UK Politician officially changing gender

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UK Politician officially changing gender

Postby Plasma Man » Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:29 pm UTC

One of the candidates for my local council has announced that they are going to officially become female (full text in spoiler).
Spoiler:
ONE of the candidates fighting in next year’s elections for Northampton Borough Council is hoping to become the town’s first transgender politician and will fight for people’s votes only four months after officially becoming a woman.

Duston resident Julia Maddison, aged 45, was born Rob but realised she wanted to be a woman from an early age.

She has been chosen by the Liberal Democrats as their candidate for the St James ward in next May’s local elections, a decision she admitted would raise eyebrows among some voters.

She said: “Clearly there will be people who will not want to vote for me because of who I am, not because of what party I’m standing for or any other political reasons.

“But I think the best way to combat that is just to talk to people and show through my actions that I’m just as good as any other person who will be standing for the council.”

Julia will go through the legal process of becoming a woman at the start of January, but she has not yet decided if she wants to undergo the operation needed to fully change sex.

That decision will only be made after going through the ‘real life experience’ of living as a woman for more than a year, a time which will include her election campaign.

She said: “I haven’t made my mind up yet whether I’ll have the operation, but I have decided to do everything in the run up to the election in the female gender.

“I’m not going to hide, but I also can’t hide 45 years of my history, and I’m not going to try.”

The decision means the name St James residents will see on the ballot paper when they vote in May next year will be Julia Maddison and all of the Liberal Democrats’ election literature will feature pictures of Julia as a woman.

She said: “I think a few years ago this would have been a bigger issue for people than it is now.

“These days, I think people will react well to somebody who can get the job done and works hard, and that’s what I want to do.

“And whenever I go into Northampton town centre, people generally don’t bat an eyelid. I suppose that’s because, although I’m 5ft 11in, I do pass as a woman. I look good enough to blend in.”

The first time Julia tried on women’s clothes was when she was 12 years old, although she did not ‘come out’ as transgender for another 21 years.

She said: “When I was little, we used to watch the big Hollywood musicals and I always wanted to be the leading lady rather than the leading man.

“I always looked at the dresses rather than the tough guys. It went from there to when I was 12 and I put some women’s clothes on, and it just felt right.

“But it’s only in the last few years that I’ve been Julia 70 per cent of the time, and I feel a lot more comfortable in that role.

“When I have to go to the office in a shirt and tie it’s something I don’t really want to do.”

Discussing her choice of name, Julia says she picked it rather than the more predictable Roberta as she had always liked it and ‘hated Roberta’.

She said: “It’s a name I’ve liked for a while, and by complete coincidence, it was also the name of my first wig.

“But it’s nice to be able to choose your own name. I’ve also picked the middle name Lynne, because that’s what my mum has said she would have called me if I’d been born a girl.”

After working in insurance for 20 years, Julia made a career change to take over a fabric shop, but she has now returned to work in the insurance industry with a firm based in Rugby.

She currently goes to work four days a week as Rob, but on the firm’s dress-down Fridays, she takes the opportunity to work as Julia.

She said: “I went for the interview as Rob and I go back now as Rob, but I go as Julia at least one day a week, and it was on a dress-down day I first came out to the people in my office.

“They’ve been very good about it and everybody in the office with me is very supportive.”

Outside work, Julia has a mixture of hobbies, including dressmaking and shopping, but also what some may consider to be the more masculine pursuits of boat restoration and driving sports cars.

She also got married 10 years ago in a wedding which saw her wear a suit at the ceremony and a wedding dress at the reception, and says despite what many people expect, she is not gay.

She said: “It’s a very easy assumption for people to make that any man who puts on a skirt is gay, but about 97 per cent of transgender people are not.

“My wife is supporting me through the change. But she has said she doesn’t want to remain married, so at some point we’ll divorce, but we’re going to carry on living together as best friends.”

While her close friends and family have been supportive of her change, Julia admitted some people could be abusive when she is in public.

She said: “A lot of people like me will definitely lose a lot of family members and friends when they come out, but I’m very fortunate and I’ve not lost anybody.

