Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

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Ulc
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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Ulc » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:37 pm UTC

[quote="Zcorp"
No sir, the cop was not 'in the right' the cop used poor judgement in deciding this was a situation that warranted his intervention at all. And yes he continued to show poor judgement throughout the rest of the event but it was absolutely foolish to try to cite anyone for riding a bike on that street and moving out of the way when a car came.[/quote]

He wouldn't in any way be in the way of the car if he had kept in the right side. That's one of the reasons that rule exist, to make people predictable. There was no reason at all to assume danger by keeping in the right side. And his judgement actually increased the danger, because of the fact that being unpredictable in the traffic is where accidents happen.

In this case, he was not dangerous to anyone but himself (unless of course there was someone other on the street than him and the car, such as frail old person that can't move out of the way of a person biking into them), but his behaviour was dangerous for himself. And yes, we do correct instances of rule breaking, even when the rules wasn't important, because we would like people to have a habit of behaving after the rules.
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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Princess Marzipan » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:40 pm UTC

The POLICE REPORT states that Kersey did not become physically aggressive until finding his front door locked, and then finding himself on the porch along with an armed police officer. And rather than back out to the yard or sidewalk or street, the officer decided to physically force Kersey into submission...to what end?

So many of the things police like to cite people over aren't so much premeditated criminal acts but the natural human response to the police officer themselves. Logic disappears and fear takes over - standard fight or flight. And I have never seen a police officer make an earnest attempt at defusing fight-or-flight. They escalate situations and then the civilian citizen ends up taking all the blame. Sometimes the citizen is acquitted or the charges are dropped, fewer times the officer faces any actual consequences for having made the incorrect split-second decision. But it always seems forgotten that when these situations occur, we're punishing people for acting illogically after they were put into an illogical state by the presence of an aggressive police officer.

Officers tend to expect that your average citizen will, upon being approached by a police officer, both believe no unprovoked harm will come to them and cooperate fully because if they aren't a criminal, they have no reason to do otherwise. They make no attempt to assure people of their safety, and in fact sometimes deliberately disabuse people of the notion by threatening to make use of their arsenal. They mistakenly assume that lack of cooperation is either disrespectful or indicative of wrongdoing - and a citizen simply asserting their rights can find themselves detained or arrested. Officers may not expect that citizens understand all the reasons behind a particular command, but they do expect that a citizen will put away their video camera or move away from a scene just because they're told to - and when an officers' command is in direct conflict with our constitutional rights, I think a little reticence is pretty understandable.

It seems to me that police officers and their training do a terrible job of recognizing the conflicting interests and lizard-brain reactions that occur in any confrontation with police officers. Or maybe they do recognize it, and have decided that just ramping up the lizard-brain tactics to maximum and subduing anyone they feel like is the easiest solution. And they're probably right, in that it's the easiest. But it's a solution that places the onus of control of a situation on the citizens, rather than the cops. There are tons of youtube videos and online resources for how to control one's interaction with cops, none of which should be necessary in a free and just society. Why is it not the other way around...? Why are officers not expected to be able to control an interaction with civilians, and to keep things...well, civil, unless absolutely necessary? No, makes much more sense to place the responsibility here on the group of people who DON'T do this for a living, HAVEN'T had training on how to navigate these kinds of situations, and who may not have a logical reason to fear for their physical safety but who DEFINITELY have a very strong lizard-brain reaction to finding themselves threatened or even potentially threatened.

Zcorp: I live in the greater Boston area where bikes on roads are Kind of a Big Deal, and I see no problem with bike safety and rules being serious business enough to warrant police intervention.
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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Zcorp » Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:13 pm UTC

Ulc wrote:He wouldn't in any way be in the way of the car if he had kept in the right side. That's one of the reasons that rule exist, to make people predictable. There was no reason at all to assume danger by keeping in the right side. And his judgement actually increased the danger, because of the fact that being unpredictable in the traffic is where accidents happen.

In this case, he was not dangerous to anyone but himself (unless of course there was someone other on the street than him and the car, such as frail old person that can't move out of the way of a person biking into them), but his behaviour was dangerous for himself. And yes, we do correct instances of rule breaking, even when the rules wasn't important, because we would like people to have a habit of behaving after the rules.

No need for red herrings, look at the street. This isn't an area that you would hard pressed to suggest even had low traffic.

Suggesting that getting off of Andrews St to ride on the sidewalk is a 'unpredictable' and thus dangerous action is absurdity. In this case he was not dangerous at all. While we do 'correct' instances of rule breaking understanding the rational for those rules and correctly applying them in situations that warrant correction is very basic judgement that 17 year old mentally handicapped children understand, it is not a stretch to expect an officer to display the same level of judgement relating to the law and the circumstance

Princess Marzipan wrote:Zcorp: I live in the greater Boston area where bikes on roads are Kind of a Big Deal, and I see no problem with bike safety and rules being serious business enough to warrant police intervention
Bikes like any vehicle should be treated as important as should the laws associated with their operation. However, people - even officers - are intelligent enough distinguish the difference between an area with any threatening traffic at all and a kid riding his bike on Andrews St.

Have either of you looked at the street? I'd imagine you would both be opposed to jaywalking across this street as well right? Dangerous business that jaywalking on streets. And it is law after all. Certainly no human is capable of making the judgement on if it should apply on that street, better to just enforce it. Streets like Andrews are gateway streets anyway, start walking across incredibly safe ones and displaying reasonable judgement, the next thing you know you are in Germany playing frogger with the autoban or driving headlong into traffic with your bike.

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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Princess Marzipan » Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:36 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:Bikes like any vehicle should be treated as important as should the laws associated with their operation. However, people - even officers - are intelligent enough distinguish the difference between an area with any threatening traffic at all and a kid riding his bike on Andrews St.

Have either of you looked at the street? I'd imagine you would both be opposed to jaywalking across this street as well right?


