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Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:18 am UTC
by LuNatic
poxic wrote:Edit: unable to find a ref, since "salt cook add people extra more chef unsalted bloody hell argh" produced ambiguous results.


Meanwhile, someone in Googles customer profiling division is undergoing traumatic experience counselling. :lol:

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:51 am UTC
by Amarantha
They can have my birthday present when they pry it out of my cold, dead hands!

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:29 am UTC
by Jesse
You realise that they're not banning salt, they're just banning chefs from using it, you'll still be able to apply how much salt you personally would like. It just gives us salt haters a choice to be salt free.

My favourite McDonalds is one in England that doesn't put salt on their chips, you can apply it yourself. So I get salt free chips.

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:21 pm UTC
by EmptySet
Jesse wrote:You realise that they're not banning salt, they're just banning chefs from using it, you'll still be able to apply how much salt you personally would like. It just gives us salt haters a choice to be salt free.


So ask them not to put salt in your meal. Or require them to ask if you want salt or not. Or make "no salt" the default, but let them use salt if I request it. Sprinkling salt on top when you get the meal is not the same as cooking with salt in the first place, and "I don't like salt!" isn't a reason for it to be illegal for those who do like it to have the chef include it for them.

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:43 pm UTC
by netcrusher88
Jesse wrote:You realise that they're not banning salt, they're just banning chefs from using it, you'll still be able to apply how much salt you personally would like. It just gives us salt haters a choice to be salt free.

Yeah... that's still a bad idea. Many dishes do require a certain amount of salt, even if it winds up being something like a couple of teaspoons in a half-gallon of whatever. It's easy to overdo it - and it's fast food restaurants that consistently intentionally overdo it and are the target of campaigns like this - but any chef worth their salt (ahem) knows how not to.

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:55 pm UTC
by Virtual_Aardvark
Salt crusted meats for example are delicious and impossible to make at the table. This would really impact any form of haute cuisine in the state.

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:13 pm UTC
by Rysto
Jesse wrote:You realise that they're not banning salt, they're just banning chefs from using it, you'll still be able to apply how much salt you personally would like. It just gives us salt haters a choice to be salt free.

Salt is an essential ingredient in many recipes. Salting food after it has been cooked does not give the same flavour as adding the salt during cooking.

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:23 pm UTC
by Outchanter
Yeah, that would kind of be like icing a loaf of bread and expecting it to taste like cake.

http://blog.timesunion.com/tablehopping ... t-cooking/

Spoiler:
Ortiz admits that prior to introducing the bill he did not research salt’s role in food chemistry, its effect on flavor or his bill’s ramifications for the restaurant industry. He tells me he was prompted to introduce the bill because his father used salt excessively for many years, developed high blood pressure and had a heart attack.

“I think salt should be banned in restaurants. I ask if a dish has salt in it, and if I does, I get something else that doesn’t have salt,” Ortiz tells me, before going on to say that he has eaten, and expects he will continue to eat, among other things, ham, cheese and bread in restaurants, all of which contain salt.

Spoiler:
“It’s a preposterous notion,” says baker extraordinaire Michael London, whose Mrs. London’s Bakery has been a Saratoga Springs institution for more than three decades. “Not using salt would make breads insipid and anemic,” London says. Besides lacking flavor, saltless bread would also have different texture, density and other characteristics as a result of its altered chemistry, London tells me.

In food scientist Shirley O. Corriher’s “CookWise: The Hows and Whys of Successful Cooking,” she writes that even the minimal salt used in baking — as little as one-third of a teaspoon per cup of flour — plays four crucial roles in the development of dough: It enhances flavor, controls bacteria, slows yeast activity and strengthens dough by tightening gluten.

“The small amounts we are dealing with … are not enough to add significantly to dietary salt intake,” Corriher writes.

Spoiler:
Salt also inhibits the growth of microbes that spoil cheese and is essential to the development of a cheese’s structure and, as a result of its effect on enzymes, of the ripening and flavor of cheese, McGee writes.

Spoiler:
“That [bill is] insane,” says Christopher Allen Tanner, a culinary professor at Schenectady County Community College in Schenectady. “You can’t make hams without salt, you can’t make bacon without salt,” he tells me. “There would be no pickles, no relishes, no — no just about everything.”

