In other news... (humorous news items)

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:14 pm UTC

The reverse happens too, when a cleaning lady threw away an art exhibit.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby elasto » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:35 pm UTC

The core issue is I don't think there's any clean way to define 'art' at all. Art is basically anything that is engineered to make people think and feel, and the better the art, the more people it will cause to think and feel, and the more deeply they will do so. But obviously that's a totally subjective definition. And once you get self-referential all bets are off, and it's frequently impossible to distinguish concept art from parody.

Not even the artist revealing it was parody gets you off the hook, because if it made people think and feel regardless, then it was good art whether or not the artist really intended it to be...

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Quercus » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:47 pm UTC

elasto wrote:The core issue is I don't think there's any clean way to define 'art' at all. Art is basically anything that is engineered to make people think and feel, and the better the art, the more people it will cause to think and feel, and the more deeply they will do so. But obviously that's a totally subjective definition. And once you get self-referential all bets are off, and it's frequently impossible to distinguish concept art from parody.

Not even the artist revealing it was parody gets you off the hook, because if it made people think and feel regardless, then it was good art whether or not the artist really intended it to be...


That's honestly half the reason why I like conceptual art. I spend most of my time with the categorising function of my brain fully engaged, and such art is a really effective way of short-circuiting that and giving that mode of thinking a much needed rest.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Sableagle » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:56 pm UTC

elasto wrote:Art is basically anything that is engineered to make people think and feel, and the better the art, the more people it will cause to think and feel, and the more deeply they will do so.
Scratching "pedo" into someone's front door and throwing rocks at their windows would fit that description. It may need refining.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby arbiteroftruth » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:58 pm UTC

ijuin wrote:What I would like to know is whether the shredder was remotely controlled, or whether it had some means of sensing that the picture was being sold. If it is the latter, then I would like to know how such a feat was accomplished.


And if the former, then this sounds like felony destruction of property.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:10 pm UTC

The greatest feature of modern art is also its greatest problem.

Modern art requires little personal investment in terms of years of training in color theory or pigment preparation or ceramics. This means there is no significant barrier to becoming an artist, and anyone with great ideas can create. At the same time, without a barrier, there is virtually no quality control, and every hackneyed idea manages to get through.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Zohar » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:35 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The greatest feature of modern art is also its greatest problem.

Modern art requires little personal investment in terms of years of training in color theory or pigment preparation or ceramics. This means there is no significant barrier to becoming an artist, and anyone with great ideas can create. At the same time, without a barrier, there is virtually no quality control, and every hackneyed idea manages to get through.


How is this something new to modern art? What would have stopped me from making lumps of clay or terrible paint blotches 200 years ago? Classical art was only inaccessible in a financial and classist sense , but still had its fair share of terribly unsuccessful and untalented artists, just as much as modern art does. Nothing about The Artist Is Present takes much skill in the classical art sense, but it requires a huge amount of creativity, resilience, inventiveness, and patience, to create a performance that, by most accounts, was very moving and memorable, in the way that a lot of classical art isn't (and in a way that a lot of modern art isn't, either).
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby elasto » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:43 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:Scratching "pedo" into someone's front door and throwing rocks at their windows would fit that description. It may need refining.

Not as much as you might think. If it's done consensually then it could be great art, causing people to think more deeply about how society should be acting towards those it hates. If it's done without consent then obviously it's an act of violence - one that is liable to cause the artist themselves to have to spend a lot of time thinking and feeling the inside of a jail cell.

So, no, while art is often thought of purely as provoking positive emotions like appreciation of beauty, there's definitely some value in exploring negative emotions like disgust or even hate, so long as it's done in a controlled environment.

CorruptUser wrote:The greatest feature of modern art is also its greatest problem.

Modern art requires little personal investment in terms of years of training in color theory or pigment preparation or ceramics. This means there is no significant barrier to becoming an artist, and anyone with great ideas can create. At the same time, without a barrier, there is virtually no quality control, and every hackneyed idea manages to get through.

Arguably the same is true of the internet today. It now takes little personal investment to throw up a blog with a random opinion, and anyone with great ideas can seed them to the masses. On the other hand there is no quality control and every conspiracy theory from flat earth to pizza pedo rings can gain a following...

