Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby aleflamedyud » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:35 am UTC

EMTP wrote:
aleflamedyud wrote:Yeah, it means posting something intended to fan the flames of hatred and bitter controversy


That accusation falls flat when you are the one supplying the bulk of the hatred and bitterness.

These issues can be discussed civilly. If some people (not necessary you -- sometimes you chose to be responsible) chose to go apeshit whenever the subject of Israel is raised, that is on them, not the critics.

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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby Pez Dispens3r » Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:12 am UTC

fjafjan wrote:
Pez Dispens3r wrote:I'm sure it had nothing to do with the sensationalist non-descriptive topic title.
I agree, it was a bad choice. It's been changed.
Thank you.

Telchar wrote:1. I don't think anyone is disputing that the punishment was lax. The guy still holds a position as lead pathologist for Israel iirc. I don't personally have a problem with it, however I probably don't have as big a problem with the crime as some people. I think organ donation should be mandatory.

2. Your standard of proof is terrible EMTP. Yoni is calling out obvious embellishment and bias in the story and asks for corroberation, and you are asking him to prove that Israel doesn't routinely spend years investigating people who throw rocks. Yes, they put them in jail, just like people who throw rocks at police in the US get put in jail, but we don't have year round manhunts. Either admit that the story has obvious holes but isn't necessarily wrong, or bring up evidence, but don't try a terribly lame switch of the burden of proof.

3. I have to agree with Yoni that most journalists wouldn't embellish stories with such specifics (identifying the brand of soda, smoking...) especially when the article makes it seem like this is quoting eye witnesses. Either this is what the eyewitnesses said, which makes it somewhat suspect as the level of detail would be unusual, or the reporter is not reporting the statements correctly. This may not seem like that big a deal, but the charges levied are serious.
Telchar, you're making very good sense. EMTP, yoni reasoned parts of the article are questionable, and he made sense. We can't prove the journalist's version is incorrect, but if the journalist's account is to be taken as factual we'd need to see the source for his information. If you think it's obvious the journalist was being truthful, then that's a claim you can back up with evidence, as it should be quite provable if it's a regular practice.

yoni45 wrote:You can wave the mod-stick all you want, but the claims of a blood libel or antisemitism regarding that article are quite apt.

They're really not. I'll tell you right now I'm not a fan of Israel, but that's because their rampant nationalism scares the bejesus out of me. I care about their Judaism where it makes this nationalism worse and I care about their race not one bit. You can be biased against Israel and still not be anti-Semitic.
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby yoni45 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:28 am UTC

Pez Dispens3r wrote:They're really not. I'll tell you right now I'm not a fan of Israel, but that's because their rampant nationalism scares the bejesus out of me. I care about their Judaism where it makes this nationalism worse and I care about their race not one bit. You can be biased against Israel and still not be anti-Semitic.


That's most definitely true -- and frankly, I don't really care whether it's one or the other, as the motive generally makes no practical difference regarding a person's argument...

But you have an article that seems to be heavily fictionalized to a point that it's obvious that it's the author engaging in it, and that at the same time incriminates this particular group of people with otherwise horrific crimes which have heavy nazi-ish parallels... I'd say that in such a scenario, claims of anti-semitism are rather reasonable.

(while still practically irrelevant -- my issue was mostly with having a mod-stick pushing "don't revert to anti-semitism" when I'd say it's a completely reasonable claim)
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby Telchar » Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:46 am UTC

Pez: Thank you. I also agree that Israeli ultranationalism is rivaled only by parts of the US, and really scares me. And thank you for the post.

I'm not going to parse out your argument into sentence fragments..(This is the part where EMTP posts something about me not having arguments so he wins). I will, however, attempt to demonstrate to you the absurdity of your argument.

EMTP wrote:
Yeah, no. You make an assertion, you introduce some evidence.


Prove it.

I'm going to number my points from now on. Please respond to numbers, rather than parsing sentence fragments and quote-sniping. It's against forum rules iirc and it's fucking annoying to read.

1.As to the American police analogy, as much as I appreciate you using it to go on some diatribe about how Israel treats rock throwers, you still don't address the underlying analogous issue. You said before

EMTP wrote:
Yoni, it's up to you to prove your assertions, not to others to disprove them. You made the assertion that Israel doesn't investigate stone throwers over an extended period of time (although they certainly have no problem putting them in jail for a long time, or killing them outright), while the source said it did. You prove it.


I pointed out that Americans throw rock throwers in jail, but that doesn't mean we would pursue them for years. In case you aren't aware, that's what your sentence implies.

2. Putting things like obvious in "" and saying "sweet little Israel" just illustrates your complete lack of objectivity and therefore credibility. Please provide citations for everything you say starting now or I won't respond.

3. Yoni's claim that Israel doesn't spend years tracking down rock throwers meets a prima facie standard of proof. It makes absolutely no sense of Israel to do that on military, political, or economic grounds. If you are going to call him out, and insist that Israel, in fact, does hunt down rock throwers at great expense to itself then you need to provide us with some evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, so please come prepared.

