In other news... (humorous news items)

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elasto
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby elasto » Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:03 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:FM radio btw here on my phone. Uses less battery and doesn't use any data...

In any case, it's 16gb for the base model $650 iPhone... and $750 for 64gb. You're paying a significant price to get comfortable amounts of storage. Camera alone will eat up a ton.

Again, you seem to be hung up focussing on the iPhone. There are other smartphones out there both cheaper and with microSD slots. The future is not as bleak as you seem to fear.

Personally I think the future of local external storage is wireless, just as it will be for charging.

We're at an intermediate design stage, and having to insert one thing into another to have them communicate is going to be regarded as quite quaint by our kids. At that point everyone will be satisfied. SD cards are so last century tech.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Dauric » Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:20 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:FM radio btw here on my phone. Uses less battery and doesn't use any data...

In any case, it's 16gb for the base model $650 iPhone... and $750 for 64gb. You're paying a significant price to get comfortable amounts of storage. Camera alone will eat up a ton.

Again, you seem to be hung up focussing on the iPhone. There are other smartphones out there both cheaper and with microSD slots. The future is not as bleak as you seem to fear.

Personally I think the future of local external storage is wireless, just as it will be for charging.

We're at an intermediate design stage, and having to insert one thing into another to have them communicate is going to be regarded as quite quaint by our kids. At that point everyone will be satisfied. SD cards are so last century tech.


Extra Credits: Spectrum Crunch

The problem with wireless is there's a physical limit on the amoubt of spectrum we can send data through. This is why nobody offers "unlimited data" plans any more, it was a great marketing gimmick back in the day, but it simply cannot be done physically, especially with more devices trying to use the spectrum for more different kinds of tasks. Various methods of data compression help, but they don't change the fact that the Electromagnetic Spectrum is a limited territory.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:26 pm UTC

The 15mm x 11mm x 1mm microsd card is quite convenient to use. It's literally smaller than my fingernail.

All phones can use NFS or CIFS and wirelessly connect to a NAS today. True... It takes a $5 app to do it but I already do that to wirelessly connect with my home NAS to reliably back up data. Frankly, that isn't very futuristic. Maybe in the future the various phone OSes will support that without a third party app. iPhone, Android,Windows... They all have apps that support the NAS remote file access protocols.

But having secondary microsd card storage is a major differentiating point between a lot of phones.

Anyway, NAS storage is a totally different beast than secondary storage. I take RAW camera shots which eats up a lot of storage... Or extended use of video... Or storing a library of songs offline. You don't have access to network storage if you're jogging around the neighborhood or at the gym. Large banks of secondary storage is useful for that.

Anyway, I use my phone to transfer large video files between my house and a friends house while we work on video editing projects. We have a 2 Tb external for the larger stuff but sometimes 30gb or so will do, and it's more convenient to just use my phone for that.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby jewish_scientist » Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:07 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
I would argue that the phone companies created, or at least support, this mentality because it guarantees them more business.

Is that really different from, say, chair companies supporting the use of chairs?

Chair Company #1: Buy our chairs; when our new chairs becomes significantly better than what you bought, then buy a new chair from us.
Chair Company #2: Buy our chairs; when we make a new chair, then buy that chair.

Chair Company #1's has to constantly improve their products constantly in order to get your future business; Chair Company #2 can remake the same products, with a token amount of improvement, and it will get your business. Modern technology companies, among others, use a business model similar to Chair Company #2's.
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Tyndmyr wrote:If it's covered by warranty when it craps out, you're set regardless.

You only really care after the warranty ends, and it needs a fix. In which case...voiding the warranty is irrelevant.


Gazelles Guide Water Damage: The Truth about Rice, the Galaxy and Everything wrote:We were impressed by the resiliency of the Galaxy smartphones. The removable battery probably contributed to the improved drying and higher survival rate. It is also possible that the relatively open design of the phone’s housing allowed water to escape and/or evaporate more readily.

The iPhones were a disappointment in water. The lack of a removable battery is a minor annoyance under most circumstances, but in this case it proved to be the primary point of failure for two of the iPhone 4s. The compact nature of the iPhone may also have inhibited draining...

