France bans burqa

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France bans burqa

Postby Osha » Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:24 am UTC

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/09/14/france.burqa.ban/
Spoiler:
Paris, France (CNN) -- The French Senate approved Tuesday a law banning any veils that cover the face -- including the burqa, the full-body covering worn by some Muslim women -- making France the first European country to plan such a measure.
The legislation was overwhelmingly approved by the lower house of parliament in July and will go into effect next spring.
"Given the damage it produces on those rules which allow the life in community, ensure the dignity of the person and equality between sexes, this practice, even if it is voluntary, cannot be tolerated in any public place," the French government said when it sent the measure to parliament in May.

The law imposes a fine of 150 euros ($190) and/or a citizenship course as punishment for wearing a face-covering veil. Forcing a woman to wear a niqab or a burqa will be punishable by a year in prison or a 15,000-euro ($19,000) fine, the government said, calling it "a new form of enslavement that the republic cannot accept on its soil."

The ban pertains to the burqa, a full-body covering that includes a mesh over the face, and the niqab, a full-face veil that leaves an opening only for the eyes. The hijab, which covers the hair and neck but not the face, and the chador, which covers the body but not the face, apparently are not banned by the law.


Urg, I'm tired of islamophobic BS like this. A clothing ban that targets an already marginalized group is not my idea of ensuring dignity or equality.

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Re: France bans burqa

Postby poxic » Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:34 am UTC

So ... women who are part of a particular type of Muslim culture, and don't want to incur a thousand kinds of personal hell by defying it, can no longer leave the house?

Yeah, that will "ensure the dignity of the person and equality between sexes".

I like the idealism, but it is likely to fail the actual-effect-on-reality test. I feel good for women who can use this to argue "hey let me take this fucking thing off" and bad for women who will be further abused by this. :cry:
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Re: France bans burqa

Postby StNowhere » Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:50 am UTC

I can see where this might even become a basic "Muslim fee." If you've got the euros to pay the fine, so much the merrier, I suppose, but those who wear a full burqa are religious enough that if they can't pay the fine, and it comes between sin and living outside the house, yeah, it quite nearly becomes house arrest.

This isn't idealism, it's sensationalism. Society's ills can't be changed by throwing fines at people. Égalité, indeed.

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Re: France bans burqa

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:33 am UTC

Considering that Kippas (circular 'hats' that Jews wear) have already been banned in public buildings in France, this already has a precedent.

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Re: France bans burqa

Postby Vellyr » Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:38 pm UTC

I totally understand the sentiment behind this, but getting rid of Islam (or any religion) is not as simple as fining it until it goes away. Nor is it something the government should be trying to do.

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Re: France bans burqa

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:03 pm UTC

Vellyr wrote:I totally understand the sentiment behind this, but getting rid of Islam (or any religion) is not as simple as fining it until it goes away.


It worked for Islam; due to the Dhimmi system, and various other economic penalties, as well as much harsher penalties, there are very few non-muslims in Muslim-controlled areas.

Vellyr wrote:Nor is it something the government should be trying to do.


I'll agree with you on that one almost completely.

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Re: France bans burqa

Postby Dream » Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:36 pm UTC

poxic wrote:So ... women who are part of a particular type of Muslim culture, and don't want to incur a thousand kinds of personal hell by defying it, can no longer leave the house?

The law does also include a much more harsh sentence for the people causing the thousand kinds of personal hell. It will be bad for people who will be further abused, but it will also punish the abusers.
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Re: France bans burqa

Postby yedidyak » Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:25 pm UTC

Dream wrote:
poxic wrote:So ... women who are part of a particular type of Muslim culture, and don't want to incur a thousand kinds of personal hell by defying it, can no longer leave the house?

The law does also include a much more harsh sentence for the people causing the thousand kinds of personal hell. It will be bad for people who will be further abused, but it will also punish the abusers.


What about the non-abused Muslim women who believe that the burqa is right? There must be a few of those.

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Re: France bans burqa

Postby Eowiel » Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:37 pm UTC

yedidyak wrote:
Dream wrote:
poxic wrote:So ... women who are part of a particular type of Muslim culture, and don't want to incur a thousand kinds of personal hell by defying it, can no longer leave the house?

The law does also include a much more harsh sentence for the people causing the thousand kinds of personal hell. It will be bad for people who will be further abused, but it will also punish the abusers.


What about the non-abused Muslim women who believe that the burqa is right? There must be a few of those.


