Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklahoma

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Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklahoma

Postby Scott5114 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:55 am UTC

From the Tulsa World.

McALESTER - Members of a Kansas church that protests at military funerals may have found themselves in the wrong town Saturday.

Shortly after finishing their protest at the funeral of Army Sgt. Jason James McCluskey of McAlester, a half-dozen protesters from Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, Kan., headed to their minivan, only to discover that its front and rear passenger-side tires had been slashed.

To make matters worse, as their minivan slowly hobbled away on two flat tires, with a McAlester police car following behind, the protesters were unable to find anyone in town who would repair their vehicle, according to police.

The minivan finally pulled over several blocks away in a shopping center parking lot, where AAA was called. A flatbed service truck arrived and loaded up the minivan. Assistant Police Chief Darrell Miller said the minivan was taken to Walmart for repairs.

Even before the protesters discovered their damaged tires, they faced off with a massive crowd of jeering and taunting counterprotesters at Third Street and Washington Avenue, two blocks from the First Baptist Church, where the soldier's funeral was held.

Miller estimated that crowd to number nearly 1,000 people, and they not only drowned out the Westboro protesters with jeers, but with raucous chants of "USA, USA."

A few motorcyclists interspersed among the crowd also revved up their engines to muffle the protests.

More than two dozen law-enforcement officers - state troopers, sheriff's deputies and city police - formed a security cordon around the Westboro protesters.

"We're here to protect everyone," Miller said.

Westboro members picket military funerals across the country, spreading their message that "God hates America" because it tolerates homosexuality.


Sometimes this state surprises me. It's bad that they got their tires slashed, but it's pretty neat that nobody in town would do business with them because of their views. Although I'm sure that it's more the "protesting funerals" thing than the "hating on gay people" that people found offensive...

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Aikanaro » Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:19 pm UTC

Sometimes, Chaotic-Good (or even CN) people really make my day :D
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Lostdreams » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:19 pm UTC

I am very pleased with the counter-protest and the amount of people that showed up to participate. Additionally, in my opinion, it's about time people put them in their place.

However, with that said:

I completely disagree with the tire slashing and the no service policy. This is exactly the style of intolerant move that propigates violent outbursts from people participating with these kind of events who were on the fence about taking a more direct action and adds points to martyrdom and the cause overall. If the roles were reversed and this was a LGBT organized protest where the tires were slashed and no service was offered the reaction would be a completely different tone.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Sharlos » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:49 pm UTC

Lostdreams wrote:I am very pleased with the counter-protest and the amount of people that showed up to participate. Additionally, in my opinion, it's about time people put them in their place.

However, with that said:

I completely disagree with the tire slashing and the no service policy. This is exactly the style of intolerant move that propigates violent outbursts from people participating with these kind of events who were on the fence about taking a more direct action and adds points to martyrdom and the cause overall. If the roles were reversed and this was a LGBT organized protest where the tires were slashed and no service was offered the reaction would be a completely different tone.

I agree about the tire slashing, but refusing service? A-OK. I have every right to refuse providing a service to someone spouting hateful nonsense.

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Roĝer » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:52 pm UTC

By the same reasoning, you could refuse service to anyone who happens to support another political party than you.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby SlyReaper » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:02 pm UTC

Roĝer wrote:By the same reasoning, you could refuse service to anyone who happens to support another political party than you.

Yes. So?
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Tirian » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:10 pm UTC

The problem is that WBC is still the lead in the news story. The story should be about the funeral of a brave American patriot that was well attended by thousands of local citizens and down at the bottom maybe you mention that there was a dozen kooks doing their own thing. If you have the space.

Like everyone else, I'm not a fan of using property damage as your method of expressing disagreement. (If for no other reason, the WBC is more a legal firm than a church and I fear they'll sue the all three police departments for not protecting their vehicle.) But I want to know more about the refusal of service before I come to a decision on that. The story doesn't go into much detail about how hard WBC looked for someone in town before deciding on a Wal-Mart. If it was an organized cartel of mechanics refusing emergency service, that starts to sound chilling, but if there is only one mechanic in town and his kid went to high school with Sgt. McCluskey then it's quite understandable.