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Mutex » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:50 pm UTC

elasto wrote:The core issue is I don't think there's any clean way to define 'art' at all. Art is basically anything that is engineered to make people think and feel, and the better the art, the more people it will cause to think and feel, and the more deeply they will do so. But obviously that's a totally subjective definition.

The best definition I could think of is "something created for its aesthetic qualities", which is incredibly broad and would include wallpaper. But maybe that's because art is a huge, broad thing and you know, an artist *did* design that wallpaper pattern. It would also partially include say, a pen designed to look like a banana, in that it's part tool and part art. I put the emphasis on the creator's intention / purpose because I don't think a beautiful sunset is "art", I think someone needs to have created it.

The biggest problem with this definition I can see is it wouldn't include performance art, or maybe it's so vague it would, I'm not sure.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:02 pm UTC

Before the impressionist movement, you simply could not find anyone who would take a couple of terrible paint blotches seriously.


The history of art is actually a long story, mostly of elitism.

Art has always been, primarily, a biological honest signaling process for mating. Ok, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but art was always a sign of wealth, prestige, status, and so forth. Only the rich could afford great works of art, and while artists always liked to have fun with their works and insert symbolism where they could, that wasn't what they received their patronage for. The most famous patrons of the arts and sciences, the Medici banking family, mostly did so as a form of status seeking. Interestingly, they sponsored Galileo, and it was only after one of the unpopular Medici popes died suddenly that Galileo found himself in trouble...

Eventually, society progressed enough that an entire class of artists could be sustained. While the upper classes could always pay for the most elaborate of artworks, the new middle classes could now afford the rare portrait, still life or landscape; as such, these were considered in their times to be the "lowest" form of art.

What created the biggest crisis in the art world was the inventions of the relatively advanced production/copying methods, and especially the photograph. Suddenly, art was no longer restricted to the upper classes and on rare occasion the middle class. Even the poorest working class schlub could get his filthy grubby hands all over some art, and it could never be restricted through price. This crisis would find a solution beginning with Impressionism and later Dada, all the way into modern art. Suddenly, art now required an education to understand and appreciate, something the poor simply had neither the time nor the money to acquire. Art was once again safe.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:11 pm UTC

I used to work in a building with a resident artist/studio/outreach-of-daytime-and-evening-courses.

Obviously if you went there wanting to know how to wield your brush (or pallette knife) to produce somewhat realistic or even impressionistic images, that was possible. Also practical pottery, fabricwork, metalcrafting and a variety of other skills, it seemed. From what I saw of their daily and nightly activities.

Every now and then, they'd arrange an 'exhibition' around the building lobby and public spaces, and there portraits (or jugs, quilts, moulded wire-mesh dioramas, etc) of greater or lesser recognisability could be seen. And the creative skill was often obvious even(/especially?) as the intention became more abstract and less reality-based. Beyond my capabilities to reproduce.

But some things seemed so abstract. If I had thought to cover the field of a canvas with various geometric divisions of area given contrasting hues (or even shades - of grey), I could surely have done something of a similar entropy of data, if not of complete exactitude. And yet the price-tag attached? I should be so lucky. Obviously you're buying into the artist (from genuine personal admiration or through naked speculation) and had my name be undersigned it wouldn't have been anything like £2.5k. Not without some similarly developing portfolio at my back, at least, proving that I could do something of a recognisable nose roughly in the right place to match the things that looked quite like ears. Even if I'd then proceeded to transition via the school of Picasso and thence onto Mondrian or Klint.


When it comes to the (semi-?)autodestructive art from Banksy, I can believe that a damaged Banksy retains some value, and a Banksy that has the damage invoked by Banksy could even appreciate in the eyes of enough of the speculators to make even a skeptical 'burned' buyer appreciate that they've not necessarily lost value.

In the first Discworld Convention after Terry Pratchett died, the attendees observed an unfinished manuscipt (tantalisingly revealed and part-read to those assembled) quite unexpectedly being put through a shredder as an act of finality apparently requested by The Man In The Hat. The heartbreak in the room redoubled when it dawned on everyone that there wasn't even going to be any obvious way to get a hand on even some of the thin paper shreds (or diamond-cut fragments, for thoroughness?). Not just a lost, novel but utterly spirited away. People there would have happily bid for a small nest of unreconstructable paper in the subsequent charity auction.