I think it would be reasonable for them to acknowledge that there is an abuse problem and accept that banning the piece of garment is the lesser evil.

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Re: France bans burqa

Postby Ulc » Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:47 pm UTC

Eowiel wrote:I think it would be reasonable for them to acknowledge that there is an abuse problem and accept that banning the piece of garment is the lesser evil.


So what you're arguing is that women can't possible prefer to wear a burqa, without being abused?

The fact that someone that shares a clothing style with you gets abused, is not a good reason to ban said clothing style. That would be like banning the wifebeater (style of clothing) due to the fact that it is often worn by someone in a abusive relationship. It doesn't actually do anything about the abuse, it merely infringes upon someone's privacy to pick their own clothes.
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Re: France bans burqa

Postby Eowiel » Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:12 pm UTC

I think you're missing the point of why the burqua is banned. The wearing of the burqua itself is considered part of the abuse, it's not just a symbol that represents the abuse. Women are forced to wear a burqa because they are considered as inferior, the culture that lets womens wear burqas in France is a culture that is very stringent on how women should behave but imposes very little rules on men.

Ofcourse, I'm sure there will be women who really want to wear the burqa, and it's true that their right of choosing their own clothes is infringed by this measure. But I think that's this infringement is surely the lesser of two evils.

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Re: France bans burqa

Postby paulisa » Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:31 pm UTC

I guess it should be everyones right to conceal their face in every situation they feel like. I do not think it's anyones right to educate/indoctrinate a group of people to choose to conceal their faces all the time.

I think the ban has two main reasons, which are interconnected.
The most importat (to me) is abovementioned coercion. I don't think it's "right" to teach women that they're inferior and have to hide their face so as to avoid exciting men to the point that they think it's their own choice. Of course, I've been taught that it's polite to show your face to someone you're talking to, so maybe that's not my "free choice" either. But the loss of communication that happens when someone covery their face is an objective loss, the only subjective part is how much is lost. If the opinion of a woman is not considered as important as that of a man, it's not as important to see her face while saying it.

France is trying to be a secular, egalitarian state. It cannot tolerate a culture undermining that by hiding away their women. I cannot fully subscribe to the notion that the burqa is only a piece of clothing. I've seen girls wearing headscarves as accessories, like other girls wear handbags and heels, but they're trying to make the best of a situation into which they are forced. This law is not meant to "get rid of Islam in France" but to force the expression of religion back into the private space where it belongs.

In some areas of my country, it is "the done thing" for widowed women in the countrysinde to wear headscarves. I think I see this just as negatively, because there is the same pressure from the community to conform to this outdated rule. On the other hand, most of our clothing-norms come from pressure from either the community or the conditions outside, so I'm not sure where/if there should be a line drawn between "legitimate" and "illegitimate" norms.
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Re: France bans burqa

Postby johnny_7713 » Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:32 pm UTC

Dream wrote:
poxic wrote:So ... women who are part of a particular type of Muslim culture, and don't want to incur a thousand kinds of personal hell by defying it, can no longer leave the house?

The law does also include a much more harsh sentence for the people causing the thousand kinds of personal hell. It will be bad for people who will be further abused, but it will also punish the abusers.


Here's a radical idea: keep the second part of the law, where people that force a woman to wear the burqa get punished, but get rid of the first part of the law (were women get punished for wearing a burqa). Now women are free to wear whatever they like AND people get punished for forcing a woman to wear something she doesn't want to. Its a solution so simple it makes you wonder why the people behind this law didn't see it. You'd almost think they had some other reason for pushing for this ban.

Also the whole lesser of two evils thing? Yeah doesn't work so well:

I'm sure there's children that want to go to church, but surely banning them from going to church protects them from being abused, so its the lesser of two evils.
I'm sure there's women that want to look after their children themselves, but surely banning them from doing this protects them from being forced to stay at home so its the lesser of two evils.

or for a more radical approach to why this is a bad idea:

I'm sure there's people who have perfectly innocent phone conversations, and it's true that people's right to privacy is infringed by warrantless tapping, but since it prevents terrorism it is surely the lesser of two evils.

Also, fining someone for being abused? How is that not victim blaming taken to an absurd new height? What's next? Community service for any woman found walking the street with a black eye?