I did in fact follow your link and take a look at the street view. That's immaterial though. If an officer sees you violating a law, I have no problem with that law then being enforced. There may be a problem with the law itself, but police enforcing laws you disagree with is wildly different from police escalating situations and abusing their authority.

Your argument is that the cop should have known not to enforce that particular law on that particular street, and I can't agree with that.
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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Zcorp » Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:40 pm UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:I did in fact follow your link and take a look at the street view. That's immaterial though. If an officer sees you violating a law, I have no problem with that law then being enforced. There may be a problem with the law itself, but police enforcing laws you disagree with is wildly different from police escalating situations and abusing their authority.

Your argument is that the cop should have known not to enforce that particular law on that particular street, and I can't agree with that.

Circumstance is immaterial...

So then you would agree it that individuals should be fined of jaywalking on Andrews as well right? Or two kids playing catch in the street.

Edit:
And while I agree it is wildly different than chasing, acting in a way that is obviously going to be perceived as aggressive, tasing and beating the kid; it does relate the officers inability to show reasonable judgement.
Last edited by Zcorp on Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:49 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Ulc » Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:41 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:Suggesting that getting off of Andrews St to ride on the sidewalk is a 'unpredictable' and thus dangerous action is absurdity. In this case he was not dangerous at all. While we do 'correct' instances of rule breaking understanding the rational for those rules and correctly applying them in situations that warrant correction is very basic judgement that 17 year old mentally handicapped children understand, it is not a stretch to expect an officer to display the same level of judgement relating to the law and the circumstance


I can come up with about a dozen ways his actions could have harmed someone through the use of judgement, and the time it took would purely be how fast I could write, not how fast my imagination runs. How many ways can I come up with that brought anyone in danger if he followed the rules? Exactly zero.

By and large, we don't want people to make judgements in the traffic, because in the traffic we're dealing with several tons of metal moving at fairly high speeds. And when you deal with that, mistakes tend to go very wrongly - and use of judgement means that people somewhere will make mistakes. It's not even certain that it's the diverging from the rules, is the one that makes a mistake. Imagine that the officer had thought that he was closer than he actually was and swerved to avoid him? Crashing into the mother walking with her toddler?

The rules in the traffic are there for a reason, to make it safer - and since we're dealing with humans, teaching to adhere to the rules as a habit is a pretty damn good idea, rather than to teach people to adhere if they believe the rules makes sense. And issuing fines, or a more reasonable on first offence "partner, stick to the rules next time, 'kay?", to make people learn that, is a damn good idea.

the next thing you know you are in Germany playing frogger with the autoban or driving headlong into traffic with your bike.


Oh for the love of god. Stop straw manning.
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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Zcorp » Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:48 pm UTC

Ulc wrote:How many ways can I come up with that brought anyone in danger if he followed the rules? Exactly zero.
I suggest you try better utilizing that imagination then.

By and large, we don't want people to make judgements in the traffic, because in the traffic we're dealing with several tons of metal moving at fairly high speeds. And when you deal with that, mistakes tend to go very wrongly - and use of judgement means that people somewhere will make mistakes. It's not even certain that it's the diverging from the rules, is the one that makes a mistake. Imagine that the officer had thought that he was closer than he actually was and swerved to avoid him? Crashing into the mother walking with her toddler?
That again would of been quite poor judgement of the officer, and it of course could of happened even if he was on the correct side of the street.

the next thing you know you are in Germany playing frogger with the autoban or driving headlong into traffic with your bike.


Oh for the love of god. Stop straw manning.
Straw-man? Not at all, you are the one suggesting that being able to display reasonable judgement in safe a circumstance leads to repeat offenses in circumstances that are legitimately dangerous. I just added some hyperbole to your premis.

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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Princess Marzipan » Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:17 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:
Princess Marzipan wrote:Your argument is that the cop should have known not to enforce that particular law on that particular street, and I can't agree with that.

Circumstance is immaterial...

So then you would agree it that individuals should be fined of jaywalking on Andrews as well right? Or two kids playing catch in the street

[...]

And while I agree it is wildly different than chasing, acting in a way that is obviously going to be perceived as aggressive, tasing and beating the kid; it does relate the officers inability to show reasonable judgement.
I said escalating, not chasing. I wouldn't consider chasing in and of itself to be escalation here. I think the point where this got out of hand was the officer's reaction to Kersey's physicality. The officer had just chased someone a fair distance and essentially backed him into a corner - closing the distance by stepping onto the porch was unnecessary, and if the officer's safety is threatened by being near Kersey, perhaps the officer should try not being near Kersey and instead making an attempt to calm things down.

As to jaywalking and catch in the street...I mean, I don't know. Seems like an esoteric and off topic issue to me, because the situation we're talking about doesn't involve either. Further, we have no reason to believe the same sequence of events would have occurred if we replace "riding a bike on the wrong side of the road" with either. For what it's worth I have no blanket objection to police intervention in either circumstance, assuming that intervention doesn't follow the trend of being escalated further than necessary by the officer.
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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Ulc » Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:34 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:
Ulc wrote:How many ways can I come up with that brought anyone in danger if he followed the rules? Exactly zero.
I suggest you try better utilizing that imagination then.


Unless someone breaks the traffic rules, there simply isn't room for that, because the traffic rules include things like slowing down if you're not sure of what is going to happen, to increase reaction time.

If the following conditions was met, I would have no objection whatsoever to a police offier reacting to jaywalking by itself.

1) A priority of offences are imposed, such that the more severe crimes are pursued. Murder is more important than mugging, mugging is more important than biking on sidewalks.
2) The reaction is appropriately scaled to the severity of the crime. A attempt at murder gets very severe reaction, including if necessary, lethal reaction. A mugging gets physical apprehension, possible using non-lethal weaponry, biking on side walks get a stern talking to at first offence.

The problem in this case was the escalated reaction, and poor handling of a person the police officer was supposed to know would have a very poor reaction to a perceived threat.

