Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

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Kulantan
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

No, to further torture a metaphor, this is like seeing the shadow image of pigeons on the curtain. We don't need these folk to give up what is in the potentially multi-billion dollar device, just to do the basic science. To steal:

Minerva wrote:
• Put a proper flow rate meter on the water inlet, along with a thermocouple.
• Put a proper flow rate meter on the water outlet, along with a thermocouple. (If it's water and steam, actually, measuring the flow rate will be tricky, but let's just assume that it is conserved and the water doesn't just disappear.
• Put a good leak valve or needle valve with a known, controlled flow rate on the hydrogen line, or preferably a proper mass flow controller. Put a pressure transducer in the reactor vessel to measure the hydrogen pressure.
• Power the resistive heating element from a DC power supply and provide a direct measurement of the current through it and the voltage across it, independently of any other electronics.
• Plug all the above sensors into a data-logging acquisition interface and record them continuously.
• Put a HPGe detector or NaI scintillation detector or something similar next to the device, inside of any radiation shielding, along with a neutron detector. Record the type, count rate, and spectra, where practical, for any type of ionizing radiation that has actually been emitted.
• Record all this raw data from these sensors while the machine is running, and publish it and show us.
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Technical Ben
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

Deep_Thought wrote:
Spoiler:
AvatarIII wrote:if they actually are turning nickel and hydrogen into copper though, are there any other fully understood processes that could cause that?

No. Nuclear fusion and fission are literally alchemy - the turning of one element into another. To do that you have to add or subtract protons from the nucleus, and hope that you get a few neutrons as well otherwise the result is really unstable and will decay quickly.

Binding a proton to a nucleus involves getting the proton close enough that the strong nuclear force can grab it. To do so you have to fight the electrostatic force (like charges repel), and the only current way to do this involves giving the protons huge amounts of kinetic energy (with a helping hand from quantum tunnelling). Iron is the most stable element (which is why it's an incredibly common element).
To add protons to Iron or any subsequent element requires HUGE amounts of energy. The only common place in the universe that such energies are found is in exploding supernovas. That's how much energy we're talking, not even the sun will produce anything higher than iron during it's normal lifespan.

Spoiler:
Imagine your proton is a marble. The interplay of the strong and electrostatic forces is kind of volcano shaped, with very tall, very steep slopes and a deep pit in the middle. The nucleus sits in that pit. To get your marble into the pit, the only known way is to flick it really hard up the side of the volcano and hope it reaches the top, so it can fall into the pit. Quantum tunnelling makes this analogy a bit messy, as there is non-zero chance that the marble can suddenly jump through the side of the volcano. But this only becomes significant near the top, where the sides are already really thin.

Good to know my science trained instincts was correct.
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Deep_Thought
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

Technical Ben wrote:Good to know my science trained instincts was correct.

I needed to brush up a bit on nuclear physics before I could write that. I am rusty

Technical Ben
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

Oh, but my first instincts was "Iron is made in super novas". Then "um, we would need something not "cold" for iron". If cold fusion is ever done, we are going to get tiny changes first. IE elements next to each other in the periodic table.

Also, for those claiming "It's boiled water, so it must work", um, can't the "catalyst" just be Lithium? Water gone, trick done.
It's all physics and stamp collecting.
It's not a particle or a wave. It's just an exchange.

Deep_Thought
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

Iron can be made in normal stars. You need a super nova to get anything past iron. I mentioned Iron because that's the minimum/maximum* point on the binding energy chart. Rossi is claiming that nickel is transmuted into copper, which are next to each other in the periodic table, but to get a stable isotope requires the addition of 1 proton and 4 neutrons (or 5 protons and 4 subsequent decays). I'm still sceptical, just making sure we don't put any words in Rossi's mouth.

*Depending on which way round you draw the axes.

Technical Ben
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

Well. My science fails.
(Iron being only seeded in nova right? Not only made, oops. That and not checking if the claimed elements are next to each other in the table. )
It's all physics and stamp collecting.
It's not a particle or a wave. It's just an exchange.

Glass Fractal
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

Technical Ben wrote:Also, for those claiming "It's boiled water, so it must work", um, can't the "catalyst" just be Lithium? Water gone, trick done.

Or fire, fire would work, since apparently no one has ever seen the thing in operation. You could just stick a blow torch inside.

yurell
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

Deep_Thought wrote:Iron can be made in normal stars. You need a super nova to get anything past iron. I mentioned Iron because that's the minimum/maximum* point on the binding energy chart.

Thought I'd just point out Nickel-62 is, followed by two isotopes of iron. Nickel-62 isn't as common as iron, though, because it's bloody hard to form, with no nice alpha capture chain leading to it.