If you absolutely must save your phone or data, your best bet is probably to open the phone up as soon as possible and leave it in front of a fan. Most phones can be opened with a Philips screwdriver, but the iPhone requires a specialized “pentalobe” screwdriver, which can be purchased on eBay or from iFixit.com. Don’t worry about voiding your warranty by opening the device– it ended the moment water entered your phone and tripped the water damage indicator.


KnightExemplar wrote:The worst part about that "Battery Change" procedure is that Apple knows that those batteries go bad, so they still design a procedure to replace them. But why do they make it harder on purpose? Its an explicit goal on their behalf to screw their customer.

Besides, I know people with iPhones who have screwed up the battery replacement procedure and have ended up bricking their phones. Make a mistake and poof, there goes your $650 phone. I guess time to buy a new one? Seriously, the iPhone 6 battery is behind the ribbon cables that connect the touchscreen / screen to the mainboard. Ribbon Cables aren't exactly strong ya know, screw up that procedure, and your screen is dead. I'm sure I can follow the procedure and probably fix a few iPhone batteries myself, but I don't know if the typical person has that kind of confidence.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

elasto wrote:But I think that's going to get resolved in the next half-decade or so too: Soon everyone will be streaming video to be stored either in the cloud or via the cloud onto your home pc (for those too paranoid to store such things only in the cloud)...

But in 5-10 years when native space on a smartphone starts at, I dunno, 256GB (rising perhaps to 1TB), and when download speeds are 10x what they are now, the case for my side of the argument is only going to get stronger.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Neil_Boekend » Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:26 pm UTC

I think water damage shouldn't void the warranty of a phone. A phone is always with you, even when it rains. Failing to design a phone to withstand rain is failing to design a phone IMHO. There are very few properly designed phones and AFAIK none of them feature an actual waterproof USB port. They always claim the crappy port seal should be closed while these things wear out far too fast to trust it.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:43 pm UTC

ucim wrote:There's the philosophical part too - it makes you more and more dependent.

Either on the cloud, or on Apple stores, or on universal availability of the internet... that's the thing. Little by little, the ability for individuals to easily do stuff is being taken away, replaced by a reliance on some system that has other ends in mind. It started (in my mind) when Apple stopped putting internal floppies into their computers. "Of course you'll have the internet, always and everywhere..."

It's not stopping.

Jose


That's how all fields work. Creatining/maintaining your own stuff tends to get harder as complexity increases. See also, working on cars. Little more complicated now than it used to be, because various advancements have made cars more complex.

This is why society specializes...so things CAN get better/more complicated, and you don't have to handle literally everything you use. Now, sure, I like tinkering, but most people just don't.

As for voiding your warranty in other ways, well, yes, of COURSE you can do that. But if you've voided your warranty, the fact that pulling the battery voids the warranty is already irrelevant. A lot of electronics are not meant to be waterproof. You can certainly purchase one that is, but waterproofing isn't a universal feature on phones for sure.

Also, alternate screwdrivers are pretty easy to manage. Vaguely annoying, but I don't even order them, I just convert spare screwdrivers as I run into them.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby ucim » Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:06 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:That's how all fields work. Creatining/maintaining your own stuff tends to get harder as complexity increases.
It doesn't have to. Nothing required abandoning the floppy (except that Apple wanted to promote the Cloud). Nothing requires abandoning other forms of removable storage either, but people are so excited about "upgrades" that they'll consider anything so touted as being obviously better.

The ability to use the cloud is an upgrade. The requirement to use the cloud is not.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:13 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:That's how all fields work. Creatining/maintaining your own stuff tends to get harder as complexity increases.
It doesn't have to. Nothing required abandoning the floppy (except that Apple wanted to promote the Cloud). Nothing requires abandoning other forms of removable storage either, but people are so excited about "upgrades" that they'll consider anything so touted as being obviously better.

The ability to use the cloud is an upgrade. The requirement to use the cloud is not.

Jose


The floppy disk isn't really a standard anymore because it holds an irrelevantly small amount of data, and while apple may have been eager to move off it, everyone else did too. I mean, you CAN go install a drive, but why? We have flash drives now that are way better. And google drive is pretty good. Plus wifi is pervasive, so I don't need removable media to transfer files, mostly.

