Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

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Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Felstaff » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:38 pm UTC

Two brothers have been ordered to have their ears and noses cut off, after they kidnapped a woman and did the same to her for refusing to marry one of them, in accordance with a strict Islamic eye-for-an-eye law that is rarely sentenced and apparently 'never carried out' (until now?). They are also getting life in prison.

Linky.

On the one hand, they kidnapped and mutilated a young woman (their cousin). On the other hand; barbaric punishment?
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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby PhoenixRider » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:48 pm UTC

Hey, they got what they deserved.

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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Zauderer » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:12 pm UTC

PhoenixRider wrote:Hey, they got what they deserved.


And this is why we need a constitutional protection against "creative" forms of punishment.

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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby the_bandersnatch » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:37 pm UTC

I'm really torn on this one: on one hand, it is a barbaric form of punishment and the truism of "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind", but on the other hand, they deliberately forced this horrific act on their victim, it seems only just for retribution to be in like kind.
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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Decker » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:45 pm UTC

I've never been a fan of "eye-for-eye" justice. It's just lowering yourself down to their level.

One thing that concerns me is that this is NOT actually "eye-for-eye" justice. This is "eye-for-eye and life in prison." justice. Yes, what they did was horrible, but I think life in prison pretty much should cover it.
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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Gelsamel » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:58 pm UTC

PhoenixRider wrote:Hey, they got what they deserved.


Hey, that woman totally got what she deserved!




Do you see how abso-fucking-lutely abhorrent and ridiculous that statement is? This type of attitude is a big reason why there is so much suffering and fucked up things happening in the world. A world focused on retribution and "who deserves what" and not on rehabilitation and preventing harm devolves into the terrible cesspool you see here.
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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:00 pm UTC

I'd like to point out that the interpretation of 'eye for an eye' I've heard had more to do with compensating the victim the worth of an eye (are they a sculptor and you broke their hand? You owe them some wages). The notion of putting out someones eye because they blinded someone else is barbaric to say the least. Even if metted out as a deterrent punishment, it's barbaric.

On the other hand, they committed some truly barbaric shit. I dunno about doing it to them, but I can't say I'm terribly sympathetic.
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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Heisenberg » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:01 pm UTC

Felstaff wrote:a strict Islamic eye-for-an-eye law that is rarely sentenced and apparently 'never carried out' (until now?).

BBC News this morning suggested that previous sentences had been appealed and commuted, and that these individuals would have a similar right to appeal the sentence.

I agree with Decker. This was a terrible thing to do to another human being. The Pakistani people should not reduce themselves to doing this horrible thing to two more people. Lock 'em up.

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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Jahoclave » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:20 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
Felstaff wrote:a strict Islamic eye-for-an-eye law that is rarely sentenced and apparently 'never carried out' (until now?).

BBC News this morning suggested that previous sentences had been appealed and commuted, and that these individuals would have a similar right to appeal the sentence.

I agree with Decker. This was a terrible thing to do to another human being. The Pakistani people should not reduce themselves to doing this horrible thing to two more people. Lock 'em up.


Plus, it's kind of freaky to think a world nuclear power is going to start pulling the eye for an eye style of justice.

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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Heisenberg » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:27 pm UTC

Jahoclave wrote:Plus, it's kind of freaky to think a world nuclear power is going to start pulling the eye for an eye style of justice.

Ah, yes. The old "nuke for a nuke" system.

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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Decker » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:48 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:Plus, it's kind of freaky to think a world nuclear power is going to start pulling the eye for an eye style of justice.

Ah, yes. The old "nuke for a nuke" system.

I was under the impression that this is pretty much the status quo right now. I don't wish to find out.

Anyway, I agree that it's hard to be sympathetic for these guys. They did a terrible thing and it's easy and understandable to get VERY riled up about such things. But there's a difference between being sympathetic for someone and making sure that proper justice is handed out instead of what they "deserve." What they "deserve" is completly subjective. More emotional and violent people will say "Yeah! Cut 'em up! They did it to an innocent woman, so they deserve the same thing!"

This is why we frown upon trial by mob.
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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby olubunmi » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:04 pm UTC

Gelsamel wrote:
PhoenixRider wrote:Hey, they got what they deserved.


Hey, that woman totally got what she deserved!


