U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

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U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby EMTP » Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:57 pm UTC

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1135200.html

This is the same yeshiva whose rabbi said it is permissible to kill gentile babies because of "the future danger that will arise if they are allowed to grow into evil people like their parents." In his latest book, the head of the yeshiva, Yitzhak Shapira, who bears the honorable title of rabbi, even permits killing anyone "who, through his remarks and so forth, weakens our kingdom" (Obama, beware!).
On November 17, this column reported that the Education Ministry's division for Torah institutions transferred more than NIS 1 million to this yeshiva in 2006 and 2007. The Welfare Ministry made do with a mere NIS 150,000.


One of the more depraved religious extremists the Israeli government funds with the help of tax-deductible American contributions.

Rabbi Shapira is not the only shining star of the yeshiva in question. Rabbi Yosef explains how Israeli government actions are punished with attacks on Palestinians:

"[Civil] Administration inspectors have not dared to enter Yitzhar since the freeze edict. Their experience with Yitzhar, and its heat, are responsible for the fact that every entry into the settlement by hostile elements requires large forces and ends with extensive damage to army and police equipment, even greater damage to Arab persons and property, and a region that continues to burn in every direction for several days" (Rabbi Yosef Elitzur, Hakol Hayehudi, December 4, 2009).
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby Bubbles McCoy » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:08 pm UTC

Ugh, more of this...?

Anyway, deductions =/= U.S. tax payer money. While donations may reduce net revenues, its akin to complaining about how someone choosing to accept a lower paying job is costing you - technically true from a tax perspective, but it isn't a particularly useful portrayal of what's occurring.

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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby Jahoclave » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:11 pm UTC

Yeah, I didn't realize this was the zionist/anti-zionist month. Is there some 50th anniversary I'm not aware of?

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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby Dauric » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:18 pm UTC

Jahoclave wrote:Yeah, I didn't realize this was the zionist/anti-zionist month. Is there some 50th anniversary I'm not aware of?


Annual: Hanukkah. Christmas too.
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby EMTP » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:20 pm UTC

Bubbles McCoy wrote:Ugh, more of this...?

Anyway, deductions =/= U.S. tax payer money. While donations may reduce net revenues, its akin to complaining about how someone choosing to accept a lower paying job is costing you - technically true from a tax perspective, but it isn't a particularly useful portrayal of what's occurring.


The difference is that wages are typically taxed regardless of the job you have, whereas there are (or are supposed to be) strict limits on what constitutes a tax-deductible charity. That the US government permits contributions to people like that to count as charity is a scandal, although not as much of a scandal as the fact that there are American citizens funneling millions of dollars to these lunatics.
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby Kulantan » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:26 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:Annual: Hanukkah. Christmas too.


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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby Bubbles McCoy » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:26 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:The difference is that wages are typically taxed regardless of the job you have, whereas there are (or are supposed to be) strict limits on what constitutes a tax-deductible charity.

But the net taxes you pay in each circumstance is less, which is the only meaningful parallel here - when you swap jobs, you loose income and the gov't looses your tax dollars; when you give money away to 501(c) organizations the exact same thing occurs. You don't magically stop paying taxes when you give to non-profits, it's just not paid on the money given to the non-profits.

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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby Aetius » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:32 pm UTC

So basically this guy is Aquinas?

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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby EMTP » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:39 pm UTC

Bubbles McCoy wrote:But the net taxes you pay in each circumstance is less, which is the only meaningful parallel here - when you swap jobs, you loose income and the gov't looses your tax dollars; when you give money away to 501(c) organizations the exact same thing occurs. You don't magically stop paying taxes when you give to non-profits, it's just not paid on the money given to the non-profits.


Which affects a transfer of wealth from the government to the charity and in this case, thence to the people who justify murdering babies and boast about anti-Arab pogroms.
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby Bubbles McCoy » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:54 pm UTC

You can't miss what you never had. It is not a wealth transfer away from the government for someone to retire, nor is it for them to direct their money to an organization that doesn't represent their immediate interests. The ethics and justifications surrounding taxation are very nebulous, but in essence income taxes are placed on money you earn and keep for your own personal gains, not what is given to an organization promoting more abstract, non-personal interests. If you honestly believe that all money that could have been collected by the government represents a loss to the taxpayer, then the issue you are raising goes much deeper than this.