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Re: France bans burqa

Postby Eowiel » Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:57 pm UTC

johnny_7713 wrote:
Here's a radical idea: keep the second part of the law, where people that force a woman to wear the burqa get punished, but get rid of the first part of the law (were women get punished for wearing a burqa). Now women are free to wear whatever they like AND people get punished for forcing a woman to wear something she doesn't want to. Its a solution so simple it makes you wonder why the people behind this law didn't see it. You'd almost think they had some other reason for pushing for this ban.


It's not as simple as you make it sound. It's not like they are forced to wear a burqa at gunpoint, it's just that it is part of a culture that sees women as inferior and therefore let's women wear Burquas while men are free to wear what they like. France has made the choice to not accept that, even if that takes the right from some people to wear the clothing they like. By the way, wearing clothing that conceils your face without a permit in public is illegal in a lot of countries, although for different reasons.

Also I hope you understand that all the examples you gave have nothing to do with the case at hand. It's not like anyone here is debating that banning things is the best solution to everything.

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Re: France bans burqa

Postby johnny_7713 » Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:53 pm UTC

Eowiel wrote:
johnny_7713 wrote:
Here's a radical idea: keep the second part of the law, where people that force a woman to wear the burqa get punished, but get rid of the first part of the law (were women get punished for wearing a burqa). Now women are free to wear whatever they like AND people get punished for forcing a woman to wear something she doesn't want to. Its a solution so simple it makes you wonder why the people behind this law didn't see it. You'd almost think they had some other reason for pushing for this ban.


It's not as simple as you make it sound. It's not like they are forced to wear a burqa at gunpoint, it's just that it is part of a culture that sees women as inferior and therefore let's women wear Burquas while men are free to wear what they like. France has made the choice to not accept that, even if that takes the right from some people to wear the clothing they like.


Except the only thing this law is going to achieve is that the women who were forced to wear a burqa (whether at gunpoint or by their society) are now not allowed out of their home at all.

The examples I gave, while hyperbolic, are all examples of a group being stripped of a certain right under the guise of protecting them from some kind of abuse, which is exactly what is happening here.

Sidenote: A hundred years ago Western culture did not allow women to wear trousers, but that seems to have been solved pretty well without removing a woman's right to wear a skirt.

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Re: France bans burqa

Postby Paranoid__Android » Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:36 am UTC

paulisa wrote:France is trying to be a secular, egalitarian state. It cannot tolerate a culture undermining that by hiding away their women. I cannot fully subscribe to the notion that the burqa is only a piece of clothing. I've seen girls wearing headscarves as accessories, like other girls wear handbags and heels, but they're trying to make the best of a situation into which they are forced. This law is not meant to "get rid of Islam in France" but to force the expression of religion back into the private space where it belongs.

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Why cant I wear I crucifix if I'm a Christian; or a Kippa if I'm Jewish; or wear a turban or a kara bracelet if I'm a Sikh... If I were a Sikh would you ask me to cut off my hair because it is a symbol of my faith? or would you just ban me from wearing a turban?- so I'm always tripping over my hair that's dragging about my feet.

That's pretty messed up and deeply insensitive to peoples religious needs, responsibilities and beliefs.
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Re: France bans burqa

Postby Ulc » Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:07 am UTC

paulisa wrote:I guess it should be everyones right to conceal their face in every situation they feel like. I do not think it's anyones right to educate/indoctrinate a group of people to choose to conceal their faces all the time.


Just for the record, you're aware that a burqa does not conceal the face?

A niqab on the other hand, does conceal the face. It's two distinct styles, and by the last count here in Denmark (similar numbers as France in all other aspects of immigration) there's exactly two persons that wear it.

I think you're missing the point of why the burqua is banned. The wearing of the burqua itself is considered part of the abuse, it's not just a symbol that represents the abuse. Women are forced to wear a burqa because they are considered as inferior, the culture that lets womens wear burqas in France is a culture that is very stringent on how women should behave but imposes very little rules on men.


Nope, I'm not really missing the point why it is being banned, it's the same reason that certain politicians are arguing for the same here in Denmark, a huge case of islamophobi. The arguments provided here in this thread is the excuse, not the reason, but even the excuse is silly.

Banning the burqa is not going to help the women being abused, It is however very likely to make it even worse, as the ban can for a certain amount of people lead to a selfimposed house arrest*.

It's like solving the problem with people hitting their kids by banning belts. the fact that they are part of the abuse does not mean that the abuse will be lessened by banning them, and meanwhile all you've done is to annoy people that happens to like wearing belts. And possible put the victim in danger of further abuse ("damn you kid, you cost me my belt!").

