In other news... (humorous news items)

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addams
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby addams » Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:37 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:
Chen wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:You cannot judge him by your Western Values. Well, I guess you can and have but that is dismissive of the culture that he was brought up in and dismissive of the values that he holds important.


When his culture and values he held as important caused him to start killing civilians many years after the war had ended, yeah I'm ok with being dismissive towards that. I can understand why he was doing it, but it doesn't justify it at all.


Firstly, he never thought the war was over. Secondly, Western Values at that time, fully encouraged wholesale slaughter of civilians.


Explain the Geneva Conventions then.

That's not funny.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Geneva_Convention

If you want the Geneva Convention explained; You Do It!
Please put that explanation behind a spoiler tag.

Stop! We were ordered to keep it funny in this thread.
A moments break in the silliness has been tolerated, in the past.

If you would like to discuss War, soldiers, death, public and private grieving and the uses of our human suffering for propaganda and profit,
Start another thread.
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Some of us see The Gutter.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Chen » Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:38 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:Firstly, he never thought the war was over. Secondly, Western Values at that time, fully encouraged wholesale slaughter of civilians.


I think there's a difference between fully encouraging slaughter of civilians and the civilian deaths that occurred. Regardless of this, even if the allies DID willfully encourage civilian killings, how does that justify anything this guy did? I can decry both his killing of civilians and the allies killing of civilians. I can also consider his killing of civilians and continued military actions 30 years after the war ended as stupid and wasteful. Hell one of the wikipedia sources mentions he had a short wave radio he listened to australian broadcasts on. That he didn't think to try and communicate with his higher ups at all during 30 years and continued killing people is just plain stupid.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Heisenberg » Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:44 pm UTC

If your cell phone is near a protest in Ukraine, the government will send you this handy-dandy text:
Dear subscriber, you are registered as a participant in a mass disturbance.

Thanks, technology!

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby addams » Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:28 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:If your cell phone is near a protest in Ukraine, the government will send you this handy-dandy text:
Dear subscriber, you are registered as a participant in a mass disturbance.

Thanks, technology!

Oh, Holy Crap!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/thr ... story.html

Technology! You vixen!
Where is the funny?

What is it like for those people?
Are they considering leaving the phones at home?

What good would that do?
Why are they out protesting, if not to be counted?
Spoiler:
I went to protests and signed in.
I swear! That is so funny.

In 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005;
I signed in. Such a stupid thing to do.

But; It was like continuing ed or in-service.
It was only natural to sign in.

I may be on a list of people that repeatedly Stood in a Circle and Sang Church Songs. eeewww.


Can't they, just, phone it in?
Each protester can call the Dictator of the Moment with a check-in and complaint of the day.

Or; Hack the system and Rick Roll the offending Parties.
Fire with Fire; Message with Message, the battle wages on.

Hey! The Technology is to be used to be funny.
It is funny, if the Big Boys everywhere play like the US.

The leaders in the US snip at each other on Twitter.
That is what the internet says. The internet knows everything.

With the technology, civilians should Not be putting their lives on the line like that.
Those people are European. They know the masses can not throw themselves at the castle walls to any great effect.

Where did that message come from?
Are they going to get arrested?
Spoiler:
I did.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby KrytenKoro » Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:20 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote: He was brought up Japan at an incredibly militaristic, when they brought back the Bushido code of honour and in military service had sworn their lives to their God Emperor. He wasn't just a leader but a deity.

Not to mention that the Japanese didn't take the state religion as seriously as some of the more theocratic, "our emperor is a god" nations did. And Bushido is about as historically grounded as King Arthur's court and chivalry.

I mean for crying out loud, if they thought he was a god emperor, why were all the generals in charge and overruling most of his decisions?

And yeah, no, I'm perfectly happy with decrying any nation's culture if that culture prizes "winning battles for the sake of it" over "not trying to avoid pointless suffering and death of human beings". I will state here, for the record: fuck any such culture.
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby PolakoVoador » Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:24 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:If your cell phone is near a protest in Ukraine, the government will send you this handy-dandy text:
Dear subscriber, you are registered as a participant in a mass disturbance.

Thanks, technology!


Ukraine's government reactions to the protests are being incredibly shitty.

"Hmm, the people is going to the streets, and they are unhappy with some decision I made. I know! Let's make protesting illegal! Problem solved! I should give myself a raise."

