"Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancellor

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

PeterCai
Posts: 865
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:09 pm UTC

"Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancellor

Postby PeterCai » Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:43 am UTC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a73vlvya ... re=related

seems like more xenophobia from europe.

User avatar
Sartorius
Posts: 506
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:21 am UTC
Location: Oh? Hi! Oh.

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby Sartorius » Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:07 am UTC

This reminds me of when my German ancestors moved to the U.S. after WWI. Teachers went to their house and told them they must speak English and only English in the house, so that their children will learn English faster. It was very much a "This is America, you must speak English" sort of thing.

I understand countries using their language as means of cultural identity, but I can't help but feel that I lost a lot of my familial identity, or at least the chance to have a bilingual grandfather. Perhaps Germany and other European countries are feeling a greater pressure to maintain their culture due to the predominance of English, but that doesn't seem to be what they are talking about here. Mostly it seems like racism against the Turkish, which is way sad because I love döners. :/
"Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." -Terry Pratchett

User avatar
Jahoclave
sourmilk's moderator
Posts: 4790
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:34 pm UTC
Contact:

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby Jahoclave » Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:50 am UTC

Wow, it's like German cultural attitudes and legal status towards Turkish immigrants in no way contributed to the problem at all...


Edit: well, I shouldn't really say immigrants, seeing as a large amount of them have never even been to Turkey and have lived their entire lives in Germany, they just don't have a path to legal citizenship.

johnny_7713
Posts: 555
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:31 pm UTC

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby johnny_7713 » Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am UTC

Jahoclave wrote:Wow, it's like German cultural attitudes and legal status towards Turkish immigrants in no way contributed to the problem at all...


Edit: well, I shouldn't really say immigrants, seeing as a large amount of them have never even been to Turkey and have lived their entire lives in Germany, they just don't have a path to legal citizenship.


If the situation in Germany is anything like that in the Netherlands the Turkish immigrants and certainly their children probably do have German citizenship.

The problem is that in practice the 'multicultural approach' is often better described as: ignore the fact that immigrants have no participation in the 'native' society or culture.
These immigrants were originally invited to come to Europe in the 60ies, under the impression that most would leave after a few years, so no one cared that they didn't speak the language or integrate into society much beyond working in the factory. When it became clear that they weren't going to leave, no one took action to integrate them into society. As a result there are now large communities of immigrants and their descendants who either don't speak the native language (especially the wives of the 1st generation migrant workers) or who only speak it poorly. This severely limits their ability to participate in society, leading to low socio-economic status (obviously discrimination / xenophobia also plays a part). There is also the problem of immigrants' traditional views of e.g. the rights of women, gays and Jews clashing with the Western values.
The multicultural approach is good in theory and I agree with it as an ideal: respect the fact that the immigrants have a different culture and don't force them to give it up. In practice however it turned into: ignore the problems of integrating immigrants into society because it would be wrong to change their culture. Saying that this approach is wrong does not make one into a xenophobe.
As someone who was raised bilingually (English at home, Dutch everywhere else); 'This is America, you must speak English' is in my view wrong, 'This is America, you must be able to speak English' however is perfectly reasonable.

*bird
Posts: 136
Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 6:14 pm UTC

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby *bird » Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:39 pm UTC

Chancellor Merkel has two statements in here that aren't exactly the same: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" and "descendants of guest workers (and I presume she's talking about the Turkish) should learn German".

The first one isn't borne out by the facts, mostly because I don't think the Germans didn't really implement multiculturalism (someone more familiar with the history of this may correct me). Ignoring a portion of your population and leaving them to their own devices doesn't really count. For an example of a country that actually puts effort (and money) into multiculturalism, look at Canada.

Learning German in Germany, however, is a decent idea, if people actually get support. Again, there needs to be effort put into it - pretty speeches can get applause but if there aren't things like GSL programs then you aren't really going to help that population. Also, accept that older people have a hard time learning a new language.

If the situation in Germany is anything like that in the Netherlands the Turkish immigrants and certainly their children probably do have German citizenship.

johnny_7713 wrote:If the situation in Germany is anything like that in the Netherlands the Turkish immigrants and certainly their children probably do have German citizenship.