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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby EMTP » Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:02 am UTC

Bubbles McCoy wrote:You can't miss what you never had.


Sure you can. Government is owed taxes on x revenue. Waiving those taxes is a transfer of wealth to the party that ends up with the money, in this case the charity.

More on Shapira, from wikipedia: He was arrested under suspicion of incitement in 2006 after having advocated expelling or killing all male Palestinians above the age of 13.[6] In 2008 he signed a "manifesto" in support of Israelis suspected of beating two Arab youths during that year's Holocaust Remembrance Day.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Shapira
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby aleflamedyud » Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:54 am UTC

Oh for God's sake you fucking troll, is there any meaning you won't twist or any semantic you won't argue to make Israel and its people look evil?

There was a time when I didn't believe in a Palestinian Arab propaganda machine. Then I met the denizens of Reddit, followed by you, EMTP. Now I believe. See how much you've accomplished?
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby The Reaper » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:06 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:There was a time when I didn't believe in a Palestinian Arab propaganda machine. Then I met the denizens of Reddit, followed by you, EMTP. Now I believe. See how much you've accomplished?
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby Maduyn » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:56 am UTC

The Reaper wrote:
aleflamedyud wrote:There was a time when I didn't believe in a Palestinian Arab propaganda machine. Then I met the denizens of Reddit, followed by you, EMTP. Now I believe. See how much you've accomplished?
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby Indon » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:57 am UTC

EMTP wrote:The difference is that wages are typically taxed regardless of the job you have, whereas there are (or are supposed to be) strict limits on what constitutes a tax-deductible charity. That the US government permits contributions to people like that to count as charity is a scandal, although not as much of a scandal as the fact that there are American citizens funneling millions of dollars to these lunatics.


Nah, it's not really scandalous at all.

The US has low standards for its' religious charities.
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby EMTP » Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:35 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:Oh for God's sake you fucking troll, is there any meaning you won't twist or any semantic you won't argue to make Israel and its people look evil?

There was a time when I didn't believe in a Palestinian Arab propaganda machine. Then I met the denizens of Reddit, followed by you, EMTP. Now I believe. See how much you've accomplished?


Yeah, it's funny how the "propaganda machine" can take a simple little thing like your government paying for religious leaders endorse the murder of babies and "twist" it make it "look evil."
"Reasonable – that is, human – men will always be capable of compromise, but men who have dehumanized themselves by becoming the blind worshipers of an idea or an ideal are fanatics whose devotion to abstractions makes them the enemies of life."
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby Maduyn » Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:43 am UTC

EMTP wrote:
aleflamedyud wrote:Oh for God's sake you fucking troll, is there any meaning you won't twist or any semantic you won't argue to make Israel and its people look evil?

There was a time when I didn't believe in a Palestinian Arab propaganda machine. Then I met the denizens of Reddit, followed by you, EMTP. Now I believe. See how much you've accomplished?


Yeah, it's funny how the "propaganda machine" can take a simple little thing like your government paying for religious leaders endorse the murder of babies and "twist" it make it "look evil."


Governments kills people all the time fully paying for it and in some cases endorsing it.

NO nation besides Sweden and some small countries can claim anything else without being dishonest or inept.

EDIT: i do not condone the killing of anyone for any reason just to clarify

But i feel that it is dishonest to say that this is isolated to Isreal
As an international community we have done many things which we should be ashamed of.
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby aleflamedyud » Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:02 am UTC

Indon wrote:
EMTP wrote:The difference is that wages are typically taxed regardless of the job you have, whereas there are (or are supposed to be) strict limits on what constitutes a tax-deductible charity. That the US government permits contributions to people like that to count as charity is a scandal, although not as much of a scandal as the fact that there are American citizens funneling millions of dollars to these lunatics.


Nah, it's not really scandalous at all.

The US has low standards for its' religious charities.

More like: the United States and its citizens tend to consider charitable, political, and religious donations as acts that fall under the doctrines of free speech and expression more than people of other nations.