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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby Felstaff » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:08 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:a particularly juicy story

Sounds like someone's got a desirin' for some vampirin'
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby jestingrabbit » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:55 am UTC

This sort of thing goes on everywhere with a pretty high frequency. Here's a link about the UK

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... theft.html

Here's a link about the US

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=5230544

I'm pretty sure there was a story about something like this happening in the ACT or it might have been a happening in sydney, but I can't seem to find the right search terms.

To put this under the banner of the israel/palestine conflict is beyond ridiculous, and I can't help but feel there's more than a little antisemitism here.
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby PhoenixRider » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:32 pm UTC

Now-a-days it would seem as if you can go wild on Russia, Iran and America's problems, but if you touch Israel, and god knows they have a lot of problems to sort out, then you're an anti-semite. Seriously?

This is monstrous and makes me wonder if they're still doing this. Probably not, but there's barely any transparency in their government.

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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby AvgNYer68 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:00 pm UTC

If you make a claim about the entire Israeli Army, an army made up mostly of Jews, with the minority being mostly Druze (ie. muslim and christian arabs are almost never fond in the army), then you are making a generalized claim about a very large group of Jews, especially since these are accusations stemming from at least the 90's, so you are including reservists in these accusations.
Then, when you take into account the large number of Jews internationally who support the IDF in either all or part of it's actions, and you throw posters here into the mix who are getting into personal arguments with people named yoni and aleflamedyud, then you can at least sort of see that the posters here are being mildly anti-semitic. Israel is a Jewish state, thus it represents Jews (whether or not Jews want to be represented by Israel). attacking the actions of a central part of it's culture is anti-semitism.

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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby jestingrabbit » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:02 pm UTC

PhoenixRider wrote:Now-a-days it would seem as if you can go wild on Russia, Iran and America's problems, but if you touch Israel, and god knows they have a lot of problems to sort out, then you're an anti-semite. Seriously?


When you single israel out for this, when plenty of other countries have had similar problems very recently (here's a case from the US circa 04-06), and then you relate it to the israel/palestine conflict by treating it like its a part of some anti palestinian agenda, what is that if not seeing every story about israel as about how badly israelies treat palestinians? When you stereotype a group of people and make everything you hear about them fit into some preexisting narrative, instead of looking trying to understand it in the context of similar occurrences elsewhere, yeah, that's antisemitic.

I mean, I'm not a fan of the settlements, and I don't think that Israel's right to defend itself extends nearly as far as they take it (helicopter gunship attacks to take out single individuals that end up killing tens of bystanders is completely unacceptable in my book), but when you see everything every israeli does as a part of that conflict I can't see that as anything but antisemitic.
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby Zauderer » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:11 pm UTC

AvgNYer68 wrote:attacking the actions of a central part of it's culture is anti-semitism.


So you're basically saying that killing innocent people and harvesting their organs is a central part of Jewish culture.

It's hard to get any more anti-semitic than this.

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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby ianf » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:21 pm UTC

AvgNYer68 wrote:If you make a claim about the entire Israeli Army, an army made up mostly of Jews, with the minority being mostly Druze (ie. muslim and christian arabs are almost never fond in the army), then you are making a generalized claim about a very large group of Jews, especially since these are accusations stemming from at least the 90's, so you are including reservists in these accusations.
Then, when you take into account the large number of Jews internationally who support the IDF in either all or part of it's actions, and you throw posters here into the mix who are getting into personal arguments with people named yoni and aleflamedyud, then you can at least sort of see that the posters here are being mildly anti-semitic. Israel is a Jewish state, thus it represents Jews (whether or not Jews want to be represented by Israel). attacking the actions of a central part of it's culture is anti-semitism.


You can't make a blanket statement like that. If someone is attacking the army because of their actions as an army, then that is not anti-semitic. If someone is attacking the army because it is comprised mainly of Jews then you are being anti-semitic. But to say that all attacks on the army are anti-semitic is simply not a valid position to take. The context is all important here.

Assume that the majority of the NBA is black (I don't know if this is true or not, but let's assume it to be for the sake of this argument). By your reasoning, anyone who doesn't like basketball is a racist.

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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby Jahoclave » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:40 pm UTC

ianf wrote:
AvgNYer68 wrote:If you make a claim about the entire Israeli Army, an army made up mostly of Jews, with the minority being mostly Druze (ie. muslim and christian arabs are almost never fond in the army), then you are making a generalized claim about a very large group of Jews, especially since these are accusations stemming from at least the 90's, so you are including reservists in these accusations.
Then, when you take into account the large number of Jews internationally who support the IDF in either all or part of it's actions, and you throw posters here into the mix who are getting into personal arguments with people named yoni and aleflamedyud, then you can at least sort of see that the posters here are being mildly anti-semitic. Israel is a Jewish state, thus it represents Jews (whether or not Jews want to be represented by Israel). attacking the actions of a central part of it's culture is anti-semitism.


