Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

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Aetius
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Aetius » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:02 am UTC

fjafjan wrote:Both sides? Really? Please tell me what is so unsympathetic about stating that perhaps, like in nearly all conflicts, if there is a huge disparity in power, wealth and affluence internationally it's going to be really shitty, and peace is of low priority. It especially does not help when there is a warring mentality.
The argument is then that rather than let the guys who would rather kill a hundred innocent of "them" than have one of "our" die be the judge of who gets to die, we let someone else do it. And we don't give them more weapons. And we don't block the internationally proposed solution to the conflict or other international criticism.
Maybe I sound angry and that's why I'm unsympathetic, but there's is a good cause to be angry about something that is wrong.


Yes, both sides.

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:07 am UTC

yoni45 wrote:Given that "So you're saying the deaths, poverty, injuries and decease in Gaza is not wrong?" is posing an all-encompassing question regarding matters that are innumerably case dependent, "so you think the entire sum of everything here isn't wrong?" is an 'inaccurate characterization' only by virtue of its hyperbole.

Or by virtue of the fact that the badness of death, poverty, and injury are not fucking case-dependent.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby fjafjan » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:12 am UTC

yoni45 wrote:
fjafjan wrote:So you're saying the deaths, poverty, injuries and decease in Gaza is not wrong?


No, I'm saying that your ignorance vis a vis the subject matter (and anyone who asks a question as silly as "so you think the entire sum of everything here isn't wrong?" when it comes to a subject as convoluted as the mid-east conflict is indeed ignorant regarding the subject matter at best), alongside the heavy confidence with which you throw around your ignorant opinion, makes the truth of the quote amusingly self-evident.

This has got to be one of the most douchy things I have ever read.

But it's great that you never even try to actually
1 Disprove any of my factual claims (At best you'll find some minor correction)
2 Disprove any of my reasoning

Reasoning is always more slippery than facts, but there is no denying, if we look at the last 50 years of military conflicts in the world, when there has been a conflict with one vastly more powerful than the other it has ended in
1 The powerful eventually leaving after archieving desired objective (see a number of United States operations, such as that in Nicoragua) or the Falklands
2 Permanent occupation/seizing territory/the territory(See Tibet, though that doesn't really fall within the 50 year framework), Chechnya, Israels 'Yom Kippur' war against Lebanon, etc
3 The powerful leaving after brutal attempts to beat down local insurgents. See Afghanistan (soviet), Vietnam, Iraq(though nebulous)


Aetius wrote:Yes, both sides.

Well aren't you a dear

Given that "So you're saying the deaths, poverty, injuries and decease in Gaza is not wrong?" is posing an all-encompassing question regarding matters that are innumerably case dependent, "so you think the entire sum of everything here isn't wrong?" is an 'inaccurate characterization' only by virtue of its hyperbole.

Well I could have written a longer post, where I cited sources, and tried to argue what I thought was wrong but..
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Aetius » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:18 am UTC

fjafjan wrote:Well aren't you a dear


This entire debate is an illustration of how the conflict got so bad in the first place. Pick a side, justify your own war crimes with the war crimes of the other side, rinse and repeat until there are sixty years of mindless bloodshed over a thrice cursed scrap of land that wasn't worth much to begin with. I have sympathy for Israelis and I have sympathy for Palestinians, but as for "Israel" and "The Palestinians" I have zero. This is a mess they could have ended long ago, but instead choose, on an almost daily basis, to continue in the most uncompromising, inhuman of fashions. Wake me when this conflict stops resembling two children fighting over a toy.

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby fjafjan » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:24 am UTC

Aetius wrote:
fjafjan wrote:Well aren't you a dear


This entire debate is an illustration of how the conflict got so bad in the first place. Pick a side, justify your own war crimes with the war crimes of the other side, rinse and repeat until there are sixty years of mindless bloodshed over a thrice cursed scrap of land that wasn't worth much to begin with. I have sympathy for Israelis and I have sympathy for Palestinians, but as for "Israel" and "The Palestinians" I have zero. This is a mess they could have ended long ago, but choose, on an almost daily basis, to continue in the most uncompromising, inhuman of fashions. Wake me when this conflict stops resembling two children fighting over a toy.