Now, EMTP, if you actually want to drag every American Jewish charity that funnels money or people to the Israeli right-wing into court on charges of funding terrorism or operating as for-profit businesses, the only laws I know of that limit the ability of a non-profit religious charity in America to receive the tax exemption, I invite you to try. Myself and the entire rest of American Jewry will then see you in court. Of course, I don't think you'd like to do that since it would bring the doctrine of "innocent until proven guilty" into play, and since if you lost the case it would give us court statements that even the far-right are not terrorists and have the right to receive donations tax-exempt. Then you'd have to resort to complaining about Jewish control over the court system, which reaches into domains of antisemitic lunacy so extreme that only Reddit and Stormfront accept them.

If there are other laws that limit tax-exempt status, try those as well of course.
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby EMTP » Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:12 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:Now, EMTP, if you actually want to drag every American Jewish charity that funnels money or people to the Israeli right-wing into court on charges of funding terrorism or operating as for-profit businesses, the only laws I know of that limit the ability of a non-profit religious charity in America to receive the tax exemption, I invite you to try. Myself and the entire rest of American Jewry will then see you in court.


So you are pledging a fight to the end to defend sending American (as well as Israeli) tax dollars the guy who advocates rounding up and executing every Palestinian male over 13. But I'm making you "look evil."

Of course, I don't think you'd like to do that since it would bring the doctrine of "innocent until proven guilty" into play [the doctrine of "innocent until proven guilty" refers only to criminal, not civil proceedings -- E], and since if you lost the case it would give us court statements that even the far-right are not terrorists and have the right to receive donations tax-exempt. Then you'd have to resort to complaining about Jewish control over the court system, which reaches into domains of antisemitic lunacy so extreme that only Reddit and Stormfront accept them.


So here your argument is so weak that you wander into an elaborate fantasy about a protracted legal battle against Jewish right-wing "charities." It's a fantasy in which, like a lot of your fantasies, I abandon reporting on the facts in favor of anti-Semitic screeds -- in this case about Jewish control of the court system. It hasn't happened and it never will. If you keep beating this drum of "You must believe this or that anti-Semitic thing (despite having said nothing that could be remotely construed that way), and that's despicable" I will report it to the mods. It's totally baseless and the definition of trolling.
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby aleflamedyud » Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:29 am UTC

So you are pledging a fight to the end to defend sending American (as well as Israeli) tax dollars the guy who advocates rounding up and executing every Palestinian male over 13. But I'm making you "look evil."

No, jackass, I'm pledging a fight to the end to defend a well-established principle of American freedom of expression. I don't like what Yitzhak Shapira has to say (by the way, before bitching about Israeli government support of the man, note that the Israeli government arrested him for incitement) and I don't like the people donating money to have him say it, but I defend their right to express their support of whomever they please on equal footing with everyone else in the country who donates to a religious or political cause.

the doctrine of "innocent until proven guilty" refers only to criminal, not civil proceedings -- E

Which would become relevant, since raising money for terrorism is a criminal matter rather than a civil one.

So here your argument is so weak that you wander into an elaborate fantasy about a protracted legal battle against Jewish right-wing "charities."

Given that there is already a campaign under way by at least two people, Gideon Levy and Akiva Eldar, with the support of the Palestinian advocacy movement and parts of the Israeli far-left, to strip Jewish right-wing charities of their tax-exempt status, I would not call such legal battles elaborate fantasies. This is something that people actually are working for right now, since they do not have the same standards for freedom of expression as Americans and/or believe that Jewish right-wing organizations are essentially terrorists.
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby blob » Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:19 am UTC

The Reaper wrote:
aleflamedyud wrote:There was a time when I didn't believe in a Palestinian Arab propaganda machine. Then I met the denizens of Reddit, followed by you, EMTP. Now I believe. See how much you've accomplished?
Welcome, to the Internet.
I'm pretty sure EMPT is really a Zionist agent pretending to support the Palestinian cause with the most stupid arguments possible in order to discredit it.