The Dutch situation, is, well...

http://www.racialicious.com/2010/10/01/understanding-autochtoon-privilege/

They don't even try to integrate the people who don't look like them (at least according to the author of the blog post), instead treating them like foreigners in their own country. This does not bode well if Germany tries to follow the same model.

paulisa
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:02 am UTC

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby paulisa » Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:20 pm UTC

Part of the problem with the language is kind of self-inflicted though. Some of these second/third generation ex-turkish families still adhere to a very negative view of women, but pre-school and primary education is mostly done by women. So if a female teacher calls the parents in to school because their son is disruptive and refusing to learn, they often hear "my son doesn't have to listen to anything a woman says." That's just bad attitude towards teachers and education in general.

Another problem is arranged marriages. The boys get a "real turkish woman" from "back home" who doesn't speak a word of german and is not allowed to learn. Such a woman of course can't help her children in school. Often she needs her children to go with her to an administrative office or even to the shops because they need to translate for her. There are german-courses for such people but few attend them.

The main problem of course is a legacy of the initial plan. Germany and other countries needed uneducated, unkilled people who were prepared to work for less than the germans. They intended for these people to got back after 10 years or so, so it was logical not to teach them much german. It was not intended for these "guest workers" as they were called to send back for their parents, their children if they had them or a bride if they didn't, and generally have as little as possible to do with the germans.
The "usual pattern" for a family is that the children get a little more education than the parents, or a little more prestigious job; that cycle is totally broken if one of the parents of every generation is the turkish equivalent of a bumpkin.
The smallest unit of time in the multiverse is the New-York-Second, defined as the period of time passing between the traffic light turning green and the cab behind you honking. - Terry Pratchett, Lords and Ladies

johnny_7713
Posts: 555
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:31 pm UTC

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby johnny_7713 » Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:00 pm UTC

*bird wrote:
johnny_7713 wrote:If the situation in Germany is anything like that in the Netherlands the Turkish immigrants and certainly their children probably do have German citizenship.


The Dutch situation, is, well...

http://www.racialicious.com/2010/10/01/understanding-autochtoon-privilege/

They don't even try to integrate the people who don't look like them (at least according to the author of the blog post), instead treating them like foreigners in their own country. This does not bode well if Germany tries to follow the same model.


I was referring specifically to the question of whether the immigrants had German citizenship or not.

The article you linked to seems to be a fair portrayal of the Dutch situation (which is reasonably similar to the German situation as far as I can tell), although there were a few points I disagreed with / felt could do with a bit more nuance, particularly the footnotes. Also some points mentioned also count for autochtoon people (particularly those concerning religion, those go for autochtoon converts just as much as for allochtoon). I should also point out that while allochtoon and 'non-western' allochtoon are legally defined catagories there is no legal discrimination based on these terms (societal discrimination is a different matter unfortunately). Also the author's experiences regarding ethnic registration (e.g. when applying for a job, visiting a doctor, etc) don't match my own, but maybe that's because I have the privilege of being a white allochtoon (even if technically a non-western one).

As paulisa has pointed out a important part of the reason immigrants were treated as foreigners, is because for a long time they were, and they were expected to go back after several years. Once it became clear that were here to stay little was done to encourage them to integrate into 'native' society.

Zauderer
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:47 pm UTC

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby Zauderer » Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:52 pm UTC

Jahoclave wrote:Edit: well, I shouldn't really say immigrants, seeing as a large amount of them have never even been to Turkey and have lived their entire lives in Germany, they just don't have a path to legal citizenship.


Any permanent resident who's lived legally for at least eight years in Germany without committing a crime, being a member of an extremist organization, or willfully collecting public benefits has a right to German citizenship, if they can demonstrate a reasonable knowledge of German language, culture and politics. Also, a child born in Germany since 2000 automatically obtains German citizenship if at least one of his parents meets the residence requirements.

User avatar
LaserGuy
Posts: 4585
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:33 pm UTC

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:24 pm UTC

Before we can establish whether or not multiculturalism has "utterly failed" in Germany, it would seem to me that it would be necessary to define on what criteria, exactly, the success of a multicultural country should be judged. What would a perfect multicultural society look like? Does it even make sense to talk about a "nation" if there is no shared beliefs, language, or heritage between its members? Is such a thing even desirable?

