order Unions back to work and for Qantas to get planes going again. The Unions have 21 days to negotiate something, or else face binding arbitration. Are the union members still allowed to refuse overtime? Are the unions still telling their members to refuse overtime?
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Re: Qantas grounds all planes

Postby Kulantan » Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:35 pm UTC

Qantas wants to move jobs offshore (or to lower paid "contractors" in the case of the baggage handlers). The unions understandably don't want this, hence industrial action.
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Re: Qantas grounds all planes

Postby masher » Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:04 am UTC

buddy431 wrote:
Arancaytar wrote:Yeah, actually I'd rather stay grounded than fly with an overworked, exhausted pilot...


I though the pilots weren't striking? It was the baggage handlers and stuff, wasn't it?


The pilots weren't striking. The extent of their industrial action was to wear a red tie and make unauthorised announcements about wanting Qantas pilots to fly Qantas aircraft.

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Re: Qantas grounds all planes

Postby Hawknc » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:15 am UTC

buddy431 wrote:The Australian Government isn't happy, sends the Unions and Qantas to Fair Work Australia (industrial regulators), who order Unions back to work and for Qantas to get planes going again. The Unions have 21 days to negotiate something, or else face binding arbitration. Are the union members still allowed to refuse overtime? Are the unions still telling their members to refuse overtime?

It was less "ordering the unions back to work" so much as "ordering Qantas to let their workers in". The unions had, prior to the grounding, suspended all industrial action as an act of good faith in order to negotiate an outcome. Joyce's decision was unprecedented and unnecessary.

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Re: Qantas grounds all planes

Postby johnny_7713 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:08 pm UTC

To be more precise (in so far as I understand the situation), both Qantas and the unions have been ordered to immediately cease industrial action (i.e. lock-outs on the part of Qantas, strikes / work-to-rule on the part of the unions). There is now a 21 day negotiation period. If Qantas and the unions do not come to an agreement within that time Fair Work Australia can either extend the negotiation period, or pronounce a judgement that will be binding for the next three years.

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Re: Qantas grounds all planes

Postby Randomizer » Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:54 am UTC

So... they grounded the planes to force the government to intervene and stop the unions from striking, basically?

Well, in that case, the grounding thing sounds far less retarded. Evil, yes, retarded, no.

Although, I don't see how the government can tell anyone they *have* to work. Isn't that, like, forced labor? And what are they going to do about it if they don't work? Arrest people?
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Re: Qantas grounds all planes

Postby buddy431 » Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:04 am UTC

Randomizer wrote:So... they grounded the planes to force the government to intervene and stop the unions from striking, basically?

Well, in that case, the grounding thing sounds far less retarded. Evil, yes, retarded, no.

Although, I don't see how the government can tell anyone they *have* to work. Isn't that, like, forced labor? And what are they going to do about it if they don't work? Arrest people?

The airline could fire them.
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Re: Qantas grounds all planes

Postby yurell » Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:40 am UTC

Randomizer wrote:Although, I don't see how the government can tell anyone they *have* to work. Isn't that, like, forced labor? And what are they going to do about it if they don't work? Arrest people?


They don't, they end the strike. If they then refuse to go to work, it would be like you refusing to work — your employer can just fire you.
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Re: Qantas grounds all planes

Postby Gelsamel » Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:54 am UTC

A strike is just mass refusing to work which makes firing essentially a non-option because you'd have to fire everyone, and if you didn't fire everyone you'd still have no employees and a bunch of people refusing to work. Nothing can stop people banding together to make threats and demands.
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Re: Qantas grounds all planes

Postby BlackSails » Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:02 am UTC

Gelsamel wrote:A strike is just mass refusing to work which makes firing essentially a non-option because you'd have to fire everyone, and if you didn't fire everyone you'd still have no employees and a bunch of people refusing to work. Nothing can stop people banding together to make threats and demands.


Thats what the air traffic controllers though. Then Reagan fired them all.

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Re: Qantas grounds all planes

Postby jestingrabbit » Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:37 am UTC

Gelsamel wrote:A strike is just mass refusing to work which makes firing essentially a non-option because you'd have to fire everyone, and if you didn't fire everyone you'd still have no employees and a bunch of people refusing to work. Nothing can stop people banding together to make threats and demands.