If all Israelis (or even the "religious leadership" of Israel) is to be conflated with one rabbi, I hate to think what this preacher's words say about Egyptians:

Yusuf al-Qaradawi wrote:Oh Allah, take your enemies, the enemies of Islam. Oh Allah, take the Jews, the treacherous aggressors. Oh Allah, take this profligate, cunning, arrogant band of people. Oh Allah, they have spread much tyranny and corruption in the land. Pour Your wrath upon them, oh our God. Lie in wait for them. Oh Allah, You annihilated the people of Thamoud at the hand of a tyrant, and You annihilated the people of 'Aad with a fierce, icy gale. Oh Allah, You annihilated the people Thamoud at the hand of a tyrant, You annihilated the people of 'Aad with a fierce, icy gale, and You destroyed the Pharaoh and his soldiers — oh Allah, take this oppressive, tyrannical band of people. Oh Allah, take this oppressive, Jewish, Zionist band of people. Oh Allah, do not spare a single one of them. Oh Allah, count their numbers, and kill them, down to the very last one.
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby Chen » Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:01 pm UTC

Uh whats the issue here? Individuals, abiding by the laws of their country with respect to tax-deductible donations, are giving money to someone you don't like? I imagine there are probably literally millions of people who donate money, tax-free, in the US to causes I wouldn't support or dislike. For someone who states they are not an anti-semite its kind of strange how everything you post, despite it probably being a generalized problem, always focuses on Israel doing it...

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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby aleflamedyud » Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:41 pm UTC

Individuals, abiding by the laws of their country with respect to tax-deductible donations, are giving money to someone you don't like?

Yes, that's the issue that EMTP and Akiva Eldar portray as being the problem: freedom of donation applies to causes they oppose.
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby Random832 » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:04 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:Government is owed taxes on x revenue. Waiving those taxes is a transfer of wealth to the party that ends up with the money, in this case the charity.


Even granting all that, it's unclear how 'the party that ends up with the money' is necessarily the charity rather than the donor. You are making an implicit assumption that the charity would not have received the donations if not for the tax-exempt status.

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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby Spacemilk » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:33 pm UTC

Chen wrote:Uh whats the issue here? Individuals, abiding by the laws of their country with respect to tax-deductible donations, are giving money to someone you don't like? I imagine there are probably literally millions of people who donate money, tax-free, in the US to causes I wouldn't support or dislike. For someone who states they are not an anti-semite its kind of strange how everything you post, despite it probably being a generalized problem, always focuses on Israel doing it...

So, so this.

This post belongs in the "Flamebait" section of the fora, not N&A. I'm starting to get sick of seeing racist propaganda masquerading as flamebait masquerading as news around here. We get that you don't agree with this guy, and I personally don't agree with him either, but you're using it as a springboard to other conclusions.
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby tzvibish » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:54 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1135200.html

This is the same yeshiva whose rabbi said it is permissible to kill gentile babies because of "the future danger that will arise if they are allowed to grow into evil people like their parents." In his latest book, the head of the yeshiva, Yitzhak Shapira, who bears the honorable title of rabbi, even permits killing anyone "who, through his remarks and so forth, weakens our kingdom" (Obama, beware!).
On November 17, this column reported that the Education Ministry's division for Torah institutions transferred more than NIS 1 million to this yeshiva in 2006 and 2007. The Welfare Ministry made do with a mere NIS 150,000.


One of the more depraved religious extremists the Israeli government funds with the help of tax-deductible American contributions.

Rabbi Shapira is not the only shining star of the yeshiva in question. Rabbi Yosef explains how Israeli government actions are punished with attacks on Palestinians:

"[Civil] Administration inspectors have not dared to enter Yitzhar since the freeze edict. Their experience with Yitzhar, and its heat, are responsible for the fact that every entry into the settlement by hostile elements requires large forces and ends with extensive damage to army and police equipment, even greater damage to Arab persons and property, and a region that continues to burn in every direction for several days" (Rabbi Yosef Elitzur, Hakol Hayehudi, December 4, 2009).


I don't know why this is even sparking discussion. You do know that you're singling out one, maybe two rabbis. Both of whom belong to the same institution. Do you how many such institutions there are in Israel? do you know how many rabbis are currently employed in these institutions? Do you even know how insanely diverse the "Jewish right-wing" really is?

You realize that you're saying: My professor is a militant liberal fanatic; We should stop stop paying for public universities!

Oh, and has this even happened? Has there been even one case of a "depraved right-wing fanatic" who went and killed a gentile child because he would grow to be as evil as his parents? I mean, aside from your personal bias that every IDF soldier does this on a daily basis. Can you find me one case where this has happened?