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10546
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:23 pm UTC

Perhaps the definition of "success" in a mutli-ethnic/cultural society can be measured by incomes, incarceration rates, education levels, and so forth, between different ethnic/cultural groups. When the differences are statistically indistinguishable, then there is "success".

For example, the huge differences between Afro-American and Caucasian in the US are an example of something on the lines of "needs improvement". Though oddly, Black African immigrants are a model minority; one is even a President.

G.v.K
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:09 pm UTC
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby G.v.K » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:30 pm UTC

Sounds like a typical fluffy politician's 'law and order' speech to me. Is there an election coming up in Germany?

Germany is an ageing country. Hence a sizeable proportion of the voting block (old people with 'traditional' values) will want to hear this message. Maybe there's a lot of the older guest workers who still can't speak German. But by now a couple of generations of their descendants will speak it fluently, so what's the problem exactly?

*bird
Posts: 136
Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 6:14 pm UTC

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby *bird » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:47 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Perhaps the definition of "success" in a mutli-ethnic/cultural society can be measured by incomes, incarceration rates, education levels, and so forth, between different ethnic/cultural groups. When the differences are statistically indistinguishable, then there is "success".

For example, the huge differences between Afro-American and Caucasian in the US are an example of something on the lines of "needs improvement". Though oddly, Black African immigrants are a model minority; one is even a President.


Why is it odd? By definition, immigrants are a self-selecting group; unless they are refugees, they tend to be either wealthy or willful enough to immigrate, thus they'll value hard work and monetary success.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10546
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:25 am UTC

*bird wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Perhaps the definition of "success" in a mutli-ethnic/cultural society can be measured by incomes, incarceration rates, education levels, and so forth, between different ethnic/cultural groups. When the differences are statistically indistinguishable, then there is "success".

For example, the huge differences between Afro-American and Caucasian in the US are an example of something on the lines of "needs improvement". Though oddly, Black African immigrants are a model minority; one is even a President.


Why is it odd? By definition, immigrants are a self-selecting group; unless they are refugees, they tend to be either wealthy or willful enough to immigrate, thus they'll value hard work and monetary success.


Because they beat out all other groups, even immigrant Asians and Europeans, not just the native (sort of) population.

User avatar
LaserGuy
Posts: 4585
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:33 pm UTC

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:58 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Perhaps the definition of "success" in a mutli-ethnic/cultural society can be measured by incomes, incarceration rates, education levels, and so forth, between different ethnic/cultural groups. When the differences are statistically indistinguishable, then there is "success".

For example, the huge differences between Afro-American and Caucasian in the US are an example of something on the lines of "needs improvement". Though oddly, Black African immigrants are a model minority; one is even a President.


Those aren't "cultural" outcomes though are they? You could just as easily achieve the same result by assimilation. Or, rather trivially, in a monoculture.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10546
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:32 am UTC

Well, true, a monoculture would also have the same income levels between the one culture, but a "successful" multicultural society would have the same income/whatever between the multiple cultures.

Honestly, I'm more concerned about social mobility than I am with 'social justice', whatever that term means these days. I don't really care that there is poverty in the world, so long as with hard work and determination, the poor can become working class (and up), and without any talents or motivation, the rich will become poor.

johnny_7713
Posts: 555
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:31 pm UTC

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby johnny_7713 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:47 am UTC

G.v.K wrote:Sounds like a typical fluffy politician's 'law and order' speech to me. Is there an election coming up in Germany?

Germany is an ageing country. Hence a sizeable proportion of the voting block (old people with 'traditional' values) will want to hear this message. Maybe there's a lot of the older guest workers who still can't speak German. But by now a couple of generations of their descendants will speak it fluently, so what's the problem exactly?