*Notice that it is very rarely something enforced by other members of the culture, but if you have been brought up to believe that a women exposing her hair in public is indecent, you're not going to feel comfortable in public with your hair exposed.
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Re: France bans burqa

Postby Dream » Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:59 am UTC

Ulc wrote:Just for the record, you're aware that a burqa does not conceal the face?
Yes, it does.
wikipedia wrote:The burqa is usually understood to be the woman's loose body-covering (Arabic: jilbāb), plus the head-covering (Arabic: ḥijāb, taking the most usual meaning), plus the face-veil (Arabic: niqāb).
The burqa covers the face. And since it is face-veiling that is specifically banned, this:
Ulc wrote:if you have been brought up to believe that a women exposing her hair in public is indecent, you're not going to feel comfortable in public with your hair exposed.
is irrelevant, because hair coverings are not affected by the ban.

Ulc wrote:A niqab on the other hand, does conceal the face. It's two distinct styles, and by the last count here in Denmark (similar numbers as France in all other aspects of immigration) there's exactly two persons that wear it.

Denmark and France don't have the same immigration issues, unless Denmark suddenly sprouted millions-strong banlieus in multiple cities along with repeated, massive riots in immigrant heavy areas. But even then, every large city I've lived in, and most I've visited have had populations of veiled muslim women. Far more than two.

Ulc wrote:It's like solving the problem with people hitting their kids by banning belts.

No, it's not. Belts are no more instruments of child abuse than are crops, chairs, wooden spoons, hair brushes or anything else that was ever used in the spanking of a child. It's more like banning heroin or handguns, things that the overwhelming majority of people will never have anything to do with, legal or not. These would be safe and harmless in my hands, or most people's but their use in the manner they were designed to be used has been found to be detrimental to society. I can't have a handgun because a lunatic in Dunblane should never have been allowed near one. I can' have heroin because traffic and addicted people often cause a large amount of crime. Burqas are being banned because they are instrumental in the systematic abuse of women. Some women, who can be trusted to be wearing them for no reason other than their own free and considered choice, will have to give up a little freedom so that a law against such abuse can exist.

For the record, I don't know where I stand on this actual law. I don't know what the practical outcome will be, nor do I know the communities involved well enough to judge. But I know what I think about veiling women. I consider raising a person to wall themselves physically off from all but a tiny handful of designated people, and to do so by their own choice, to be an abusive act. I consider pressuring a person to do so against their will, or castigating a person for not doing so to be criminal acts. I think anyone arguing that this issue comes down to freedom of choice versus islamophobia is not dealing with reality.
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Re: France bans burqa

Postby paulisa » Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:44 am UTC

Dream wrote:For the record, I don't know where I stand on this actual law. I don't know what the practical outcome will be, nor do I know the communities involved well enough to judge. But I know what I think about veiling women. I consider raising a person to wall themselves physically off from all but a tiny handful of designated people, and to do so by their own choice, to be an abusive act. I consider pressuring a person to do so against their will, or castigating a person for not doing so to be criminal acts. I think anyone arguing that this issue comes down to freedom of choice versus islamophobia is not dealing with reality.


I totally agree with this statement. The face-covering is not the main issue here, it's the systematic repression and "hiding-away" of women. I think that some of those who say they cover their face of their own free will have just been taught that way all their lives; others do it to separate themselves from society for whatever reasons; and still others maybe do it as a kind of teenage rebellion against the mainstream of women "showing themselves off".

I hope that as these immigrants live for a while in a free society, they realise that women are too valuable to hide away. Double-income families are pretty much the standard in most of europe, and these families have a much higher standard of living. Maybe the men opressing their women will see that it's much better to work *with* them instead of against them.
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Re: France bans burqa

Postby Amarantha » Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:11 am UTC

Here's a blog entry that has diagrams of burqa, niqab and hijab, and a link to a youtube video in which a French muslim girl comes up with an interesting solution to the request to remove her niqab.

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Re: France bans burqa

Postby Ulc » Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:52 am UTC

Dream wrote:
Ulc wrote:Just for the record, you're aware that a burqa does not conceal the face?
Yes, it does.


Sorry - seems the Danish media is using the wrong words about things then.

That doesn't change the fact that the law is a bad idea. It's not going to work out well for the ones the law tries to protect, and it is never a good idea to deal with the instrument of abuse, instead of the abuse itself.