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby 22/7 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:14 pm UTC

Lostdreams wrote:I am very pleased with the counter-protest and the amount of people that showed up to participate. Additionally, in my opinion, it's about time people put them in their place.

However, with that said:

I completely disagree with the tire slashing and the no service policy. This is exactly the style of intolerant move that propigates violent outbursts from people participating with these kind of events who were on the fence about taking a more direct action and adds points to martyrdom and the cause overall. If the roles were reversed and this was a LGBT organized protest where the tires were slashed and no service was offered the reaction would be a completely different tone.

Yes it would. We're offended by bigotry and the message, not by the fact that they were protesting. I don't think many people will disagree that it was shitty that their tires.got slashed, but refusing service is not only well within their rights as proprietors but an apt response to someone so bent on exercising their first amendment rights. Remember, the Constitution guarantees free speech, not consequence-free speech.
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I disagree. I don't care if it's the most well organized denial of service since the 1960s, I think it entirely appropriate for people to express their displeasure in this way. See the above about free speech.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby the penman » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:16 pm UTC

Roĝer wrote:By the same reasoning, you could refuse service to anyone who happens to support another political party than you.


Thus the beauty of engaging in extremely free-market private enterprise: You can refuse service to anyone, but refuse to sell to enough people and you don't make a profit. All hail Capitalism!

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby SlyReaper » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:17 pm UTC

Tirian wrote:The problem is that WBC is still the lead in the news story. The story should be about the funeral of a brave American patriot that was well attended by thousands of local citizens and down at the bottom maybe you mention that there was a dozen kooks doing their own thing. If you have the space.

Like everyone else, I'm not a fan of using property damage as your method of expressing disagreement. (If for no other reason, the WBC is more a legal firm than a church and I fear they'll sue the all three police departments for not protecting their vehicle.) But I want to know more about the refusal of service before I come to a decision on that. The story doesn't go into much detail about how hard WBC looked for someone in town before deciding on a Wal-Mart. If it was an organized cartel of mechanics refusing emergency service, that starts to sound chilling, but if there is only one mechanic in town and his kid went to high school with Sgt. McCluskey then it's quite understandable.


Wheel replacement is hardly an emergency service. Nobody's life was in danger, and even if it was, I can think of no situation where it would be the responsibility of a private business to sort it out. And the local car mechanics hardly have to be organised to share a loathing of WBC. A business owner can refuse to serve a customer for any reason.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Lostdreams » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:17 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:
Roĝer wrote:By the same reasoning, you could refuse service to anyone who happens to support another political party than you.

Yes. So?


Or for being black, gay, crustacean etc. It's the same type of thing minority groups have been fighting against for a long time, the roles are just reversed.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby SlyReaper » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:21 pm UTC

Lostdreams wrote:
SlyReaper wrote:
Roĝer wrote:By the same reasoning, you could refuse service to anyone who happens to support another political party than you.

Yes. So?


Or for being black, gay, crustacean etc. It's the same type of thing minority groups have been fighting against for a long time, the roles are just reversed.


If a business owner is bigoted enough to not want to serve blacks, gays, and Decapodians, he/she shouldn't be forced to. If you do force them to, they'll simply invent another reason not to serve them. Like was mentioned above, this is how capitalism works. Refuse to serve too many people, and your punishment is that you go out of business.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Stacy S. » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:23 pm UTC

Roĝer wrote:By the same reasoning, you could refuse service to anyone who happens to support another political party than you.


Ditto what SlyReaper asked. Typically, businesses can refuse service to anyone for any reason so long is it does not conflict with certain constitutional protected classes (federal and state). Race is one.

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Lostdreams » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:26 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:
Lostdreams wrote:
SlyReaper wrote:
Roĝer wrote:By the same reasoning, you could refuse service to anyone who happens to support another political party than you.

Yes. So?


Or for being black, gay, crustacean etc. It's the same type of thing minority groups have been fighting against for a long time, the roles are just reversed.


If a business owner is bigoted enough to not want to serve blacks, gays, and Decapodians, he/she shouldn't be forced to. If you do force them to, they'll simply invent another reason not to serve them. Like was mentioned above, this is how capitalism works. Refuse to serve too many people, and your punishment is that you go out of business.