And I know I shouldn't capitalise isotope names, but I just think it looks better like that.
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The Reaper
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.c ... ment-59867
PRESS RELEASE :
Bologna-Rome (Italy) August 4th 2011
EFA- Energia da Fonti Alternative srl, the Italian Company through which the rights for the production of Andrea Rossi’s E-Cat were granted to Praxen Defkalion Green Technologies LTD, publicly announces that the License and Technology Transfer Agreement between the two companies has been recently terminated. All business relationships with Praxen , the Cyprus based company that owns the Greek company Defkalion Green Technologies S.A., have been cancelled and asof today neither Praxen nor Defkalion, nor any other Greek company whatsoever holds any rights for the production of the E-Cat or for any other exploitation of Andrea Rossi’s technology.

Furthermore Andrea Rossi and EFA announce that no information, nor industrial secret, nor any technology whatsoever has been neither transferred, nor disclosed, neither to Praxen, nor to Defkalion, nor to any other Greek company whatsoever and currently Andrea Rossi and EFA are not planning to deal with any other project in Greece.
Not one single test, of the many demonstrations of the E-Cat technology held around the world, has ever been done in Greeceand no E-Cat has ever been brought, produced, or assembled in the territory of the Hellenic Republic: so not only the technology is still fully owned by Andrea Rossi’s company, Leonardo Corporation, but it still remains a well preserved industrial secret.

Any declaration or public announcement of third parties claiming possession of rights on the E-Cat technology and/or inside knowledge of said technology, as well as any statement of third parties in conflict with the above facts shall be considered a fake and treated as misleading information.

Andrea Rossi is the inventor of the “Method and Apparatus for carrying out Nickel and Hydrogen Exothermal reactions” (known to the general public as E-Cat) for which international patent demand no. WO2009/125444 is pending and Italian Patent office has already been issued on April 6th, 2011 the final patent no. 0001387256.
EFA Energia da Fonti Alternative s.r.l. is incorporated in Italy.
Leonardo Corporation is incorporated in New Hampshire, USA.
Contact:
EFA srl- Via Marsili 4- 40124 Bologna- Italy
Awesome press release. I even corrected a spelling error. -_-

Also:
I prefer that the reasons will be cleared by a judge by a verdict. Facts, not chatters, as usual with me. Our attorneys have filed a suit.
I confirm that our 1 MW plant will be put in operation in the USA, after an agreement we made last week with one of the most important entities of the USA; the tests will be made by the highest level scientists you can think of. I cannot give the names, until after the test. To the test will attend the highest level scientific journalists I know.
Thank you for your kind attention,
A.R.
[edit:fix'd Hellenic, thanks Deep_Thought]
Last edited by The Reaper on Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:38 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

Deep_Thought
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

The Reaper wrote:Awesome press release. I even corrected a spelling error. -_-

Hmmm, shouldn't it be Hellenic Republic as well? *Strokes non-existant beard*

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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

* Wonders what the level cap is for scientists *
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
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Deep_Thought
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

Diadem wrote:* Wonders what the level cap is for scientists *

$$e^{i\pi}$$
Obviously! Stupid LaTeX markup won't go in-line as far as I can tell

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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

Scientist levels are negative? What's the starting level then? -13.6?
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

Deep_Thought
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

Yes. You reach level 0 as a scientist by creating your own universe in a lab so you can play around with the fundamental physical constants, ie you are effectively a God and have 'escaped' this universe

Technical Ben
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

So mathematics then?
It's all physics and stamp collecting.
It's not a particle or a wave. It's just an exchange.

Mittagessen
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

Technical Ben wrote:So mathematics then?

Economics. Mathematics require at least a bit of consistency so an all-mighty god has to be an economist.

ConMan
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

Deep_Thought wrote:Obviously! Stupid LaTeX markup won't go in-line as far as I can tell

Try using the {imath} tags rather than the {math} ones (or the double-\$, which I didn't realise was an alternative).
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

It's a lot of copper pipes with nichel powder and hydrogen being pumped in somehow? Then it's just a big metal-hydride battery, isn't it?

Technical Ben
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

Mittagessen wrote:
Technical Ben wrote:So mathematics then?

Economics. Mathematics require at least a bit of consistency so an all-mighty god has to be an economist.

Well, you can cheat and make your universe consistent. Then no need for economists. Sorry, it seems Mathematicians win at everything.
It's all physics and stamp collecting.
It's not a particle or a wave. It's just an exchange.

The Reaper
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

Technical Ben wrote:
Mittagessen wrote:
Technical Ben wrote:So mathematics then?

Economics. Mathematics require at least a bit of consistency so an all-mighty god has to be an economist.

Well, you can cheat and make your universe consistent. Then no need for economists. Sorry, it seems Mathematicians win at everything.

Shit's crazy, yo.

Glass Fractal
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

Technical Ben wrote:
Mittagessen wrote:
Technical Ben wrote:So mathematics then?