The problem is that in many cases the descendants do not in fact speak the language fluently (though usually better than their parents), which is exacerbated by things like importing brides from 'back home'. There is also the fact that most of said descendants do not consider themselves German (or Dutch or whatever), but rather Turkish, or at least semi-Turkish (or Moroccan or whatever). There is also a (perceived?) lack of acceptance of certain 'Western' values such as equality of men and women, and acceptance of gays and Jews. The previous contains a lot of stereotyping and generalisations, but it does give an idea of what the problem is. Basically the multi-cultural approach has led to the formation of a minority that is not accepted as, and often does not wish to be, a part of the larger society. This is certainly not solely, or even largely, the immigrants' fault, e.g. a newspaper referring to someone who has lived here all his life as a Turk will not exactly make her feel at home. However saying that the multicultural approach, at least in the form implemented in Germany (and Holland) over the past decades has not produced a desirable outcome and thus a new approach (or implementation) is needed, is not in my view wrong.

Regarding the definition of a successfull multicultural society:
The most important point is that the (descendants of) immigrants can consider themselves a part of society, and are accepted as such, without having to give up their cultural identity.

Example:
'I am a German Muslim, my parents came here from Turkey' would be good. Of course a key point is that other Germans should now accept the speaker as a German, even if he does not give up his religion and speaks Turkish at home.
'I am a Turk who happens to live in Germany, because I was born here' would be bad.

PeterCai
Posts: 865
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:09 pm UTC

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby PeterCai » Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:26 am UTC

the big hypocrisy here is that she claimed the multiculturalism approach to have failed, as if there ever was an approach. there was never any real plans or initiatives. multiculturalism isn't magic. you don't get a multicultural society by ignoring the minority. i mean, geez, they seem pretty happy about the cheap labour force that don't complain until now. all of a sudden, just because it's convenient, the immigrants are to blame? fuck this shit.

johnny_7713
Posts: 555
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:31 pm UTC

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby johnny_7713 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:30 pm UTC

PeterCai wrote:the big hypocrisy here is that she claimed the multiculturalism approach to have failed, as if there ever was an approach. there was never any real plans or initiatives. multiculturalism isn't magic. you don't get a multicultural society by ignoring the minority. i mean, geez, they seem pretty happy about the cheap labour force that don't complain until now. all of a sudden, just because it's convenient, the immigrants are to blame? fuck this shit.


Well, said lack of plans or initiatives is what is usually called the multicultural approach here (certainly by its opponents). Under the (Dutch/German) multicultural approach any policy targeted specifically at immigrants would entail discrimination and thus be wrong. The same goes for any interference in the immigrants' culture. Forcing / encouraging them to become more Dutch / German would be wrong. End result was ignoring of the immigrants and the problems caused by their poor integration into society. Or so its commonly claimed in the media nowadays, too young to have really experienced it myself.

User avatar
Habz
Posts: 131
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:55 am UTC

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby Habz » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:47 pm UTC

Just a thought that occurred to me...
johnny_7713 wrote:Regarding the definition of a successfull multicultural society:
The most important point is that the (descendants of) immigrants can consider themselves a part of society, and are accepted as such, without having to give up their cultural identity.

Depending on the culture, is that always possible though? I'd say multi-cultural society where everyone can live according to their own cultural norms can function only to a certain point before becoming dysfunctional.
Paulisa gave an example earlier:
Paulisa wrote:Some of these second/third generation ex-turkish families still adhere to a very negative view of women, but pre-school and primary education is mostly done by women. So if a female teacher calls the parents in to school because their son is disruptive and refusing to learn, they often hear "my son doesn't have to listen to anything a woman says."

It's obvious that someone has to give a leeway there.

Anyway, the whole immigrant-thingy is now on the spotlight everywhere in Europe. Merkell seems to want a piece of the populist pie here... Not saying that she's entirely wrong though.

User avatar
Diadem
Posts: 5654
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:03 am UTC
Location: The Netherlands

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby Diadem » Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:52 pm UTC

I think it is hard for non-Western-Europeans to understand this statement. Her statement is not a statement about immigrants, it's not even a statement about culture. Multi-culturalism is a Western-European ideal that goes far beyond the literal meaning of the word. It's a policy, a approach to immigration that has dictated our politics for about 5 decades. And now, more and more people in Western-Europe look around their country and realize that something, somewhere, has gone terribly wrong.