Edit: Spell Check was turned off. I was typing like a drunkard.
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby Phen » Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:37 pm UTC

"Stop feeding the troll" comes to mind.
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby EMTP » Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:18 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:No, jackass, I'm pledging a fight to the end to defend a well-established principle of American freedom of expression.


Look, fucktard, your moronic support of this genocidal loon is self-destructive enough without the random insults. Bitch and curse as you will, murdering babies because they are non-Jews is not "freedom of expression" and tax-exemptions are not owed to people who advocate mass murder. Not funding something does not infringe on "freedom of expression" in any case.

I don't like what Yitzhak Shapira has to say


How nice. I almost believe you.

Which would become relevant, since raising money for terrorism is a criminal matter rather than a civil one.


Look at what you wrote. You claimed this issue could only be settled by a civil action (false) and such an action would fail because of "innocent until proven guilty." That's two basic legal mistakes.

Given that there is already a campaign under way by at least two people, Gideon Levy and Akiva Eldar, with the support of the Palestinian advocacy movement and parts of the Israeli far-left, to strip Jewish right-wing charities of their tax-exempt status, I would not call such legal battles elaborate fantasies. This is something that people actually are working for right now, since they do not have the same standards for freedom of expression as Americans and/or believe that Jewish right-wing organizations are essentially terrorists.


Yet what you presented was an elaborate fantasy, since you assigned this project to me, when I'd said nothing of the kind, and then predicted I'd attack Jewish influence on the legal system -- again, totally baseless and related to nothing. Again, if you throw these racist ideas out into conversations apropos of nothing, it's trolling. I'm not going to engage it further, but I will report it.

From the grab bag of straw men (various artists):

If all Israelis (or even the "religious leadership" of Israel) is to be conflated with one rabbi, I hate to think what this preacher's words say about Egyptians:


Except neither the all Israeli nor the "religious leadership" were conflated with the two rabbis mentioned by name. Just didn't happen. The only one who made a blanket "all Jews" statement was aleflamedyud, who predicted that every American Jew would rise as one to defend these rabbis.

Uh whats the issue here? Individuals, abiding by the laws of their country with respect to tax-deductible donations, are giving money to someone you don't like?


That's right: it's just my personal prejudice, not wanting my government's money to go to people advocating mass murder and boosting about attacking civilians.

For someone who states they are not an anti-semite its kind of strange how everything you post, despite it probably being a generalized problem, always focuses on Israel doing it...


To construct this straw man, you have to ignore all the posts I make on climate issues, health and medicine, etc. It also includes the standard boilerplate lie that critics of Israelis or Zionism must be anti-Semites -- who wouldn't love a great bunch of guys like this, unless they were prejudiced against Jews as a group?

This post belongs in the "Flamebait" section of the fora, not N&A. I'm starting to get sick of seeing racist propaganda masquerading as flamebait masquerading as news around here. We get that you don't agree with this guy, and I personally don't agree with him either, but you're using it as a springboard to other conclusions.


Another allegation of racism with nothing to support it. Now an article in Ha'Aretz, Israel's New York Times, is "racist propaganda." No. And the straw man has evidently reached "other conclusions" which you don't describe and can't connect to anything I wrote, since nothing I wrote reaches any sweeping conclusions -- I presented the article, was critic of these rabbis, and that's it.

I don't know why this is even sparking discussion. You do know that you're singling out one, maybe two rabbis. Both of whom belong to the same institution. Do you how many such institutions there are in Israel? do you know how many rabbis are currently employed in these institutions? Do you even know how insanely diverse the "Jewish right-wing" really is?


It was aleflamedyud, not me, who associated these rabbis with the Jewish right wing (in order to argue that an attack on them was an attack on all right-wingers). I never said anything of the kind.

You realize that you're saying: My professor is a militant liberal fanatic; We should stop stop paying for public universities!


Again, it was aleflamedyud who argued (falsely) that the only way to stop paying for this fanatic was to cut off support to all religious charities. I didn't propose that. It's not necessary.

Oh, and has this even happened? Has there been even one case of a "depraved right-wing fanatic" who went and killed a gentile child because he would grow to be as evil as his parents? I mean, aside from your personal bias that every IDF soldier does this on a daily basis. Can you find me one case where this has happened?