And the strawman is that I'm not using a slippery slope argument at all - I'm saying that teaching by habit is better than teaching judgement, in a situation where mistakes are deadly, and judgements must be made very fast.
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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Zcorp » Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:47 pm UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:I said escalating, not chasing. I wouldn't consider chasing in and of itself to be escalation here. I think the point where this got out of hand was the officer's reaction to Kersey's physicality. The officer had just chased someone a fair distance and essentially backed him into a corner - closing the distance by stepping onto the porch was unnecessary, and if the officer's safety is threatened by being near Kersey, perhaps the officer should try not being near Kersey and instead making an attempt to calm things down.
by chasing I meant into the house, but we don't seem to be in any disagreement here.

As to jaywalking and catch in the street...I mean, I don't know. Seems like an esoteric and off topic issue to me, because the situation we're talking about doesn't involve either. Further, we have no reason to believe the same sequence of events would have occurred if we replace "riding a bike on the wrong side of the road" with either. For what it's worth I have no blanket objection to police intervention in either circumstance, assuming that intervention doesn't follow the trend of being escalated further than necessary by the officer.
The situation we are talking became an officers ability to judge the level of danger and ability to judge specific behavior and judgement of the citizen in regards to the law and dangering society. Riding a bike on the wrong side of an basically no-traffic all residential tiny street is quite equatable to jaywalking on that same street in level of danger and law breaking.

You seem to be suggesting people should have no ability to judge safety for themselves in instances where they have nearly no potential of causing harm to others themselves or destroying property? Jaywalking is illegal and thus a good officer should always issue a citation or warn a individual who does this action despite the realistic danger of doing it in a given circumstance?

Ulc wrote:Unless someone breaks the traffic rules, there simply isn't room for that, because the traffic rules include things like slowing down if you're not sure of what is going to happen, to increase reaction time.

If the following conditions was met, I would have no objection whatsoever to a police offier reacting to jaywalking by itself.

Really? You honestly believe people shouldn't be able to cross Andrews St legally, and that an good police officer would fine or warn an individual that does so? It becomes hard to talk about police abuse when you want to set up a system that enables it for something as insignificant as jaywalking in general and specifically on a street like that or riding on the wrong side of the street or even in circles for play. If you expect the job of the police to primarily be to enforce laws (rather than protect and serve) you first need to set up reasonable laws and procedures.

Now going further into the story the procedures used by the cop are the established or close enough to the established actions that he are not facing any criminal charges for the behavior. Bad cops suck, but when the system enables the average cop to be a bad citizen the problem is less with the individual cops and more with something else...

And the strawman is that I'm not using a slippery slope argument at all - I'm saying that teaching by habit is better than teaching judgement, in a situation where mistakes are deadly, and judgements must be made very fast.

Creating robotic drivers, bikers or general citizens is not at all safe practice. Educating people into good driving practices and making them aware of the dangers and how to generally avoid them, while making sure they are capable enough to use good judgement in specific circumstances is the way to increase safety. Not to mandate habits that often create accidents themselves as the individual is unable to change their behavior as the circumstances change.

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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Ulc » Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:06 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:Creating robotic drivers, bikers or general citizens is not at all safe practice. Educating people into good driving practices and making them aware of the dangers and how to generally avoid them, while making sure they are capable enough to use good judgement in specific circumstances is the way to increase safety. Not to mandate habits that often create accidents themselves as the individual is unable to change their behavior as the circumstances change.


I hear about two or three accidents per year here in Denmark caused by something other than someone making a mistake in judgement about how to break the law. All of those are caused by large trucks having blind spots. In all other cases the accident happens because someone decided that it was in good judgement to break the rules. And as far as I know, Copenhagen is one of the cities with the largest biking population in the world.

Sadly, because humans are incapable of following precise instructions, our laws have to include some degree of judgement on how to apply the rules. That judgement however, should never be to directly break the law, as the kid did.

On jaywalking, I might have misunderstood the term, as far as I know, it's walking parallel on the street, not going directly across it. Having a law that prohibits crossing (at the shortest route over the road) a road is silly.
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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Princess Marzipan » Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:16 pm UTC

It's pretty simple from my end: person disobeys bike safety laws, police officer moves to cite or warn.

I have no problem with this when the officer understands the bike laws and is enforcing them correctly.

I'm not going to argue about jaywalking anymore because it's entirely irrelevant. You issued a challenge to make a good argument that the officer should have stopped Kersey based on his breaking of bike safety laws.

Ulc wrote:It's potentially dangerous to bystanders and/or himself. And might be indicative of a willingness to ignore the rules for biking on a street where doing so is more problematic.

It's the same reason that people are told not to run the red light in their cars, even if the other roads are entirely empty. It's a dangerous habit, even if each specific instance of it isn't dangerous./quote]You simply persist that it was poor judgment for the officer to engage here, without actually explaining how or why.

Zcorp wrote:Yes because this officer displayed such horrible judgement we must assume that every kid riding his bike on a tiny residential street next to their house suggests defiant behavior toward road safety and the expressed behavior is a habit rather than displaying reasonable judgement of the circumstance of that street. Judgement that included moving out of the way when even the very remote possibility of danger presented itself.

No sir, the cop was not 'in the right' the cop used poor judgement in deciding this was a situation that warranted his intervention at all. And yes he continued to show poor judgement throughout the rest of the event but it was absolutely foolish to try to cite anyone for riding a bike on that street and moving out of the way when a car came.

This basically comes down to that you disagree with the officer's decision to engage in the first place - which is fine, but can we agree that it's actually a separate issue from how the engagement escalated?
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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Aikanaro » Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:51 pm UTC

Felltir wrote:
Aikanaro wrote:Is it bad that I want there to be rioting over this? And that part of me wishes an angry mob would lynch the officers involved? Actually, when was the last time a corrupt cop was lynched?


Oh yes, of course. Death for violence. A head for an eye. That's a wonderful way to meter justice.