Unless, of course, you service the majority.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Stacy S. » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:29 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:
Lostdreams wrote:
SlyReaper wrote:
Roĝer wrote:By the same reasoning, you could refuse service to anyone who happens to support another political party than you.

Yes. So?


Or for being black, gay, crustacean etc. It's the same type of thing minority groups have been fighting against for a long time, the roles are just reversed.


If a business owner is bigoted enough to not want to serve blacks, gays, and Decapodians, he/she shouldn't be forced to. If you do force them to, they'll simply invent another reason not to serve them. Like was mentioned above, this is how capitalism works. Refuse to serve too many people, and your punishment is that you go out of business.


Actually, if you do it based on one of the protected classes, then you are violating their civil rights and you can be sued.

Google denny's discrimination suit

Here, they didn't even refuse service. they just provided crappy service.

race, religion, nationality, gender are protected classes.

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Lostdreams » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:33 pm UTC

I believe this falls under "religious views" and would be applicable here.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:35 pm UTC

Yes, this is why the Ronpaul was misquoted in saying he felt the civil rights act needed to be amended or something.

Back OT; I can't say I really object to their tires being slashed. I view the WBC as very aggressively skirting the line of acceptable free speech, and while I don't condone violence or threats against them, something tells me they aren't exactly proponents of legal protest themselves.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby SummerGlauFan » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:37 pm UTC

Lostdreams wrote:I believe this falls under "religious views" and would be applicable here.


Not really. They were refused service because they are jerks, not because of any religious views.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Stacy S. » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:40 pm UTC

Lostdreams wrote:I believe this falls under "religious views" and would be applicable here.


What SummerGlauFan said

probably not. though they try. they'd have to convince a jury that the businesses discriminated against them based on their religion.

Baptist, as self-proclaimed.

That would be hard to do. Especially in OK.

But they might try. Probably will.

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby jestingrabbit » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:49 pm UTC

Seems that in America you have the right to refuse service to some but not others.

http://www.legalzoom.com/us-law/equal-r ... se-service

This is exactly the sort of thing that the WBC makes into money via lawsuits and allows them to continue their offensive idiocy. They should have been served imo.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Stacy S. » Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:37 pm UTC

jestingrabbit wrote:Seems that in America you have the right to refuse service to some but not others.

http://www.legalzoom.com/us-law/equal-r ... se-service

This is exactly the sort of thing that the WBC makes into money via lawsuits and allows them to continue their offensive idiocy. They should have been served imo.


I think if I were a business owner there, I would not serve them either. I might do it in a passive-aggressive manner though, just to protect myself. I'd suddenly be closed. My tire-changing machine might suddenly be on the fritz. I might have too much of a backlog. something.

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Dauric » Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:50 pm UTC

Anyone know how ... 'centralized', for lack of a better term, the Baptists are? I've heard the term "Baptist Convention", but it's attached to a lot of localities, I'm curious if these smaller sub-groups are independent entities or part of a larger organization.

I think -if the discrimination against a religion lawsuit was instigated- it would be an interesting defense if the merchant's assoc. in defending the local mechanic(s) asked for "Expert Testimony" from some of these Baptist organizations to say "Yeah, that protesting at funerals thing, not part of the religion."
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Stacy S. » Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:57 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:Anyone know how ... 'centralized', for lack of a better term, the Baptists are? I've heard the term "Baptist Convention", but it's attached to a lot of localities, I'm curious if these smaller sub-groups are independent entities or part of a larger organization.

I think -if the discrimination against a religion lawsuit was instigated- it would be an interesting defense if the merchant's assoc. in defending the local mechanic(s) asked for "Expert Testimony" from some of these Baptist organizations to say "Yeah, that protesting at funerals thing, not part of the religion."


Read the link jestingrabbit provided.

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby 22/7 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:09 pm UTC

I wonder if you could successfully argue that serving them could cause financial hardship. They're obviously a polarizing group...
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Arrian » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:13 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:I think -if the discrimination against a religion lawsuit was instigated- it would be an interesting defense if the merchant's assoc. in defending the local mechanic(s) asked for "Expert Testimony" from some of these Baptist organizations to say "Yeah, that protesting at funerals thing, not part of the religion."