No. In Australia, and the rest of the civilised world, a strike is a legally protected industrial action.

Anyway, since no one else has mentioned this, this strike is more about the accounting manoeuvres that qantas has been doing wrt jetstar. Basically, if jetstar incurs a cost, qantas can finagle that cost onto the books of qantas. That way, qantas looks less profitable, jetstar looks more profitable, and they can argue for sacking qantas workers (with better-for-workers contracts) for jetstar workers (with worse-for-workers contracts). The unions think that this is what qantas is doing, and they want them to come clean and stop cost shifting.

Randomizer wrote:So... they grounded the planes to force the government to intervene and stop the unions from striking, basically?

Well, in that case, the grounding thing sounds far less retarded. Evil, yes, retarded, no.


They could have gone to the FWA and asked for the arangements they've now got. They didn't have to do it this way, they chose to be arseholes, damaging the qantas brand, shrinking it business, which is the big underlying goal here anyway.
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Re: Qantas grounds all planes

Postby Larry » Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:59 pm UTC

So it turns out I typed a massive post for this thread on Monday morning, but the internet monsters ate it. Oh well. I think most everything's been covered, except for the bit that scares me.

There was no accident to the timing of this little stunt. The Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting (CHOGM) had just finished in Perth and all the delegates were about to go home, when suddenly their flights were cancelled. Major embarrassment for the Aus government. The unions weren't planning any action anytime soon. AJ did this when he did in order to get the government to intervene, quickly, and get a "termination" of all industrial activity. Not a "suspension", a termination. That was in one of his quotes on the front cover of Monday's paper. It scares me that one person can get the government over a barrel like this, legally, then spend the next 2 days on every commercial news service saying 'This is the union's fault. This is the union's fault. This is the union's fault. This is the union's fault.'

That's the other thing that scares me; that the news media have been towing the line and reprinting Qantas' press releases as articles. Then making only a token effort to cross-reference Q's bullshit against the union's bullshit.

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Re: Qantas grounds all planes

Postby johnny_7713 » Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:07 pm UTC

Larry wrote:So it turns out I typed a massive post for this thread on Monday morning, but the internet monsters ate it. Oh well. I think most everything's been covered, except for the bit that scares me.

There was no accident to the timing of this little stunt. The Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting (CHOGM) had just finished in Perth and all the delegates were about to go home, when suddenly their flights were cancelled. Major embarrassment for the Aus government. The unions weren't planning any action anytime soon. AJ did this when he did in order to get the government to intervene, quickly, and get a "termination" of all industrial activity. Not a "suspension", a termination. That was in one of his quotes on the front cover of Monday's paper. It scares me that one person can get the government over a barrel like this, legally, then spend the next 2 days on every commercial news service saying 'This is the union's fault. This is the union's fault. This is the union's fault. This is the union's fault.'

That's the other thing that scares me; that the news media have been towing the line and reprinting Qantas' press releases as articles. Then making only a token effort to cross-reference Q's bullshit against the union's bullshit.


Also although there are indications that this was planned several weeks in advance (large scale hotel reservations for example), the Qantas board officially only decided to take this course of action on Saturday. Otherwise they would have to have informed the shareholders' meeting (one or two days before) about the action that they were going to take that would have a major impact on the companies earnings. The same meeting where the Qantas board got a substantial salary rise (for themselves) approved, despite the less than stellar performance of the airline.

Full disclosure: most of my knowledge of this comes from the blog I linked to above, which has a distinctly anti-Qantas-board slant.

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Re: Qantas grounds all planes

Postby Larry » Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:49 am UTC

johnny_7713 wrote:...the Qantas board officially only decided to take this course of action on Saturday. Otherwise they would have to have informed the shareholders...


Yeah, call me cynical but I'm gonna suggest AJ doesn't 'have' to do anything he doesn't want. :roll:

Really only bumping to link this, because he manages to sum up my thoughts quite nicely.
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Re: Qantas grounds all planes

Postby yurell » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:37 am UTC

If I didn't harbour so much dislike for Virgin Blue I'd boycott QANTAS for their obscene behaviour.
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