Seriously, even flash drives see use fairly seldomly for me. Same for SD cards and the like, even though many devices allow me to use them.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Feb 12, 2016 8:41 pm UTC

Phone Cameras write to storage whenever they take a picture. When you're taking 12MP, 16MP, or 20MP photos with today's smartphones (possibly in the RAW / DNG lossless file formats), you'd be surprised at how long you'd be waiting for storage. Taking four or five shots of a good moment becomes sloggy. 30fps 1080p videos also require a surprising amount of bandwidth.

I don't see microSD cards as "removable" storage, as much as I see them as an upgrade option, as well as a customization point to choose speed / performance price points. If you're not going to be taking super-high definition pictures all the time, you'd probably be fine with a cheap MicroSD. If you want maximum performance, you need a top-end MicroSDXC UHS-I. My specific phone requires the battery to be removed before the MicroSD slot is open, for example. I know other phones allow removable storage, but that's just not a use-case in my life.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Feb 12, 2016 8:59 pm UTC

If you're going to be taking super hi def pictures all the time, you should probably not be using your camera phone.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:06 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:If you're going to be taking super hi def pictures all the time, you should probably not be using your camera phone.


On the contrary, if your camera phone supports RAW or DNG, you might as well enable it so that you capture the highest quality possible. Unless you actually have storage issues, but honestly storage is cheap unless you're locked to a specific platform that I've been hating on for almost a page of posts now...

The $23 64GB MicroSD card supports 3000 RAW or DNG pictures (assuming each picture is about 22MB each).

Camera phones don't have the benefits of lenses or other advanced DLSR stuff... but advanced DSLR cameras cost hundreds of dollars by themselves. An entry-level good quality DSLR like the EOS Rebel is like $300 minimum. On the other hand, the camera that comes with your phone was basically free. Even Android phones are equipped with decent camera sensors now (which have historically been a problem).
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:12 pm UTC

My point is that camera phones are not particularly good cameras. I mean, they're awesome for what can be physically shoved into the corner of a phone, but if you're looking to spend money/customize/etc for better picture quality, investing that money into your smartphone is probably not ideal, because you've got some severe hardware limitations baked into the device.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:15 pm UTC

$23 for a microSD card is not what I'd call an "investment"... nor is the 10 seconds to switch the mode over to RAW / DNG for maximum performance.

I mean, its a simple matter of, my phone has a camera on it. I might as well use it to the best of its ability. Personally speaking, I'm not a DSLR guy (my sister is sorta the family photographer for events and stuff), but I find phone cameras to be convenient. Most of the time I'm taking pictures of people's routers so that I have a copy of the passwords written on their sides, but occasionally something beautiful comes up and I want to take a picture of it.

EDIT: And on the plus side, I get to use it for other purposes. I can use my phone as a flash drive basically and copy data between my computers and my friend's, as long as either he or I have a USB cable lying around. The $23 purchase for a 64GB MicroSD card goes a long way. And those that do care have the option to upgrade all the way to 200GB MicroSD cards now (~8000 DNG / RAW capacity).
Last edited by KnightExemplar on Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:28 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby sardia » Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:22 pm UTC

I'm with knight, storage is cheap, compression is readily available and most people who care aren't on iPhone. The trade off is mostly in his favor here. It's not like he got a worse phone just to get a better camera.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:37 pm UTC

Eh, if you're talking just the card, sure...but this also applies to upgrade cycle. There's a significant cost difference between upgrading whenever the new one comes out, and keeping phones till they die.

And yeah, if you're just taking pictures of the router for the PW, sure, any camera works for that. But then, you don't really need the quality dialed up. You can take some pretty ludicrous quantities of photos on default settings. I take pictures instead of taking notes all the time, particularly if it's something that I'm not likely to actually need(reciept or something).

Pervasive wifi mostly kills the need for a usb cable at all. If I need to transfer files, I just do.

A lot of this stuff isn't actually a problem at all for general use. I mean, sure, having a card slot is better than not having a card slot...but if people are also complaining about things like waterproofing, punching more holes in the case doesn't help that, and adding more internals does take up a degree of space. There's just some hard tradeoffs here, and I'd be hard pressed to claim the iphone team understood them poorly or chose incorrectly.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Dauric » Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:45 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Pervasive wifi mostly kills the need for a usb cable at all. If I need to transfer files, I just do.