And this is echoed with the story of the his hard-drive, destined at that time to be (securely) a key exhibit for an indeterminate time.

Though I at the time suspected that whatever had actually happened to the various drives upon which the destroyable data reside (there are better ways to utterly prevent recovery than actual physical damage, which doesn't even guarantee irrevocable loss) that one was a 'stunt drive', with no actual data but acting as a public surrogate/whipping-boy. The Ethan Hunt/Wrong-Trousered-Wallace who dangled down from the ceiling and extracted the remains would have nothing more than a dummy drive upon carefully recording the residual magnetic from the fragmented/warped platter debris.

Still, it was a symbol of the man's art. And it would have had a pride of place in the midst of my cabinet of memorabilia, had I ever had opportunity to get my sticky hands upon it. Maybe more fool me, but I wouldn't be alone and likely wouldn't be the last fool standing if I had decided to offload it.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby elasto » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:03 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Before the impressionist movement, you simply could not find anyone who would take a couple of terrible paint blotches seriously.

The history of art is actually a long story, mostly of elitism.

Art has always been, primarily, a biological honest signaling process for mating. Ok, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but art was always a sign of wealth, prestige, status, and so forth. Only the rich could afford great works of art, and while artists always liked to have fun with their works and insert symbolism where they could, that wasn't what they received their patronage for. The most famous patrons of the arts and sciences, the Medici banking family, mostly did so as a form of status seeking. Interestingly, they sponsored Galileo, and it was only after one of the unpopular Medici popes died suddenly that Galileo found himself in trouble...

Eventually, society progressed enough that an entire class of artists could be sustained. While the upper classes could always pay for the most elaborate of artworks, the new middle classes could now afford the rare portrait, still life or landscape; as such, these were considered in their times to be the "lowest" form of art.

What created the biggest crisis in the art world was the inventions of the relatively advanced production/copying methods, and especially the photograph. Suddenly, art was no longer restricted to the upper classes and on rare occasion the middle class. Even the poorest working class schlub could get his filthy grubby hands all over some art, and it could never be restricted through price. This crisis would find a solution beginning with Impressionism and later Dada, all the way into modern art. Suddenly, art now required an education to understand and appreciate, something the poor simply had neither the time nor the money to acquire. Art was once again safe.

While I agree with almost all of that, Banksy would be an example of an artist who bucks that trend, making art aimed at the masses to appreciate, that is made deliberately difficult for the elites to control - either because it's done in a public space such as his graffiti works, or because it is strictly time limited.

Sure, you could be cynical about that and say it's just his particular form of attention seeking, but attention seeking is basically essential to the medium. Good art that noone gets to see is of little value at the end of the day - just as if I write the most insightful blog post ever but noone reads it, that is of little value either.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Coyne » Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:25 am UTC

I am having sort of a Deja Vu moment. I have what seems to be a recollection that this stunt was discussed when the picture was first made. But I can't prove it, I don't know think even Megamind knows enough Google-fu to overcome the current media explosion and prove it.

They are saying that it is probably worth twice as much now. So much for a statement against consumerism.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby idonno » Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:50 am UTC

Coyne wrote:I am having sort of a Deja Vu moment. I have what seems to be a recollection that this stunt was discussed when the picture was first made. But I can't prove it, I don't know think even Megamind knows enough Google-fu to overcome the current media explosion and prove it.

They are saying that it is probably worth twice as much now. So much for a statement against consumerism.


Can't ypu just set the search dates to before a media explosion in order to overcome it?

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:50 am UTC

Reminds me of Andy Warhol. His entire schtick was that the art world was full of pompous and incompetent assholes and the rich were gullible idiots, and he got paid a fortune to insult the rich with crafts that were as anti art as he could make.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Thesh » Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:54 am UTC

idonno wrote:
Coyne wrote:I am having sort of a Deja Vu moment. I have what seems to be a recollection that this stunt was discussed when the picture was first made. But I can't prove it, I don't know think even Megamind knows enough Google-fu to overcome the current media explosion and prove it.