Yes:

"I knew Yaakov Teitel. . . . Twenty years ago we were together at a yeshiva in Jerusalem. Afterward he helped me a little with my computer. I taught him a little Hebrew. I was in his house. He's nice, helpful. Generous.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1132531.html

Yaakov Teitel, who was arrested last month for suspected murder and a string of alleged murder attempts, was born in Florida in November 1972, the son of Mordehai (Mark) and Devorah (Dianne), American ultra-Orthodox Jews.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1125062.html

Dozens of other examples available on request. It's amusing that people express such ignorance of the apparatus of Jewish terrorism and religious extremism and in the same breath say "Where is the story here?"
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby Decker » Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:40 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:
aleflamedyud wrote:No, jackass, I'm pledging a fight to the end to defend a well-established principle of American freedom of expression.


Look, fucktard, your moronic support of this genocidal loon is self-destructive enough without the random insults.


This, children, is what we call IRONY.
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby clintonius » Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:06 pm UTC

And violating the rules. Both of you -- enough with the name-calling.

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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby Indon » Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:57 pm UTC

EMTP, I'm not quite sure what problem you have with this.

Do you dislike the fact that charities in the US are tax exempt regardless of the stated views of the people involved in them?

If so, what would you propose to supplant or improve this system that would exclude people that should not be tax exempt, while still including the people who should? Or do you think charity should not be tax exempt at all?
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby tzvibish » Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:02 pm UTC

I know Yaakov Teitel. I lived a block away from his parents in Norfolk, VA. The guy was insane. Anyone familiar with his background and upbringing could tell you that whatever it was that drove him to do the things he did, it wasn't religious zeal. He was a troubled, unstable person. Just because he was a Orthodox Jew doesn't shed any light on anything representing right-wing Judaism.

I understand that your literal words don't say anything about other rabbis or other institutions. Unfortunately, you're especially bad at making your opinions hidden. When you say things like "
EMTP wrote:One of the more depraved religious extremists the Israeli government funds with the help of tax-deductible American contributions


I don't hear "Listen, it was only one guy. I'm sure everyone else is just A-OK. I'm all for religious funding." If you can't keep your opinions to yourself when reporting news, then don't pass it off as news.

If you really are sincere about what you're saying, I want to see it in writing. Tell me that you have no problem with the government supporting the right-wing yeshiva institutions.
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby EMTP » Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:34 pm UTC

tzvibish wrote:I know Yaakov Teitel. I lived a block away from his parents in Norfolk, VA. The guy was insane. Anyone familiar with his background and upbringing could tell you that whatever it was that drove him to do the things he did, it wasn't religious zeal. He was a troubled, unstable person. Just because he was a Orthodox Jew doesn't shed any light on anything representing right-wing Judaism.


But he, himself cites religious teachings for his actions.

The question was: does anyone put these bloodthirsty religious screeds into action, or are they are just talk. Answer: some people do set out to put them into practice. Again (and again) I am not the one claiming these ideas represent right-wing Judaism as a whole. But these religious fundamentalists do influence people with these arguments: and the majority of Jewish terrorists who talk about their crimes cite the teachings of these radical rabbis as inspiration and justification.

I understand that your literal words don't say anything about other rabbis or other institutions.


Good. Then stop putting words in my mouth.

Unfortunately, you're especially bad at making your opinions hidden. When you say things like "
EMTP wrote:One of the more depraved religious extremists the Israeli government funds with the help of tax-deductible American contributions


I don't hear "Listen, it was only one guy. I'm sure everyone else is just A-OK. I'm all for religious funding."


There's a big difference between saying "This guy is a particularly depraved example of a larger phenomenon of religious extremists supported by the Israeli government" and saying "This is what religious Jews are like." More than one is different from all. And This is an extreme example of a wider problem is totally different from saying They are all like this.

If you can't keep your opinions to yourself when reporting news, then don't pass it off as news.


That makes no sense. News reported with the posters' opinions about the news -- that's supposed to be a bad thing? Have you ever been to these fora before? Bear in mind that there are a lot of religious extremists supported by the Israeli state is a fact, just as the statements of the rabbis cited in the article are facts. And facts don't cease to be facts, or news cease to be news, because someone has an opinion about them.

If you really are sincere about what you're saying, I want to see it in writing. Tell me that you have no problem with the government supporting the right-wing yeshiva institutions.