I completely agree that it is a horrible act of abuse to raise your children to believe that they must wear completely concealing clothes. But making a law against said clothes are only going to alienate all those women that have already been brought up that way, make a lot of people angry and further separate the culture that believes this is right from the rest of society, essentially enforcing this abuse for the next generations.

Which is entirely beside the point that I find it very troublesome for a state to dictate what it's citizens must and must not wear.

Now, if I actually thought even for a moment that this law could lessen the amount of abuse these women are victims of, I could accept the argument of "lesser of two evils", I might not agree, but then the argument would make sense at least. But I don't.
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Re: France bans burqa

Postby Dream » Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:51 am UTC

Ulc wrote:Which is entirely beside the point that I find it very troublesome for a state to dictate what it's citizens must and must not wear.
You keep mischaracterising this. The state hasn't suddenly instituted an approved clothing diktat. It has decided to ban a thing which happens to be a piece of clothing, an action which is in line with international precedents in banning items that are seen by states as contributing to undesirable activity by citizens. If you don't like the idea that the state can ban things, Europe probably isn't the place for you. It's always been a very strong-state place, and this is an expression of that.
Ulc wrote:But making a law against said clothes are only going to alienate all those women that have already been brought up that way, make a lot of people angry and further separate the culture that believes this is right from the rest of society, essentially enforcing this abuse for the next generations.
Any law is going to negatively affect some people who's lives are such that the law impacts them in a disproportionately large way. If we limited our statutes to only laws that didn't hurt anyone, we'd have very few laws at all. Apply that thinking to something like female circumcision. Were that practise banned, some women would doubtless grow up feeling ugly, incomplete, unmarriagable and a disappointment to their families, because they hadn't had the procedure. Their feelings do not eclipse the objective need to stamp out the practise in order to protect the women who don't want it. I'd feel terribly sorry for any woman so affected, but there has to be a universal and objective basis for the law. It can't be written to avoid hurting or offending. If you try to do that, you end up with Don't Ask, Don't Tell.
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Re: France bans burqa

Postby Zamfir » Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:15 pm UTC

Dream wrote:Europe probably isn't the place for you. It's always been a very strong-state place, and this is an expression of that.

As opposed to where? There are hardly places on earth where states do not regularly ban things.

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Re: France bans burqa

Postby johnny_7713 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:25 pm UTC

Dream wrote:Any law is going to negatively affect some people who's lives are such that the law impacts them in a disproportionately large way. If we limited our statutes to only laws that didn't hurt anyone, we'd have very few laws at all.


Fair enough, but the negative effect should be balanced by a positive effect. I've yet to see a convincing argument that shows how this law is going to lead to less abuse of women, rather than more. If the French government really wants to help these women why aren't they setting up a program that will empower these women to escape from their oppressive environment (e.g. education, shelters, counselling, etc), rather than fining them? I don't recall any other case of oppression that was solved by punishing the oppressed. Certain people in the Netherlands think that women should lose the right to vote (and presumably don't allow their wives/daughters to vote, though I'm not sure), should we fine women who don't vote to prevent this?

Dream wrote:I think anyone arguing that this issue comes down to freedom of choice versus islamophobia is not dealing with reality.


I agree with you that veiling women is abusive and is a problem that should be dealt with. However this law is such a poorly thought out solution to this law and has such obvious roots in the current tide of islamophobia gripping Europe that it does indeed come down to freedom of choice versus islamophobia, since its not actually going to do anything to improve the position of women.

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Re: France bans burqa

Postby Ulc » Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:30 pm UTC

You keep mischaracterising this. The state hasn't suddenly instituted an approved clothing diktat. It has decided to ban a thing which happens to be a piece of clothing, an action which is in line with international precedents in banning items that are seen by states as contributing to undesirable activity by citizens


It doesn't ban parents telling their children that any decent women wears a burqa. It doesn't ban people calling off a relationship because their partner wont wear a burqa*. In fact, it doesn't address very much of the issue at all, except in the rather rare cases of the woman being forced by her husband to wear it.

What it does ban, is a piece of clothing. Which the person wearing it wants to wear (even if we, from outside, can recognise it as being a unhealthy desire). It doesn't contribute to any actions, it is the results of actions over the last 12-13 years of her life. And thus all the law is doing is treating a symptom, hoping that if we ignore it hard enough, the disease (abuse of women) will go away.

And I actually prefers a strong state, as I tend to think that people need it. But some issues the state should stay the fuck out of. Such as what I choose to wear, or how I groom my hair, as long as my choice doesn't hurt anyone beside myself.