“My mum has always been very supportive, my dad did take a bit longer, but he’s fine with it now.

“But it is nerve-wracking going out in public for the first time. The worst thing is probably going on public transport, because there’s nowhere to go if somebody’s staring at you on a bus.

“I’ve also had a few nasty incidents, like teenagers shouting ‘tranny’ at me and we once had tranny written on the wheelie bin.”

Despite such experiences, Julia has said her decision to stand in the election is not an attempt to ‘blaze a trail’ for transgender people.

The former Nene College student, who has been a supporter of the Liberal Democrats practically all her life, said: “By standing for election, I don’t want to be seen as a trailblazer, but if people want to look at me and say ‘she’s a role model’, I’m happy with that.”
This is awesome on few levels. Not only has she got the guts to go through with what she wants to do, she's comfortable enough to make this public.
I'm still going to decide how to cast my vote based on policies, but if the choice comes down to her or another candidate, her demonstration of courage and integrity will go a long way towards securing my vote.


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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Spambot5546 » Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:34 pm UTC

Not to mention how much of an open mind this indicates her as having. This is a candidate that you know is actually going to care about LGBT rights, rather than just paying lip-service to them.
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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Sourire » Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:38 pm UTC

While I generally found this to be a cool story, the writing lead to a few facepalm moments. Like how the article felt the need to explicitly state Julia does not use the more "predictable" name Roberta.

All that aside though, the actual content is awesome. Win lose or draw I'm glad to see that we live in a world where people can and will make this big statements.
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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Роберт » Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:15 pm UTC

Wheelie bin = trash can for those of us west of the Atlantic.
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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby TechiesGoBoom » Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:20 pm UTC

So I will start off by saying that I think it's great what she's doing, and I hope the people that vote against her do so purely because of her political stance and nothing more, but also hope people vote for her for the same reason.

Now maybe a bit off topic, and it may just reveal my ignorance; I really just noticed one small inconsistency with what she said, and it was when she stated that she was not a homosexual. If she really feels that she is a women, and considers herself a women, then wouldn't the fact the she is a women who is attracted to other women, in fact, qualify her as a lesbian? Then this also affects the marriage, and it's a moot point for them since they are getting divorced, but if she legally became a women, wouldn't that somehow void her marriage to another women for as long as homosexual marriage is against the law? Now I'm not bringing this up because I'm against anything she's doing, I'm just bringing it up because if her marriage was still legally intact after she officially became a women, then maybe there is some failing in her status as being legally a women.

But again, I feel the same way here as I did when Obama was running. If she wins, it will(hopefully) be a victory for the voters, showing that not all of us intolerant.

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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Sourire » Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:19 pm UTC

TechiesGoBoom wrote:So I will start off by saying that I think it's great what she's doing, and I hope the people that vote against her do so purely because of her political stance and nothing more, but also hope people vote for her for the same reason.

Now maybe a bit off topic, and it may just reveal my ignorance; I really just noticed one small inconsistency with what she said, and it was when she stated that she was not a homosexual. If she really feels that she is a women, and considers herself a women, then wouldn't the fact the she is a women who is attracted to other women, in fact, qualify her as a lesbian? Then this also affects the marriage, and it's a moot point for them since they are getting divorced, but if she legally became a women, wouldn't that somehow void her marriage to another women for as long as homosexual marriage is against the law? Now I'm not bringing this up because I'm against anything she's doing, I'm just bringing it up because if her marriage was still legally intact after she officially became a women, then maybe there is some failing in her status as being legally a women.

But again, I feel the same way here as I did when Obama was running. If she wins, it will(hopefully) be a victory for the voters, showing that not all of us intolerant.

Response spoilered for mildly off-topic:
Spoiler:
Basically, I think one of the keys here is realizing the distinction between transgender and transsexual. Transgender incorporates a large number of people, typically those outside of their societally assumed roles. A man wearing a dress at his wedding reception, for instance, may assume a transgender identity, with no desire whatsoever to be seen as a woman. Julia asserts that it does not make him gay to want to wear a dress.