I don't see why you'd abduct your own cousin for no reason, so she obviously did something wrong in their eyes.
Other than that, it's a really barbaric crime which should be severely punished, but I'm strictly against the eye for an eye principle.
There shouldn't be an equally barbaric punishment for this crime, as that'll lead to nothing good. I prefer the life sentence.

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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Heisenberg » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:19 pm UTC

olubunmi wrote:I don't see why you'd abduct your own cousin for no reason, so she obviously did something wrong in their eyes.

The article says she refused to marry one of them. I extrapolate that to mean that when they told her she was marrying Steve, she said no. Then Steve said "You have to marry me, or I will cut you up so bad no one else will ever want you, and you'll die cold and alone." She must have answered this with a resounding "Fuck you, Steve" and our boy Steve followed through on his threat.

This guy and his friend are terrible people and unfit to live among us. They'll be thrown in jail, but the judge's vindictive eye-for-an-eye sentence will likely not be carried out.

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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby olubunmi » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:30 pm UTC

Nevermind that comment than, I didn't read the article before commenting.

On a side point: Apparently this law dates back only about 20 years, where it was passed during a military regime, but it was carried out so far.
It makes you wonder why this law still exists, as it only leads to conflicts like this.

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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Princess Marzipan » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:46 pm UTC

Decker wrote:More emotional and violent people will say "Yeah! Cut 'em up! They did it to an innocent woman, so they deserve the same thing!"

This is why we frown upon trial by mob.

Well, while I am emotional and violent at times (because seriously that boss is so cheap; guess I need a new controller), I like to think I'm more contemplative when it comes to issues like this one. I can't find a micro reason that this punishment would bother me - I'm bothered by its being an addition to a prison sentence, but as its own punishment, it's certainly apt.

I think I can't see a reason wrong with it happening, but I can see plenty of reasons wrong with actually implementing it as a justice system, though. First there's false positives, and there's also the fact that we'd have to have a set of people whose JOB IT IS to violate rights to punish criminals. And then not all crimes can simply be reversed onto the perpetrator, like rape. And ... yeah, I don't think I'm okay with a society that bankrolls state-sponsored rapists, even if they're only used on 'actual' convicted rapists.

It would be perfect poetic justice for any crime to be revisited upon its perpetrator, but there's just no setup for that that doesn't cause more problems than it could solve, so we have to make do with more methodical means.
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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Decker » Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:00 pm UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:
Decker wrote:More emotional and violent people will say "Yeah! Cut 'em up! They did it to an innocent woman, so they deserve the same thing!"

This is why we frown upon trial by mob.

Well, while I am emotional and violent at times (because seriously that boss is so cheap; guess I need a new controller), I like to think I'm more contemplative when it comes to issues like this one. I can't find a micro reason that this punishment would bother me - I'm bothered by its being an addition to a prison sentence, but as its own punishment, it's certainly apt.

I can't agree with this statement. Besides being a deterrent, it really dosn't resolve the situation. What it DOES to it makes the rest of us feel better about it. That's it really. Also, mutilating these people and then releasing them back out into society would be a bad, bad idea. People like this tend to be bitter, and that would not help matters. I would say the better punishment would simply be life in prison, as it removes people who would do this from society. That acts as just a good a deterrent I would say.

I'm glad you see that this isn't a viable justice system though. I'm certainly not arguing that you do. I just think that this type of punishment really dosn't put anything good back into the terrible event that happened.
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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Silas » Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:17 pm UTC

Decker wrote:Besides being a deterrent, it really dosn't resolve the situation. What it DOES to it makes the rest of us feel better about it. That's it really.


I disagree. I think this is a good step (narrowly) toward proving that Pakistani courts are willing to give women (this woman, at least) something close to equal justice. If these men had mutilated their (male) neighbor because he wouldn't let them sodomize him, how sure are you that the matter would have gone to the courts, instead of his family taking private revenge?

Settling for a life sentence would send a terrible message: do it to a man, and his family will fuck you up so bad, people won't want to look at you for the rest of your life. But a woman- well, you'll be in prison, but the courts will keep things under control.
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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Decker » Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:28 pm UTC

Silas wrote:Settling for a life sentence would send a terrible message: do it to a man, and his family will fuck you up so bad, people won't want to look at you for the rest of your life. But a woman- well, you'll be in prison, but the courts will keep things under control.