In response to Ortiz’s bill, the Center for Consumer Freedom in Washington put out a statement that said, in part:

Assemblyman Ortiz must not cook for himself because his bill shows his ignorance of how food is made. Forcing a restaurant to stop using salt is the equivalent of telling a carpenter to stop using nails or a barber to not use scissors.

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:25 pm UTC
by Admiral Valdemar
After scrutinising my eating habits over the last year, I've been avoiding the urge to pepper my food with salt... and pepper. I just go for the latter, and if I do require salt to taste, it must be lo-salt. Given the shocking levels of the stuff in foods already, many people are really overdoing it. There was an article in the papers over here not long ago about some eateries on the high-street having fresh and cartoned soups containing as much salt per serving as over a dozen packets of plain crisps, i.e. a lot.

I had a co-worker who started drinking two to three litres of water a day. When I pointed out that his GP's guidelines prompting him to take up this habit included the water already in the food he ate daily, he cut it out. The same thing should be done with all foods.

Anyway, this ban is the total opposite of the trans-fat one, i.e. retarded.

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:53 pm UTC
by Dauric
Jesse wrote:You realise that they're not banning salt, they're just banning chefs from using it, you'll still be able to apply how much salt you personally would like. It just gives us salt haters a choice to be salt free.

My favourite McDonalds is one in England that doesn't put salt on their chips, you can apply it yourself. So I get salt free chips.


Reread that statute, Chef's can't use salt -at all- as seasoning -or-ingredient. That means that , as SWGlassPit noted is necessary to get bread to rise and bake properly, fresh baked bread cannot be baked on-site because they need salt as an ingredient. I'm not a chef, but I'm sure that's not the only fresh-prepared food that requires some quantity of salt. Remember, that wording is an absolute ban on the use of salt by any restaurant except as a seasoning by the customer. They can't use it in any way in the preparation of any foodstuff, period.

Grand upshot: more foods will have to be shipped from processing centers (which is -NOT- a health improvement). Mom-and-Pop businesses that pride themselves on making ingredients themselves will have to find a new source of pre-prepared product, and in the process will lose their niche, and then their businesses.

It's common of this kind of law, lots of good intentions combined with not a lot of thought makes for utterly stupid repercussions.

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:00 am UTC
by Jesse
I still don't think it's a good idea, because of reasons stated (I have worked as a chef, I know about the varied uses of salt). What I intended to get across was the part of it I would enjoy, and I think the part that should be implemented. Additional salt should be a choice, rather than the standard it generally is.

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:13 am UTC
by LuNatic
Jesse wrote:You realise that they're not banning salt, they're just banning chefs from using it


Yeah, fish and chip shop owners could be charged with a-salt and batter-y.

*Ba-dum-tish*

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:27 am UTC
by netcrusher88
Jesse wrote:Additional salt should be a choice, rather than the standard it generally is.

I don't disagree, but I don't think it's possible to specify a sufficiently broad standard of "additional".

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:02 am UTC
by General_Norris
Anda again, nobody forces you to go to a restaurant. We don't ban milk in food because some people are intolerant to lactose. At most, you can force them to ask if you want salt or not but then they should be forced to ask way too many things. Just tell them if you don't want any salt, there's no need for this.

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:49 pm UTC
by Texas_Ben
First they came for the trans-fats, and I said nothing
for I did not eat trans-fats.

Then they came for the salt, and I said nothing,
for I did not eat salt

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:57 pm UTC
by netcrusher88
Come now, trans fats are (admittedly somewhat mildly) toxic and easily replaced using other substances that don't taste different. Salt... there's, uh, potassium chloride I guess. I don't know how it tastes though, or if high potassium is worse than high sodium. The issue here is not the use of the substance as it is with trans fats, it's systemic overuse of the substance. Something which law can't really do anything about properly.

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:53 pm UTC
by Cynical Idealist
Texas_Ben wrote:First they came for the trans-fats, and I said nothing
for I did not eat trans-fats.

Then they came for the salt, and I said nothing,
for I did not eat salt


And then you died, because salt is vital to life.