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby rat4000 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:06 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:"winning battles for the sake of it"
"trying to avoid pointless suffering and death of human beings"
Ain't it fun how the two are compatible?

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:15 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:If your cell phone is near a protest in Ukraine, the government will send you this handy-dandy text:
Dear subscriber, you are registered as a participant in a mass disturbance.

Thanks, technology!


I sense an excellent market opportunity for tin foil cell phone cases.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby KrytenKoro » Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:16 pm UTC

rat4000 wrote:
KrytenKoro wrote:"winning battles for the sake of it"
"trying to avoid pointless suffering and death of human beings"
Ain't it fun how the two are compatible?

You're right, I mistyped.

S/b "And yeah, no, I'm perfectly happy with decrying any nation's culture if that culture prizes "winning battles for the sake of it" over "trying to avoid pointless suffering and death of human beings". I will state here, for the record: fuck any such culture."
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:23 pm UTC

That's entirely fair. I fear that sometimes, for the sake of being understanding of cultural differences, we slide into the very murky area of treating everything as equal.

Hell, even the culture of the US now is not the culture of the US many years ago, and I have no problem with making a judgement on progress made since then. Culture is definitely not a magic word to excuse wrong-doing.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby BattleMoose » Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:48 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Culture is definitely not a magic word to excuse wrong-doing.


No. But what we perceive as right and wrong is hugely influenced by culture.

I just find the emphasis of the evil of killing innocent civilians , against a Japanese soldier, in a WWII context, highly questionable, considering the Allied Bombing Campaigns killed about a 1000000 innocent civilians.

Anyway, this is the last I have to say on this.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:36 am UTC

BattleMoose wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Culture is definitely not a magic word to excuse wrong-doing.


No. But what we perceive as right and wrong is hugely influenced by culture.

I just find the emphasis of the evil of killing innocent civilians , against a Japanese soldier, in a WWII context, highly questionable, considering the Allied Bombing Campaigns killed about a 1000000 innocent civilians.


Japan killed more than 10 times that, in China alone. Not including Korea, or the Phillippines, or Vietnam, or the Ainu, just China. Many were literally raped to death. While 'Not as Bad As...' is a terrible argument, keep things in perspective.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:39 am UTC

BattleMoose wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Culture is definitely not a magic word to excuse wrong-doing.


No. But what we perceive as right and wrong is hugely influenced by culture.

I just find the emphasis of the evil of killing innocent civilians , against a Japanese soldier, in a WWII context, highly questionable, considering the Allied Bombing Campaigns killed about a 1000000 innocent civilians.

Anyway, this is the last I have to say on this.


The problem is not that he was a soldier killing people during a war. The problem is that he was killing people thirty years after the war ended. The fact that he didn't know it ended makes him oblivious, but that doesn't absolve him of those murders. He is a serial killer with nearly as many victims to his name as Ted Bundy.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby addams » Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:50 am UTC

Do not feed the Trolls.
Do not feed the Trolls.
Do not feed the Trolls.

Is it funny?
To feed Trolls?
Is it funny?

The Trolls think so, maybe.
Trolls are not always Trolls.

Sometimes they have real names.
Sometimes they are complex real human beings.

Not always.
Bots are programed to be argumentative.
Bots are programed with the arguments of the ages.

Do we argue with Bots?
Yes. Sometimes we argue, until we understand.
The Bot never understands. Bots can't.

Only people can.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby KrytenKoro » Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:45 am UTC

I also...kinda find it bewilderingthat BattleMoose is comparing the civilian killcounts of this guy to that of the Allies, not, y'know...the actual civilians being killed here.

's like..."well, it's just a cultural thing to say that the Tuskagee Project was a tragedy, 'cause donchaknow that the Martians wiped out entire tribes on Pluto with their genetic tampering?" This isn't even "which side is less horrifying than the other" -- the Allies aren't even a side in this issue. If this thing could even be described as sides, it's "serial killer and the culture that honored him for senseless killings long after there was any rational benefit to be had from them and long after he was told he could stop vs. the pretty defenseless civilians who happened to live near him."