Did you read what I said?

Basically the relevant quote(paraphrased) is this
"I think what the Hamas are doing in suicide bombings and shooting missiles at civilians is deplorable, and I think we should stop our huge military, political and economical support of them. Now let's apply those same standards"

Spoiler:
It's not two children fighting, it's an adult fighting a child in terms of military strenght, and in terms of casualities, economic damage, and any way to meassure damage inflicted upon a people.
So what I am proposing is what 99/98% of all countries in the world have voted, namely the two state settlement. Two countries that disagree are Israel and the United states. Often some tiny island nations in the pacific (I think? You ever heard of Nalu, Palu or Tuvalu? Also Australia sometimes) also vote against.
So the core of the problem in this conflict is US support for Israel, who can get away with anything. Meanwhile some Palestinians are doing dumb shit but usually doing very little damage. Even when it was at its worst just the ratio of civilian deaths was incredibly disproportionate which ignores the far larger damage of crippling an entire society by instituting roadblocks, destroying any semblance of a government, etc etc.
//Yepp, THE fjafjan (who's THE fjafjan?)
Liza wrote:Fjafjan, your hair is so lovely that I want to go to Sweden, collect the bit you cut off in your latest haircut and keep it in my room, and smell it. And eventually use it to complete my shrine dedicated to you.

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby yoni45 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:25 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Or by virtue of the fact that the badness of death, poverty, and injury are not fucking case-dependent.


See quote by Darwin.

fjafjan wrote:...But it's great that you never even try to actually
1 Disprove any of my factual claims (At best you'll find some minor correction)
2 Disprove any of my reasoning...


Disproving your claims/reasoning would be the logical equivalent (in terms of effort) of putting back together a $4 mickey-mouse watch from wal-mart that was smashed with a dumbbell dozen times, put through blender for a few minutes, with the pieces spread across a small forest.

A ridiculous amount of work, that while doable, will eventually provide me with little more than a useless $4 watch.

Meanwhile, there's plenty of far more competent watches (ie, people) laying around the fora for me to argue with.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Dream » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:30 am UTC

yoni45 wrote:Meanwhile, there's plenty of far more competent watches (ie, people) laying around the fora for me to argue with.

No there are not, and I think there are more than a few people about the place who might agree with me.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:33 am UTC

Yoni. Dude. A claim that you can't be bothered substantiating is not worth making, and all the more so when you dress it up in condescending aphorisms. You are a dumbass.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby yoni45 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:39 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:A claim that you can't be bothered substantiating is not worth making...


That's only true if the claim is meant to be argumentative in nature. I have no intent in getting into what I find will obviously turn into a mud-slinging match given fjafjan's general demeanor.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:43 am UTC

"I won't stoop to that shithead fjafjan's level by flinging mud at him."

You stay classy.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Aetius » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:50 am UTC

fjafjan wrote:Meanwhile some Palestinians are doing dumb shit but usually doing very little damage. Even when it was at its worst just the ratio of civilian deaths was incredibly disproportionate which ignores the far larger damage of crippling an entire society by instituting roadblocks, destroying any semblance of a government, etc etc.


So terrorism, targeting civilians, violating cease fires, using humanitarian infrastructure for war, etc, (plus passing these family values onto your children) only make you unsympathetic if you're particularly talented at it and can manage to kill more than a couple dozen at a time?

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby psyck0 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:57 am UTC

Aetius, the point is that both sides are being very very stupid, but the Israelis have the capability to be far more lethal in their stupidity (and also claim to be a first-world, democratic country, which we hold to higher standards than oligarchies) and so we should be stricter with them for the sake of pragmatism, to save more lives (and also because we CAN, because they ARE an educated democracy who does, from time to time, listen to reason).