As far as Julia's own sexuality is concerned, I see no real pointers as to a preference. She has a wife, though it seems to me their relationship was far more in-depth than sexual contact. If Julia is primarily attracted to females, I can see why the statement that she does not identify as homosexual might be confusing. However, it is how Julia self-identifies, and not the labels we impose on her, that are important here. There are no "qualifications" to sexuality.

As far as voiding the marriage, I'm not honestly sure at this point. Though I believe marriage licenses have names on them, and legal documents for Robert need not apply to Julia. As a simple thought experiment, if (before transition) Robert had said under oath that he identified as a man who liked women's clothing, we would not try Julia now for perjury. We can realize to a certain extent that things change.
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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Triangle_Man » Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:31 pm UTC

I'll have to congradulate the woman for coming out and deciding to do this, despite how nerve racking it would be for a public official to go through with it. There will be people who will not vote for her because of who she is, but as long as she is staying true to herself, that doesn't really matter.
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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Greyarcher » Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:02 am UTC

--wait. So it's possible--at least in the UK--to have one's gender officially changed but not one's sex? That's...an interesting concept. Made my logic circuits freeze up briefly as they flailed for premises in order to grasp possible implications of this information. Didn't come up with much though, since I don't know all the societal segregations based on sex/gender, and which policies do or do not make a distinction between sex and gender in their segregations.

Come to think of it, I vaguely recall some kerfuffle in sports regarding something similar. Never learned what came of it though.
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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby SlyReaper » Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:03 am UTC

Greyarcher wrote:Come to think of it, I vaguely recall some kerfuffle in sports regarding something similar. Never learned what came of it though.


Is that the one where they accused one of the female olympic runners (the winner of her event) of actually being a man? I think that was laughed off.
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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Chen » Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:16 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:
Greyarcher wrote:Come to think of it, I vaguely recall some kerfuffle in sports regarding something similar. Never learned what came of it though.


Is that the one where they accused one of the female olympic runners (the winner of her event) of actually being a man? I think that was laughed off.


Wasn't laughed off. A lot of testing was actually done with some testosterone irregularities noted. They did let her compete as a woman in the end, but it certainly wasn't a quick thing.

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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Sourire » Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:25 pm UTC

Greyarcher wrote:--wait. So it's possible--at least in the UK--to have one's gender officially changed but not one's sex? That's...an interesting concept. Made my logic circuits freeze up briefly as they flailed for premises in order to grasp possible implications of this information. Didn't come up with much though, since I don't know all the societal segregations based on sex/gender, and which policies do or do not make a distinction between sex and gender in their segregations.

Come to think of it, I vaguely recall some kerfuffle in sports regarding something similar. Never learned what came of it though.

Many governments (I won't speak to the UK without knowing their laws) require a period of real life experience before they'll allow for surgery. Therefore, she'd have to live as Julia for a certain amount of time (she seems to mention a year) before any surgery could be performed.

Though I'm not sure why we as a society get so hung up on the surgical aspect. Also, in terms of sex v. gender, many laws were not written with an understanding of the difference.
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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby SlyReaper » Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:38 pm UTC

Sourire wrote:Though I'm not sure why we as a society get so hung up on the surgical aspect.

Because it's easier to snip it off than to attach a new one if the patient changes their mind later.
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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Chen » Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:18 pm UTC

So whats the common definition of homosexual then? Is it a man who has sex with a man? Or someone of the male gender who has sex with someone else of the male gender? Or is it any combination thereof?

I mean in her case if she is saying she is not homosexual I guess it would imply it refers to the actual sex of the person (i.e., her gender is female, but she still has male sex organs and therefore being with her wife is not gay?). Seems a tad counter-intuitive though.

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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Josephine » Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:21 pm UTC

Chen wrote:So whats the common definition of homosexual then? Is it a man who has sex with a man? Or someone of the male gender who has sex with someone else of the male gender? Or is it any combination thereof?