I think your understating "life in prison" here.

Realisticly, no, I don't expect it would just go to court. But I really, really think it SHOULD just go to court.
This is a very small step towards equality, yes, but it's really a terrible way to do it.
"We would normally mutilate people in revenge for a man, so we're going to do it for a woman as well to show equality." That dosn't sound very helpful.
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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Gelsamel » Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:33 pm UTC

You're pushing equality by commending the mutilation of men committing crimes against women because they might have been treated badly if their victim was a man?

Why not push a justice system that treats them both equally and fairly, or would that not satisfy our bloodlust?
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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Silas » Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:43 pm UTC

Decker: maybe so. But I don't like that having her assailants prosecuted is the second-best course, that the woman gets because she doesn't have access to the locally premier justice system.

Gelsamel wrote:Why not push a justice system that treats them both equally and fairly, or would that not satisfy our bloodlust?

Because that's just not in the cards. I think Pakistan's judiciary simply does not have the oomph to compel powerful families to forgo private revenge in favor of public justice. If they can't restrain the strong from taking brutal revenge, they're faced with a hard choice: either match that revenge with harsh justice, or accept that crimes against some people warrant more punishment than crimes against others. I can't blame a judge for choosing the former.
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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Sourire » Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:47 pm UTC

I'm really hesitant to say much about what the Pakistani government should or shouldn't do.

That said, this is unsettling as all hell. Because, like most forms of criminal justice I've heard of so far, mutilating these men misses a point (for me). Namely, that the fact they'd have their ears and nose removed does not undo the damage to the victim. And I really don't see a case that it'd help "rehabilitate" them. In a system that advocates time in jail, the victim is similarly not helped, but at least their aggressors are "safely" held away.
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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Gelsamel » Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:59 pm UTC

Silas wrote:
Gelsamel wrote:Why not push a justice system that treats them both equally and fairly, or would that not satisfy our bloodlust?

Because that's just not in the cards.

So, like, back when America enslaved black people and equality legislation would never have passed you would have commended any enslavement of white people? Mutilating people is okay as long as it means people are apparently more equal? I guess when everyone is equally mutilated we'll be truly equal.
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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby The Reaper » Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:09 pm UTC

Gelsamel wrote:
Silas wrote:
Gelsamel wrote:Why not push a justice system that treats them both equally and fairly, or would that not satisfy our bloodlust?

Because that's just not in the cards.

So, like, back when America enslaved black people and equality legislation would never have passed you would have commended any enslavement of white people? Mutilating people is okay as long as it means people are apparently more equal? I guess when everyone is equally mutilated we'll be truly equal.

Is there a slavery godwin? Because you just pulled it.

protip: slavery still exists, and there ARE white people in it as slaves, along with every other race.

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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Gelsamel » Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:11 pm UTC

And I'll pull the real thing too;
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Edit:

"protip: slavery still exists, and there ARE white people in it as slaves, along with every other race."

Which is exactly the point. Why is anyone supporting the MUTILATION of people because it will, in this one case, make women apparently less entirely oppressed?


Edit2: Typo.
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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Cynical Idealist » Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:23 pm UTC

The strange thing is that this violates the hell out of the principle of an eye for an eye. The concept of "an eye for an eye" seems barbaric and excessive to us, yes, but it is also a limiter. Someone takes out one of your eyes? You aren't allowed to take out both of theirs, but you know that most people would want to escalate like that. These two brothers cut off the ears and nose of a woman? Them dealing with both equal retribution (their ears and noses cut off) and a lifetime jail term is clearly a violation of that principle. That's an eye-and-a-life-sentence for an eye.
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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Azrael » Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:36 pm UTC

Alternatively, how pedantic should we get? Should they each lose only one ear and a nostril?

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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Aikanaro » Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:57 pm UTC

Originally I thought it was literally someone destroyed someone else's eye, and had to lose one as punishment. In which case I might be okay, IF the eye was removed, and used as a replacement. Basically, a kind of organ fine, paid to the plaintiff. Would anyone else be cool with that, as a form of reparations? I know, I know, slippery slope....
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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby smw543 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:16 pm UTC

Silas wrote:I disagree. I think this is a good step (narrowly) toward proving that Pakistani courts are willing to give women (this woman, at least) something close to equal justice. If these men had mutilated their (male) neighbor because he wouldn't let them sodomize him, how sure are you that the matter would have gone to the courts, instead of his family taking private revenge?

