I think we're heading a wee bit off topic with the stoning of women and of gays thing. Bit of difference between stoning and not carrying a mitre.
But lets talk women in the priesthood.
The first question is, what do we do about it?
Well, we can yell, scream and call them names. This gets nobody anywhere, really. Not when it comes to cultural change. The stonning of women and of gays I'm right behind you on. The response from Canadian Christians to Uganda's proposed stoning of gays there was not kindly. Rage, I think, is the right term.
However, where people aren't getting hurt and where the vast majority of the normal population is onside, taking your stance of playing condescending overlord, especially as a whitey marching into Africa, will not win you any kudos. In fact, the best thing that could happen for the women's rights movement within the Church, somedays, is if people like Esoteric Wombat just STFU.
Its sort of like the support William Wilberforce got from Jacobins and Republicans when he was trying to fight the slave trade. Great. Just what I always wanted. Help from traitors and enemies of the state.
So, trying to convince conservatives of the viability of a transformation of the church to be more inclusive, the last thing we need is people like you or E.W. screaming that religion is evil, and that you support reform to make the church more in line with atheism.
Great. I wonder who will read that at Synod? The female Bishop of Nova Scotia, or the Primate of Uganda?
Which is why I accused buddy of dishonest issue shopping. EW doesn't give a rat's ass about the church, and I doubt you do either. In fact, you want it dead and gone. So why are you pretending to care about reform of the faith?
Unless you're thinking of mimicing the far-right strategy of polarising all of society into atheist and fanatical extremes, you're doing nobody and good.
Second, where do you get off passing judgement simultaneously over billions of people representing dozens of ancient cultures and composing hundreds of countries, ranging from Martin Luther King Jr. to Ghandi?
Now, I know you likely have a high school diploma, and maybe even a college degree. But pretending you have even the remotest credibility to pass such sweeping and total moral judgement over over MLK, Ghandi, Mother Theresa, the Underground Railroad, Equiano, W Wilberforce, John Newman, Tommy Douglas, the entire Salvation Army, the old folks working at the homeless shelters at churches, the soup kitchen people, the folks at Red Crescent, the courageous ladies working at womens' schools in Afghanistan, a whole lot of allied vets and dead from WWII, the Vatican resistance agents who smuggled Jews out of Rome during the holocaust, the priests who opposed Hitler and were killed in the Holocaust, bunches of Jews killed in the Holocaust, most Jews period and so many other people because you read a couple of books from the comfort of Hawaii in highschool.... well, it strikes me as arrogant and ridiculous. Neither of us are the moral or intellectual equivalent of many of those you so brazenly contemn.
I'm not saying we should agree with everything such people say. But as human beings, we owe them the respect and dignity of our opposition being as resolute as it is respectful and consciensious, and made in full knowledge of our own human fallibility. I also understand your discomfort with inequality. I share the same discomfort. But the character of a person is never black and white, and to cast one's judgement of people in those terms is utterly unfair.
And I never said "always trust people not to be evil." I said that humility and self-understanding dictate that we understand we are only human.
Being only human means that on average we are no smarter or better than humanity. Sometimes we're right, sometimes we're wrong.
When we come accross something we don't like or don't understand, we have a duty to understand first and judge only afterwards. As Dylan would say, "Don't criticise what you don't understand."
Ironically, you and EW are guilty of the same crime as the Catholic Church, lashing out with intollerance from a place of willful ignorance.
As a progressive, you of all people should know that it is such arrogance from which tyranny is born.
EsotericWombat wrote: @Le1bn1z: You admittedly didn't understand what I said, and then proceeded to extrapolate an entire attitude towards the rest of the world from it. Classy.
Your entire contribution thus far has consisted of personal attacks based on.... nothing from what I can see. If I had to guess, I'd say you know nothing of this subject save what you've read from others here and what you've checked on Wikipedia, if you've gone that far.
I understood what you said. Sweeping, obscene insults of whole civilizations are hard to miss, as are accusations of ignorance backed up by absolutely no positive contribution of your own.
So, if you have nothing useful to say, shut up and leave the topic to people who care enough to have a serious conversation about it.
thc is a far better advocate for your position than you. Leave it to thc.