And that's a litmus test for what, exactly? I don't like government subsidizing religious institutions to begin with. And a "right-wing" yeshiva is by definition a political institution, rather than a purely religious one. There are no right-wing religious doctrines, only right-wing politics. Hence, I see no argument for religious freedom of expression, and I don't feel obligated to prove my sincerity with regards to beliefs you have attributed to me with no evidence.

I will says that I think that this organization, in particular, have incited to mass murder, should not be supported. Other yeshivas that promote racism and violence against the Palestinians should not be supported, and in fact should be prosecuted. A yeshiva that wants to teach "God gave us this land" or other mythology is a dumb thing to give money too, but I have no problem with it. A yeshiva that advances one political line or another, without sponsoring violence and spewing racist incitement, is the business of the Israeli government as to whether they want to subsidize that political speech.
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby aleflamedyud » Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:48 pm UTC

But he, himself cites religious teachings for his actions.

So does the ultra-liberal peace-and-love Union for Reform Judaism in America. Judaic religious lore as a rule allows for disagreement and has lacked central religious authority since the end of the Temples and the prophetic era, so (rather like say... Islam, actually) fanatics find it easy to twist into supporting their opinions in contrast to something like Anglicanism or Catholicism.

A yeshiva that advances one political line or another, without sponsoring violence and spewing racist incitement, is the business of the Israeli government as to whether they want to subsidize that political speech.

Last I heard, the Israeli government subsidizes almost any Orthodox (for Israeli values of "Orthodox") synagogue, yeshivah, or kolel. It's the price for getting religious parties to throw their parliamentary votes into a governing coalition, unfortunately. If anyone here doesn't like it, they can help resurrect or copy the Shinui Party that famously refused to enter a coalition with religious parties and for a while consistently came in second or third place in elections.
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby tzvibish » Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:00 pm UTC

First of all, there so is definitely right-wing and left-wing Judaism. It can be hard to define at times, but right-wing means more literal and historic interpretations of ancient texts, backed up with modern commentary, and left-wing is more lenient interpretations of the ancient texts. That's a general framework. Does it affect political mindsets? It can, and it often does.

It's unfortunate that a "rabbi" is touting this gentile-killing literature. I have read some of what's in his book, and it is clearly and obviously against everything the Jewish people believe in. Anyone with an even decent knowledge if the subject can affirm that.

I completely agree that funding should be cut off from people like him (with his obvious lack of even basic Jewish philosophy, I shy away from calling him a "rabbi"). I just hate to see other, completely legitimate and healthy institutions fall under the shadow this man has created for his fellow Jews. I hope you understand that's why I read your words the way I do.
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby EMTP » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:26 pm UTC

tzvibish wrote:First of all, there so is definitely right-wing and left-wing Judaism. It can be hard to define at times, but right-wing means more literal and historic interpretations of ancient texts, backed up with modern commentary, and left-wing is more lenient interpretations of the ancient texts. That's a general framework. Does it affect political mindsets? It can, and it often does.


I would not think the government would want to involve itself in whether a religious institution took a literalist as oppose to a "lenient" stance.

It's unfortunate that a "rabbi" is touting this gentile-killing literature. I have read some of what's in his book, and it is clearly and obviously against everything the Jewish people believe in. Anyone with an even decent knowledge if the subject can affirm that.


I'm glad to hear someone express opposition to what this man is saying. He's definitely out on the fringe. Unfortunately, he's not out there alone.

Is he in opposition to everything the Jewish people believe in? That's kind of problematic, in the same way calling radical Islamists totally unrelated to what Islam "really" teaches is problematic. They way I would say it is that most religious traditions can be pressed into the service of religious fundamentalism, and that it doesn't, strangely, even seem to matter much which religion you start with -- everybody ends up demanding that the faithful kill the unbelievers and that women wear long skirts. It has nothing to do with Judaism in the sense that any religion can create intolerant fanatics.

I agree that the vast majority of Jews do not consider these extremist views in keeping with their religious beliefs, which makes it all the more surprising and notable that the democratic state of Israel continues to fund this yeshiva and others like it, even when they attack not only Palestinians, but Israeli police, IDF forces, cursing secular Israelis and defying the state's authority as well as spreading hate against the "Other."