And to that I say: fuck that culture. Fuck any such culture, including any that existed on the side of the Allies. Yeah, soldiers should be able to excercise their own judgment as to whether their orders are legitimate and conscionable, but...if you're not absolutely rock-solid certain the orders are false, and you still choose to kill someone else, you are a murderer. End of story. Any and all excuses not to kill someone else should be excercised, no matter how many "dishonorable discharges" you imagine you might face.
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Adacore » Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:49 am UTC

While I don't disagree at all with the general sentiment, it's probably worth noting that if it genuinely were wartime then you'd be less likely to receive a dishonourable discharge than you would an execution if you refused to follow orders, at least in the WW2-era Japanese military.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby KrytenKoro » Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:15 am UTC

Adacore wrote:While I don't disagree at all with the general sentiment, it's probably worth noting that if it genuinely were wartime then you'd be less likely to receive a dishonourable discharge than you would an execution if you refused to follow orders, at least in the WW2-era Japanese military.

True, true. There's the caveat that Japan's "Bushido culture" wasn't exactly opposed to the idea of sacrificing your life for your honor, and there are even plenty of stories about violating the Bushido code and accepting that punishment/sacrifice if it was the right thing to do -- although, granted, a lot of these are still about "killing someone else to retain (bushido's version of) honor".

To be fair, my low regard for the sanctity of my own life might be biasing my decision of "it's better to die than to kill someone else", but...meh.
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby BattleMoose » Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:30 am UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:I also...kinda find it bewilderingthat BattleMoose is comparing the civilian killcounts of this guy to that of the Allies, not, y'know...the actual civilians being killed here.


Let me try again. If you are going to judge this guy, we have to do it in the context that he lived in. The biggest issue by far here is the number of civilians he killed. The killing of civilians in a WWII context was accepted and tolerated by all sides. To pick on this guy in particular for killing civilians seems extremely hypocritical. You are judging him now from a 2014 perspective while he was operating in a 1945 context, which isn't fair either. And its worth noting that the civilians he killed were often shooting back at him, reinforcing his idea that the war was ongoing.

He was ordered to surrender by leaflet, easy to fake, easy to fabricate. It could have been an allied ruse. He determined that it was. I think we can all agree that he should have figured out whether or not the war was still on, still, he was following the orders which he was given which he thought were still valid. The fact that this wasn't an isolated incident, is clear in my mind, that the culture of rigidly following orders, was heavily indoctrinated within the IJN armed forces. And being in isolation like that for so long, is very seriously going to mess with your head.

The Japanese military should have done a better job in relieving him.

absolutely rock-solid certain the orders are false,


This just isn't how the military works. Its happened a number of times that sides have given orders to opposing forces and there is often a huge grey area as to the validity of the new orders. And it often causes chaos. Nowhere in military law are soldiers required to be 100% certain that orders are false in order to not obey them.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby addams » Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:41 am UTC

Your post seems to have the ring of truth to it.

Did you know some people have funny stories from War?
It is true. People find the strangest things to laugh at during War.

Did you know a lot of War is boring?
It is true. Some exciting moments surrounded by a lot of waiting.

Hurry Up! Wait!
Out of 7 Billion people, no one did anything funny, today?

We may not be getting All the news.
I will attempt to find something funny.

http://bulawayo24.com/index-id-news-sc- ... 41479.html
How is this for Culture?
The Police run in every direction from a Goblin.

It's funny, because I would run, too.
One never knows about a bucket of stinky blood.
Last edited by addams on Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:55 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby KrytenKoro » Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:53 am UTC

Let me try again. If you are going to judge this guy, we have to do it in the context that he lived in. The biggest issue by far here is the number of civilians he killed. The killing of civilians in a WWII context was accepted and tolerated by all sides. To pick on this guy in particular for killing civilians seems extremely hypocritical. You are judging him now from a 2014 perspective while he was operating in a 1945 context, which isn't fair either. And its worth noting that the civilians he killed were often shooting back at him, reinforcing his idea that the war was ongoing.

Actually, my biggest issue is that he killed civilians, unprovoked, period. And I'll repeat: the civilians, who he was killing up into the 70s (and also, why? what were they doing to him?), were pretty damn sure at the time that what he was doing was wrong. What the people in the ruling governments think is acceptable is...a pritty shit metric, anytime in history.