Actually, it's not so much about justice, or even revenge. It's about fear and accountability. These cops (and cops everywhere) do shit like this because they know they can get away with it, that there will be no consequences for their actions. I wish someone would demonstrate otherwise. If it happened enough, maybe this shit would stop. If you have a good way to stop it within legal bounds on a large scale (that would get results), I'd love to hear it. So far, public outcry seems to accomplish roughly dick.

I want cops, who are about to take advantage of their position like this, to stop and think, "What's the worst thing that the public is likely to do to me if I abuse my power over this individual in this way?"
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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby sourmìlk » Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:49 am UTC

If the officer were to have stopped after the first pepper spraying, I might be able to consider this a glorious clusterfuck of misunderstanding, but the fact that the officer then continued to tase and beat the kid pushes this clearly into the realm of police brutality.

However, to all the people saying that this is symptomatic of a systematic problem with the police force, I'd advise you to either be aware of selection bias, or show how common and occurrence this really is.
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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby addams » Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:51 am UTC

Aikanaro wrote:
Felltir wrote:
Aikanaro wrote:Is it bad that I want there to be rioting over this? And that part of me wishes an angry mob would lynch the officers involved? Actually, when was the last time a corrupt cop was lynched?


Oh yes, of course. Death for violence. A head for an eye. That's a wonderful way to meter justice.

Actually, it's not so much about justice, or even revenge. It's about fear and accountability. These cops (and cops everywhere) do shit like this because they know they can get away with it, that there will be no consequences for their actions. I wish someone would demonstrate otherwise. If it happened enough, maybe this shit would stop. If you have a good way to stop it within legal bounds on a large scale (that would get results), I'd love to hear it. So far, public outcry seems to accomplish roughly dick.

I want cops, who are about to take advantage of their position like this, to stop and think, "What's the worst thing that the public is likely to do to me if I abuse my power over this individual in this way?"


Start by administering both IQ and EQ tests to all Police as a condition of continued employment.

Not every town has the exact same problem. Every town must have a way of giving the SAT. It is a way to start. Most smart and educated people are also kind. Not all. But; Most.
Kindness. It is a kind of intelligence.
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What are we going to do about this little problem that we have? In Denmark bike accidents are a big deal. A bike wreck is a big deal here, too.
How many Americans live in Jails? Is it a big number?
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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Kizyr » Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:34 am UTC

Tirian wrote:Thank you for your concern, but no. Even granting the expanded story, I'm saying that it is ironic that the boy was found incompetent when it is the police officers who elevated an instantly-corrected traffic violation (a bicycle violation, no less) to a chase and apprehension that evidently necessitated use of their entire "non-violent" arsenal. That demonstrates an astonishing lack of perspective. Write the damned ticket and hand it to his mother, Columbo, don't enter the house and then start fighting with everyone who is trying to defend the child against your assault. I guess not, that would require calming down and actually living up to the title of "peace officer".

Your curious notion that the police officers were the victims in this exchange seems to have left me incoherent with rage, so I'll leave it open for someone else to dissect.

Incoherent with rage directed at me, or at the officers? All I did was interpret in more plain language what the report was citing; if you want to get upset that there was a charge where the officer was considered the 'victim', then get upset at the officers who made the charge, not at me. It's rather odd if you're upset with me for only interpreting the article.

The section that you quoted cited the charges that were made against the 17-year old kid. The charges against the kid were dropped (where it's alleged that the kid was resisting arrest/etc.) because the kid himself was deemed incompetent and therefore unable to actually commit an offence like resisting arrest or assaulting a police officer. The "victim" of the assault charge would've been the police officer (Hooper, presumably) -- which, to me, is also an odd way for it to turn out, hence why I place "victim" in quotation marks.

The problem is that you have someone in the position of authority able to instigate a confrontation and then bring charges against the other person. It has direct parallel to other similar stories that've cropped up in N&A over the years, though not in all cases do the charges get dropped. KF
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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Tiberius » Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:02 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:However, to all the people saying that this is symptomatic of a systematic problem with the police force, I'd advise you to either be aware of selection bias, or show how common and occurrence this really is.

Well cops are twice as likely to rape someone and five times as likely to murder someone, so ya I'd say it's a systemic problem. One of the biggest problems is that cops are naturally more likely to be sociopaths.

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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Technical Ben » Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:27 am UTC

There seems to be zero room for movement in some areas of policing. I'm just glad I have my full mental and physical capacity. I have family who do not. So this kind of thing is extremely worrying. Even in riots the police now think "kettling" is better than head on attack. So why not apply the same to day to day incidents?
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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Manial » Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:42 am UTC

Tiberius wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:However, to all the people saying that this is symptomatic of a systematic problem with the police force, I'd advise you to either be aware of selection bias, or show how common and occurrence this really is.

Well cops are twice as likely to rape someone and five times as likely to murder someone, so ya I'd say it's a systemic problem. One of the biggest problems is that cops are naturally more likely to be sociopaths.
Do you have a source for those? Not that I doubt you, but I'd love to read them.

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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Aikanaro » Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:01 am UTC

Tiberius wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:However, to all the people saying that this is symptomatic of a systematic problem with the police force, I'd advise you to either be aware of selection bias, or show how common and occurrence this really is.

Well cops are twice as likely to rape someone and five times as likely to murder someone, so ya I'd say it's a systemic problem. One of the biggest problems is that cops are naturally more likely to be sociopaths.

Well, I'd argue it's more likely that sociopaths are more likely than the average person to become a cop, but comes out the same.
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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby johnny_7713 » Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:05 pm UTC

Aikanaro wrote:I want cops, who are about to take advantage of their position like this, to stop and think, "What's the worst thing that the public is likely to do to me if I abuse my power over this individual in this way?"


Is there actually that much thought that goes into these situations though? Are the possible repercussions even considered? People commit armed robberies and murders every day, knowing full well that they can go to prison for life, or even be executed if caught.
This is not to say that we shouldn't make an effort to punish cops like this, or that we shouldn't have harsh penalties, but just that they might not be as much of deterrent as you think.

Teaching police officers more about how to de-escalate situations like this and how to deal with people with mental handicaps along with a concious effort to change law enforcement's 'company culture' is probably more effective.