Criticism on multiculturalism has always been incredibly politically incorrect. Especially in the left wing, but really all across the spectrum. Multiculturalism was advocated with religious zeal by many groups, and people who disagreed were considered nazis (literally). Of course it didn't help that many of them were, in fact, neo-nazis. But every form of criticism was considered racist, even mild and rational criticism of the form 'hey, perhaps this is not the best approach'. The zeitgeist is now slowly changing, but it is a change that is leading to extremely heated political debate, and sometimes gets violent. In the last 10 years, criticism of multiculturalism has slowly become more accepted. But this is (to my knowledge) the first time a main-stream politician rejects the entire concept out loud. That is pretty huge.

But what is multiculturalism? It is basically the ideal of different cultural groups living together in harmony. And that sounds great. If you accept that all people are equal, and reject nationalism (as Western-Europe has done, strongly, after WWII), then multiculturalism seems to logically follow. But the problem is that we've never really taken the time to think about what culture means. Time and time again I've heard people point out that there's absolutely no problem if in the same street one family celebrates christmas while the neighbours celebrate Hanukkah and the other neighbours celebrate Eid ul-Fitr. And indeed there isn't. And mixing these different customs can be very nice. This is most obvious when it comes to cuisines, but it's true for many aspects of society. Foreign culture can indeed enrich our lives.

But culture is more than specific holidays and local food.

In The Netherlands, raising kids is a very private matter. You don't involve yourself in that as a stranger. Someone's kids have to misbehave pretty terribly before you'd say something about it, and even then you'd approach the parent, not the kid. In rural Morocco by contrast raising kids is much more a public matter. Neighbours can correct kids if they misbehave, and that's entirely normal and in fact expected. Everybody looks out for everbody's kids. So what happens if you put those two cultures together? Well, welcome to immigrant neighbourhoods in The Netherlands. Throngs of young kids walking around the street aimlessly late in the evening. The parents have no idea where their kids are or what they are doing, and noone else cares. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to see that this leads to crime and other problems. And indeed it does. In this case, neither culture is obviously better than the other. But they are incompatible. These two cultures can't coexist in the same place. It doesn't work.

This problem is even more strongly present when it comes to things like attitude towards women and homosexuals. Most of the immigrants in Western-Europe come from Islamic countries, and what's more they come from the poorer, rural, usually more conservative, areas of these countries. This obviously clashes with modern western culture. And this is also were multiculturalism starts becoming delusional. These people simply can not be a succesful part of our society without changing those aspects of their culture. It's not possible. It leads to massive problems. Multiculturalism is great, but only up to a point. You can learn and benefit a lot from foreign cultures, but for cultures to succesfully live together, they need to be compatible. They need the same basic outlook on things like human rights, civil liberty and that kind of thing. You can live together in harmony with your neighbours if they celebrate Eid ul-Fitr while you celebrate christmas. But you can not live together in harmony with him if you are gay and he thinks gays should be thrown of the highest tower.

This is a huge problem with multiculturalism. And in Western-Europe, for the past 50 years or so, many of the advocates of multiculturalism have not recognized this problem. They have in fact denied it flat out, and prosecuted (again, literally) people who pointed it out. They made a religion out of the idea of multiculturalism.

And that's why the Chancellor of Germany publically stating that multiculturalism has utterly failed is a rather big thing.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

G.v.K
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:09 pm UTC
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby G.v.K » Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:10 pm UTC

johnny_7713 wrote:
G.v.K wrote:Sounds like a typical fluffy politician's 'law and order' speech to me. Is there an election coming up in Germany?

Germany is an ageing country. Hence a sizeable proportion of the voting block (old people with 'traditional' values) will want to hear this message. Maybe there's a lot of the older guest workers who still can't speak German. But by now a couple of generations of their descendants will speak it fluently, so what's the problem exactly?


The problem is that in many cases the descendants do not in fact speak the language fluently (though usually better than their parents), which is exacerbated by things like importing brides from 'back home'. There is also the fact that most of said descendants do not consider themselves German (or Dutch or whatever), but rather Turkish, or at least semi-Turkish (or Moroccan or whatever). There is also a (perceived?) lack of acceptance of certain 'Western' values such as equality of men and women, and acceptance of gays and Jews. The previous contains a lot of stereotyping and generalisations, but it does give an idea of what the problem is. Basically the multi-cultural approach has led to the formation of a minority that is not accepted as, and often does not wish to be, a part of the larger society. This is certainly not solely, or even largely, the immigrants' fault, e.g. a newspaper referring to someone who has lived here all his life as a Turk will not exactly make her feel at home. However saying that the multicultural approach, at least in the form implemented in Germany (and Holland) over the past decades has not produced a desirable outcome and thus a new approach (or implementation) is needed, is not in my view wrong.