The common opinion ranges somewhere in here, but someone's personal definition doesn't have to hold to that.
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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Elvish Pillager » Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:23 pm UTC

Chen wrote:So whats the common definition of homosexual then? Is it a man who has sex with a man? Or someone of the male gender who has sex with someone else of the male gender? Or is it any combination thereof?

No. Sexual orientation terms commonly refer to what kinds of people you're sexually attracted to, not to what kinds of people you have sex with.
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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:44 pm UTC

Surprise surprise, she's a lib dem
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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Chen » Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:02 pm UTC

nbonaparte wrote:The common opinion ranges somewhere in here, but someone's personal definition doesn't have to hold to that.


I suppose thats fair but its hardly useful as a way of communicating in that case. Saying you're not homosexual is somewhat meaningless if you don't either use a) a commonly used definition of the word or b) clarify what definition you are using.

Elvish Pillager wrote:No. Sexual orientation terms commonly refer to what kinds of people you're sexually attracted to, not to what kinds of people you have sex with.


Fair, that was a mistake on my part. The question was more do you base being homosexual on gender or sex.

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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Jessica » Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:11 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:
Sourire wrote:Though I'm not sure why we as a society get so hung up on the surgical aspect.
Because it's easier to snip it off than to attach a new one if the patient changes their mind later.
That has nothing to do with why we as a society are hung up on it. It makes sense that there are some hoops to jump to get surgery, but that doesn't mean that society as a whole needs to care about who is pre-op, post-op, non-op etc. There's no need to care about whether someone has had surgery before calling them by the pronouns they prefer.

Edit: Also, that's possibly one of the more offensive ways to put that ever. a) there are trans people who aren't male to female. B) it's not about "snipping it off", at all, and saying it is just propagates harmful memes.

Also, most people who actually get surgery know what they want.

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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Princess Marzipan » Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:23 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:
Sourire wrote:Though I'm not sure why we as a society get so hung up on the surgical aspect.
Because it's easier to snip it off than to attach a new one if the patient changes their mind later.
...you know gender reassignment surgery goes both ways? Your post kind of makes you sound like a douche on top of waving your ignorance around.

As for the hetero- or homosexuality of someone who changes genders...since hetero/homo is based BOTH on a person's gender AND the gender they're attracted to, I'm not sure either designation is particularly meaningful. I know of people who made the opposite decision that Julia apparently has, so there doesn't really appear to be any consensus. The language itself simply doesn't cover these circumstances. (Which is just more of why it's fucking batshit difficult to get people to realize that transgender people and homosexual people are, y'know, people, and not weird and different.)
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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby broken_escalator » Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:34 pm UTC

Greyarcher wrote:--wait. So it's possible--at least in the UK--to have one's gender officially changed but not one's sex? That's...an interesting concept. Made my logic circuits freeze up briefly as they flailed for premises in order to grasp possible implications of this information. Didn't come up with much though, since I don't know all the societal segregations based on sex/gender, and which policies do or do not make a distinction between sex and gender in their segregations.

Come to think of it, I vaguely recall some kerfuffle in sports regarding something similar. Never learned what came of it though.

In Albania women could become 'men' by swearing to virginity and being a symbolic male. Their culture is hugely segregated by gender, enough to the point that if the patriarch of a family dies and there is no male heir, a female can become a 'man'. This involves zero surgery, although the woman is expected to dress, act and be treated like a man.

I know Albania isn't the same as the UK, but I'm just showing some examples in gender change and segregated societies.

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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby General_Norris » Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:37 pm UTC

I think that given that "homosexual" includes sex not gender in it saying that it's based on gender is quite an stretch and a loss of the meaning of the term. I don't think that making homosexuality mean "I like people who wear a certain kind of clothing, are looked this way by society and like this sport" is helpful or represents what most people think "homosexuality" means.

I also think that there's no problem concerning terminology. This person is a man right now because he has a penis/bone strcuture X/bla. If that person goes a surgical procedure and becomes a woman she will be a woman. Thus as long as she is a man she will be homosexual and when she changes sex she will be heterosexual. Makes sense to me. It would be far easier to have "womansexual" and "mansexual" thugh as hilarious those words sound.