Furthermore, it's pretty suspect to claim that just because some people were okay with it, it's unassailable. You can find luminaries, even in Japanese culture, going back centuries who were of the view that "killing defenseless civilians is dishonorable/immoral." That, according to your argument, this guy chose to cling to a cultural viewpoint that allowed him to slaughter innocent people who had no quarrel with him (except the slaughtering, LOL ROFLMAO!) does not in any way make what he was doing defensibly moral.

The Japanese military should have done a better job in relieving him.

And the fact that they honored him afterward (as well as that, according to wikipedia, he criticized Japan's "withering of traditional values") does nothing to endear them to me either.

Regardless, he was given legitimate orders to stop, and he chose the path of paranoia and murder. When even the culture that supposedly endorses his perserverance has rescinded his license to continue, the "cultural blinkers" excuse stops working at all.

This just isn't how the military works. Its happened a number of times that sides have given orders to opposing forces and there is often a huge grey area as to the validity of the new orders. And it often causes chaos. Nowhere in military law are soldiers required to be 100% certain that orders are false in order to not obey them.

The funny thing being that I'm not talking about "military law", I'm talking about basic ethics. If you aren't certain that executing another human will result in the alleviation of a comensurate level of suffering/death, then you sure-as-shit ain't anything but a murderer. Even then, you better be bloody remorseful and "it had to be done" about it, no pride or witty Bond one-liners. Are militaries filled with murderers, even in a "just war"? Almost certainly. Can they still accomplish some good even if they are individually immoral? Perhaps! Can it actually be argued that this guy did so? Pretty dang sure the answer is no.

Yes, I will absolutely agree that Western culture is a tapestry of atrocity and shame as well. I'm not arguing this from a "this is why those bloody Japs deserved the bomb" nationalistic perspective (disclaimer: they didn't, even if it could be argued to have saved lives) -- I'm arguing this from a "this is a man who killed others without provocation and despite ample opportunity to stop, why the fuck are we giving him any respect?"
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby BattleMoose » Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:09 am UTC

KrytenKoro: You clearly aren't reading what I am writing. And by your responses I can judge that you totally do not understand my position or what I am communicating, nor have you indicated any attempt to understand. Further communication with you is futile. Out.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby rat4000 » Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:12 am UTC

KrytenKoro wrote: "And yeah, no, I'm perfectly happy with decrying any nation's culture if that culture prizes "winning battles for the sake of it" over "trying to avoid pointless suffering and death of human beings".
That's not a valid comparison. In fact, you can't compare the two things at all; they're unrelated. Here's why: people who die so that a battle is won don't die pointlessly. The point is to win the battle.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Djehutynakht » Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:29 am UTC

Heisenberg wrote:If your cell phone is near a protest in Ukraine, the government will send you this handy-dandy text:
Dear subscriber, you are registered as a participant in a mass disturbance.

Thanks, technology!



At least they're polite about it.

Not like that NSA sneaking around, never stopping in to say hi, or stay and chat a bit.

I expect cordiality from those disturbing my liberties.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby addams » Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:54 am UTC

http://metro.co.uk/2014/01/22/green-fin ... t-4273640/
It is sad.
It is funny.

Poor man is in a jail for something.
He grew a plant.

He took a photo of himself with his plant.
His friends made it go viral on the internet.

Now; He is in special protective custody.
The poor man.
***
The English may be amused.
http://metro.co.uk/2014/01/23/set-in-st ... e-4275088/
When the Metro shuts down, it matters.
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We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby KrytenKoro » Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:29 am UTC

BattleMoose wrote:KrytenKoro: You clearly aren't reading what I am writing. And by your responses I can judge that you totally do not understand my position or what I am communicating, nor have you indicated any attempt to understand. Further communication with you is futile. Out.


I'm reading what you're saying, I just vehemently disagree with your assumptions. Tell me if your main point isn't addressed by one of these:
If you are going to judge this guy, we have to do it in the context that he lived in.

1) No I absolutely do not.
2) It seems to me a pretty big overgeneralization that the context the guy lived in was amenable to civilian-slaughtering, and it's outright false to claim that it was encouraged as a moral good.
3) He chose to ignore legitimate orders and instead proceed with attacking and murdering innocent civilians.
4) Turning it into a numbers game of "which side killed the most civilians" is not only not a winning proposition, but hugely irrelevant. Not only do two wrongs not make a right, not only are the Allies not lauded in modern times for killing civilians, but the Allies weren't involved here at all (and the Allies had a separate culture anyway).