This is fine and dandy if wifi is actually pervasive where you are. Downtown Denver is at best spotty (assuming you can get good signal strength to a wifi router that's not locked), get in to the suburbs and it's pretty much strictly private routers. Rural you're lucky to get cell signal.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby ucim » Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:50 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:The floppy disk isn't really a standard anymore because it holds an irrelevantly small amount of data, and while apple may have been eager to move off it, everyone else did too.
Eventually. But Apple was making floppy-less computers long before the floppy was obsolete. I'd say the Apple helped kill the floppy prematurely. (Actually, I'd been using floppies up until just a few years ago, but I do tend to hang on to old stuff that works.)

There are other tradeoffs that are silently made for you when independence is taken away. Even when wifi is ubiquitous, it's less secure than handing somebody a disk or a chip. And anything in the cloud belongs to the host, not the customer. I'm certain that google is poring over all the metadata of the google accounts they have merged (after ensuring that customers could not easily delete their documents before the merger). I'm not even certain Google doesn't read the actual documents; maybe that's too paranoid, but they've done other stuff in that vein.

The point is, these tradeoffs are made for you, not by you. And not for your benefit.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:55 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Eh, if you're talking just the card, sure...but this also applies to upgrade cycle. There's a significant cost difference between upgrading whenever the new one comes out, and keeping phones till they die.

And yeah, if you're just taking pictures of the router for the PW, sure, any camera works for that. But then, you don't really need the quality dialed up. You can take some pretty ludicrous quantities of photos on default settings. I take pictures instead of taking notes all the time, particularly if it's something that I'm not likely to actually need(reciept or something).

Pervasive wifi mostly kills the need for a usb cable at all. If I need to transfer files, I just do.

A lot of this stuff isn't actually a problem at all for general use. I mean, sure, having a card slot is better than not having a card slot...but if people are also complaining about things like waterproofing, punching more holes in the case doesn't help that, and adding more internals does take up a degree of space. There's just some hard tradeoffs here, and I'd be hard pressed to claim the iphone team understood them poorly or chose incorrectly.


The Sony Xperia Z5 is IP 68 certified Waterproof and Dustproof, has a 23MP camera f/2.0 aperture. Its missing the removable battery, but DOES have the microSD slot for those super-high resolution camera shots.

So you totally can make a "waterproof" phone with MicroSD card support. Granted, IP 68 is only somewhere on the order of "more than 1 meter" (very shallow waterproofing), but it still is a full submersion test. When people open up the Xperia Z5, there's rubber EDIT: adhesive around the cover and battery (so you have to wonder if the lack of "removable battery" is due to the waterproofing tests. IE: Sony made a tradeoff here that is potentially beneficial to the consumers. You lose removable batteries, but you gain waterproofing. )

Not good enough for me to bring that phone to the pool with me, but I wouldn't worry about dropping the phone in a puddle with that level of testing.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Dauric » Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:03 pm UTC

ucim wrote: I'm not even certain Google doesn't read the actual documents; maybe that's too paranoid, but they've done other stuff in that vein.


The mental trauma from reading their user's collected Twilight/Cthulhu slashfic would probably require hazard pay.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:32 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:The floppy disk isn't really a standard anymore because it holds an irrelevantly small amount of data, and while apple may have been eager to move off it, everyone else did too.
Eventually. But Apple was making floppy-less computers long before the floppy was obsolete. I'd say the Apple helped kill the floppy prematurely. (Actually, I'd been using floppies up until just a few years ago, but I do tend to hang on to old stuff that works.)

There are other tradeoffs that are silently made for you when independence is taken away. Even when wifi is ubiquitous, it's less secure than handing somebody a disk or a chip. And anything in the cloud belongs to the host, not the customer. I'm certain that google is poring over all the metadata of the google accounts they have merged (after ensuring that customers could not easily delete their documents before the merger). I'm not even certain Google doesn't read the actual documents; maybe that's too paranoid, but they've done other stuff in that vein.

The point is, these tradeoffs are made for you, not by you. And not for your benefit.