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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Zcorp » Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:45 pm UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:It's pretty simple from my end: person disobeys bike safety laws, police officer moves to cite or warn.

I have no problem with this when the officer understands the bike laws and is enforcing them correctly.

I'm not going to argue about jaywalking anymore because it's entirely irrelevant. You issued a challenge to make a good argument that the officer should have stopped Kersey based on his breaking of bike safety laws.
And no one has proposed a good argument, the only thing stated has been 'well its against the law, and officers job is to enforce the law so...'

This basically comes down to that you disagree with the officer's decision to engage in the first place - which is fine, but can we agree that it's actually a separate issue from how the engagement escalated?
Oh yeah, we started off there. Then you said "I don't think ANYONE is of the opinion that the officer should never have engaged in the first place," I and stated I have that opinion. This was not a circumstance where riding on the wrong side of the street is a danger and any officer with half decent judgement would be aware of that.


addams wrote:Start by administering both IQ and EQ tests to all Police as a condition of continued employment.

Not every town has the exact same problem. Every town must have a way of giving the SAT. It is a way to start. Most smart and educated people are also kind. Not all. But; Most.
Kindness. It is a kind of intelligence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_intelligence
That is not the best work that I have read on the subject. There is also the school of positive psychology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_psychology
What are we going to do about this little problem that we have? In Denmark bike accidents are a big deal. A bike wreck is a big deal here, too.
How many Americans live in Jails? Is it a big number?

It is not quite that easy, we don't have a good enough concept of the personality of an idea officer because really there isn't one. Although, there are some definitive aspects of intelligence not desired in officers, but the authority and power of the position often attracts those people. Some of ones that are adept at deception are going to slip through your vetting and the vetting process itself has to be constantly changing and creative. Good hiring practices are incredibly expensive.

The ideal officer is someone who can be the correct variable to enter a potentially dangerous or highly emotional situation and bring safety and some level of resolution. However, the variables in the situation are not static, the personalities and environment of the people besides the officer change each time. Because that is not something we are capable of educating efficiently right now (or possibility even at all) we give officers standard procedures and behaviors to perform. Those standards and behaviors essentially force them to be robotic in the way they handle the public. It forces any interaction with an officer and the public to be dangerous as both the officer and the citizen, if acting rationally within the system. These two parties are then often going to deceive or not cooperate with each other rather than cooperate as cooperating with the opposing party is dangerous for either party's job within the established system. This includes small interactions like an officer coming up to your window and asking you if you know why you were pulled over or if you knew how fast you were going. The best course of action for the citizen is to deny knowledge, stating your that you knew and giving that knowledge to the officer can only hurt you.

Also this is a bit off topic, so spoiler
Spoiler:
Positive psychology is a dangerous movement. The goal of positive psychology is to self-delude individuals into positive feelings. It essentially amounts to 'fake it till you make' happiness. Every other picture of mental health focuses on removing delusion and creating self-awareness. Cultivating a mental attitude that examines ones beliefs, feelings and behaviors and critically reflects on them to better understand, possibly change and work with themselves and their surroundings. Positive Psychology wants none of that, it is wants you to stick our head in the sand and just feel better.


Aikanaro wrote:I want cops, who are about to take advantage of their position like this, to stop and think, "What's the worst thing that the public is likely to do to me if I abuse my power over this individual in this way?"
God no, Cops should be asking themselves if their behavior is correctly serving the public and creating a better conditions for those they interact with, but thats not an easy question to answer and one that requires a lot of knowledge relating to social sciences. We should be working to create a better culture and law enforcers through education not punishment.

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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Aikanaro » Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:23 am UTC

Zcorp wrote:
Aikanaro wrote:I want cops, who are about to take advantage of their position like this, to stop and think, "What's the worst thing that the public is likely to do to me if I abuse my power over this individual in this way?"
God no, Cops should be asking themselves if their behavior is correctly serving the public and creating a better conditions for those they interact with, but thats not an easy question to answer and one that requires a lot of knowledge relating to social sciences. We should be working to create a better culture and law enforcers through education not punishment.

Sounds great. Lemme know how you plan to put that into action in less than a decade. My results are less ideal than yours, but they're better than the status quo, and could probably be achieved a lot faster.
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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Princess Marzipan » Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:51 am UTC

Zcorp wrote:the only thing stated has been 'well its against the law, and officers job is to enforce the law so...'
False!

Ulc wrote:It's potentially dangerous to bystanders and/or himself. And might be indicative of a willingness to ignore the rules for biking on a street where doing so is more problematic.

It's the same reason that people are told not to run the red light in their cars, even if the other roads are entirely empty. It's a dangerous habit, even if each specific instance of it isn't dangerous.
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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby johnny_7713 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:00 am UTC

Aikanaro wrote:
Zcorp wrote:
Aikanaro wrote:I want cops, who are about to take advantage of their position like this, to stop and think, "What's the worst thing that the public is likely to do to me if I abuse my power over this individual in this way?"
God no, Cops should be asking themselves if their behavior is correctly serving the public and creating a better conditions for those they interact with, but thats not an easy question to answer and one that requires a lot of knowledge relating to social sciences. We should be working to create a better culture and law enforcers through education not punishment.

Sounds great. Lemme know how you plan to put that into action in less than a decade. My results are less ideal than yours, but they're better than the status quo, and could probably be achieved a lot faster.

The good thing is the two courses of action are not mutually exculsive.

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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Aikanaro » Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:45 pm UTC

johnny_7713 wrote:
Aikanaro wrote:
Zcorp wrote:
Aikanaro wrote:I want cops, who are about to take advantage of their position like this, to stop and think, "What's the worst thing that the public is likely to do to me if I abuse my power over this individual in this way?"
God no, Cops should be asking themselves if their behavior is correctly serving the public and creating a better conditions for those they interact with, but thats not an easy question to answer and one that requires a lot of knowledge relating to social sciences. We should be working to create a better culture and law enforcers through education not punishment.

