12 year old as bullfigther

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Telchar
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Re: 12 year old as bullfigther

Postby Telchar » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:44 pm UTC

I was poking fun at the idea of using science to test for morality.
Zamfir wrote:Yeah, that's a good point. Everyone is all about presumption of innocence in rape threads. But when Mexican drug lords build APCs to carry their henchmen around, we immediately jump to criminal conclusions without hard evidence.

redgrowth
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Re: 12 year old as bullfigther

Postby redgrowth » Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:31 am UTC

Telchar wrote:According to my sciency textbook, bovines rank between 43 and 67 on the Kleischenscheimer morality strip test.

Side-topic, what is the kleischenscheimer morality strip test? The only google result for Kleischenscheimer is your post.

Glass Fractal
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Re: 12 year old as bullfigther

Postby Glass Fractal » Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:42 am UTC

redgrowth wrote:
Telchar wrote:According to my sciency textbook, bovines rank between 43 and 67 on the Kleischenscheimer morality strip test.

Side-topic, what is the kleischenscheimer morality strip test? The only google result for Kleischenscheimer is your post.


Dr. Han Kleischenscheimer was a semi-famous psychologist from the 1870s. He developed a way of using calculus to determine the morality of a set of given actions, progressively revealing more about the situation to gauge more objectively. The so called Kleischenscheimer strip was a piece of folded paper that the test giver would lengthen as the test went on (showing the next change in variables). In 2006 a method for using the test on non-humans was developed using an fMRI and video display. They tested cows, sheep, and dogs.

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Telchar
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Re: 12 year old as bullfigther

Postby Telchar » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:25 pm UTC

redgrowth wrote:
Telchar wrote:According to my sciency textbook, bovines rank between 43 and 67 on the Kleischenscheimer morality strip test.

Side-topic, what is the kleischenscheimer morality strip test? The only google result for Kleischenscheimer is your post.


/headdesk

Also, points awarded to Glass Fractal.
Zamfir wrote:Yeah, that's a good point. Everyone is all about presumption of innocence in rape threads. But when Mexican drug lords build APCs to carry their henchmen around, we immediately jump to criminal conclusions without hard evidence.

General_Norris
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Re: 12 year old as bullfigther

Postby General_Norris » Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:41 am UTC

^ As I said several times, you don't need to eat meat, you can go vegetarian. So you are killing animals for fun either way.

Also if your limited amount of symphaty disallows you to care about someone getting killed, that's a big problem.

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tastelikecoke
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Re: 12 year old as bullfigther

Postby tastelikecoke » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:18 pm UTC

jupanul wrote:Damn it. Why was i playing with toy cars when i could to this instead

Good! Let's kill ourselves rather than play with cheap toys!

I don't really agree with those guys who go vegan just because of animal cruelty and the Kleischenscheimer morality strip test already confirms that eating meat is is morally right.

Czhorat
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Re: 12 year old as bullfigther

Postby Czhorat » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:53 pm UTC

General_Norris wrote:^ As I said several times, you don't need to eat meat, you can go vegetarian. So you are killing animals for fun either way.


And, as others have said many times, a distinction can be drawn between killing for food, even if not necessary, and killing for sport. A distinction can also be drawn between humane, painless killing and a painful, drawn-out torturous killing.

I'm not sure I understand your position. Do you believe that bullfighting is morally wrong, but a non-vegetarian diet is also morally wrong? Or is your point that both are moral? If the latter, how do you answer the assertion that the moral equivalence between humane killing and torture is a false one? Because without drawing that equivalence, I fail to see how you have an argument.

Of course, if you want to make the argument that both meat-eating and ritualistic killing for entertainment are immoral, there might be a case to be made. That doesn't appear to be what you're doing.

General_Norris
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Re: 12 year old as bullfigther

Postby General_Norris » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:46 pm UTC

This is my philosophy in a nutshell: Killing a moral being is wrong, killing a sentinent being is not.

So either you don't kill and don't harm animals becaue it's wrong or killing, causing pain and blowing up a leg to watch the animal suffer are not wrong because they are not moral beings.

In other words, there's no middle ground. If it's right to kill them it's right to harm them for fun and viceversa. It all depends if they are moral beings or not.

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Zamfir
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Re: 12 year old as bullfigther

Postby Zamfir » Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:19 pm UTC

Czhorat wrote:
General_Norris wrote:^ As I said several times, you don't need to eat meat, you can go vegetarian. So you are killing animals for fun either way.


And, as others have said many times, a distinction can be drawn between killing for food, even if not necessary, and killing for sport. A distinction can also be drawn between humane, painless killing and a painful, drawn-out torturous killing.


I don't really see that big distinction between killing animals for unnecessary food and killing them for entertainment. I personally don't think killing animals is deeply bad in any way. Bad enough that you need a bit of justification, but both steaks and fun are good enough for me. There are people who argue that steaks are enough justification, but the spectacle of bullfighting isn't. As far as I can tell, that only makes sense if you enjoy bullfights less than steaks.

I do see the difference between a painful death and a peaceful death, and for me this counts against bull fights. But not in an absolute sense. If enough people enjoy it, and it's done with enough respect, that's good enough for me.

Sure, some people do care about animal suffering much more than I do. And that can be turned into an internally consistent framework. But a lot of people are completely OK with animal suffering, as long as they don't have to watch it.


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