At best, you're arguing that the guy should be forgiven for "being in a tough situation and making a difficult choice". Except: he wasn't in that situation, and what's more, when someone finally forced him to face the truth, he was rewarded for his choice of the path of paranoia and murder, personally decried the "withering of traditional values" in the land that no longer desired to fight, and most relevantly, was being given respect by people on this thread. He's being treated as if he did the right thing. WTF?

That's not a valid comparison. In fact, you can't compare the two things at all; they're unrelated. Here's why: people who die so that a battle is won don't die pointlessly. The point is to win the battle.

Quibbling about semantics is pretty damn irrelevant to my point, but fine, I'll reword: "trying to avoid preventable suffering and death of human beings".

In any case, I'm not contrasting them, I was pretty clearly talking about them as ranked priorities, and I didn't say anything about "people who died in order for the battle to be won" -- murdering 30 civilians didn't win Hiroo any got-damn battles. There are times when battles are justified, but when "winning the battle" becomes more important than "reducing preventable suffering and death", then the battle is no longer warranted.
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby rat4000 » Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:02 am UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:Quibbling about semantics is pretty damn irrelevant to my point, but fine, I'll reword: "trying to avoid preventable suffering and death of human beings".
Now at least the two things you're comparing ("ranking", if you will) are comparable.

Problem is, what you call an obvious truth still isn't. There's so much other stuff to consider. Do the people who die think they die with honor? Do they think honor is more important than life? (If you're about to say that honor can never be more important than life, that's cultural imperialism.) Do the people who suffer think it serves a purpose? ("Honor" again, maybe? And no, you don't get to objectively define suffering.) Does everyone involved believe that the suffering and death are preventable? (Or do they, for instance, believe that if this battle does not occur, the sun won't rise? Or that the battle is divinely ordained?)

It is really hard to make statements about cultures in the abstract.

I can't see how the abstract statement relates to Onoda, by the way; couldn't even in the post I originally responded to. But let's talk about Onoda! Why not?

His issue was whether he could trust the people he viewed as enemies when they told him the war was over. How does he know it's not just a ploy, after all?

Expecting a soldier to keep fighting until one of his allies tells him to stop doesn't strike me as particularly odd. (Once he met that Japanese tourist, it seems the superior officer thing was a formality.) If anything's at issue here, it's his belief that a modern war could go on for thirty years without one of the sides getting exterminated. And even then, sincerely held beliefs do excuse -- morally; while it seems permissible to detain (as opposed to punish) people who can't tell right from wrong in order to reduce the damage they do, it is disingenious to say that they are evil.

And, of course, another thing at issue is his murders of civilians; calling that a justified act of war is... bad. Very bad.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby addams » Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:21 am UTC

But, but, but...
We have a smiling vagina!

Those Europeans are up to it, again.
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 80741.html

"I see many pedagogic advantages to having her art in the school," he told the Goteborgs-Posten newspaper.

Pedagogic?
ped·a·gog·ic
ˌpedəˈgäjik/
adjective
1.
of or relating to teaching.
"they show great pedagogic skills"
synonyms: educational, educative, pedagogical, teaching, instructional, instructive, didactic; More

That's European English for Educational.

I don't see the vagina.
Maybe it takes an educated eye.
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Eowiel
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Eowiel » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:15 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:KrytenKoro: You clearly aren't reading what I am writing. And by your responses I can judge that you totally do not understand my position or what I am communicating, nor have you indicated any attempt to understand. Further communication with you is futile. Out.


I'm reading what you're saying, I just vehemently disagree with your assumptions. Tell me if your main point isn't addressed by one of these:
If you are going to judge this guy, we have to do it in the context that he lived in.

1) No I absolutely do not.
2) It seems to me a pretty big overgeneralization that the context the guy lived in was amenable to civilian-slaughtering, and it's outright false to claim that it was encouraged as a moral good.
3) He chose to ignore legitimate orders and instead proceed with attacking and murdering innocent civilians.
4) Turning it into a numbers game of "which side killed the most civilians" is not only not a winning proposition, but hugely irrelevant. Not only do two wrongs not make a right, not only are the Allies not lauded in modern times for killing civilians, but the Allies weren't involved here at all (and the Allies had a separate culture anyway).