Also, Israeli attacks are a NATIONAL thing, done by a COUNTRY. The terrorists are terrorists who don't represent their people. You can talk to a country; you can't talk to terrorists. Furthermore, we hold countries to higher standards than terrorists (like not acting like the terrorists!).

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby fjafjan » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:58 am UTC

yoni45 wrote:
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Or by virtue of the fact that the badness of death, poverty, and injury are not fucking case-dependent.


See quote by Darwin.

See that quote you quoted, it was really rather out of context. The full quote goes as this
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.


I think a relevant quote for this thread might be this though
“Animals, whom we have made our slaves, we do not like to consider our equal.”

Or maybe this one
“I fully subscribe to the judgement of those writers who maintain that of all the differences between man and the lower animal, the moral sense of conscience is by far the most important....It is the most noble of all the attributes of man.”



yoni wrote:Disproving your claims/reasoning would be the logical equivalent (in terms of effort) of putting back together a $4 mickey-mouse watch from wal-mart that was smashed with a dumbbell dozen times, put through blender for a few minutes, with the pieces spread across a small forest.

A ridiculous amount of work, that while doable, will eventually provide me with little more than a useless $4 watch.

Meanwhile, there's plenty of far more competent watches (ie, people) laying around the fora for me to argue with.

Yeah well that's great, in the meantime, shut the fuck up if you won't defend what you say on the basis that "you're too dumb".
That's fine. I know I am in factual agreement with such crazy people and organizations as Amnesty International, the Red Cross, Doctors without borders, B'tselem and the UN, and my proposed start of a solution is backed by almost every civilized nation on the planet. And if the United States had a vote on it they would support it to (ignoring the inevitable spew of false propaganda such an election would cause and possible shift of public opinion due to it).

Basically I can summarize it like this.
A wild Zionist appears!
Go fjafjan!
Zionist uses racism!
fjafjan is enraged
fjafjan uses facts!
it's super effective!
Zionist uses douchebag responce!
but it's not very effective
fjafjan uses reasoning!
Zionist has run away
//Yepp, THE fjafjan (who's THE fjafjan?)
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby yoni45 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:04 am UTC

psyck0 wrote:...and also claim to be a first-world, democratic country, which we hold to higher standards than oligarchies...and also because we CAN, because they ARE an educated democracy who does, from time to time, listen to reason...


Problem is, however, that that's often forgotten in the slew of moral-relativism.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Aetius » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:06 am UTC

psyck0 wrote:Aetius, the point is that both sides are being very very stupid, but the Israelis have the capability to be far more lethal in their stupidity (and also claim to be a first-world, democratic country, which we hold to higher standards than oligarchies) and so we should be stricter with them for the sake of pragmatism, to save more lives (and also because we CAN, because they ARE an educated democracy who does, from time to time, listen to reason).


My original point was that both sides are unsympathetic to a degree that almost makes it seem like it's a goal they're pursuing. Nothing that has been said counters that.

psyck0 wrote:Also, Israeli attacks are a NATIONAL thing, done by a COUNTRY. The terrorists are terrorists who don't represent their people. You can talk to a country; you can't talk to terrorists. Furthermore, we hold countries to higher standards than terrorists (like not acting like the terrorists!).


Considering Hamas' electoral success as well as relevant polls, I don't think it's unfair to say that Palestinian groups carrying out such attacks represent the Palestinian people to roughly the same degree that the Israeli government represents the Israeli population.

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby fjafjan » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:09 am UTC

Aetius wrote:
fjafjan wrote:Meanwhile some Palestinians are doing dumb shit but usually doing very little damage. Even when it was at its worst just the ratio of civilian deaths was incredibly disproportionate which ignores the far larger damage of crippling an entire society by instituting roadblocks, destroying any semblance of a government, etc etc.


So terrorism, targeting civilians, violating cease fires, using humanitarian infrastructure for war, etc, (plus passing these family values onto your children) only make you unsympathetic if you're particularly talented at it and can manage to kill more than a couple dozen at a time?


