In Memoriam

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Vaniver
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In Memoriam

Postby Vaniver » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:26 am UTC

Spoilered: huge image
Spoiled: it's a picture of United flight 93's memorial plaque... thing.

Spoiler:
Image
Last edited by Felstaff on Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:27 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added spoiler tags. Added spoiled tags.
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Diadem
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Re: In Memoriam

Postby Diadem » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:20 am UTC

Wow, that's a pretty slap-in-the-face memorial. These people deserved more.
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Telchar
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Re: In Memoriam

Postby Telchar » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:38 am UTC

Is First Officer a pilot designation? It seems odd they mention the flight attendants but not the pilots w/ title. It also seems like their should be two if on a cross country flight if First Officer is a pilot designation.
Zamfir wrote:Yeah, that's a good point. Everyone is all about presumption of innocence in rape threads. But when Mexican drug lords build APCs to carry their henchmen around, we immediately jump to criminal conclusions without hard evidence.

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Re: In Memoriam

Postby Zamfir » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:31 am UTC

There's a captain and a first officer on the list

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Telchar
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Re: In Memoriam

Postby Telchar » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:39 am UTC

Ah, he just has such a short name it didn't jump out at me. Thanks!
Zamfir wrote:Yeah, that's a good point. Everyone is all about presumption of innocence in rape threads. But when Mexican drug lords build APCs to carry their henchmen around, we immediately jump to criminal conclusions without hard evidence.

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Re: In Memoriam

Postby Sharlos » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:23 am UTC

Suck to be a non-Christian on that list.

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Re: In Memoriam

Postby Lazar » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:30 am UTC

Sharlos wrote:Suck to be a non-Christian on that list.

Well, non-monotheist.
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Re: In Memoriam

Postby Dthen » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:01 pm UTC

I don't see how they gave their lives nor how they saved many others. Am I missing something?
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Re: In Memoriam

Postby yedidyak » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:11 pm UTC

Dthen wrote:I don't see how they gave their lives nor how they saved many others. Am I missing something?


They brought down the pane rather than let the terrorists crash it into a building somewhere.

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Re: In Memoriam

Postby Dthen » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:13 pm UTC

Oh right I see that plane. That's what I was missing.
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Re: In Memoriam

Postby schismtracer » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:23 pm UTC

These people deserved more.

Like what? A giant statue of Jesus hauling everyone off to heaven? Maybe with a little girl cuddling a kitten and waving an American flag nearby?

Understatement and simplicity aren't insults.

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Re: In Memoriam

Postby Dark567 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:32 pm UTC

Besides behind that plaque, there are two mitigating factors for the understatement and simplicity. First behind that plaque there are a set of bench and 40 wooden angels. Second, it is a temporary memorial, they are currently building a larger memorial that is still under construction.

This is what they are planning to build
http://www.nps.gov/flni/parknews/09rendering.htm
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Re: In Memoriam

Postby IcedT » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:16 pm UTC

schismtracer wrote:Understatement and simplicity aren't insults.

It's definitely a lot better than the Hero of the Proletariat treatment they gave MLK. Just sayin'.

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Re: In Memoriam

Postby Diadem » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:28 pm UTC

schismtracer wrote:These people deserved more.

Like what? A giant statue of Jesus hauling everyone off to heaven? Maybe with a little girl cuddling a kitten and waving an American flag nearby?

Understatement and simplicity aren't insults.

You completely misunderstood my point. I did not mean they deserve a larger memorial. I meant they do not deserve to have their memories abused for religious and nationalistic propaganda. This memorial is a slap in the face for any non-christian on that plane. But not just that. It's also a slap in the face of any christian on that plane who might think that this is not the best time and place for proselytizing. And what about those on that plane that didn't love their country?

This memorial doesn't honor these people. It uses their memory for propagandistic purposes.
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Re: In Memoriam

Postby Vaniver » Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:11 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:This memorial doesn't honor these people. It uses their memory for propagandistic purposes.
Is it possible for memorials to not be propaganda? What would honor them?
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Re: In Memoriam

Postby Elvish Pillager » Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:50 am UTC

What if it said:

"Remember these people? They were awesome. Then they died. And that sucked. As you observe this memorial, please remember how much it sucked that they died."