You can't make a blanket statement like that. If someone is attacking the army because of their actions as an army, then that is not anti-semitic. If someone is attacking the army because it is comprised mainly of Jews then you are being anti-semitic. But to say that all attacks on the army are anti-semitic is simply not a valid position to take. The context is all important here.

Assume that the majority of the NBA is black (I don't know if this is true or not, but let's assume it to be for the sake of this argument). By your reasoning, anyone who doesn't like basketball is a racist.

Exactly. It's entirely possible to hate a country for doing dickish things regardless if that country happens to be filled with Jews or not. By the reasoning going on in this thread I must really hate white people because I extremely dislike the religious right.

Israel has a really bad case of nationalism and there's a lot of people who really dislike overt nationalism.

Besides, I don't like Iran, that doesn't mean that I'm anti-Muslim. You don't go around claiming that any time somebody criticizes the government of Iran they're harboring anti-Islamic feelings. Equating criticism of a state with criticism of the state religion is silly, stupid, and annoying. I could spent every waking moment criticizing Israel's policy and that doesn't mean a damn thing as to my feelings towards the Jews in the same like that criticizing Iran doesn't mean a damn thing about Muslims. So cut the fucking crap.

When you single israel out for this, when plenty of other countries have had similar problems very recently (here's a case from the US circa 04-06), and then you relate it to the israel/palestine conflict by treating it like its a part of some anti palestinian agenda, what is that if not seeing every story about israel as about how badly israelies treat palestinians? When you stereotype a group of people and make everything you hear about them fit into some preexisting narrative, instead of looking trying to understand it in the context of similar occurrences elsewhere, yeah, that's antisemitic.

No, it's only anti-semitic if his reason for doing so was a hatred of the Jews rather than a dislike of Israeli foreign policy. Israeli is not a synonym for the Jewish people.

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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby aleflamedyud » Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:55 pm UTC

yoni45 wrote:
Pez Dispens3r wrote:They're really not. I'll tell you right now I'm not a fan of Israel, but that's because their rampant nationalism scares the bejesus out of me. I care about their Judaism where it makes this nationalism worse and I care about their race not one bit. You can be biased against Israel and still not be anti-Semitic.


That's most definitely true -- and frankly, I don't really care whether it's one or the other, as the motive generally makes no practical difference regarding a person's argument...

But you have an article that seems to be heavily fictionalized to a point that it's obvious that it's the author engaging in it, and that at the same time incriminates this particular group of people with otherwise horrific crimes which have heavy nazi-ish parallels... I'd say that in such a scenario, claims of anti-semitism are rather reasonable.

(while still practically irrelevant -- my issue was mostly with having a mod-stick pushing "don't revert to anti-semitism" when I'd say it's a completely reasonable claim)

To elaborate, I'd like to note the way that the blood-libel issue comes up, in Jewish minds.

In old Christendom and now the modern Dar al-Islam, a legend has/had spread around that the Jews murder gentile babies and use their blood as an ingredient in the matzah breads ritually consumed during the week-long Jewish holiday of Passover. Or in other words, the blood libel is the notion that Jews eat gentile babies. Of course it's not remotely true, but since when has that stopped a good story?

Now... the Aftonbladet article is to the blood libel as West-Side Story is to Romeo & Juliet -- adapted for modern times, but still capturing the same themes and playing to the same tropes. Does everyone see why the Jewish world went into a hissy-fit over this, particularly since even given the heinous, immoral actions of Dr. Hiss and his team the original Aftonbladet piece remains untrue?
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby Telchar » Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:11 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:
Now... the Aftonbladet article is to the blood libel as West-Side Story is to Romeo & Juliet -- adapted for modern times, but still capturing the same themes and playing to the same tropes. Does everyone see why the Jewish world went into a hissy-fit over this, particularly since even given the heinous, immoral actions of Dr. Hiss and his team the original Aftonbladet piece remains untrue?


The article doesn't "remain untrue". It is certainly suspect, but as far as I'm aware, the article states that more investigation should be done into possible organ-legging going on currently in Israel which, given the body of evidence suggesting Israel as a center point for worldwide organ-legging networks, it at least seems reasonable to investigate more. It also seems reasonable to not have the person responsible for the incident, which the government denied, still holding a position of authority in your government.

Summary: I'm all for more investigation as the article suggests, but the claim that they target Palestinians for organs has no basis in current evidence. I also don't know how Hiss still has a job.
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby EMTP » Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:26 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:
yoni45 wrote:
Pez Dispens3r wrote:They're really not. I'll tell you right now I'm not a fan of Israel, but that's because their rampant nationalism scares the bejesus out of me. I care about their Judaism where it makes this nationalism worse and I care about their race not one bit. You can be biased against Israel and still not be anti-Semitic.


That's most definitely true -- and frankly, I don't really care whether it's one or the other, as the motive generally makes no practical difference regarding a person's argument...

But you have an article that seems to be heavily fictionalized to a point that it's obvious that it's the author engaging in it, and that at the same time incriminates this particular group of people with otherwise horrific crimes which have heavy nazi-ish parallels... I'd say that in such a scenario, claims of anti-semitism are rather reasonable.