"I think what the Hamas are doing in suicide bombings and shooting missiles at civilians is deplorable, and I think we should stop our huge military, political and economical support of them. Now let's apply those same standards"

You seem to have missqualified the whole argument, as is often the case. I am saying Hamas are doing terrible shit. I am saying Israel is also doing terrible shit, and we should be more concerned with that. In fact we should be so concerned that we should not just stand idly by and let Israel sort out its own troubles because it has shown repeatedly to lack what it takes to do so in a manner not involving a permanent occupation and various other human rights abuses.

What I am not saying is Palestinians can do no harm, etc etc.
So if you're talking about "both sides" as Hamas/Fatah v. Israel/IDF, then yes, both sides are really rather unsympathetic. If you're talking about the two major sides of debate in western society, then no. You have half the guys saying Israel should be left alone to do what it wants, and the other ones supporting outside action in different forms. Both sides typically support the two state settlement these days, but people like yoni45 want Israel to determine when they are ready to negotiate, whereas I think the UN is better qualified. The reason the UN has not handled it yet is because of Vetoes by the US.

That was the not so short introduction to LaTeX Israel-Palestine

So both sides are terrible. Great, that has been the case in every single military conflict I have ever heard of, except when Angelicon Island invaded Satyrica.
But really is the key issue. A reasonable solution to this conflict will coerce both parties, you can't have as supremely unbalanced negotiating tables as has been the case previously.
//Yepp, THE fjafjan (who's THE fjafjan?)
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Aetius » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:14 am UTC

fjafjan wrote:So if you're talking about "both sides" as Hamas/Fatah v. Israel/IDF, then yes, both sides are really rather unsympathetic.


That's pretty much exactly what my first post in this thread said, which you replied to objecting to it. I don't think I'm the one that has misqualified the argument here.

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby fjafjan » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:25 am UTC

Aetius wrote:
fjafjan wrote:So if you're talking about "both sides" as Hamas/Fatah v. Israel/IDF, then yes, both sides are really rather unsympathetic.


That's pretty much exactly what my first post in this thread said, which you replied to objecting to it. I don't think I'm the one that has misqualified the argument here.

Well I objected because your following opinion was
Wake me when this conflict stops resembling two children fighting over a toy.

And that is objectionable because
A) Gives the impression that the conflict is in any real way equal in terms of power, and therefor in opportunities for ending it
but more importantly
B) It gives the impression that it's an isolated conflict and has not largely been allowed to continue for so long due to US support of Israel.

B there is a rather bad missconception for fairly obvious reasons.
//Yepp, THE fjafjan (who's THE fjafjan?)
Liza wrote:Fjafjan, your hair is so lovely that I want to go to Sweden, collect the bit you cut off in your latest haircut and keep it in my room, and smell it. And eventually use it to complete my shrine dedicated to you.

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby clintonius » Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:09 am UTC

Yoni: cease and desist or you'll be tossed from N&A.

Everybody else: trolls die if you don't feed them.

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:43 am UTC

clintonius wrote:Everybody else: trolls die if you don't feed them


I can't tell who the trolls are in this thread.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby tzvibish » Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:19 pm UTC

I'd like to try and bring some civility back into this discussion, if you don't mind.

Some things need to be said regarding this conflict that aren't said often, often ignored over the immediate death and suffering that pervades the region.

People tend to look at this conflict with a very present-minded perspective, that this conflict sort of popped up in a vaccum, and that it's as simple as finding the motives for harm and quashing the motive.

This conflict did not start in 1948, or anytime in the last hundred years. The conflict over Israel and specifically Jerusalem has been going on for millenia. The reasons are almost always the same, the results are always bloody, and the Jews are always somehow involved. The fact that the three big religions (although the fact that Jewish people make up less that 1% of the world's population always makes me wonder why they are viewed as a such a big deal) consider Jerusalem as one of the holiest cities in the world doesn't help in solving the conflict. When your ancestors, both in recent history and ancient history, faught and died for the land, it's very hard to think objectively and level-headedly about conflict resolution. The fact that every Israeli citizen is drafted in to the IDF at the age of 16 doesn't help, because the moment you are shot at or attacked by a Palestinian solely because you are an Iraeli, you start to lose your ability to think logically about pursuing peace. When you think about it, almost every government official in Israel has probably been involved in a conflict with palestinians, and you can't deny the effect that it has on your thought process. In the third and fourth generation of this, it becomes even harder. and many Israeli's nationalist/zionist ideas don't just go back to 1948, but to the 2nd century CE, when the Jews were officially expelled from their land, only to officially return as a sovereign nation 2000 years later. The Arab-Jewish/Israeli conflict has also been a powder keg since early in the millenium, and that plays a big part in the animosity, regardless of any homeland dispute.