Jose


They also significantly assisted the adoption of CDs. New stuff sometimes requires abandoning old stuff. Or at least, is helped by it. I, for one, am quite satisfied with never again installing SoftWindows off of the 93 floppy disks or whatever it was. Swapping over to CDs at the time was the best thing ever.

Obviously, they're decisions made by other people. I do not want to, nor am I able to intelligently design everything I use myself. Nor do I expect that they are working solely for my benefit. That's an unreasonable expectation. They are trying to do what's best for them, and incidentally, this will include making their products appealing to many people. This may not be tailored for me, but it results in a wide range of handy things. I suppose I *could* get my own hardware designed by me, built specifically for me, but...that's usually impractical. Once you get past fearmongering, what do you seriously expect to happen?

I do not believe that Google cares overly much about my pictures of cats or whatever else. I'm sure that they collect metadata on my files for various purposes, but...who cares? My personal files are likely not very interesting to them, nor very useful. It's not like I have the cure to cancer stuffed there. What's really there to be paranoid about?

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby bigglesworth » Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:38 pm UTC

If you had the cure for cancer on there, I'd be OK with Google stealing it and marketing it.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:54 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:I do not believe that Google cares overly much about my pictures of cats or whatever else. I'm sure that they collect metadata on my files for various purposes, but...who cares? My personal files are likely not very interesting to them, nor very useful. It's not like I have the cure to cancer stuffed there. What's really there to be paranoid about?


Depends on exactly what you're doing. Personal pictures? Sure, fine whatever. Stuff for your work? Well, if it's valuable, I'd be leery about letting Google peek at it. At my last job, I was working at a non-US government lab, and we were absolutely forbidden to us DropBox or Google Drive or any other cloud based storage for any work-related materials, since using those programs is tantamount to sharing your data with the US government.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby commodorejohn » Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:11 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:The floppy disk isn't really a standard anymore because it holds an irrelevantly small amount of data, and while apple may have been eager to move off it, everyone else did too.
Eventually. But Apple was making floppy-less computers long before the floppy was obsolete. I'd say the Apple helped kill the floppy prematurely. (Actually, I'd been using floppies up until just a few years ago, but I do tend to hang on to old stuff that works.)

They also killed the floppy without providing any good transition path, to boot - the first Macs with USB were also the first Macs without floppy drives, so in order to copy your files/software over you had to either purchase a USB controller for your old Mac (and only then-recent '96-'97 PPC Macs had PCI slots with which to do so - I can't find any indication that there ever were USB controllers for Nubus or any of the 63 million incompatible PDS slots) or purchase a (third-party) USB floppy drive for the new machine (this was the absolute first accessory my uncle purchased when he bought his original iMac - can't remember if he bought it at the same time or shortly after.)
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby morriswalters » Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:44 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Depends on exactly what you're doing. Personal pictures? Sure, fine whatever. Stuff for your work? Well, if it's valuable, I'd be leery about letting Google peek at it. At my last job, I was working at a non-US government lab, and we were absolutely forbidden to us DropBox or Google Drive or any other cloud based storage for any work-related materials, since using those programs is tantamount to sharing your data with the US government.
Yeah you just can't substitute for good sense, can you? The only secret you have are ones you don't share. The sad thing is that you have to be told.

Floppy's sucked hard. And which floppy's are being talked about anyway, small, medium or large? Floppy's died because files grew faster than the hardware. Apple was just on the raw, bleeding edge.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby ucim » Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:37 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:Floppies died because files grew faster than the hardware.
(FTFY)
No, floppies were doomed because files grew too big. Floppies died because support ended. But Apple ended support long before floppies stopped being useful.

As for letting Google (or any other profiling company) have my metadata (or my actual data), if you don't see the problem, I'm afraid that I can't explain it to you.

No, cancel that. I'm very afraid I can't explain it to you. We are heading rapidly in the direction where profiling companies will be deciding what your solution set is. I'm not comfortable with a future in which Facebook picks my wife, Zillow picks my neighborhood, and Amazon picks my reading material. I will agree that day is not here yet. But I am not certain that that day will not come in my lifetime. It is a day I'd like to postpone as long as I can. One of the ways to do it is to deny them as much data as possible. I'd rather make my own mistakes.