Economics. Mathematics require at least a bit of consistency so an all-mighty god has to be an economist.

Well, you can cheat and make your universe consistent. Then no need for economists. Sorry, it seems Mathematicians win at everything.

But then it wouldn't be complete.

Technical Ben
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

Well, it's your universe. So it's up to you if you want economists or not. I'd be more worries about lawyers myself.
It's all physics and stamp collecting.
It's not a particle or a wave. It's just an exchange.

Deep_Thought
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

Lawyers are a response to the law that some people in any given group will be dicks.

This may be a consistent law among all possible universes. Sadly.

vodka.cobra
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

Wow, XKCD fora > Swedish Skeptic's Society in both skepticism and understanding of science.
If the above comment has anything to do with hacking or cryptography, note that I work for a PHP security company and might know what I'm talking about.

Technical Ben
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

Deep_Thought wrote:Lawyers are a response to the law that some people in any given group will be dicks.

This may be a consistent law among all possible universes. Sadly.

Not if I have a giant orbital cannon. All problems are solved by giant orbital cannons.
It's all physics and stamp collecting.
It's not a particle or a wave. It's just an exchange.

The Reaper
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

http://pesn.com/2011/08/10/9501891_Defk ... _of_Rossi/
tl;dr
Defkalion Green Technologies maintains its strong support to Andrea Rossi.

johnny_7713
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

vodka.cobra wrote:Wow, XKCD fora > Swedish Skeptic's Society in both skepticism and understanding of science.

One president does not a society make.

Sizik
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

There's been another third-party study. It seems like it might be working, somehow.
she/they
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

Comments are hilarious. There is the usual stuff about Einstein etc., but also someone who says that Yogi Berra invented TV in 1929, therefore Rossi is not a fraud because open your minds.

Tyndmyr
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

Technical Ben wrote:
Deep_Thought wrote:Lawyers are a response to the law that some people in any given group will be dicks.

This may be a consistent law among all possible universes. Sadly.

Not if I have a giant orbital cannon. All problems are solved by giant orbital cannons.

The number of problems remaining unsolved are directly proportional to the size of the explosion.

sardia
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

Tyndmyr wrote:
Technical Ben wrote:
Deep_Thought wrote:Lawyers are a response to the law that some people in any given group will be dicks.

This may be a consistent law among all possible universes. Sadly.

Not if I have a giant orbital cannon. All problems are solved by giant orbital cannons.

The number of problems remaining unsolved are directly proportional to the size of the explosion.

And they laughed at me when I said i could solve high unemployment with explosives. Now who's laughing. Hahaha

Vahir
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

Tyndmyr wrote:
Technical Ben wrote:
Deep_Thought wrote:Lawyers are a response to the law that some people in any given group will be dicks.

This may be a consistent law among all possible universes. Sadly.

Not if I have a giant orbital cannon. All problems are solved by giant orbital cannons.

The number of problems remaining unsolved are inversely proportional to the size of the explosion.

NITPICKING

Derek
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

sardia wrote:And they laughed at me when I said i could solve high unemployment with explosives. Now who's laughing. Hahaha

Not the unemployed, that's for sure.

HungryHobo
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

Sizik wrote:There's been another third-party study. It seems like it might be working, somehow.

huh... A test at a 3rd party lab, using their own equipment.

if it really was a third party lab that's very interesting. from what I can find, it isn't really.
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bentheimmigrant
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

"oil futures have remained volatile since"... Nothing to do with crises in Russia/Ukraine and the Middle East, fracking, or the fact that oil futures are generally a volatile market...
"Comment is free, but facts are sacred" - C.P. Scott

Mutex
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

HungryHobo wrote:
Sizik wrote:There's been another third-party study. It seems like it might be working, somehow.

huh... A test at a 3rd party lab, using their own equipment.

if it really was a third party lab that's very interesting. from what I can find, it isn't really.

I made a half-hearted attempt to google some of the names from the paper. The first one seems to be a scientist who died in 1965. The second one appears to possibly be a genuine scientist in charge of a department at a university. That's as far as I got.

Minerva
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

Actually, we can forget about the Bethe-Weizsäcker formula, gamma-ray spectroscopy, Coulomb potentials, the curve of binding energy or anything like that.

Just send in James Randi to inspect the system, consult with any experts he chooses, look at what's going on and set up an experiment and document and report the results in a way he thinks is appropriate.
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oxoiron
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Re: Rossi Cold Fusion Validated by Swedish Skeptic's Society

Deep_Thought wrote:
The Reaper wrote:Awesome press release. I even corrected a spelling error. -_-

Hmmm, shouldn't it be Hellenic Republic as well? *Strokes non-existant beard*
Hmmm, shouldn't it be non-existent? *Strokes existent beard*
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