Confusion arises when sex and gender are mixed up, IMHO.

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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Jessica » Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:54 pm UTC

General_Norris wrote:I think that given that "homosexual" includes sex not gender in it saying that it's based on gender is quite an stretch and a loss of the meaning of the term. I don't think that making homosexuality mean "I like people who wear a certain kind of clothing, are looked this way by society and like this sport" is helpful or represents what most people think "homosexuality" means.

I also think that there's no problem concerning terminology. This person is a man right now because he has a penis/bone strcuture X/bla. If that person goes a surgical procedure and becomes a woman she will be a woman. Thus as long as she is a man she will be homosexual and when she changes sex she will be heterosexual. Makes sense to me. It would be far easier to have "womansexual" and "mansexual" thugh as hilarious those words sound.

Confusion arises when sex and gender are mixed up, IMHO.

a) She isn't a man. It doesn't matter if she has surgery or not. She is a woman.

b) Gender isn't just "wear a certain kind of clothing, are looked this way by society and like this sport". It's a lot more than that. What people are attracted to is gender, in that people don't do spot checks for anatomy, or genetics before liking someone.

c) People will self identity as whatever they wish. There are men who have sex with men, who identify as straight. If she wants to identify as straight while having a wife and being a woman, that's her prerogative. What does it matter to the public at large how she identifies?
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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Plasma Man » Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:09 pm UTC

For what it's worth, when she was speaking about not being gay, I thought she meant that women who happen to be born with the XY chromosome combination don't necessarily want to have sex with men.
Regarding sugery, there are a few people who can't have surgery (talking about surgery in general here) because of allergies to anaesthetics. It'd be pretty unfair not to recognise someone's true gender because of an allergy, so I can't see that having surgery or not matters.
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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Chen » Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:41 pm UTC

Jessica wrote:c) People will self identity as whatever they wish. There are men who have sex with men, who identify as straight. If she wants to identify as straight while having a wife and being a woman, that's her prerogative. What does it matter to the public at large how she identifies?


Well I'd say it matters because its pretty confusing the way it stands. If a man is attracted to other men and has sex with said men but then decides to say he is heterosexual or straight it just leads to confusion because thats not what those terms are generally defined as. Its why I asked in the first place. Sure anyone can say they're anything they want, but its useless in terms of communication if you're not using some standard set of definitions (barring further elaboration on your part).

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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Роберт » Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:46 pm UTC

Jessica wrote:c) People will self identity as whatever they wish. There are men who have sex with men, who identify as straight.

How does that even make sense, though? What is the point of going along with something like that? I mean, if a man who identifies as a man, has typical male genetics and genitals, dresses like a typical man and is not sexually/romantically/whatever attracted to males, and calls himself gay, I wouldn't stop him, but I would think it's factually incorrect and I doubt I would go along with it.
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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby broken_escalator » Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:50 pm UTC

I try not to get all up in peoples business about gender just so long as they aren't spouting off things like gender is binary (straight-gay) or something harmful to that effect.

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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Wyvern » Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:08 pm UTC

The article doesn't mention her orientation at all, other than she says she's not gay. It even says that she'll eventually be divorced from her wife, whom doesn't want to stay married. That's probably because neither of them are gay.

...........................

Seriously, why is that so hard to understand?

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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Роберт » Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:12 pm UTC

broken_escalator wrote:I try not to get all up in peoples business about gender just so long as they aren't spouting off things like gender is binary (straight-gay) or something harmful to that effect.

Are you talking about gender? Because straight-gay sounds like sexual orientation, not gender.

Wyvern wrote:The article doesn't mention her orientation at all, other than she says she's not gay. It even says that she'll eventually be divorced from her wife, whom doesn't want to stay married. That's probably because neither of them are gay.

...........................

Seriously, why is that so hard to understand?