I don't think that would be propaganda for anything... 8)
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Re: In Memoriam

Postby Vaniver » Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:04 am UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:"Remember these people? They were awesome. Then they died. And that sucked. As you observe this memorial, please remember how much it sucked that they died."

I don't think that would be propaganda for anything... 8)
That's not why Flight 93 is worth remembering, though; the passengers are noteworthy because how they chose to die impacted the rest of us in a significant and positive way. Not only did the plane hit a vacant field instead of the U.S. Capitol, no attempt to hijack a plane for terrorist purposes has occurred in the last ten years, despite many plots to blow up or shoot down planes (and other targets). It seems highly probable that is because Flight 93 demonstrated that passengers can and will rise up against terrorists in their midst.
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Re: In Memoriam

Postby Elvish Pillager » Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:09 am UTC

...so? That's not what the memorial at the beginning of the thread says, either. It just says they were brave and gave their lives to save others. Which I (mainly for humor purposes) shortened to "they were awesome".
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Re: In Memoriam

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:22 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:
Elvish Pillager wrote:"Remember these people? They were awesome. Then they died. And that sucked. As you observe this memorial, please remember how much it sucked that they died."

I don't think that would be propaganda for anything... 8)
That's not why Flight 93 is worth remembering, though; the passengers are noteworthy because how they chose to die impacted the rest of us in a significant and positive way. Not only did the plane hit a vacant field instead of the U.S. Capitol, no attempt to hijack a plane for terrorist purposes has occurred in the last ten years, despite many plots to blow up or shoot down planes (and other targets). It seems highly probable that is because Flight 93 demonstrated that passengers can and will rise up against terrorists in their midst.


Especially if the passengers think that the hijackers intend to crash the plane instead of holding the passengers for ransom or just to flee the country. Not that hijackers never crashed planes during one of those types of hijacking*...

*In case you were wondering, the hijackers stormed the cockpit and demanded to be flown to another country. A country that the plane didn't have the fuel to reach. Pilots tried to explain this to the hijackers, but they thought it was a lie to keep the plane. When the plane had to make a crash landing, the hijackers thought it was another trick and wrestled for the controls, which made the disaster worse. Luckily, they weren't among the survivors.

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Re: In Memoriam

Postby Zamfir » Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:06 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:
Diadem wrote:This memorial doesn't honor these people. It uses their memory for propagandistic purposes.
Is it possible for memorials to not be propaganda? What would honor them?

For example,the same thing without god bless america. You can be almost sure that some of those people would not want their death attached to either Christian proselytising or to the idea that god should bless America in particular.

In general, it's a good idea to limit that kind of additions on memorials. Let the message be 'these people died', perhaps 'we honor them'. Beyond that, let viewers and next of kin make up their own message.

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Re: In Memoriam

Postby Diadem » Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:38 am UTC

Zamfir wrote:
Vaniver wrote:
Diadem wrote:This memorial doesn't honor these people. It uses their memory for propagandistic purposes.
Is it possible for memorials to not be propaganda? What would honor them?

For example,the same thing without god bless america. You can be almost sure that some of those people would not want their death attached to either Christian proselytising or to the idea that god should bless America in particular.

In general, it's a good idea to limit that kind of additions on memorials. Let the message be 'these people died', perhaps 'we honor them'. Beyond that, let viewers and next of kin make up their own message.

I'd change a few more lines, but that's the basic gist.

A memorial should honor the person by only containing those messages a person would agree with. I have no problem with saying 'God bless America' on the grave of someone who really believed that. But putting it on the grave of someone who, as Zamfir puts it, 'would not want their death attached to either Christian proselytising or to the idea that god should bless America in particular' is dishonering the memory of these people.

For memorials for groups of people this rule generalizes to "Don't put down controversial shit that not everybody in the group would agree with".

It's really not a hard rule to follow.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister


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