(while still practically irrelevant -- my issue was mostly with having a mod-stick pushing "don't revert to anti-semitism" when I'd say it's a completely reasonable claim)

To elaborate, I'd like to note the way that the blood-libel issue comes up, in Jewish minds.

In old Christendom and now the modern Dar al-Islam, a legend has/had spread around that the Jews murder gentile babies and use their blood as an ingredient in the matzah breads ritually consumed during the week-long Jewish holiday of Passover. Or in other words, the blood libel is the notion that Jews eat gentile babies. Of course it's not remotely true, but since when has that stopped a good story?

Now... the Aftonbladet article is to the blood libel as West-Side Story is to Romeo & Juliet -- adapted for modern times, but still capturing the same themes and playing to the same tropes. Does everyone see why the Jewish world went into a hissy-fit over this, particularly since even given the heinous, immoral actions of Dr. Hiss and his team the original Aftonbladet piece remains untrue?


The trouble is that the idea of "blood libel" can be (and has been) stretched to fit a wide variety of accusations, some of which are valid. For example, the killing of Mohammed Al-Dura by Israeli gunfire has been described as a blood libel (http://israelisoldiersmother.blogspot.c ... ntury.html). An episode of of mass fainting in the West Bank was attributed (foolishly) to poisoning by Israel; also described as a modern blood libel (http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp476.htm). A story of an orthodox rabbi claiming one could violate the Sabbath only to save a Jewish, not gentile, life, has been described as, you guessed it, a blood libel (http://www.edah.org/backend/coldfusion/ ... thorid=433).

Basically, any time someone Jewish is accused of something other Jews feel they are too nice to engage in, the specter of a blood libel comes up. Similarly, any time anyone brings up the highly effective lobbying by American Zionists, or the favorable way Israel is treated in the American press, someone associates this with the anti-Semitic claim that Jews control the media. Discuss American Jews so passionately partisan for Israel that they conduct espionage on its behalf, and sure as the sun rises, someone will accuse you of beating the "dual loyalty" drum. Honestly, there are not very many places you can step outside Zionist dogma and not be accused of being the reincarnation of the leader of medieval pogrom.

The accusation would be more respected if it were more rare.
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby yoni45 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:33 pm UTC

ianf wrote:Assume that the majority of the NBA is black (I don't know if this is true or not, but let's assume it to be for the sake of this argument). By your reasoning, anyone who doesn't like basketball is a racist.


This would be the equivalent of falsely accusing the PD of a very black community of lynching a bunch of whites while torturing them and making them pick cotton. Or of a master plan of trying to seduce white women against their will.

Chances are, such allegations would be racist in nature.
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby smw543 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:35 pm UTC

Jahoclave wrote:By the reasoning going on in this thread AvgNYer68's post I must really hate white people because I extremely dislike the religious right.

Fix'd. AvgNYer68 was the only person ITT that made the stupid claim that attacking Israel's actions is inherently antisemitic. Even if we accept that the previous accusations of antisemitism were unfounded (most were debatable, but that's beside the point), that doesn't mean they were made solely on the basis of the reasoning put forth by AvgNYer68. Can we not get sidetracked by one really stupid post? (Unlikely, I know, but I figured I could at least ask.)

Jahoclave wrote:
When you single israel out for this, when plenty of other countries have had similar problems very recently (here's a case from the US circa 04-06), and then you relate it to the israel/palestine conflict by treating it like its a part of some anti palestinian agenda, what is that if not seeing every story about israel as about how badly israelies treat palestinians? When you stereotype a group of people and make everything you hear about them fit into some preexisting narrative, instead of looking trying to understand it in the context of similar occurrences elsewhere, yeah, that's antisemitic.

No, it's only anti-semitic if his reason for doing so was a hatred of the Jews rather than a dislike of Israeli foreign policy. Israeli is not a synonym for the Jewish people.

It's not antisemitism per se, but it is what you might call anti-Israelism. Compare if my reaction to a news story that Mexican officials caused civilian deaths through negligence, and I wrote up a story about "lazy Mexican officials." Not only would I be mischaracterizing their actions, I would be doing so in a way that plays into a racist trope (even though there is a sizable minority in Mexico who aren't Hispanic).

Following alef's point, I'd add that playing off the blood libel theme was central to the perception of the story (and an obvious move from a sensationalist's perspective). As was pointed out earlier in this thread, the people who did this weren't monsters, they did it in a misguided attempt to help people. I agree that they were in the wrong, but I'd bet most of the people who were outraged by this would be considerably less so if it were presented in a factual, unbiased way.

EDIT: Regarding the question of organ trafficking, this article implies that the New York "matchmaker," whom it seems Aftonbladet wanted to imply was the supply end of the Israeli stolen organ business, actually was a matchmaker. He would find Israeli's willing to donate a kidney, pay them $10k and fly them over here, then have them donate their kidneys to buyers. His actions clearly have nothing at all to do with those of Dr. Hiss, who took organs from the dead and as far as I can tell, put them into the donation pile.
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby tzvibish » Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:44 pm UTC

I think there are two distinct issues here.