What I'm trying to get at is that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is much more complex and multi-faceted than simply a 60 year old border conflict. There is a whole bunch of history that people tend to ignore when talking about the issues, and it's critical that events be taken in the proper historical and social context. There is no right or wrong party here. It's all grey area when you start writing names on the board and keeping score. Determining an accountabole party and punishing them will ultimatetely be a futile excersize resulting in universal distrust and a restarting of the cycle of violence and fear we all know so well.

So, stop arguing about who is right and wrong. It's a war, and war sucks. Stopping a war will not happen by playing the blame game.

Personally, I feel nore sadness than anger over the situation. Justified anger can only manifest when you know without a doubt what should be happening. How many of you have been in an urban warfare environment, in crowded slums, being shot at, not knowing who the enemy is? How many of you have lived as a palestinian, enmenshed in their culture, indoctrinated with the brand of Islam that promotes killing innoncent people to achieve your goal? How many of you had to face decisions that will decide the fate of a person, where it's up to you to decide if they are planning to shoot you or shiit rockets into your neighborhood?

Until we get off our ivory tower of rationed thought, logical inquiry, and casual knowledge of the motives of all the players in the region, we will not come to a viable solution in this forum, and possibly on any News forum out there. I don't know what the solution is, and I hate commenting on issues without having somthing constructive to say about it, but the ceaseless and pointless argument over this issue here is missing the point and will accomplish nothing. I only people on both sides could see this.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Dangermouse » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:26 pm UTC

tzvibish wrote:I'd like to try and bring some civility back into this discussion, if you don't mind.

Some things need to be said regarding this conflict that aren't said often, often ignored over the immediate death and suffering that pervades the region.

People tend to look at this conflict with a very present-minded perspective, that this conflict sort of popped up in a vaccum, and that it's as simple as finding the motives for harm and quashing the motive.

This conflict did not start in 1948, or anytime in the last hundred years. The conflict over Israel and specifically Jerusalem has been going on for millenia. The reasons are almost always the same, the results are always bloody, and the Jews are always somehow involved. The fact that the three big religions (although the fact that Jewish people make up less that 1% of the world's population always makes me wonder why they are viewed as a such a big deal) consider Jerusalem as one of the holiest cities in the world doesn't help in solving the conflict. When your ancestors, both in recent history and ancient history, faught and died for the land, it's very hard to think objectively and level-headedly about conflict resolution. The fact that every Israeli citizen is drafted in to the IDF at the age of 16 doesn't help, because the moment you are shot at or attacked by a Palestinian solely because you are an Iraeli, you start to lose your ability to think logically about pursuing peace. When you think about it, almost every government official in Israel has probably been involved in a conflict with palestinians, and you can't deny the effect that it has on your thought process. In the third and fourth generation of this, it becomes even harder. and many Israeli's nationalist/zionist ideas don't just go back to 1948, but to the 2nd century CE, when the Jews were officially expelled from their land, only to officially return as a sovereign nation 2000 years later. The Arab-Jewish/Israeli conflict has also been a powder keg since early in the millenium, and that plays a big part in the animosity, regardless of any homeland dispute.

What I'm trying to get at is that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is much more complex and multi-faceted than simply a 60 year old border conflict. There is a whole bunch of history that people tend to ignore when talking about the issues, and it's critical that events be taken in the proper historical and social context. There is no right or wrong party here. It's all grey area when you start writing names on the board and keeping score. Determining an accountabole party and punishing them will ultimatetely be a futile excersize resulting in universal distrust and a restarting of the cycle of violence and fear we all know so well.