Wouldn't fly. The courts do not determine what an official, standard, logical , consistent or whatever belief is, the only requirement is that a belief be held sincerely. There have been conscientious objector cases, for example, where the person's pastor testified that pacifism was not required by that religion but the court still upheld the objector's rights because what is religion for that specific person is what's protected.

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Rackum » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:13 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:Anyone know how ... 'centralized', for lack of a better term, the Baptists are? I've heard the term "Baptist Convention", but it's attached to a lot of localities, I'm curious if these smaller sub-groups are independent entities or part of a larger organization.

I think -if the discrimination against a religion lawsuit was instigated- it would be an interesting defense if the merchant's assoc. in defending the local mechanic(s) asked for "Expert Testimony" from some of these Baptist organizations to say "Yeah, that protesting at funerals thing, not part of the religion."

Westboro Baptist Church is an independent Baptist church; that means that although there are various Baptist Conventions (Georgia Baptist Convention, Southern Baptist Convention, etc) they belong to none of them. This is why they have such latitude in their extreme actions: they answer to no "governing body" of religious institutions. While, generally speaking, Baptist organizations are less strictly authoritative over the churches (members) of their convention than some denominations, they do have to approve the doctrinal teachings and general image of a church or they can remove them from the convention. That said, there is no way the WBC would attempt to use religious discrimination.

Additionally, there are specific cases that would serve the mechanics interest in this matter since it would not be difficult to claim or prove that refusal of service to these particular individuals was in the businesses best interest (and therefore not arbitrary) because of fear of backlash. Unfortunately, that defense could eventually open the door to less palatable situations being defended.

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Dauric » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:20 pm UTC

Rackum: That's what I was curious about, thanks for the info.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:34 pm UTC

Any number of Baptists I spoke to during my time in the military were appalled at what these idiots do. They are Baptist only because THEY say they are.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Tirian » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:48 pm UTC

Rackum wrote:Additionally, there are specific cases that would serve the mechanics interest in this matter since it would not be difficult to claim or prove that refusal of service to these particular individuals was in the businesses best interest (and therefore not arbitrary) because of fear of backlash. Unfortunately, that defense could eventually open the door to less palatable situations being defended.


I can't imagine that would fly well in a courtroom. The Unruh Civil Rights Act seems to be to be explicitly about denying businesses the right to uphold the moral standards of their community as they interpret it, so it's hard to see how a defense that they imagined that they'd profit as being the company that turned WBC away could be any more successful than, say, a Denny's claiming that they were trying to be the restaurant chain where you don't have to see black people in the next booth.

I fear that the bad news for the local tire place(s) is that they're going to get the opportunity to test their legal theories because this is exactly the crap that WBC hopes to stir when they come to your town. It's not donations or investments that puts gas in their minivan, it's out-of-court settlements.

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Dauric » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:55 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:Any number of Baptists I spoke to during my time in the military were appalled at what these idiots do.

This is really why I was asking for clarification. Being atheist/agnostic with some Wiccan tendencies, and thus highly unorganized when it comes to beliefs, I wasn't sure just how much say there was in any particular "tent" by the majority when an asshat minority does something stupid.

Otherwise and more on topic: I wouldn't say that I 'support' the tire-slashing, but I also wouldn't say that it's entirely unexpected.

Tirian wrote:I can't imagine that would fly well in a courtroom. The Unruh Civil Rights Act seems to be to be explicitly about denying businesses the right to uphold the moral standards of their community as they interpret it, so it's hard to see how a defense that they imagined that they'd profit as being the company that turned WBC away could be any more successful than, say, a Denny's claiming that they were trying to be the restaurant chain where you don't have to see black people in the next booth.

I fear that the bad news for the local tire place(s) is that they're going to get the opportunity to test their legal theories because this is exactly the crap that WBC hopes to stir when they come to your town. It's not donations or investments that puts gas in their minivan, it's out-of-court settlements.