The original question was
techiesgoboom wrote:Now maybe a bit off topic, and it may just reveal my ignorance; I really just noticed one small inconsistency with what she said, and it was when she stated that she was not a homosexual. If she really feels that she is a women, and considers herself a women, then wouldn't the fact the she is a women who is attracted to other women, in fact, qualify her as a lesbian? Then this also affects the marriage, and it's a moot point for them since they are getting divorced, but if she legally became a women, wouldn't that somehow void her marriage to another women for as long as homosexual marriage is against the law? Now I'm not bringing this up because I'm against anything she's doing, I'm just bringing it up because if her marriage was still legally intact after she officially became a women, then maybe there is some failing in her status as being legally a women.

I understand if you don't want to take the time to answer the question, but there is no reason to be condescending and pretend that is a stupid question.
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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Jessica » Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:21 pm UTC

Well, it's not an inconsistency. she's not gay. She's getting divorced. What's the issue? That she is married? That doesn't mean that she's attracted to women.

But, if you're asking what should a trans person identify as? That question should be resolved by asking that trans person what they identify as. Because what other metric can you use? People who are gay/straight usually don't have 100% experiences that align with their current label. So, since you can't know how they feel about people, you should use the label they choose.

Really, a trans woman who says she's straight is a trans woman who says she's straight. What problem is there with that? There's really no need to doubt what someone calls themselves.
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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:52 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:
Jessica wrote:There are men who have sex with men, who identify as straight.
How does that even make sense, though?
Because having sex with men doesn't mean you exclusively or even predominately have sex with men?
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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Роберт » Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:58 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Роберт wrote:
Jessica wrote:There are men who have sex with men, who identify as straight.
How does that even make sense, though?
Because having sex with men doesn't mean you exclusively or even predominately have sex with men?

...so you think "straight" for a man means "doesn't predominately have sex with men"? Or what? I don't understand how your post is a reasonable answer.
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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Osha » Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:14 pm UTC

OK, here's why a person's self-identification should be respected:
Because you don't have the right to not be confused. You don't know how she sees herself. How she sees the world, what it's like to be in her shoes. So don't try and demand she use whatever sexuality identification, you, as an outside observer thinks she should use based off a crappy transphobic news article.
Identities aren't fixed in stone, and neither do they have clear outlines, and neither is there a standards comittee, and that's just how it is and you can go on and on about how X is really Y and not Z, but that's not liable to engender much friendship with X. If they identify as Y they have a reason for this, and this reason can be as personal or as rational as they want. It's self identification for a reason.
And unless someone's being appropriative I don't see the problem.

Edit: this is talking about individuals, and not groups. And yeah internalized stuff can definitely play a role into self-identity but that's still nothing for anyone to police on a person-by-person basis, which would be kinda an asshole thing to do.

Edit 2: got rid of some US centrism in my post <_<

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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby SlyReaper » Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:51 pm UTC

Jessica wrote:
SlyReaper wrote:
Sourire wrote:Though I'm not sure why we as a society get so hung up on the surgical aspect.
Because it's easier to snip it off than to attach a new one if the patient changes their mind later.
That has nothing to do with why we as a society are hung up on it. It makes sense that there are some hoops to jump to get surgery, but that doesn't mean that society as a whole needs to care about who is pre-op, post-op, non-op etc. There's no need to care about whether someone has had surgery before calling them by the pronouns they prefer.

Edit: Also, that's possibly one of the more offensive ways to put that ever. a) there are trans people who aren't male to female. B) it's not about "snipping it off", at all, and saying it is just propagates harmful memes.

Also, most people who actually get surgery know what they want.

ARGH.


Sorry, that was thoughtless of me.
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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Jessica » Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:58 pm UTC

It's ok. I forgive you.
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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:49 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
Роберт wrote:
Jessica wrote:There are men who have sex with men, who identify as straight.
How does that even make sense, though?
Because having sex with men doesn't mean you exclusively or even predominately have sex with men?
...so you think "straight" for a man means "doesn't predominately have sex with men"? Or what?
No, I think "straight" for a man means "identifies as straight".

But even if I'm going to put some objective criteria on top of that, I'd say a straight man is one who is primarily attracted to and has relationships with women. Which in no way precludes also having sex with men from time to time.