Sounds great. Lemme know how you plan to put that into action in less than a decade. My results are less ideal than yours, but they're better than the status quo, and could probably be achieved a lot faster.

The good thing is the two courses of action are not mutually exculsive.

Yep! And I'm all for Zcorp going down his. If it seems to be working, folks should probably give up on my suggestion and go along with his. In the meantime.....
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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby jakovasaur » Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:10 pm UTC

Aikanaro wrote:
johnny_7713 wrote:
Aikanaro wrote:
Zcorp wrote:
Aikanaro wrote:I want cops, who are about to take advantage of their position like this, to stop and think, "What's the worst thing that the public is likely to do to me if I abuse my power over this individual in this way?"
God no, Cops should be asking themselves if their behavior is correctly serving the public and creating a better conditions for those they interact with, but thats not an easy question to answer and one that requires a lot of knowledge relating to social sciences. We should be working to create a better culture and law enforcers through education not punishment.

Sounds great. Lemme know how you plan to put that into action in less than a decade. My results are less ideal than yours, but they're better than the status quo, and could probably be achieved a lot faster.

The good thing is the two courses of action are not mutually exculsive.

Yep! And I'm all for Zcorp going down his. If it seems to be working, folks should probably give up on my suggestion and go along with his. In the meantime.....

Are you still talking about lynching cops? If so...what the fuck is wrong with you?

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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Aikanaro » Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:19 pm UTC

jakovasaur wrote:
Aikanaro wrote:
johnny_7713 wrote:
Aikanaro wrote:
Zcorp wrote:
Aikanaro wrote:I want cops, who are about to take advantage of their position like this, to stop and think, "What's the worst thing that the public is likely to do to me if I abuse my power over this individual in this way?"
God no, Cops should be asking themselves if their behavior is correctly serving the public and creating a better conditions for those they interact with, but thats not an easy question to answer and one that requires a lot of knowledge relating to social sciences. We should be working to create a better culture and law enforcers through education not punishment.

Sounds great. Lemme know how you plan to put that into action in less than a decade. My results are less ideal than yours, but they're better than the status quo, and could probably be achieved a lot faster.

The good thing is the two courses of action are not mutually exculsive.

Yep! And I'm all for Zcorp going down his. If it seems to be working, folks should probably give up on my suggestion and go along with his. In the meantime.....

Are you still talking about lynching cops? If so...what the fuck is wrong with you?

A whole lot of anger about helpless people getting beaten, tazed, pepper-sprayed, etc., as well as other horrible incidents including innocent people effectively being publicly EXECUTED, all without consequence, why do you ask?
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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby jakovasaur » Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:29 pm UTC

Aikanaro wrote:
jakovasaur wrote:Are you still talking about lynching cops? If so...what the fuck is wrong with you?

A whole lot of anger about helpless people getting beaten, tazed, pepper-sprayed, etc., as well as other horrible incidents including innocent people effectively being publicly EXECUTED, all without consequence, why do you ask?

You're seriously advocating the murder of police officers because they beat someone up? I'm considering reporting this to the FBI, because you sound like you are dangerous and emotionally unwell.

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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Aikanaro » Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:04 pm UTC

jakovasaur wrote:
Aikanaro wrote:
jakovasaur wrote:Are you still talking about lynching cops? If so...what the fuck is wrong with you?

A whole lot of anger about helpless people getting beaten, tazed, pepper-sprayed, etc., as well as other horrible incidents including innocent people effectively being publicly EXECUTED, all without consequence, why do you ask?

You're seriously advocating the murder of police officers because they beat someone up? I'm considering reporting this to the FBI, because you sound like you are dangerous and emotionally unwell.

In this case, kill them? No, thought I doubt I'd shed any tears if someone visited them and roughed them up a little bit. In cases where police officers have murdered people in public, tried to confiscate any evidence of their actions, then walked away with minimal consequences? I'm a bit more torn, and a bit less forgiving. That's the other thing about people seeking retribution: If you want to fix the system entirely, it has to be, well, systemic, and it's hard to judge how MUCH of a problem police corruption is, vs how much it's being covered up, etc.. If people take it into their own hands, it can work on a case-by-case basis. If police are honest, it's less likely random citizens will be pissed with them.

EDIT #2: Just to further clarify, basically, any action that a police officer has taken on an OBVIOUSLY FUCKING HARMLESS/INNOCENT PERSON, in front of a number of witnesses, then tried to CONCEAL THEIR ACTIONS through either intimidation and/or confiscation of evidence, I don't really have a problem with random people seeking to take the same action on said cop when no one is around.

TRIPLE EDIT: This is also assuming the cops manage to pull off a Karma Houdini. Otherwise, then they'd be dealing with LEGAL consequences for their actions, and the whole matter would be moot. As it is, when a cop pulls shit like this, what's the lesson they walk away with? "I can get away with this, so I don't need to worry about if I do it again."
Last edited by Aikanaro on Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:29 pm UTC, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Heisenberg » Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:05 pm UTC

Not to excuse this officer, but the fact that the Dayton police force is extremely understaffed is probably a contributing factor in incidents like this.

This officer should only use his taser in a situation where drawing his firearm would be appropriate. A 17-year old fleeing a bike citation does not meet those criteria.

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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby addams » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:36 am UTC

Zcorp wrote:
Princess Marzipan wrote:It's pretty simple from my end: person disobeys bike safety laws, police officer moves to cite or warn.

I have no problem with this when the officer understands the bike laws and is enforcing them correctly.

I'm not going to argue about jaywalking anymore because it's entirely irrelevant. You issued a challenge to make a good argument that the officer should have stopped Kersey based on his breaking of bike safety laws.
And no one has proposed a good argument, the only thing stated has been 'well its against the law, and officers job is to enforce the law so...'