I completely agree that funding should be cut off from people like him (with his obvious lack of even basic Jewish philosophy, I shy away from calling him a "rabbi"). I just hate to see other, completely legitimate and healthy institutions fall under the shadow this man has created for his fellow Jews. I hope you understand that's why I read your words the way I do.


I really had never heard of such a campaign before this thread. When you work in healthcare, as I do, you are confronted daily with evidence of the good religious organizations can do for society. All religions should confront their fundamentalists, but a broad-based attack on religion as the problem is not the answer.
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby Telchar » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:49 pm UTC

My state government just lowered the property tax on my house.

I use that money to buy a gun, and kill 40 people.

According to this thread, money that could've been the governments but isn't is still considered US taxes.

Therefore, the US government just killed 40 people with taxes. In fact, the US government has funded every single crime in the US ever, because they don't have a tax rate of 100%.

This thread title is a sham, the debate is a sham.
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby blob » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:52 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:From the grab bag of straw men (various artists):

If all Israelis (or even the "religious leadership" of Israel) is to be conflated with one rabbi, I hate to think what this preacher's words say about Egyptians:


Except neither the all Israeli nor the "religious leadership" were conflated with the two rabbis mentioned by name. Just didn't happen.

You have a conveniently defective memory:
EMTP wrote:your own religious leadership is endorsing killing gentile babies and murdering every Palestinian male over 13.
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby EMTP » Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:26 am UTC

blob wrote:You have a conveniently defective memory:


Sorry, Blob, if he wanted to talk about what was said in the other thread, he should have said that's what he was talking about. It's a straw man to conflate what's being said here with what was being said in another discussion.

Members of Israel's religious leadership endorse murdering gentile babies and killing every Palestinian male over the age of 13. The religious establishment as a whole does not endorse those views. Now we're clear.
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Re: U.S. taxes fund rabbi who excused killing gentile babies

Postby Le1bn1z » Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:14 am UTC

General Reminder,

Like most democracies, the United States

A) Has laws defining exhortations to violence (especially against a definable class, such as gentiles or Jews) as Hate Crimes,
B) Bans the listing of organisations that exhort violence, even indirectly, from listing themselves as tax-deductable charities.
C) Blacklists foreign organisations that exhort violence against definable classes from recieving American donations.

Many western democracies, including Germany and Canada, have criminalised Holocaust denial to some degree as a Hate Crime. A couple of years back, Canada deported Ernst Zundle to Germany to face charges which include Holocaust denial and related hate speech crimes.

At the time, the Jewish community was united behind these laws.

I have noticed here, however, that some have defended this particular "rabbi" for no other reason than he is Jewish. A peculiar stance, and one which I belive both weakens and cheapens the moral movement against anti-semitism.

The petty hashing over whether or not permitting Americans to donate to spreading the word of the necessity of killing non-Jewish babies in lieu of paying some of their taxes constitutes a tax-dollar donation to baby killing is semantic pedantry. It's still a stupid and counter-productive idea.

First, it sets a dangerous precedent. American law is in part precedent-based. IF donations of American funds continue to reach this rabbi, then the argument against funding for Hamas-controlled Palestinian areas becomes far more problematic, legally speaking. Ditto bans on the listing of white supremacist groups as non-profit or charitable organisations.

Its the same gross mistep which I was in the News and Articles section on the European Court challenge against Irish Abortion Laws: a belief that the end legitimises all means. Sometimes in doing so, we normalise practices which in the long run are far more harmful than helpful to the causes we hold dear. Consider: the American anti-hate speech laws have benefited Jewish people in America and abroad more than any other group, cutting off funding supplies and legitimacy to Islamo-fascist and white supremicist groups alike. If a few over-zealous or over-paranoid people block efforts to cut off this nut-bar by means of court challenges, they put the whole apparatus of laws which protect the Jewish people and cause of the state of Israel in peril.

Some victory that would be.

To reinforce these laws, America, Canada and other countries should pass laws limiting and restricting where donated funds may be spent. Money for water-works and community centres are one thing. Money for genocidal splinter cults are another. The laws either apply to everyone or to no-one. Its in the best interests of anyone who would defend the state of Isreal and minority rights that they apply to everyone.
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