Regarding the definition of a successfull multicultural society:
The most important point is that the (descendants of) immigrants can consider themselves a part of society, and are accepted as such, without having to give up their cultural identity.

Example:
'I am a German Muslim, my parents came here from Turkey' would be good. Of course a key point is that other Germans should now accept the speaker as a German, even if he does not give up his religion and speaks Turkish at home.
'I am a Turk who happens to live in Germany, because I was born here' would be bad.


i think you hit the nail on the head in saying that not even the descendants think of themselves as 'German'. that's the failure of the German 'multikulti' experiment. fairly obvious in hindsight given that nobody expected these people even to become German anyway.

the Germans should come and have a look at Australia or Canada as examples of how to do it well. even then, it's still not without problems. but how exactly does Merkel plan to unscramble the egg? that's why i say it's all fluffy talk until there's a real plan of action.

User avatar
Jahoclave
sourmilk's moderator
Posts: 4790
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:34 pm UTC
Contact:

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby Jahoclave » Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:33 am UTC

Zauderer wrote:Also, a child born in Germany since 2000 automatically obtains German citizenship if at least one of his parents meets the residence requirements.

Ah, so they did change that then. That's good to know.

paulisa
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:02 am UTC

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby paulisa » Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:25 am UTC

G.v.K wrote:the Germans should come and have a look at Australia or Canada as examples of how to do it well. even then, it's still not without problems. but how exactly does Merkel plan to unscramble the egg? that's why i say it's all fluffy talk until there's a real plan of action.


The problem is, people who migrate to Australia or Canada and are allowed to under their rules are not the type of people who would move to Germany. English is taught as a second language pretty much everywhere, so if you've finished university chances are you'll get by in english-speaking countries. You'll get a job quickly or have one before you arrive, gat a place to live, go out in the evenings, support "culture" such as theaters and art exhibitions... But going to Germany would be way harder. Yes, it's possible to get by speaking only english. If you look "rich" most people treat you kinda respectfully, but there's such a lot you can't take part in without speaking German. And if you only intend to stay there for the X years of your contract, why bother learning? The english-speaking world is just that much larger and has more opportinities for well-educated people.
The smallest unit of time in the multiverse is the New-York-Second, defined as the period of time passing between the traffic light turning green and the cab behind you honking. - Terry Pratchett, Lords and Ladies

johnny_7713
Posts: 555
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:31 pm UTC

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby johnny_7713 » Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:25 am UTC

paulisa wrote:
G.v.K wrote:the Germans should come and have a look at Australia or Canada as examples of how to do it well. even then, it's still not without problems. but how exactly does Merkel plan to unscramble the egg? that's why i say it's all fluffy talk until there's a real plan of action.


The problem is, people who migrate to Australia or Canada and are allowed to under their rules are not the type of people who would move to Germany. English is taught as a second language pretty much everywhere, so if you've finished university chances are you'll get by in english-speaking countries. You'll get a job quickly or have one before you arrive, gat a place to live, go out in the evenings, support "culture" such as theaters and art exhibitions... But going to Germany would be way harder. Yes, it's possible to get by speaking only english. If you look "rich" most people treat you kinda respectfully, but there's such a lot you can't take part in without speaking German. And if you only intend to stay there for the X years of your contract, why bother learning? The english-speaking world is just that much larger and has more opportinities for well-educated people.


Another significant difference is that AFAIK most immigrants in Australia and Canada went / go there to start a new life (certainly true for e.g. the Dutch farmers who went there in the 50ies), with the expectation that they would / will be living there for the rest of their lives. The Turks and Moroccans who form the largest immigrant groups in the Netherlands however were initially invited over on the assumption that they would go back home after several years (and that they would leave their family at home while they were here).