Unruh is in California, this happened in Oklahoma. They might argue some sort of precedence based on it, but its unlikely to hold water outside of Ca.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Tirian » Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:02 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:Unruh is in California, this happened in Oklahoma. They might argue some sort of precedence based on it, but its unlikely to hold water outside of Ca.


Ah, my apologies, I thought that was federal law.

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:08 pm UTC

Again, I realize what kind of monster lurks beneath my skin. I'd rather they'd been quietly drowned. No muss. No fuss. Party at the funeral.

What stops similar things from happening to other "less distasteful" groups? Those groups don't thrive on a corrupt system. WBC only survives because they take advantage of a system that is designed to protect "good" people.

I'm glad I have self control.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Rackum » Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:15 pm UTC

Tirian wrote:
Rackum wrote:Additionally, there are specific cases that would serve the mechanics interest in this matter since it would not be difficult to claim or prove that refusal of service to these particular individuals was in the businesses best interest (and therefore not arbitrary) because of fear of backlash. Unfortunately, that defense could eventually open the door to less palatable situations being defended.


I can't imagine that would fly well in a courtroom. The Unruh Civil Rights Act seems to be to be explicitly about denying businesses the right to uphold the moral standards of their community as they interpret it, so it's hard to see how a defense that they imagined that they'd profit as being the company that turned WBC away could be any more successful than, say, a Denny's claiming that they were trying to be the restaurant chain where you don't have to see black people in the next booth.

I fear that the bad news for the local tire place(s) is that they're going to get the opportunity to test their legal theories because this is exactly the crap that WBC hopes to stir when they come to your town. It's not donations or investments that puts gas in their minivan, it's out-of-court settlements.

Some of the cases I was referring to from jesting's link (spoilered for length):
Spoiler:
In cases in which the patron is not a member of a federally protected class, the question generally turns on whether the business's refusal of service was arbitrary, or whether the business had a specific interest in refusing service. For example, in a recent case, a California court decided that a motorcycle club had no discrimination claim against a sports bar that had denied members admission to the bar because they refused to remove their "colors," or patches, which signified club membership. The court held that the refusal of service was not based on the club members' unconventional dress, but was to protect a legitimate business interest in preventing fights between rival club members.

In one more complicated case, a court held that a cemetery could exclude "punk rockers" from a private funeral service. A mother requested that the funeral service for her 17-year-old daughter be private and that admission to the service be limited to family and invited guests only. The cemetery failed to exclude punk rockers from the service. The punk rockers arrived in unconventional dress, wearing makeup and sporting various hair colors. One was wearing a dress decorated with live rats. Others wore leather and chains, some were twirling baton-like weapons, drinking, and using cocaine. The punk rockers made rude comments to family members and were generally disruptive of the service.

Ironically, the funeral business had attempted to rely on the Unruh Civil Rights Act, claiming that if they had denied access to the punk rockers, they would have been in violation of the Act. But the court held that the punk rockers' presence had deprived the deceased person's family of the services of the business establishment, which were meant to provide comfort to grieving family members. On that basis, the court stated that the funeral business could have legitimately denied access to the punk rockers.
Since this is a one time repair but they would be forced to continue doing business in a location where local sentiment was very much against those individuals needing service, it could be argued that providing said service would have seriously jeopardized future customer base. This argument actually works best if there are several providers of the service since a sole provider of the service pretty much necessitates that everyone will go to that provider regardless of their objections while if there are several providers each can claim a (not unrational) fear that customers would have changed who they do business with.

Oregonaut wrote:I'm glad I have self control.

I hope that I can exercise that level of self control if they ever find their way to my current location. We regularly honor fallen soldiers from the Army post here and I fear that it's only a matter of time until WBC decides to show up (especially since it is a very military town and would most likely net them a pretty profit given the inevitable reactions from the local Airmen and Soldiers).

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Dauric » Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:17 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:Again, I realize what kind of monster lurks beneath my skin. I'd rather they'd been quietly drowned. No muss. No fuss. Party at the funeral.

What stops similar things from happening to other "less distasteful" groups? Those groups don't thrive on a corrupt system. WBC only survives because they take advantage of a system that is designed to protect "good" people.