1) The Aftonbladet article - Was it blood-libelous? It's debatable, certainly. But it has nothing to do with Israel actually harvesting organs. The ends don't justify the means. The means was an immensely bad piece of journalism that sensationalizes and fictionalizes actions of the IDF in which a palestinian rock thrower was brutally shot in the back. Regardless of whether or not there actually was organ harvesting being done on a small scale, this article was an atrocious abomination of journalism, and should be condemned for what it is. A tabloid.


2) The actual story - Nobody is saying that what members of the IDF did was a good thing. Nobody. An investigation was carried out, and practice was stopped, and people were punished.

So, if you think that the Israelis were railing on the Swedish tabloid for blood libel just to cover up a mass organ traffiking conspiracy, then I have nothing to say to you. It must be nice where you are.
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby fjafjan » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:18 pm UTC

1) The Aftonbladet article - Was it blood-libelous? It's debatable, certainly. But it has nothing to do with Israel actually harvesting organs. The ends don't justify the means. The means was an immensely bad piece of journalism that sensationalizes and fictionalizes actions of the IDF in which a palestinian rock thrower was brutally shot in the back. Regardless of whether or not there actually was organ harvesting being done on a small scale, this article was an atrocious abomination of journalism, and should be condemned for what it is. A tabloid.

Except the new devlopment could explain the testiments made in the Aftonbladet article. People were reporting that their deceased relatives were missing organs, and from there went on to correctly pressure they were killed for their organs. As for the scale I believe we don't know the scale, even thoug clearly it wasn't factory line type dealings. But I will agree the article was pretty crap.

2) The actual story - Nobody is saying that what members of the IDF did was a good thing. Nobody. An investigation was carried out, and practice was stopped, and people were punished.

The practise seems to have "been stopped" several times in the past, and as for punishment I don't think continued employment and an official position is much of a punishment for desecrating corpses.

It's not antisemitism per se, but it is what you might call anti-Israelism.

it's not antisemitism period The thing is being anti-Israel has nothing to do with being anti-jewish. The fact that it's a Jewish state is completely irrelevant. For example I am sometimes accused of being anti-American, now would you say this means I am "anti-Christian"? Or if I am biased against Egypt would this mean I am "anti-arab"? It's absurd.
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby EMTP » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:35 pm UTC

tzvibish wrote:
1) The Aftonbladet article - Was it blood-libelous? It's debatable, certainly. But it has nothing to do with Israel actually harvesting organs. The ends don't justify the means. The means was an immensely bad piece of journalism that sensationalizes and fictionalizes actions of the IDF in which a palestinian rock thrower was brutally shot in the back. Regardless of whether or not there actually was organ harvesting being done on a small scale, this article was an atrocious abomination of journalism, and should be condemned for what it is. A tabloid.


I agree, minus maybe half the adjectives. It wasn't a good piece of journalism. A journalist has an obligation not just to write down what people say, but to seek confirmation from independent sources. Wanting to "get something out there" to stir up a response and perhaps generate that evidence is not an acceptable excuse, although it is becoming more and more of a common practice (see also: Fox News).

The Israeli reaction -- recalling their ambassador, demanding that Sweden stop the newspaper from printing the story, and leveling accusations of anti-Semitism at all and sundry -- was counterproductive and wrongheaded. (Sometimes I think Israel draws as much attention as possible to stories like these in order to deflect attention from equally lurid tales which are absolutely true -- shooting civilians as they wave white flags, state-funded rabbis endorsing murdering gentile babies, strapping Palestinians onto the front of vehicles as human shields, using white phosphorus against civilian targets, and so on.)

2) The actual story - Nobody is saying that what members of the IDF did was a good thing. Nobody. An investigation was carried out, and practice was stopped, and people were punished.


Person, singular, as far as we know. And he was demoted rather than fired. Granting that what we know about the organ stealing doesn't make the Swedish story right, and recognizing and respecting that Israel has acknowledged the error and stopped the practice, it does suggest that we shouldn't use our idea of what Israelis are capable of to disregard stories, as in "Oh, they would never do that, it's so lurid and cruel (like harvesting a dead prisoner's skin), it's obviously a fantasy." It may or may not be, and the evidence should decide. But people are capable of a lot, and sometimes Israelis do lurid and cruel things.

Journalists should be responsible, and defenders of Israel should avoid recourse to "No Israeli could have done such a terrible thing, and only an anti-Semite would think so."
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby tzvibish » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:45 pm UTC

So, before you get all hyperbole-y again, the article was bad. Good, Ok, we agree.

Now, if you want to argue about the punishments, go right ahead, split hairs all you want. I don't know the rules about these things.

I don't think that anyone was saying "No Israeli would ever do such a thing". It was more like "Stop incriminating our soldiers for doing horrible things when you don't have any evidence to back it up with." This is what we call slander. It is illegal.
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby aleflamedyud » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:49 pm UTC

If you want to know why Dr. Hiss still has a job, I'm guessing it's because he remains the best pathologist in Israel. They probably demoted him because they couldn't actually find anyone good enough to take over if they jailed him.