They are saying that it is probably worth twice as much now. So much for a statement against consumerism.


Can't ypu just set the search dates to before a media explosion in order to overcome it?

Try it. If the date says 2010, then it's a page that was published in 2010 that has the balloon girl story as a related article. You'll have to wait until this is old news before you can search for old articles.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Yablo » Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:10 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Reminds me of Andy Warhol. His entire schtick was that the art world was full of pompous and incompetent assholes and the rich were gullible idiots, and he got paid a fortune to insult the rich with crafts that were as anti art as he could make.

Before he was Andy Warhol, he was still a regular artist. I have a cookbook he illustrated in the early '60s.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby idonno » Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:15 am UTC

Thesh wrote:Try it. If the date says 2010, then it's a page that was published in 2010 that has the balloon girl story as a related article. You'll have to wait until this is old news before you can search for old articles.


Huh. I thought that restricted pages based on when Google's webcrawler encountered the data not just based on publish dates on the page. I haven't found anything to explain Coyne's Deja Vu but if you use "allintitle:" you can cut out a lot of the pages that just have links and as a proof of concept here is a page with a headline containing banksy and shredder about some TMNT posters.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby ucim » Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:17 am UTC

Yablo wrote:Before he was Andy Warhol, he was still a regular artist. I have a cookbook he illustrated in the early '60s.
And.... so? Before that he was an infant and probably drooled on the table. I don't get what you are saying.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Yablo » Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:26 am UTC

ucim wrote:And.... so? Before that he was an infant and probably drooled on the table. I don't get what you are saying.

Jose

The point was that, while he made his name and fortune by insulting the rich with crafts that were as anti-art as he could make, he made ends meet (at first) like any other artist. I take nothing at all away from Andy Warhol, and I actually really like his attitude. I was merely pointing out that he did the mainstream thing as well as anyone else, but it might be completely missed because of what he became known for.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:37 am UTC

And all your famous Hollywood A listers did commercials or bit parts in low budget horror movies before they got their big break.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby ucim » Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:40 am UTC

Yablo wrote:I was merely pointing out that he did the mainstream thing as well as anyone else...
I think that's true about pretty much everyone. You have to get known to be competent before you can be respected for being avant-garde.
Yablo wrote:I actually really like his attitude
What about his attitude do you like, and why? (neutral question)

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Thesh » Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:52 am UTC

Yablo wrote:The point was that, while he made his name and fortune by insulting the rich with crafts that were as anti-art as he could make, he made ends meet (at first) like any other artist. I take nothing at all away from Andy Warhol, and I actually really like his attitude. I was merely pointing out that he did the mainstream thing as well as anyone else, but it might be completely missed because of what he became known for.


Andy Warhol was famous for making mass-produced art. His whole thing was that he appealed to the mainstream and made art that could easily be done on an assembly line.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Yablo » Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:52 pm UTC

ucim wrote:What about his attitude do you like, and why? (neutral question)

Jose

I hadn't thought too much about it, but now that I do, I think it might be his cynicism and his testing of the pop culture consumer to see the reactions he could produce. I don't get the impression he felt his artwork was nearly as amazing as people seemed to, but that he was very interested (and probably amused) to see how far he could push the boundaries before even the most superficial and pretentious people couldn't call what he was doing 'art' anymore.

Thesh wrote:Andy Warhol was famous for making mass-produced art. His whole thing was that he appealed to the mainstream and made art that could easily be done on an assembly line.

This is true, but I think there was more to it than that. I mean, he did use silk-screening because it gave everything a mass-produced feel, but his entire vision strikes me as satirical.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby ucim » Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:56 pm UTC

Yablo wrote:I think it might be his cynicism and his testing of the pop culture consumer to see the reactions he could produce.
I get that, but isn't it just as telling about popular culture that it works? Is he the message, or the messenger?

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Quercus » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:09 pm UTC

elasto wrote:but attention seeking is basically essential to the medium. Good art that noone gets to see is of little value at the end of the day


I disagree with this quite strongly. Unpublished and unpublicised art can nevertheless have a profound impact on the artist themselves. I have experienced this firsthand. This is like saying that therapy is of little value because no-one other than the therapist and the client gets to hear about it.