Jose
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby KnightExemplar » Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:36 pm UTC

Floppies were awful by today's standards, but were quite good for a long time. Note that USB adoption was rather slow, and that USB Flash drives were expensive and slow. Honestly, it was CD-R technology that finally killed the floppy.

The major contenders to replace the 1.4mb floppy were JAZZ, and ZIP, and of course... CD-R the eventual winner. Usb mass storage didn't become popular for years after that... and when Dvd-rw came out, 500mb flash drives remained impractical. When 4gb of storage is cheaper and faster (DVDs) why use flash? It wasn't until Usb flash drives hit 8gb or so did they finally become more popular than DVDs.

So yeah, apple definitely removed floppy support too early. I was carrying book reports on floppies into 2004 (last time I remember saving on a floppy)

Another note... Floppies were uniquely positioned as boot drives due to low cost. Recovery disks, when your OS died are always useful, and even in the early 2000s, the cost of cd or dvd was high enough that you couldn't assume that users had them yet.

Did... You live in the era of 90s computing? Floppies were everywhere for a reason.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby morriswalters » Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:29 pm UTC

ucim wrote:No, floppies were doomed because files grew too big. Floppies died because support ended. But Apple ended support long before floppies stopped being useful.
Floppy's were dying, period. And everybody wasn't using Apple products. You could have walked away from Apple if they quit producing a product you wanted less than you wanted floppy's.

ucim wrote: I'm very afraid I can't explain it to you. We are heading rapidly in the direction where profiling companies will be deciding what your solution set is. I'm not comfortable with a future in which Facebook picks my wife, Zillow picks my neighborhood, and Amazon picks my reading material. I will agree that day is not here yet. But I am not certain that that day will not come in my lifetime. It is a day I'd like to postpone as long as I can. One of the ways to do it is to deny them as much data as possible. I'd rather make my own mistakes.
Companies have been involved in making those decisions for some time. Technology drove this. Landlines and the associated telephone directories were metadata of the iron age. The metadata of the Silicon age is simply more comprehensive. If you want out, then get out. Unplug. Get a typewriter, use snail mail. You seem to want the convenience of technology without the risks.
KnightExemplar wrote:Did... You live in the era of 90s computing? Floppies were everywhere for a reason.
Yeah, they were cheap and available. The drives consumed power and were fragile and unreliable, I personally went through hundreds if not thousands of floppy's. The drives are still available, however I am uncertain if operating systems support them.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby ucim » Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:15 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Floppy's were dying, period.
Floppy's what were dying? Floppies themselves were very much alive in those days. They did not want to go on the cart. There isn't a technology around that isn't "dying". Floppies were extremely convenient, and far superior to the other available technology in every respect except raw capacity. Not everyone needed to copy video files all the time.

I still miss not having to mount stuff.

morriswalters wrote:You could have walked away from Apple
I did, but that's not the point. Apple shaped the solution set.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby morriswalters » Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:12 pm UTC

ucim wrote:They did not want to go on the cart.
There is no they.
ucim wrote:Not everyone needed to copy video files all the time.
Videos were only an example. Applications are another. Floppy's were what they were, a midpoint of technological development. And they are still available.
ucim wrote: Floppies were extremely convenient, and far superior to the other available technology
What? As much as I hate the era of disposable technology, I see no other way of getting from here to the future. If you kept every technology that has been superseded than your Mac would have serial and parallel ports. Dedicated mouse and keyboard ports. At least one tape machine, three different sizes of floppy's, multiple memory types and so on. Things go obsolete. I'm open to a better way, but I can't see it. And I'm old enough that I'm not as flexible as I used to be, mentally. So it becomes more difficult for me to keep up.
ucim wrote:I did, but that's not the point. Apple shaped the solution set.
That is how it works. If you don't like a product, migrate or make a better one yourself. Apple has no mandate to make you happy. They want to make money. For them, at this point it seems to be working.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby ucim » Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:46 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:There is no they.
It's a metaphor - a quote from Monty Python. "They" refers to the floppies. They weren't dead yet.

And it's floppies. Plural. Not floppy's (possessive).

morriswalters wrote:Videos were only an example.
Yes, they were only an example. While there are other big files, there was plenty of transferring of small files. And whether floppies are available now is not the point. I was using floppies as an example of how perfectly good tech is driven out prematurely to our detriment.