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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby Jessica » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:50 pm UTC

EMTP wrote: But people are capable of a lot, and sometimes Israelis people do lurid and cruel things.
No need to specifically say Israelis in this instance.
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby guenther » Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:52 pm UTC

Jahoclave wrote:No, it's only anti-semitic if his reason for doing so was a hatred of the Jews rather than a dislike of Israeli foreign policy. Israeli is not a synonym for the Jewish people.

Welcome to the world of redefinition. If we apply the standards that people use for sexism, racism, etc., then your intent matters not. If your ideas are promoting a system that sustains antisemitism, then it's antisemitic. It doesn't matter how valid your arguments are.
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby EMTP » Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:22 pm UTC

tzvibish wrote:This is what we call slander. It is illegal.


Actually, you call it libel. Slander is spoken. Didn't you see Spider Man?

I don't think that anyone was saying "No Israeli would ever do such a thing". It was more like "Stop incriminating our soldiers for doing horrible things when you don't have any evidence to back it up with."


I refer you higher in the thread as to what was said any what wasn't. When you say (and this was said) that we can discount eyewitness accounts because it's not credible that Israeli soldiers would act that way, you are in effect asking us to disregard evidence based on what Israelis are capable of -- and some people went further, to argue that anyone who does not disregard such evidence must be an anti-Semite.

Eyewitness accounts are evidence, they are just not sufficient evidence for a responsible journalist to go to press with with allegations like these. But tabloid journalism from a tabloid is not surprising, and it's not anti-Semitism.
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby Philwelch » Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:59 pm UTC

fjafjan wrote:it's not antisemitism period The thing is being anti-Israel has nothing to do with being anti-jewish. The fact that it's a Jewish state is completely irrelevant. For example I am sometimes accused of being anti-American, now would you say this means I am "anti-Christian"? Or if I am biased against Egypt would this mean I am "anti-arab"? It's absurd.


If an American denounces the NAACP or affirmative action too loudly, he's going to be widely seen as a racist. If an American opposes abortion, he's seen as misogynistic.

The whole idea of Israel is that the Jews have a safe place somewhere in the world where they won't become the victims of genocide. In retrospect it doesn't seem to have worked out that well, but on one level, to be anti-Israel is to be against what many Jews have seen as the best chance of protecting themselves from annihilation. Now, you might have a lot of reasons to oppose that idea, but a big obvious reason might be that you're anti-Semitic. It's not entirely that unique or unfair that critics of Israel have to work harder to defend themselves from the appearance of anti-Semitism. Especially considering how many actual anti-Semites (hint: all of the anti-Semites) seem to be on their side.

guenther wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:No, it's only anti-semitic if his reason for doing so was a hatred of the Jews rather than a dislike of Israeli foreign policy. Israeli is not a synonym for the Jewish people.

Welcome to the world of redefinition. If we apply the standards that people use for sexism, racism, etc., then your intent matters not. If your ideas are promoting a system that sustains antisemitism, then it's antisemitic. It doesn't matter how valid your arguments are.


Yeah, this forum is filled with a huge double standard here. It's the standard hypocrisy though.
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby tzvibish » Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:07 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:
I don't think that anyone was saying "No Israeli would ever do such a thing". It was more like "Stop incriminating our soldiers for doing horrible things when you don't have any evidence to back it up with."


I refer you higher in the thread as to what was said any what wasn't. When you say (and this was said) that we can discount eyewitness accounts because it's not credible that Israeli soldiers would act that way, you are in effect asking us to disregard evidence based on what Israelis are capable of -- and some people went further, to argue that anyone who does not disregard such evidence must be an anti-Semite.

Eyewitness accounts are evidence, they are just not sufficient evidence for a responsible journalist to go to press with with allegations like these. But tabloid journalism from a tabloid is not surprising, and it's not anti-Semitism.


So make up your mind. If you read the article alone, would you believe the allegations? If it's a tabloid, then you should not believe a word it says. It's worse than anti-semitism, it's dishonesty. I'm asking you to disregard the entire article as a horrible piece of journalism and not to base any conclusions from it. Eyewitness accounts are evidence, but only when exhibited in an honest medium.
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby Zauderer » Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:20 pm UTC

Philwelch wrote:Especially considering how many actual anti-Semites (hint: all of the anti-Semites) seem to be on their side.


Uhm, no. For instance, there is a German group called "Nationale Sozialisten für Israel" (National Socialists for Israel) which supports Israel (on the notion that it has "earned" its right of existence by winning wars) and advocates deportation of all German Jews to Israel.

There is also an anti-Islamic group (of which I can't remember the name) that claims German Jews are conspiring with Muslims to "islamize" Germany, but supports Israel because of their wars against Islamic countries.

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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby aleflamedyud » Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:34 pm UTC

guenther wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:No, it's only anti-semitic if his reason for doing so was a hatred of the Jews rather than a dislike of Israeli foreign policy. Israeli is not a synonym for the Jewish people.