Dream wrote:Any law is going to negatively affect some people who's lives are such that the law impacts them in a disproportionately large way. If we limited our statutes to only laws that didn't hurt anyone, we'd have very few laws at all.


Yes, any law is going to affect someone negatively, but this is a law that claims to be about protecting the people that it harms the most. I tend to think that is a bad idea.

And as Johnny says, a law should also have a positive effect. About the only people that this is going to have a positive effect for is people that dislike islam - they wont have to look at it any more.

I hardly think that's a important enough positive effect to accept the state meddling in what clothes people wear.

*Because banning someone from leaving a relationship is a really, really horrible idea.
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Re: France bans burqa

Postby Dream » Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:24 pm UTC

Ulc wrote:It doesn't ban parents telling their children that any decent women wears a burqa. It doesn't ban people calling off a relationship because their partner wont wear a burqa*. In fact, it doesn't address very much of the issue at all, except in the rather rare cases of the woman being forced by her husband to wear it.
That's because banning a system of thought is a little different to banning the use of a physical item. There are long legal traditions against the former, and in favour of the latter. It's no wonder the state is following those traditions, and policing the actions instead of the motivations.
Ulc wrote:Yes, any law is going to affect someone negatively, but this is a law that claims to be about protecting the people that it harms the most. I tend to think that is a bad idea.
What I mean is that any law will affect some people extremely badly, like those for whom not receiving FGM will essentially ruin their lives. It's a universal aspect of applying laws across the board, and is far from unique to this issue. I could go on and on with the examples, but it shouldn't need explaining that for any law there will be people for whom it does more harm than good.
Ulc wrote:About the only people that this is going to have a positive effect for is people that dislike islam - they wont have to look at it any more.
No, it will be very good for anyone who doesn't want to wear the veil, but is pressured to in a manner that falls short of imprisoning them for disobedience.
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Re: France bans burqa

Postby johnny_7713 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:37 pm UTC

Dream wrote:
Ulc wrote:Yes, any law is going to affect someone negatively, but this is a law that claims to be about protecting the people that it harms the most. I tend to think that is a bad idea.
What I mean is that any law will affect some people extremely badly, like those for whom not receiving FGM will essentially ruin their lives. It's a universal aspect of applying laws across the board, and is far from unique to this issue. I could go on and on with the examples, but it shouldn't need explaining that for any law there will be people for whom it does more harm than good.


Yes, but this should be balanced by there being people for whom the law does more good than harm. In this case, those people do not exist.

Dream wrote:
Ulc wrote:About the only people that this is going to have a positive effect for is people that dislike islam - they wont have to look at it any more.
No, it will be very good for anyone who doesn't want to wear the veil, but is pressured to in a manner that falls short of imprisoning them for disobedience.


Only if you think that this law will somehow allow those women to escape having to wear the veil, which I very much doubt.

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Re: France bans burqa

Postby Ulc » Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:12 pm UTC

Dream wrote:
Ulc wrote:About the only people that this is going to have a positive effect for is people that dislike islam - they wont have to look at it any more.
No, it will be very good for anyone who doesn't want to wear the veil, but is pressured to in a manner that falls short of imprisoning them for disobedience.


See, that's where we differ.

Most of these women are not forced to wear the burqa, they have been brought up to think that wearing the burqa is righteous, and that any woman seen without a burqa is a shameless slut. It does not matter that we can recognise this opinion as resulting from abuse, it's still going to be very unpleasant for them.

Then there is a subset of the women that will end up in what essentially is a house arrest, because the pressure they face not to be in public without a burqa is too great for them to go outside. Note that this is hard for the police to deal with, you can't really force people to leave their home if they don't want to - and unless she says that her husband is keeping her imprisoned, they can't do anything about it.

Not to mention the ones for whom this will essentially turn into fine for being muslim, that they will occasionally get.

Finally there is the very, very few that is unlucky enough to have a sufficiently intolerant social circle that they currently have to wear a burqa, despite disliking it, but which are lucky enough to have a social circle that is just tolerant enough for this law to make them accept the woman not wearing a burqa.

In the three first cases, which I am fairly convinced are the far, far majority this abusive pressure is only going to increase in the next generation, as the state is pushing these people away, alienating them where the state should instead have helped them to be more tolerant. So not only is this law not helping the current generation of abuse victims, it is making the abuse worse both for this generation and the next.
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