I'd contend that at lot of this discussion about the nature and purpose of art misses what is, to me, a vital component - the value of art to the artist as an expressive and explorative process, rather than the value to the consumer of art as a finished product.

The need to explore questions, externalise emotions or wrestle with problems are just as much drivers for the creation of art as the desire to say something to the world, influence people, gain recognition or make money.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby sardia » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:38 pm UTC

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/09/tech ... raise.html
Amazon's pay raise to 15$ isn't actually a raise because Amazon is canceling bonuses and other benefits, which means some workers end up with less income overall.

What I don't get is how Amazon thinks this wouldn't get out? Maybe nobody cares?

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Yablo » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:11 am UTC

ucim wrote:I get that, but isn't it just as telling about popular culture that it works? Is he the message, or the messenger?

Jose

A little of both, I think. In a way, it's like his physical artwork was a decoy for his true art of satirizing and insulting the elitist art snobs.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:42 am UTC

I preferred Warhol's movie "Ass", just a film of a grown man's ass farting. It won 8 Oscars the year it came out, including best screenplay.

Spoiler:
Andy Warhol DID make a movie that was just a man's ass, "Taylor Meads Ass", making the movie in Idiocracy an accidental double joke.




If you bought anything from Warhol, you didnt understand it in the first place.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Zohar » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:16 pm UTC

sardia wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/09/technology/amazon-workers-pay-raise.html
Amazon's pay raise to 15$ isn't actually a raise because Amazon is canceling bonuses and other benefits, which means some workers end up with less income overall.

What I don't get is how Amazon thinks this wouldn't get out? Maybe nobody cares?

They're counting on more people sharing their own marketing related to that than the opposition, probably.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:27 pm UTC

Probably will work. And if not, the worst that'll happen is that folks will think Amazon is some kind of evil corporate overlord. Given the whole "no pee breaks", that's not really a change. So no downside to them.

But yeah, minimum wage increases don't really mean a lot if you've traded off equal or larger gains in other areas. Not sure if this qualifies as humorous, but eh.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby idonno » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:33 pm UTC

At least replacing the "4 percent bonus for attendance" with a flat wage increase is a very good change in my opinion. An attendance bonus works out to the same thing as a penalty for missing which means if you get sick and miss days of work, you get penalized with less pay on top of that. It is just a shitty way to structure compensation.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Dauric » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:01 pm UTC

idonno wrote:At least replacing the "4 percent bonus for attendance" with a flat wage increase is a very good change in my opinion. An attendance bonus works out to the same thing as a penalty for missing which means if you get sick and miss days of work, you get penalized with less pay on top of that. It is just a shitty way to structure compensation.


1099 contract workers don't get paid days off at all, despite (potentially) working full time for a single employer. If you've ever seen the job postings "6 months contract with a potential for conversion" that's one of them. It's not uncommon for "potential to conversion" to get interminably delayed, so don't hold your breath on paid time off, retirement benefits, or health insurance. Some jobs don't even bother with the "potential for conversion", they just leave you as a 1099 employee as long as you're in that job.

Been stuck dealing with 1099 positions i I.T. support for six years now. Not bitter about it at all.. do you smell lemons and vinegar?
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:13 pm UTC

idonno wrote:At least replacing the "4 percent bonus for attendance" with a flat wage increase is a very good change in my opinion. An attendance bonus works out to the same thing as a penalty for missing which means if you get sick and miss days of work, you get penalized with less pay on top of that. It is just a shitty way to structure compensation.


I think the key is that it's not a flat wage increase for everyone. The lowest paid workers will make more, but some workers are only seeing the loss, with no gain, and are understandably unhappy about it.

If it were a straight conversion of a bonus into base pay, it'd be more universally advantageous.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby idonno » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:47 pm UTC

In an “all hands” meeting at the start of her shift on Thursday — her first day at work after the pay raise was announced — she learned Amazon was raising her base pay by $1 an hour.

But it was also ending monthly attendance and productivity bonuses, known as the Variable Compensation Plan, or V.C.P. And she would no longer be granted valuable Amazon shares. The trade-off meant she’d be losing money, she said.