Welcome to the world of redefinition. If we apply the standards that people use for sexism, racism, etc., then your intent matters not. If your ideas are promoting a system that sustains antisemitism, then it's antisemitic. It doesn't matter how valid your arguments are.

To raise the more important point than abstract theories of what constitutes racism, sexism, or antisemitism, whenever demonization of Israel has created widespread rises in "anti-Zionist" sentiment as measured by opinion polls, internet traffic, published opinion pieces, etc., physical attacks on Jews and Jewish communities - both in Israel and in the Diaspora - have risen in direct correlation. I don't like to debate about theoretical racism or sexism (as anyone who has listened to my opinions on affirmative action knows), but when your supposedly not-racist movement leads to attacks on black people it's racist in effect and when your supposedly not-antisemitic movement leads to attacks on Jewish people it's antisemitic in effect. Intent does indeed matter much of the time, but quite frankly the portion of the anti-Zionist movement with antisemitic intent seems non-trivial.

Remember how the "anti-Zionist" movement reacted last summer when they learned about Brooklyn rabbis trafficking kidneys? They connected it right up to the Aftonbladet article via the fact that the donors came from Israel (and appear, in the end, to actually be voluntary live donors) and went into attack mode. We all knew it smelled then, and it smells now.
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby EMTP » Sat Dec 26, 2009 5:33 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:To raise the more important point than abstract theories of what constitutes racism, sexism, or antisemitism, whenever demonization of Israel has created widespread rises in "anti-Zionist" sentiment as measured by opinion polls, internet traffic, published opinion pieces, etc., physical attacks on Jews and Jewish communities - both in Israel and in the Diaspora - have risen in direct correlation.


Citation needed.

Don't you find it ironic that in order silence criticism of violence, persecution, and oppression of minorities by Israel, you are holding up as a shield the threat of anti-Semitic attacks in the Diaspora? I believe the original idea was to use Israel to defend Jews from anti-Semitism, rather than the other way around.

Intent does indeed matter much of the time, but quite frankly the portion of the anti-Zionist movement with antisemitic intent seems non-trivial.


It's unsurprising that it seems that way to you -- elsewhere you have claimed that you have never heard reasonable criticism of Israel from abroad; it's all unfair. I think you may need to consider the possibility that you're not entirely objective about the matter.

I would argue that it is exactly trivial; of course, if you give anti-Semites juicy red meat like Jewish settlers burning mosques (4), the IDF shooting old women waving white flags, and rabbis endorsing murdering "gentile babies" (5), anti-Semites are going to make use of those things. But the characteristic behavior of the racist -- as you can observe around you in the broad-based anti-Arab racism of Israeli Jews (1,2,3) -- is that they will use whatever materials are at hand to justify their hatred. If you give them evidence of cruelty and evil (suicide bombings), of course they will use it. If there isn't any, they will conjure up something ("They won't endorse our right to a Jewish state!").

Remember how the "anti-Zionist" movement reacted last summer when they learned about Brooklyn rabbis trafficking kidneys?


There's no such thing as the "anti-Zionist movement" (it'd be nice if there were). There are a lot of people who don't like racist violence, colonialism, land theft, and so on. They naturally, unless they have some compelling political programming to the contrary, become anti-Zionist. But they don't necessarily like each other or work together. You don't like it when the more lurid and evil acts of your fellow Zionists are attributed to you, so why try and paint "anti-Zionists" with one brush?

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EMTP, yoni reasoned parts of the article are questionable, and he made sense.


Yoni made a variety of unsupported assertions, and went on to pompously demand that the people he made them too prove him wrong. It was classic fallacious reasoning heavily seasoned with obnoxiousness, and once called out, he was completely unable to support any of the garbage he spouted. End of story.

Telchar wrote:Please respond to numbers, rather than parsing sentence fragments and quote-sniping. It's against forum rules iirc and it's fucking annoying to read when you shred my "argument" in a few short sentences.


Fix'd.

I pointed out that Americans throw rock throwers in jail, but that doesn't mean we would pursue them for years. In case you aren't aware, that's what your sentence implies.


Nope, you're wrong again. Now your credibility is zero on Israel-Palestine, and English grammar.

2. Putting things like obvious in "" and saying "sweet little Israel" just illustrates your complete lack of objectivity and therefore credibility. Please provide citations for everything you say starting now or I won't respond.


Now who's quote sniping? A) You haven't made a point here, just another meaningless assertion about rhetoric. B) You not responding to me is not a bug, it's a feature.

You demand proof, but you provide no proof. You demand numbers, but you provide no numbers. You complain about quote sniping three sentences before you engage in it. In essence, you have written an essay denouncing itself. And whilst demanding citations, your entire post doesn't include a single citation, so I'm going to take your advice, rather than follow your example, and not waste any more time on it.