This basically comes down to that you disagree with the officer's decision to engage in the first place - which is fine, but can we agree that it's actually a separate issue from how the engagement escalated?
Oh yeah, we started off there. Then you said "I don't think ANYONE is of the opinion that the officer should never have engaged in the first place," I and stated I have that opinion. This was not a circumstance where riding on the wrong side of the street is a danger and any officer with half decent judgement would be aware of that.


addams wrote:Start by administering both IQ and EQ tests to all Police as a condition of continued employment.

Not every town has the exact same problem. Every town must have a way of giving the SAT. It is a way to start. Most smart and educated people are also kind. Not all. But; Most.
Kindness. It is a kind of intelligence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_intelligence
That is not the best work that I have read on the subject. There is also the school of positive psychology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_psychology
What are we going to do about this little problem that we have? In Denmark bike accidents are a big deal. A bike wreck is a big deal here, too.
How many Americans live in Jails? Is it a big number?

It is not quite that easy, we don't have a good enough concept of the personality of an idea officer because really there isn't one. Although, there are some definitive aspects of intelligence not desired in officers, but the authority and power of the position often attracts those people. Some of ones that are adept at deception are going to slip through your vetting and the vetting process itself has to be constantly changing and creative. Good hiring practices are incredibly expensive.

The ideal officer is someone who can be the correct variable to enter a potentially dangerous or highly emotional situation and bring safety and some level of resolution. However, the variables in the situation are not static, the personalities and environment of the people besides the officer change each time. Because that is not something we are capable of educating efficiently right now (or possibility even at all) we give officers standard procedures and behaviors to perform. Those standards and behaviors essentially force them to be robotic in the way they handle the public. It forces any interaction with an officer and the public to be dangerous as both the officer and the citizen, if acting rationally within the system. These two parties are then often going to deceive or not cooperate with each other rather than cooperate as cooperating with the opposing party is dangerous for either party's job within the established system. This includes small interactions like an officer coming up to your window and asking you if you know why you were pulled over or if you knew how fast you were going. The best course of action for the citizen is to deny knowledge, stating your that you knew and giving that knowledge to the officer can only hurt you.

Also this is a bit off topic, so spoiler
Spoiler:
Positive psychology is a dangerous movement. The goal of positive psychology is to self-delude individuals into positive feelings. It essentially amounts to 'fake it till you make' happiness. Every other picture of mental health focuses on removing delusion and creating self-awareness. Cultivating a mental attitude that examines ones beliefs, feelings and behaviors and critically reflects on them to better understand, possibly change and work with themselves and their surroundings. Positive Psychology wants none of that, it is wants you to stick our head in the sand and just feel better.


Aikanaro wrote:I want cops, who are about to take advantage of their position like this, to stop and think, "What's the worst thing that the public is likely to do to me if I abuse my power over this individual in this way?"
God no, Cops should be asking themselves if their behavior is correctly serving the public and creating a better conditions for those they interact with, but thats not an easy question to answer and one that requires a lot of knowledge relating to social sciences. We should be working to create a better culture and law enforcers through education not punishment.

I am responding to your spoiler. One moment; Please.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_ ... m_the_book
It is one way of many to examine our lives. There are examples of people that have been deemed sane that we can look to as examples. There are qualities that we can encourage in ourselves. We have lists of bad people. Lists of good people with good qualities may be helpful.
Fake happiness? Encouragement to increase the happiness of others, when possible, is a good idea.
What if the Police had been trained to think: What will make others happy?

We ride our bikes on this part of the street, because, it makes most of us happy. We don't know it most of the time. We often do not understand why we are following rules. We do it because many of the rules make sense.

Like vaccines; If, most of us do it properly, then, there is room for the few that can not follow the rules for one reason or another reason.
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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Zcorp » Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:13 am UTC

Spoilering for off-topic again
Spoiler:
addams wrote:I am responding to your spoiler. One moment; Please.
nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character ... m_the_book
This is a tool utilized by positive psychology, but it has nothing to directly do with the positive psychology movement.

It is one way of many to examine our lives. There are examples of people that have been deemed sane that we can look to as examples. There are qualities that we can encourage in ourselves. We have lists of bad people. Lists of good people with good qualities may be helpful.
Fake happiness? Encouragement to increase the happiness of others, when possible, is a good idea.
What if the Police had been trained to think: What will make others happy?

The consistent problem is that reality often makes people unhappy. Creating a delusion of happiness does little to solve the problem of why someone was unhappy in the first place, and thus does nothing to actually improve the individual or society. At a clinical level this creates individuals who specifically avoid challenging themselves and advocates cutting themselves off from anything that makes them less happy. In I/O settings it creates cultures where 'bad news' is unacceptable. Employees feel pressured not to say things that are going wrong as they might be perceived as negative and people get fired for being negative and bring down the morale of the team, or "just not fitting in."

When the goal is the make someone happy; not to address the thoughts or behaviors that are making them unhappy or paying attention to the cause of the feeling of unhappiness you are treating a symptom and not a cause. Which, granted, is much easier than treating a cause, but it is still unhealthy.

If I break your finger but give you morphine for the pain I'm not doing much unless I continually give you morphine. At which your finger is likely to heal to some degree but except in some rare cases won't be as functional as it was before the break. However, if you treat the break rather than the pain the hand is better than it would be if you just pumped the patient full of morphine. Additionally, if you help the person achieve what they were trying to do while breaking their hand in a safer and more efficient way - through education or giving them a tool - you are also likely to decrease future breaks. While you can keep pumping them full of morphine each time they break their finger and it makes them happier it doesn't do much to address the cause and it creates a weaker hand.

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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Arrian » Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:56 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:Not to excuse this officer, but the fact that the Dayton police force is extremely understaffed is probably a contributing factor in incidents like this.


I don't see anything in there indicating that they're understaffed, in fact it sounds like they're staffed appropriately: "Redden has kept the department’s response times well within national guidelines..." "Since Biehl came on the force in 2008, the ratio of residents per officer was about 375 to 1. Now it stands at about 400 to 1 (That's a bit more than a 6% change.) From 2008 to 2010 violent crime was down 4.5 percent and all crime was down 8.7 percent."