Have you considered the possibility that this only went to court because private revenge wasn't feasible (they're family)? My understanding is that private revenge on behalf of one's daughter/sister/etc. isn't exactly unprecedented.

Aikanaro wrote:Originally I thought it was literally someone destroyed someone else's eye, and had to lose one as punishment. In which case I might be okay, IF the eye was removed, and used as a replacement. Basically, a kind of organ fine, paid to the plaintiff. Would anyone else be cool with that, as a form of reparations? I know, I know, slippery slope....

The odds of being a match are low, and more importantly, that's impossible (unless the extent of the damage was just the destruction of the victim's cornea). But even in a hypothetical situation where it were possible, I'd still say no. Aside from the acknowledged slippery slope ("You accidentally poked out John's eye, now you have to give him one of yours"), it ignores the other main reason why people are opposed to this implementation of eye for an eye—there is no rehabilitation. You just end up with a really pissed off criminal with poor depth perception (also, his reduced ability to function will only further impede his ability to get a job, increasing the chance of repeat offense).
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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Decker » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:23 pm UTC

Silas wrote:Decker: maybe so. But I don't like that having her assailants prosecuted is the second-best course, that the woman gets because she doesn't have access to the locally premier justice system.

Well, yeah, I can agree with you there. I just think that this is a bad way to go about fixing this particular problem.
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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby The Reaper » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:24 pm UTC

I think Aikanaro's idea is neat. if you take the eye from the criminal, put it in the organ marketplace, and get another eye from the organ marketplace that matches the victim, and replace it. It's like an organ exchange. :3

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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Decker » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:26 pm UTC

The Reaper wrote:I think Aikanaro's idea is neat. if you take the eye from the criminal, put it in the organ marketplace, and get another eye from the organ marketplace that matches the victim, and replace it. It's like an organ exchange. :3

I'll admit it's better than simply eye for an eye. At least the victim is getting back what he lost.
It's still not a ideal option.
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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Jahoclave » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:31 pm UTC

Decker wrote:
Heisenberg wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:Plus, it's kind of freaky to think a world nuclear power is going to start pulling the eye for an eye style of justice.

Ah, yes. The old "nuke for a nuke" system.

I was under the impression that this is pretty much the status quo right now. I don't wish to find out.

Well the question is, do I retaliate and kill millions of innocent people as well. My hope is that the sane person would answer, no, it's not worth harming more people.

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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby fjafjan » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:35 pm UTC

Though the actual plans are probably more along the lines of five nukes for a nuke.
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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Decker » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:37 pm UTC

fjafjan wrote:Though the actual plans are probably more along the lines of five nukes for a nuke.

It's like a replaying a loan with interest! Only explodier.
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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Freakish » Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:38 pm UTC

olubunmi wrote:
Gelsamel wrote:
PhoenixRider wrote:Hey, they got what they deserved.


Hey, that woman totally got what she deserved!


I don't see why you'd abduct your own cousin for no reason, so she obviously did something wrong in their eyes.
Other than that, it's a really barbaric crime which should be severely punished, but I'm strictly against the eye for an eye principle.
There shouldn't be an equally barbaric punishment for this crime, as that'll lead to nothing good. I prefer the life sentence.


They're getting that too.
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Re: Pakistan court orders eye-for-an-eye justice

Postby Decker » Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:09 pm UTC

Freakish wrote:
olubunmi wrote:
Gelsamel wrote:
PhoenixRider wrote:Hey, they got what they deserved.


Hey, that woman totally got what she deserved!


I don't see why you'd abduct your own cousin for no reason, so she obviously did something wrong in their eyes.
Other than that, it's a really barbaric crime which should be severely punished, but I'm strictly against the eye for an eye principle.
There shouldn't be an equally barbaric punishment for this crime, as that'll lead to nothing good. I prefer the life sentence.


They're getting that too.

He knows that already. That's why he said THE life sentence. Not A life sentence.
I was angry with my friend. I told my wrath. My wrath did end.
I was angry with my foe. I told it not. My wrath did grow.


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