1) http://www.handinhand12.org/index.cfm?c ... pageID=167

2) "Israeli anti-Arab racism 'rises'" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7136068.stm

3) "‘Marriage to an Arab is national treason’" http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/ ... 78,00.html

4) In the spirit of the season, let's give props to Israel's chief rabbi, who went to the site and had the guts to compare the arson to the Kristallnacht, as it deserved (http://www.vosizneias.com/44833/2009/12 ... stallnacht). Other rabbis and the prime minister denounced the attack as well.

5) This guy, Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira, has fallen afoul of Israel's anti-incitement laws in the past, but the Israeli government continues to fund his radical yeshiva.
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby Spacemilk » Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:34 pm UTC

This thread is hilariously bad. The funniest thing I have seen so far has been EMTP finishing up a 7-quote tree (with some of the quotes having one-word or one-sentence responses) calling someone else a hypocrite because they were apparently "quote-sniping" with two fucking quotes. Ahhh thank you for my morning dose of funny!

In spite of your asinine and annoying tactics though, EMTP, I must say sometimes you are quite subtle when incorporating blatant racism into your posts. "OH HAY GUSY I'M NOT RACIST BUT LOOK AT THE AMMO YOU ARE GIVING ME I MEAN RACISTS!" Other times, though, your racism is like a brick to the face:
EMTP wrote:There's no such thing as the "anti-Zionist movement" (it'd be nice if there were).

Just wow. Reported for racism, can we lock this thread for the love of God/Yahweh/Allah/any deity that will get this thread locked?
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby clintonius » Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:51 pm UTC

When two concurrent posts are reported, each by the author of the other, it makes me think that both parties need to cool off. EMTP and Spacemilk, you are both blurring the lines between corrective discourse and attacks. Please take 24 hours before posting in this thread again.

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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby aleflamedyud » Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:12 am UTC

OK, who honestly believes that no such thing as an anti-Zionist movement exists?
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby PhoenixRider » Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:00 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:OK, who honestly believes that no such thing as an anti-Zionist movement exists?

I don't even understand the question.

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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby tzvibish » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:44 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:OK, who honestly believes that no such thing as an anti-Zionist movement exists?


I believe they call themselves Hamas. Some fringe group that nobody cares about. No reason to pay attention to them or anything.
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:59 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:3) "‘Marriage to an Arab is national treason’" http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/ ... 78,00.html

This is irrelevant unless you can find examples of Israeli's marrying Palestinians and being welcomed with open arms into the West Bank/Gaza region. Here, I'll get you started on your search:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6405799.stm
Spoiler:
Then they tried living in the occupied West Bank, but some Palestinians made life difficult for them.

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aleflamedyud wrote:OK, who honestly believes that no such thing as an anti-Zionist movement exists?

I don't even understand the question.

Can you be more specific? You don't understand the combination of words? You don't understand the notion of an anti-Zionist movement? You don't understand how aleflamedyud could have missed EMPT's quote?
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby tzvibish » Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:05 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:4) In the spirit of the season, let's give props to Israel's chief rabbi, who went to the site and had the guts to compare the arson to the Kristallnacht, as it deserved (http://www.vosizneias.com/44833/2009/12 ... stallnacht). Other rabbis and the prime minister denounced the attack as well.


Quoting vosizneis as a source of reliable journalism is rather hilarious. For those who know that site at all.
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby EMTP » Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:25 pm UTC

Do you question any of the facts reported? I'd imagine not, since you can find all the same stuff at Ha'Aretz or Ynet. Unless you're questioning the accuracy of the article, attacking the site it came from is just a variant of an ad hominem attack.

tzvibish wrote:
aleflamedyud wrote:OK, who honestly believes that no such thing as an anti-Zionist movement exists?


I believe they call themselves Hamas. Some fringe group that nobody cares about. No reason to pay attention to them or anything.


As I said, there are lots of people who are anti-Zionist. Anybody who doesn't like religious crusades and colonial expansion, racial segragation or apartheid is nine-tenths of the way to an anti-Zionist position. And, of course, the people they stole the land from are mostly opposed to the ideology that claims they had the right to take it.

Nevertheless, there is no "anti-Zionist movement," just lot of disparate organizations and inviduals who oppose Zionism independent of one another and mostly for their own reasons (from Jewish religious conviction, to anti-racism, to the simple rejection by the people the land was stolen from). The accusation "look what the anti-Zionist movement came up with" is inaccurate and paranoid.
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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby Lumpy » Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:58 pm UTC

Do you question any of the facts reported? I'd imagine not, since you can find all the same stuff at Ha'Aretz or Ynet. Unless you're questioning the accuracy of the article, attacking the site it came from is just a variant of an ad hominem attack.


Then in the same amount of space, wouldn't it have been a lot easier to have linked such an article, which would have given more oomph to your rebuttal?

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Re: Israel admits to Harvesting Organs

Postby EMTP » Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:36 pm UTC

If he'd made some sort of case that the site was unreliable, I might have done so, but I'm not going hunting for links just because somebody turns up their nose at the source of the facts. The article, just to review, was introduced as evidence of something thoughtful and courageous that a prominent Zionist did in reaction against a terror attack. Granting that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" I'm still not seeing the rationale for a big argument on the subject.
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