I'm glad I have self control.


In a similar vein to what I said about the tire slashing, while I'm not saying you should let slip the "Oregonauts of war", however If in a hypothetical future the WBC was protesting somewhere (especially at another veteran's funeral, perhaps pissing off some marine sniper...) and a shot rang out and suddenly Fred Felps's head were to explode, it's not like anyone should be surprised that it happened. Frankly I'm almost but not quite surprised that it hasn't happened already.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Chen » Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:44 pm UTC

Rackum wrote:Since this is a one time repair but they would be forced to continue doing business in a location where local sentiment was very much against those individuals needing service, it could be argued that providing said service would have seriously jeopardized future customer base. This argument actually works best if there are several providers of the service since a sole provider of the service pretty much necessitates that everyone will go to that provider regardless of their objections while if there are several providers each can claim a (not unrational) fear that customers would have changed who they do business with.


I'm pretty uncomfortable with allowing the biases of your customer base to suddenly start allowing you to discriminate against people. Would it be reasonable to stop giving haircuts to gay people if you felt it would alienate the local churches? Or what about not letting nerdy looking people in because you the cool people will stop shopping there (if you want an example that is based on some inherent characteristic).

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Triangle_Man » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:14 pm UTC

So the difficulty of this situation is that, despite the fact that the WBC are a bunch of tools, refusing to serve them could result set some unhealthy precidents?

In any case, I don't agree with the tire slashing, but the counterprotests where acceptable. Still, it must have been terrifying for the WBC protesters to suddenly find themselves in a situation like that; it could've become a riot or something.

Of course, if they really only protest when people are around to watch (as someone else mentioned), one must wonder if they are truely crazy or putting on an act to get people's attention?

Probably a combination of the two.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby SlyReaper » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:24 pm UTC

Triangle_Man wrote:So the difficulty of this situation is that, despite the fact that the WBC are a bunch of tools, refusing to serve them could result set some unhealthy precidents?


No. As has been said, religion had nothing to do with why the local businesses refused to cater for them. I think most judges and juries would recognise any attempt to argue that it was because of religion, as bullshit.

Triangle_Man wrote:In any case, I don't agree with the tire slashing, but the counterprotests where acceptable. Still, it must have been terrifying for the WBC protesters to suddenly find themselves in a situation like that; it could've become a riot or something.


Excuse me while I induce my pet crocodile to produce tears.

Triangle_Man wrote:Of course, if they really only protest when people are around to watch (as someone else mentioned), one must wonder if they are truely crazy or putting on an act to get people's attention?

Probably a combination of the two.


Yes, probably a combination of the two but weighted more towards the latter. They seem to have a business model of provoking people into doing illegal things against them, then taking them to the cleaners.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:35 pm UTC

They are many lawyers, and the rest "religious" folk.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Lostdreams » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:48 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:
Oregonaut wrote:Again, I realize what kind of monster lurks beneath my skin. I'd rather they'd been quietly drowned. No muss. No fuss. Party at the funeral.

What stops similar things from happening to other "less distasteful" groups? Those groups don't thrive on a corrupt system. WBC only survives because they take advantage of a system that is designed to protect "good" people.

I'm glad I have self control.


In a similar vein to what I said about the tire slashing, while I'm not saying you should let slip the "Oregonauts of war", however If in a hypothetical future the WBC was protesting somewhere (especially at another veteran's funeral, perhaps pissing off some marine sniper...) and a shot rang out and suddenly Fred Felps's head were to explode, it's not like anyone should be surprised that it happened. Frankly I'm almost but not quite surprised that it hasn't happened already.


When it does the LGBT military should protest at his funeral. :twisted:
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church runs into difficulties in Oklaho

Postby Triangle_Man » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:34 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:
Triangle_Man wrote:In any case, I don't agree with the tire slashing, but the counterprotests where acceptable. Still, it must have been terrifying for the WBC protesters to suddenly find themselves in a situation like that; it could've become a riot or something.


Excuse me while I induce my pet crocodile to produce tears.



Ah...I forgot about the part where they were a bunch of tools.

Sometimes I try to be nuetral when I shouldn't be.
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