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:05 pm UTC
by PossibleSloth
netcrusher88 wrote:The issue here is not the use of the substance as it is with trans fats, it's systemic overuse of the substance. Something which law can't really do anything about properly.


I suppose you could tax the ever-loving hell out of it. I bet McDonald's would use less salt if it cost $80/lb. Either that or food prices would sky-rocket and we end up starving the poor.

On second thought, forget I said anything...

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:53 pm UTC
by Texas_Ben
PossibleSloth wrote:I suppose you could tax the ever-loving hell out of it. I bet McDonald's would use less salt if it cost $80/lb. Either that or food prices would sky-rocket and we end up starving the poor.

No no, I like it. We solve budget problems, health problems, and homelessness. 3 for 1!

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:52 am UTC
by phillipsjk
For some reason that reminds me of Ghandi's protest of the salt tax in India.

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:47 pm UTC
by EmptySet
netcrusher88 wrote:Salt... there's, uh, potassium chloride I guess. I don't know how it tastes though, or if high potassium is worse than high sodium.


Potassium is also unhealthy in high concentrations. If I recall correctly, excessive potassium causes heart problems and nausea.

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:41 pm UTC
by SWGlassPit
FWIW, Potassium Chloride is what most states use as the third drug in the three-drug lethal injection cocktail. It also tastes really bizarre and almost nothing like salt, as anyone who has actually tasted something like Morton Lite can tell you.

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:59 pm UTC
by Fathomless
Just wait until those crazy seasoning lobbyists get word of this....

And you thought the paprika crowd was crazy.

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:05 pm UTC
by olubunmi
netcrusher88 wrote:Salt... there's, uh, potassium chloride I guess. I don't know how it tastes though, or if high potassium is worse than high sodium.



KCl is used to replace salt, so is MgCl2 and some others too.
All have their own (dis)advantages.

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:39 pm UTC
by mercutio_stencil
Salt makes food taste good, the evidence is pretty unequivocal at this point. A friend of mine went to culinary school, and whenever the...head chef teacher type person... would taste her dishes, he would always throw in another handful of salt, and lo and behold, it always tasted better.

If you want a more scientific approach, salt can enhance sweetness, reduce bitterness, and enhance perception of flavour. I don't have my textbooks with me, so I can't pull up a citation, but rest assured, it's been studied, and salt is a good thing. Not to mention, it's pretty hard to avoid, since it does occur naturally in just about every food.

In fact, same thing with MSG. In reasonable quantities it's perfectly harmless, and makes savoury food taste better. All of the 'Chinese restaurant syndrome' type things are pretty much psychosomatic, or brought on by eating too much. The MSG has virtually nothing to do with it. Of course, MSG is also present in large quantities in many 'natural' food products, most cooked meat has a substantial amount. Soy Sauce is a great source as well. And you know what? It really does taste good, at least in the right context.

As far as trans-fats, yeah, they are unhealthy. But, it wasn't penny pinching that made the food industry use trans-fats. It was costumer demand for long lasting, shelf stable, fatty snack foods. Trans-fats provide a level of functionality that is difficult to match with cis fats. They have a much better texture, and resist oxidation. Most of the trans-fat replacements are complex mixes of anti-oxidants, polysaccharides and otherwise modified fatty acids. Food companies have gotten pretty creative in providing the consumer foods that violate natural principles.

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:05 pm UTC
by phillipsjk
Technically, Potassium Chloride is a salt as well. If you want to known what food tastes like if it is used as a substitute, try "low sodium" prepackaged food or drink (assuming you know what the normal sodium version tastes like). I think KCl has a bitter, metallic after-taste.

If you want to scare irrational people, you can tell them Potassium Chloride is radio-active. The trace Potassium-40 has a half-life of "1,260,000,000 years."

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:43 pm UTC
by BlackSails
phillipsjk wrote:
If you want to scare irrational people, you can tell them Potassium Chloride is radio-active. The trace Potassium-40 has a half-life of "1,260,000,000 years."


You arent being scary enough. Potassium chloride is so radioactive it has a half life of OVER A BILLION YEARS!

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:09 am UTC
by Aikanaro
BlackSails wrote:
phillipsjk wrote:
If you want to scare irrational people, you can tell them Potassium Chloride is radio-active. The trace Potassium-40 has a half-life of "1,260,000,000 years."