The allies might not be lauded for their killing of civilians but the soldiers who manned the bombers certainly aren't considered criminals, nor the people who commanded the bombings. The comparison with the allies is relevant here because it shows that even in our culture we can consider such deeds as acceptable, even in retrospect.

I do agree however that the Japanese reaction of lauding him feels wrong. If this would have been for example a German soldier I think the German reaction would have been more about introspection and analysis about how they created such a mindset in people that led to this tragedy.

I think it's ok to say that you can't judge him considering the situation but the Japanese society should realise that if he can't be blamed that means that their society was to blame. But making mea culpa's about the war is in general not something the Japanse excel at.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby KrytenKoro » Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:01 pm UTC

Spoilered because this is getting a bit long and I don't want to derail the thread.
Spoiler:
First off, I am familiar with Japanese culture here guys, and the mores I'm judging him against aren't alien to it.

While the Allied soldiers weren't widely seen as monstrous at the time, they were sometimes treated as war criminals for what they did. And furthermore, I'm not claiming what they did was defensible either, and a lot of what the Allies did, like the internment camps, is recognized as an atrocity today. Furthermore -- this guy was neither part of the Allied culture, nor attacking Allied civilians. The people he attacked did at the time, and still are very furious that this guy was not imprisoned, much less given any respect -- and yet, as you can see on this thread, people are still lauding him today. The people he killed were neither necessary to kill for his military objectives, nor in any way "dying for honor" or any other kind of personal sacrifice that would be legitimate in a war -- they died because a small group of soldiers chose to ignore legitimate orders and instead go Rambo on villagers who begged them to stop. His actions had no foreseeable method of advancing imperial Japan's supremacy, as he was ordered to fend off the Allied forces, not the villagers, and as far as I can see, he made no attempt whatsoever, despite being an intelligence officer, to obtain intelligence on whether the orders were legitimate, whether the situation warranted following them (either for moral or military reason), or to confirm what was going on. There's a reason most cultures (including Japan's!) focus so much praise on soldiers who go beyond their orders to hold off enemies at the cost of their own lives, or to extend mercy to their enemies if even for a Christmas day. Hiroo was not one of these men, and honestly? He mostly seems to me to have become a minor legend due to the sheer oddity of his story, as well as...well, quiet bitterness over how the war turned out. He's not even 47 Ronin material

I can't see how the abstract statement relates to Onoda, by the way; couldn't even in the post I originally responded to. But let's talk about Onoda! Why not?

It relates to Onoda, and should relate to all soldiers, as such: he had recieved orders that were apparently legitimate. They gave him an excuse to stop attacking the civilians, if that was even morally defensible in the first place. He chose to view those orders as "probably faked" in order to keep fighting, because it was more important to him that his side "win" than that he look for and exploit any excuse he could to avoid killing. That his victims weren't even soldiers, but just civilians that he conducted guerilla raids to attack, meaning he went out of his way to attack them, is even worse.
Last edited by KrytenKoro on Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:25 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Spambot5546 » Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:08 pm UTC

Adacore wrote:While I don't disagree at all with the general sentiment, it's probably worth noting that if it genuinely were wartime then you'd be less likely to receive a dishonourable discharge than you would an execution if you refused to follow orders, at least in the WW2-era Japanese military.

Fun fact: Disobeying the orders of an officer during times of war can be punished by death as of right now in the US military. Article 90, UCMJ is one of 14 that can be punished by execution, and one of four of which apply only during war time.
"It is bitter – bitter", he answered,
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Because it is bitter,
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby KrytenKoro » Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:28 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:
Adacore wrote:While I don't disagree at all with the general sentiment, it's probably worth noting that if it genuinely were wartime then you'd be less likely to receive a dishonourable discharge than you would an execution if you refused to follow orders, at least in the WW2-era Japanese military.

Fun fact: Disobeying the orders of an officer during times of war can be punished by death as of right now in the US military. Article 90, UCMJ is one of 14 that can be punished by execution, and one of four of which apply only during war time.

And the thing is, he was given orders to stop.

He chose to ignore those orders, and he wasn't explicitly ordered to attack the villagers in the first place.