User avatar
Arancaytar
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:54 am UTC
Location: 52.44°N, 13.55°E
Contact:

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby Arancaytar » Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:19 pm UTC

Jahoclave wrote:Wow, it's like German cultural attitudes and legal status towards Turkish immigrants in no way contributed to the problem at all...


Edit: well, I shouldn't really say immigrants, seeing as a large amount of them have never even been to Turkey and have lived their entire lives in Germany, they just don't have a path to legal citizenship.


Birthright citizenship has been introduced in Germany too, retroactively since 1990. I read that it is conditional on application, and renouncing other nationalities, however.

In any case, the chancellor's statement, like most such statements by German conservatives, has less to do with immigration law than it would in the US debate, and more with naturalization and culture conflicts. The extreme nationalist right wants to expel immigrants; the conservatives in power mostly want to force (or "strongly encourage") them to assimilate.
"You cannot dual-wield the sharks. One is enough." -Our DM.
Image

User avatar
aleflamedyud
wants your cookies
Posts: 3307
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:50 pm UTC
Location: The Central Bureaucracy

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:16 am UTC

Oh, Europe, where the notion that immigrants should assimilate makes you a right-wing nationalist conservative borderline racist. You poor bastards.
"With kindness comes naïveté. Courage becomes foolhardiness. And dedication has no reward. If you can't accept any of that, you are not fit to be a graduate student."

tussock
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:52 am UTC

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby tussock » Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:26 pm UTC

And now, more and more people in Western-Europe look around their country and realize that something, somewhere, has gone terribly wrong.


What, that a bunch of human beings are busy being different while brown? cuss-filters! Teh sky, she iz fallen. If only there was some sort of "work camp" where a government could "concentrate" these others for their own benefit, where they could be taught to act like people. Perhaps that would suffice until the "ultimate solution" to the ongoing crisis can be discovered.

/Godwin.

Sharlos
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:26 am UTC
Location: Straya

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby Sharlos » Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:53 pm UTC

tussock wrote:
And now, more and more people in Western-Europe look around their country and realize that something, somewhere, has gone terribly wrong.


What, that a bunch of human beings are busy being different while brown? cuss-filters! Teh sky, she iz fallen. If only there was some sort of "work camp" where a government could "concentrate" these others for their own benefit, where they could be taught to act like people. Perhaps that would suffice until the "ultimate solution" to the ongoing crisis can be discovered.

/Godwin.

I know you aren't being serious, but even jokingly I don't think your comments add anything to the discussion.

I also think having a section of your country's population unable to communicate or relate to the rest of your country can be a bad thing.

edit: because what I meant and what I said were two different things.

User avatar
Jave D
chavey-dee
Posts: 1042
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:41 pm UTC

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby Jave D » Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:15 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:Oh, Europe, where the notion that immigrants should assimilate makes you a right-wing nationalist conservative borderline racist. You poor bastards.


It's all about what exactly one means by this oft-loaded notion of "assimilation." In Switzerland for example, it seems to mean that Muslims shouldn't have places of worship and if they do, they ought to look less Muslimy.

Mittagessen
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:21 am UTC

Re: "Multiculturalism has utterly failed" - Germany Chancell

Postby Mittagessen » Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:45 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:Oh, Europe, where the notion that immigrants should assimilate makes you a right-wing nationalist conservative borderline racist. You poor bastards.


Oh, Europe, where the most right-wing mainstream parties are to the left of anything the US political spectrum has to offer. Seriously, demanding complete and utter assimilation makes you a far right-wing, neo-nazi type wacko over here. Even one of the most racist, anti-semitic, "mainstream" populists in Germany, Thilo Sarrazin doesn't go as far as to demand that all immigrants should become part of German Leitkultur. The current coalition government, as much as I hate them, doesn't seem to want to restrict religious freedom for any group of immigrants. The main reason starting this debate is economic and social equality. While in many circles this discussion is about getting more immigrants to graduate high school or finding ways to decrease youth criminality, more populist politicians use this to spread a message of "all arabs/muslims are stupid criminals which we have enough of already." So the current debate is less about assimilation than integration (learning the language, graduate from school, accept the Grundgesetz as the supreme law of the land etc.) vs. a full immigration stop for certain peoples (although even the more radical elements of the CDU/CSU don't deem that a realistic choice).


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Sableagle and 19 guests