You arent being scary enough. Potassium chloride is so radioactive it has a half life of OVER A BILLION YEARS!

Thank you for providing me with a new hobby :twisted:

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:20 am UTC
by phillipsjk
Bob Rowland wrote:The potassium isotope of interest is a radioactive isotope, K40. It is present in all potassium at a very low concentration, 0.0118 %


So even if all of the Potassium-40 decays, more than half will remain until the protons themselves decay. Protons have such a long half-life, it is not known if they actually decay or not.

I think "The same Radioactive Potassium Chloride found in food is used for lethal injection!" would be more accurate.

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:37 am UTC
by achan1058
You know, I would have thought that the article comes from Orion or something.

cjmcjmcjmcjm wrote:
Amie wrote:Ban ajinomoto (monosodium glutamate), not salt! :(

If there's one substance I'd ban form the country and one only, it would be this. I can't stand MSG-laden Chinese food for more than the first few bites and it nigh on impossible to find a decent Chinese buffet without massive amounts of MSG nearby
I think a lot of that has to do with catering for European/American tastes. My parent's home cooking does not use much MSG (often none) at all.

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:45 am UTC
by Giant Speck
Outchanter wrote:
THE FUTURE wrote:New York Restaurants Forbidden to Add Ingredients to Food.

Ortiz says the plan to give patrons an EasyBake oven and a pile of raw ingredients will allow them to decide on every detail of their meal. "It'll be almost as fun as cooking at home."

Mongolian grills are AWESOME.

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:48 am UTC
by achan1058
Wait, this is old? Who necroed the thread?

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:05 am UTC
by poxic
A spammer. Y'know, the usual.

/now 95% less salt-free!

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:19 pm UTC
by HermanBlount
This topic is filled with many double-plus ungood sentiments. Are you forgetting that the collective consciousness of the the state always makes better decisions than your petty, individual desires? Salt has ALWAYS been banned.

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:39 pm UTC
by Vieto
what? Big Brother has increased the salt rations to 0g?

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:52 pm UTC
by PossibleSloth
Vieto wrote:what? Big Brother has increased the salt rations to 0g?

As opposed to state-mandated dialysis 3 times a day. Those were some rough times...

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:05 pm UTC
by siggyrcman
That's ridiculous. Especially considering for certain food items there are only certain optimal times to ad salt, like in a pastry layered dish. Also considering though excess sodium isn't great for you, unlike most minerals there is no serious side effects to excess amounts, most of it is flushed out of your system.

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:12 pm UTC
by redgrowth
Which salt are they banning? I'm assuming only NaCl because it's the most common and they mention sodium in the article. This can easily be replaced with other salts such as KI, and should taste very similar if not identical. No clue if different salts can replace NaCl in bread baking.

Re: New York State to ban SUBLETTING YOUR HOME

Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:59 am UTC
by phonon266737
Why, NYS, why? I've been here 6 years for my Undergrad and Graduate degrees. I was just about to buy a house on Lake Oneida, to rent out to others during the summer as well as use myself. If I can't rent it out to someone for a week, guess what? There are other states out there.

New York, NY, United States (AHN) - New York lawmakers are voting this week on a bill that would make it illegal for any homeowner or renter to sublet for less than a month. If made into law, there will be an across the board ban on short-term rentals.


Opponents of the bill say it is not fair that senators who receive perks from the hotel industry are allowed to determine the fate of lodging agreements entered into by New York City tenants or apartment owners with individual parties.

Craigslist or lodging websites such as AirBnB, HomeAway and Roomorama offer visitors an opportunity to save money and live like a real New Yorker instead of renting rooms in pricey Manhattan hotels.

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7019140576

Re: New York State to ban SALT

Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:19 am UTC
by TheGrammarBolshevik
phonon266737 wrote:Why, NYS, why?

According to the article:

Proponents of the bill say that it's an issue of safety, giving examples of fire codes and housing maintenance regulations. Additionally there are tax issues at hand; they claim that it's illegal to run an apartment building as a hotel.

Of course, there's not very much information there. But that's an argument for finding a better source, not for condemning New York over what might actually be a pretty reasonable decision.