I don't understand how your post is a reasonable answer.
Well I don't understand how this is apparently so unbelievably complicated for you...
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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Xeio » Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:00 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:No, I think "straight" for a man means "identifies as straight".
Well... sure... but then you might as well identify as a purple people eater from new mexico for all the good it does.
Osha wrote:OK, here's why a person's self-identification should be respected:
Because you don't have the right to not be confused.
That's fairly irrelevant to the point, and uh... you don't have a right to be confusing? :roll: This isn't about rights, it's about communication, which you are free to disgregard, just don't get all testy about it when someone calls you out on communicating badly.

Taking what a newspaper says with regards with a grain of salt is pretty good advice though, particularly with regard to someone's personal life.

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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Jessica » Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:11 pm UTC

I really don't understand what's confusing or incorrect about anything we've said. If someone says they are straight, why is it a problem to trust that they know how they want to present themselves better than you might? Why is it confusing at all? I know when I talk to people, if the topic even comes up, I generally trust people when they say "I'm straight", and don't press them to see if they've ever had a gay experience, thought, dream. I don't say "well, you look gay, so you're probably just wrong about it".

Why is it important for you to be "right" about someone's label? Why can't you just accept what people say about who they are?

People can and do identify as a whole lot of things. Let people self identify, because if you don't you're forcing people to not live their live as they choose, but to live life as you choose, and you don't have that right.
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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Роберт » Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:17 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
I don't understand how your post is a reasonable answer.
Well I don't understand how this is apparently so unbelievably complicated for you...

It was a nicer way of saying "that is a complete straw-men". I was trying to be polite about it, even though you don't feel the need to be polite. No one said having sex with men meant you only wanted sex with men, or predominantly wanted sex with men.

You know what I call someone who is attracted to and has sex with both men and women? Bisexual. Not straight.

I see no reason to humor someone who is using incorrect terminology for sexual orientation.

gmalivuk wrote:I think "straight" for a man means "identifies as straight".
In other words, there is absolutely no reason to identify as anything, because there is no meaning behind it?
Last edited by Роберт on Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:24 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Shivahn » Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:22 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:That's fairly irrelevant to the point, and uh... you don't have a right to be confusing? :roll:


...Yes she does?

You're saying that she has to communicate everything on your terms, whether she wants to or not. I mean, I get that you're (hopefully) being flippant, but you just said that minorities don't have a right to self-identity if it disagrees with what categories you think they should be in, which is kind of... messed up.

And silly. She's no obligated to communicate on your terms, and she's not trying to act smug or clever when people misinterpret, merely stating that their interpretation is harmful. So the comic is kind of a non-sequitor.

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Re: Politician officially changing gender

Postby Роберт » Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:24 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
I don't understand how your post is a reasonable answer.
Well I don't understand how this is apparently so unbelievably complicated for you...

It was a nicer way of saying "that is a complete straw-men". I was trying to be polite about it, even though you don't feel the need to be polite. No one said having sex with meant meant you only wanted sex with men, or predominantly wanted sex with men.

You know what I call someone who is attracted to and has sex with both men and women? Bisexual. Not straight.

I see no reason to humor someone who is using incorrect terminology for sexual orientation.

gmalivuk wrote:I think "straight" for a man means "identifies as straight".
In other words, there is absolutely no reason to identify as anything, because there is no meaning behind it?


Jessica wrote:If someone says they are straight, why is it a problem to trust that they know how they want to present themselves better than you might? Why is it confusing at all? I know when I talk to people, if the topic even comes up, I generally trust people when they say "I'm straight", and don't press them to see if they've ever had a gay experience, thought, dream. I don't say "well, you look gay, so you're probably just wrong about it".

I agree with you here. Just like if someone tells me they are French or Jewish. I don't question it, I accept what they said. However, if someone who has German parents and grew up in Germany, and never went to France, learned French, or anything like that, decided to say they were French, that would be silly. I wouldn't try to stop them from saying it, but I might try to convince them that they are being silly and confusing so they can choose to stop saying it.
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