Or to mine anyway. I won't speak for you. :)

morriswalters wrote:Things go obsolete. I'm open to a better way, but I can't see it.
Let things go obsolete of their own accord. Don't kick them out the door at the first glimpse of "ooh, shiny!".

Obligatory

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby commodorejohn » Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:03 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Floppies were awful by today's standards, but were quite good for a long time. Note that USB adoption was rather slow, and that USB Flash drives were expensive and slow. Honestly, it was CD-R technology that finally killed the floppy.

Exactly. It feels like people have forgotten how long it took for Flash memory to get down from "available" to actually affordable. I didn't get a USB flash drive until 2004, and then it was a paltry 128MB, because I was cash-strapped college student. Up until then, floppy disks were absolutely a useful technology for my various computers that didn't have a CD-R drive (which was affordable much earlier on, but not so much that you wanted to just go buy one for every single system you owned.)

morriswalters wrote:Companies have been involved in making those decisions for some time. Technology drove this. Landlines and the associated telephone directories were metadata of the iron age. The metadata of the Silicon age is simply more comprehensive. If you want out, then get out. Unplug. Get a typewriter, use snail mail. You seem to want the convenience of technology without the risks.

Why not? It's not like the conveniences and the risks are all completely inextricable. Nothing dictates that ubiquitous internet access and online communication must come at the price of loss of privacy and commercial intrusion on personal life. It's not an inconsistent position to embrace the former while rejecting the latter; it just means that something needs to be done about the latter.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby morriswalters » Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:41 pm UTC

ucim wrote:And it's floppies. Plural. Not floppy's (possessive).
Yeah I was wondering about that, decrepitude has set in I suppose.
ucim wrote:Let things go obsolete of their own accord. Don't kick them out the door at the first glimpse of "ooh, shiny!".
commodorejohn wrote:Nothing dictates that ubiquitous internet access and online communication must come at the price of loss of privacy and commercial intrusion on personal life.
You say this like there was a decision made somewhere for it to get to this point or that you can exert enough control to change it. All this came about because of random individuals who innovated as it came to them. Individuals seeking to take advantage of things to benefit themselves. The belief that you can guide change is magical thinking. You can't see far enough ahead and there are too many individuals working to their own interests. I agree that superficially it seems like you can construct a better path. But nothing in my experience indicates that you can construct any path as an exercise of will.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Lazar » Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:20 pm UTC

On the topic of news, I'm endlessly amused by these tiny little mid-sentence quotations that the BBC does. Al-Shabab 'carried out' Somalia plane attack. The rent is 'too' damn high. Socrates is 'an' Athenian. Water 'is' wet.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby commodorejohn » Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:11 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:You say this like there was a decision made somewhere for it to get to this point or that you can exert enough control to change it. All this came about because of random individuals who innovated as it came to them. Individuals seeking to take advantage of things to benefit themselves. The belief that you can guide change is magical thinking. You can't see far enough ahead and there are too many individuals working to their own interests. I agree that superficially it seems like you can construct a better path. But nothing in my experience indicates that you can construct any path as an exercise of will.

You or I probably can't. But people in the collective sense sure as hell can. That's why women can vote. That's why the US no longer has institutionalized slavery. That's why a whole lot of things that used to be big problems no longer are, or at least aren't nearly as bad. And none of those changes started with people saying "well, whaddya gonna do, gotta take the bad with the good." That's the thing I really take issue with here, the notion that since things have already taken a turn for the bad, there's no point in objecting to it, and you have to just accept the objectionable things or remove yourself from modern society altogether.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby sardia » Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:22 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:
morriswalters wrote:You say this like there was a decision made somewhere for it to get to this point or that you can exert enough control to change it. All this came about because of random individuals who innovated as it came to them. Individuals seeking to take advantage of things to benefit themselves. The belief that you can guide change is magical thinking. You can't see far enough ahead and there are too many individuals working to their own interests. I agree that superficially it seems like you can construct a better path. But nothing in my experience indicates that you can construct any path as an exercise of will.