I'm pretty sure that they are increasing everyone's base pay by some amount. If you are expecting to get 8% in bonus pay (4% attendance and 4% for production targets) and you make >=$15, your wage increase has to be >= $1.20 or you are losing money.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:17 pm UTC

Oh, they're not even increasing everyone to $15. The aforementioned 1099 workers? Not included. They receive no wage increase at all, even if below the $15 bar.

In the same announcement, mind you, Amazon said it was going to lobby the government to increase the minimum wage overall. End of the day, Amazon's is just shuffling around employee costs, and using this as a blatant anti-competitive move. Unemployment rates are low, and Amazon needs more human grist for the mill.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Dauric » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:49 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Oh, they're not even increasing everyone to $15. The aforementioned 1099 workers? Not included. They receive no wage increase at all, even if below the $15 bar.


The kick in the naughty-bits is that 1099 workers are treated as one-person companies. Your pay as a 1099 is how much you pay yourself from the amount the hiring company pays your personal company, your benefits like paid time off and medical insurance are provided by your company to you, ie: from yourself to yourself.

Of course the power balance here is entirely one-sided in favor of the company hiring the one-person contracting company. They're not "hiring an employee", they're "hiring a contracting company" and it's on that "contracting company" to see to the wages and benefits of their employees.

To make it even more obscure there's typically a staffing agency in that chain of people as well. So Company A hires a Staffing Agency B, to hire a (completely mythical) one-man-contracting company C, that in turn has as it's employee the actual human being D at the end of all that convoluted mess.

So Amazon gets to say "We're increasing the wages for all our employees", but the 1099's don't count because they're not, technically, Amazon's employees, they are all employees of their own personal companies (at least according to the relevant tax laws).
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby idonno » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:21 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Oh, they're not even increasing everyone to $15. The aforementioned 1099 workers? Not included. They receive no wage increase at all, even if below the $15 bar.

I don't think their 1099 workers get the bonuses either (I'm 100% certain they didn't get stock). That would just be no change for them.

Also, as a sidenote, I know several people who work/worked at an amazon warehouse and it is my understanding from conversations that Amazon actually do a pretty good job of either firing 1099 workers or moving them to direct hires.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:48 pm UTC

I thought the drivers were all 1099 employees?

Never worked for Amazon, but yeah, 1099 folks in general end up with some awkwardness. Gotta sort out your own healthcare, taxation deductions change, generally a lack of bennies. It's not so bad if the pay is high enough to compensate, but as you say, if it's a stack with a temp agency in there, it can be rough.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby elasto » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:04 pm UTC

Quercus wrote:
but attention seeking is basically essential to the medium. Good art that noone gets to see is of little value at the end of the day
I disagree with this quite strongly. Unpublished and unpublicised art can nevertheless have a profound impact on the artist themselves.

I think you are taking what I said the wrong way. All I meant was that the more that good art is seen the more overall good it does. I guess for sake of clarity I should have written "attention seeking is basically essential to the medium. Good art that noone gets to see is of little value to society..."

Obviously each individual will take away what he takes away no matter whether he's one of ten to see it or one of a billion, but surely you agree that, all things being equal, a good artist whose work is seen widely is of exponentially more public good than one whose work is never seen.

This is like saying that therapy is of little value because no-one other than the therapist and the client gets to hear about it.

Well, to play devil's advocate, therapy that helps a person become better with his family and wider society is more beneficial than therapy that only benefits the client.

That's not to say that therapy that only improves the quality of life of a single client has no value, just that therapy that indirectly spills out to improve the quality of life of a wide circle has so much more.

I'd contend that at lot of this discussion about the nature and purpose of art misses what is, to me, a vital component - the value of art to the artist as an expressive and explorative process, rather than the value to the consumer of art as a finished product.

The need to explore questions, externalise emotions or wrestle with problems are just as much drivers for the creation of art as the desire to say something to the world, influence people, gain recognition or make money.

As an artist myself, how could I disagree? But I still maintain if I create art that I and others enjoy it is of more value than when I create it for my enjoyment alone. But, yes, of course, I'd still create even if I were the last human being alive...


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