Sounds like they're doing fine, I'm not seeing anything in there about requiring officers to work overtime in order to actually get full coverage and crime is falling. Also, these are sworn officers, police departments have a tendency to use sworn officers for a lot of things that have nothing to do with actual police work, like IT support. It sounds to me like they're just having to deal with not being overstaffed, which is a whole lot different than being understaffed.

And anyway, they managed to get more than 20 officers on site for a mentally challenged kid who pissed off a cop with his speech impediment. That doesn't exactly say "understaffed" to me.

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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Tiberius » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:01 pm UTC

Manial wrote:
Tiberius wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:However, to all the people saying that this is symptomatic of a systematic problem with the police force, I'd advise you to either be aware of selection bias, or show how common and occurrence this really is.

Well cops are twice as likely to rape someone and five times as likely to murder someone, so ya I'd say it's a systemic problem. One of the biggest problems is that cops are naturally more likely to be sociopaths.
Do you have a source for those? Not that I doubt you, but I'd love to read them.

Sure,
http://www.copblock.org/1595/making-the ... ntability/
That's for the police crime stats. Like what was said earlier the job of a cop is just naturally attractive to sociopaths. Couple this with the fact that most cops are college dropouts or barely have a high school diploma and cops are just unstable bullies that never grew up.

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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Ulc » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:52 pm UTC

Tiberius wrote:
Manial wrote:
Tiberius wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:However, to all the people saying that this is symptomatic of a systematic problem with the police force, I'd advise you to either be aware of selection bias, or show how common and occurrence this really is.

Well cops are twice as likely to rape someone and five times as likely to murder someone, so ya I'd say it's a systemic problem. One of the biggest problems is that cops are naturally more likely to be sociopaths.
Do you have a source for those? Not that I doubt you, but I'd love to read them.

Sure,
http://www.copblock.org/1595/making-the ... ntability/
That's for the police crime stats. Like what was said earlier the job of a cop is just naturally attractive to sociopaths. Couple this with the fact that most cops are college dropouts or barely have a high school diploma and cops are just unstable bullies that never grew up.


Or about a million other possible explanations, such as a job where you are routinely subjected to violence, and routinely need to utilise violence to deal with people, routinely being threatened not only on their life, but also their families lives, routinely being in situations where their life is in very real danger. All that can desensitize even the gentlest person into not wincing if they employ violence.

Pinpointing the why of things like this is not exactly easy - but it's awfully easy to yell "they're all sociopaths" and not take any responsibility for the fact that we do need them, and that they do a rather unpleasant job with containing the rest of society from the habitual urge to go at your neighbour with an axe, and that we might in fact expose those officers to some fairly traumatising events.
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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:55 pm UTC

Ulc wrote:
Or about a million other possible explanations, such as a job where you are routinely subjected to violence, and routinely need to utilise violence to deal with people, routinely being threatened not only on their life, but also their families lives, routinely being in situations where their life is in very real danger. All that can desensitize even the gentlest person into not wincing if they employ violence.

Pinpointing the why of things like this is not exactly easy - but it's awfully easy to yell "they're all sociopaths" and not take any responsibility for the fact that we do need them, and that they do a rather unpleasant job with containing the rest of society from the habitual urge to go at your neighbour with an axe, and that we might in fact expose those officers to some fairly traumatising events.


I agree that we shouldn't assume the cause of this correlation, but the question was whether or not there was a systematic problem with the police force, and whether the police force hires sociopaths or the job encourages sociopathy, there's a problem.
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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Ulc » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:09 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:I agree that we shouldn't assume the cause of this correlation, but the question was whether or not there was a systematic problem with the police force, and whether the police force hires sociopaths or the job encourages sociopathy, there's a problem.


Sure, there is a problem. I just don't think that the solution is to yell "you're all horrible people!" at police officers before we lynch them in front of the town hall. Which a awful lot of posters here seem to find to be the ideal solution.

The solution is rather to give them a better education than "here's how you hold your gun, now go out a drive the car". Rather teach them conflict management, how to deal with people on drugs, or people with special needs, teach them how to talk a situation down and when it is appropriate to escalate. Would also help if we got rid of the macho culture that are currently present, and got them all to understand that it's okay to say "I need to talk with a professional" rather than to laugh at the unfortunate co-worker "Did you hear, Lars had to talk with a shrimp, bwaha, what a sissy.. HEY LARS, ARE YOU A SISSY??!"

That's the solution. Not to simply state that they are all sociopaths that are beyond help and we might as well lynch them.
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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Belial » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:12 pm UTC

Yeah, I think hiring sociopaths is definitely part of it. Positions of power and authority that allow opportunities for abuse and brutality will always attract people who are really interested in that. It's one of those self-evident things that I'm always flabbergasted that anyone can argue with. Yes, of course the position where you get a gun and the leeway to push people around will attract the people (whom we all acknowledge to exist) who get off on pushing people around. Duh.

But I think the problem extends beyond those people who join as sociopaths (some of whom, admittedly, are weeded out by the psych eval) and encompasses more systemic problems like the bits that ulc is describing (though, ulc, I disagree strongly with your conclusion that we should just deal with it because we need them) and also the general lack of accountability that is perpetuated by police culture. The blue wall of silence and suchlike. Anything that makes you feel less accountable to your fellow human beings is almost always going to make you act like more of an asshole, and I don't think I'm saying anything there that's new to anyone who had to read heart of darkness in 9th grade.

Basically, the problem is multifaceted and systemic, and is definitely more complicated than "the job attracts bullies", though that's definitely part of it.
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Re: Police taze and beat underaged mentally handicapped boy.

Postby Ulc » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:26 pm UTC

Belial wrote:(though, ulc, I disagree strongly with your conclusion that we should just deal with it because we need them)


That wasn't exactly what I meant, it was more along the lines of "we need them, so we need to deal with the problem of them being more violent, in a way where we get the police force to become less violent", and we owe it to them to help them with their problems, when they perform a job we need performed.
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