You or I probably can't. But people in the collective sense sure as hell can. That's why women can vote. That's why the US no longer has institutionalized slavery. That's why a whole lot of things that used to be big problems no longer are, or at least aren't nearly as bad. And none of those changes started with people saying "well, whaddya gonna do, gotta take the bad with the good." That's the thing I really take issue with here, the notion that since things have already taken a turn for the bad, there's no point in objecting to it, and you have to just accept the objectionable things or remove yourself from modern society altogether.

Those were massive collection of people places and things coalescing, this is the ramblings of a hermit. If you want to change the world like that, you need other people who agree with you. Are you trying to gauge how widespread the "older but not too old" is better mentality? Because I think you'll definitely find them, but they won't agree on what "older" things they liked.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby commodorejohn » Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:28 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Those were massive collection of people places and things coalescing, this is the ramblings of a hermit. If you want to change the world like that, you need other people who agree with you.

Not disputing that. I'm just (as I said) taking issue with the idea that nobody should object to this stuff because the fact that it's already happened means it's set in stone for the entire future forever.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby addams » Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:34 pm UTC

Lazar wrote:On the topic of news, I'm endlessly amused by these tiny little mid-sentence quotations that the BBC does. Al-Shabab 'carried out' Somalia plane attack. The rent is 'too' damn high. Socrates is 'an' Athenian. Water 'is' wet.

(?) Following Links
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-32796857

There is a funny in there, somewhere.
I'm, just, not looking at it right.

Some dip-shit blows a hole in a plane and ends his own life.
In response the governments of the Kenya, the USA and Europe cripple banking for the people of Somalia.

Somalia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia
A place that survives on private charity.

A woman's brother sends $100.00,
her child is able to go to school.

Both Uncles send $25.00,
the family pays rent.

A place where on the streets,
people have fingerprint readers that are better than anything the FBI had 30 years ago.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

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Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby ucim » Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:48 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote: All this came about because of random individuals who innovated as it came to them.
These individuals were hardly random. They were extremely powerful people who used their extremely outsized marketing clout to decide what was good for the general public. And to convince the general public to follow them. It's not innovation, it's market power.

morriswalters wrote:The belief that you can guide change is magical thinking.
The belief that the belief that you can guide change is magical thinking is defeatist thinking. Change (or resistance to change, either way) comes about from people convincing other people. Conversation (like this one) is part of that. And this conversation was ultimately in response to the 150 year old mousetrap that still worked, which led to Diadem's comment that
Diadem wrote:Personally I'm of the opinion that old cars should be banned, or at least slapped with an extra tax.
...which if taken seriously would lead to requiring us to all buy new computers too, to rid us of insecure operating systems.
Spoiler:
...though it might be worth it if we kill Microsoft Bob and Internet Exploder by doing so. :) But no - then we'd all have to use Chrome.
It is that mentality to which I strenuously object - the idea that without even having the tiniest breath of a clue about what a person does with their car and what they can afford and what they value, that they should have to purchase a new one to satisfy some "it's too old" paradigm.

I have a lot more to say about this, but ... oooh, shiny!

Jose
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby addams » Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:18 pm UTC

In the USA there was and still may be a law that gives owners of cars 25 years old or older special consideration.
Those old cars are a pain to maintain. They are rolling History.

Once upon a time, in a land not so far away,
it was considered 'cool' to take a car apart and put it back together.

I could not do it.
I've known people that could.

It's like a SuperPower.
Some people can look at a machine and they get one of those breakaway images in their heads.
https://www.google.com/search?q=mechani ... 3DcjSnM%3A

They say it can be learned by Anyone.
I think it is a Talent; Like Music.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby morriswalters » Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:18 am UTC

ucim wrote:These individuals were hardly random. They were extremely powerful people who used their extremely outsized marketing clout to decide what was good for the general public. And to convince the general public to follow them. It's not innovation, it's market power.
That doesn't really describe the creation of the Apple Computers, or Microsoft, or Facebook or almost any of the innovative companies that are causing the problems you seem to be thinking of. For Microsoft to make Gates a billionaire, IBM had to make a decision to create the PC platform without an OS. Do you think that had IBM known how things would work out that they would have licensed MS-DOS. Once power exists, people will use it. But where and when technical innovation will occur is random, dependent only prior innovations.


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