He doesn't have that get-out-of-jail-free card, even if "I killed the civilians because I was told to" wasn't already an international war crime.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:37 pm UTC

The orders issue is important...and it's important to point out that the allies viewed the killing of civilians as incidental. Yes, they did not strive to avoid them as we do with modern sensibilities, but they didn't strive for them, either. Failing to kill civilians was not something that would get you in trouble. So...trying to draw a parallel there is a wee bit flawed.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Coyne » Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:49 am UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:[...] he made no attempt whatsoever, despite being an intelligence officer, to obtain intelligence on whether the orders were legitimate, whether the situation warranted following them (either for moral or military reason), or to confirm what was going on.

Okay, I missed this part. That is funny, because basically he was "military intelligence". Which is widely acknowledged as an oxymoron. No surprise therefore that he didn't know what the hell he was doing.

NSA is also military intelligence: No worries there.
In all fairness...

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby PeteP » Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:15 am UTC

rat4000 wrote:
KrytenKoro wrote:Quibbling about semantics is pretty damn irrelevant to my point, but fine, I'll reword: "trying to avoid preventable suffering and death of human beings".
Now at least the two things you're comparing ("ranking", if you will) are comparable.

Problem is, what you call an obvious truth still isn't. There's so much other stuff to consider. Do the people who die think they die with honor? Do they think honor is more important than life? (If you're about to say that honor can never be more important than life, that's cultural imperialism.) Do the people who suffer think it serves a purpose? ("Honor" again, maybe? And no, you don't get to objectively define suffering.) Does everyone involved believe that the suffering and death are preventable? (Or do they, for instance, believe that if this battle does not occur, the sun won't rise? Or that the battle is divinely ordained?)

It is really hard to make statements about cultures in the abstract.


I have a hard time figuring out how those questions are relevant to the civilians he killed. Most seems to only make sense from the perspective of the soldiers or at most allied civilians. Or are you just being pedantic? If so then yes I agree, people can die for their causes as much as they want.
But people can value their honor over their own lives all they want, over the lives of their victims not so much.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:06 am UTC

Old news but apparently, Leslie Nielson put a fart joke on his gravestone.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby addams » Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:30 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Old news but apparently, Leslie Nielson put a fart joke on his gravestone.

That was a funny man.
It only makes sense for his marker to be funny.

I think of calling him Shirley.
I think of calling him Frank.

I was told God called him.
I am glad you still remember him, too.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Steax » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:09 am UTC

George Zimmerman is trying to sell another painting (last one sold for $100,000)... And then the AP comes out and says he's stealing from one of their photos.

Image

Zimmerman's response:

On Twitter, George Zimmerman wrote Friday evening: "No worries AP, I'll just take whatever U sue me for off your tab when I'm done suing you :-) Or... I could put out how much U offered me 2.."
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Djehutynakht » Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:45 pm UTC

Oh Zimmerman, whether you prove guilty or innocent of your most infamous crime, you definitely prove guilty of tactlessness.

I'm wondering if this does indeed violate copyright (or if it should). Yeah, it's the APs photo.... but.. still... they get exclusive rights to that pose and particular look of the prosecutor.


Thoughts? I know copyright's something the comic (and the forum?) are known for. Unfortunately I think the argument could get tainted by peoples' opinions of his level of being a murderer or not.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby addams » Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:06 pm UTC

Djehutynakht wrote:Oh Zimmerman, whether you prove guilty or innocent of your most infamous crime, you definitely prove guilty of tactlessness.

I'm wondering if this does indeed violate copyright (or if it should). Yeah, it's the APs photo.... but.. still... they get exclusive rights to that pose and particular look of the prosecutor.


Thoughts? I know copyright's something the comic (and the forum?) are known for. Unfortunately I think the argument could get tainted by peoples' opinions of his level of being a murderer or not.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... y/4843775/

The AP floods our world with images.
Then the AP bitches each time we use one of those images?

That does not makes sense to me.
The HOPE poster is delightful art.

Zimmerman is staying in the news?
Who is doing his PR work?

He continues to exhibit and promote distain for both individual persons and the institutions of the US.
He not only gets away with it, he is rewarded for it. Only in America?
edit:
Spoiler:
Did you see the vagina?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Steax » Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:17 pm UTC

In addition, that quote is reportedly false. I wonder if that could be a legal matter too.

At this point I'm not gawking at his role in the shooting incident, but at how he's trying to turn it around to make himself a celebrity (who copies off other people's works and makes up quotes to sell art at huge prices, presumably for the effect of his supporters and not for the actual art value).
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