So, stop arguing about who is right and wrong. It's a war, and war sucks. Stopping a war will not happen by playing the blame game.

Personally, I feel nore sadness than anger over the situation. Justified anger can only manifest when you know without a doubt what should be happening. How many of you have been in an urban warfare environment, in crowded slums, being shot at, not knowing who the enemy is? How many of you have lived as a palestinian, enmenshed in their culture, indoctrinated with the brand of Islam that promotes killing innoncent people to achieve your goal? How many of you had to face decisions that will decide the fate of a person, where it's up to you to decide if they are planning to shoot you or shiit rockets into your neighborhood?

Until we get off our ivory tower of rationed thought, logical inquiry, and casual knowledge of the motives of all the players in the region, we will not come to a viable solution in this forum, and possibly on any News forum out there. I don't know what the solution is, and I hate commenting on issues without having somthing constructive to say about it, but the ceaseless and pointless argument over this issue here is missing the point and will accomplish nothing. I only people on both sides could see this.


Thank you for putting into words what I could only quote from someone else:

"So many of these conflicts -- one might say almost all of them -- end up shaped by the same virtually universal deficiency: excessive tribalistic identification (i.e.: the group with which I was trained to identify is right and good and just and my group's enemy is bad and wrong and violent), which causes people to view the world only from the perspective of their side, to believe that X is good when they do it and evil when it's done to them. X can be torture, or the killing of civilians in order to "send a message" (i.e., Terrorism), or invading and occupying other people's land, or using massive lethal force against defenseless populations, or seeing one's own side as composed of real humans and the other side as sub-human, evil barbarians. As George Orwell wrote in Notes on Nationalism -- with perfect prescience to today's endless conflicts (h/t Hume's Ghost):

All nationalists have the power of not seeing resemblances between similar sets of facts. A British Tory will defend self-determination in Europe and oppose it in India with no feeling of inconsistency. Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits, but according to who does them, and there is almost no kind of outrage — torture, the use of hostages, forced labour, mass deportations, imprisonment without trial, forgery, assassination, the bombing of civilians — which does not change its moral colour when it is committed by ‘our’ side ... The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them

For those who evaluate moral questions from that blindingly self-regarding perspective, anything and everything becomes easily justifiable."

@Yoni: I'm interested in hearing why this is wrong. If you can provide a response besides "ur ignorant" then I'd love to hear it.

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby yoni45 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:34 pm UTC

Dangermouse wrote:@Yoni: I'm interested in hearing why this is wrong.


I'm not sure entirely sure why you'd be under the impression that it's wrong. It's largely accurate.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby tzvibish » Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:44 pm UTC

yoni45 wrote:
Dangermouse wrote:@Yoni: I'm interested in hearing why this is wrong.


I'm not sure entirely sure why you'd be under the impression that it's wrong. It's largely accurate.


Well, you certainly don't sound like it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm on your side in general. But the discourse surrounding these issues cannot devolve into blame matches and have any hope of being constructive. Solutions are not going to be discovered by blaming the other side. Even a moron can figure that one out. I have PM'd people on this forum to discuss the conflict, in a non-public, non-cynical environment and for the most part have gained valuable insight from those conversations. Every time some troll (from both sides) comes in here with an articl from ha'aretz, lines are drawn, the same arguments are thrown back and forth, and everyone hates the other side just a little more.

It's depressing.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby aleflamedyud » Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:55 pm UTC

Yeah, Ha'aretz English Edition is a bizarre combination of full-service, multi-section broadsheet newspaper with anti-Zionist (sorry, they call themselves "post-Zionist" because they're Israeli anti-Zionists) trolling. It's actually worse on the internet than it is in the print edition, too.

I don't say this out of disagreeing with Ha'aretz's ideology, because sometimes I think their print edition makes some damn decent points. On the other hand, the day the Israeli police arrested a Jew who had made aliyah in order to murder homosexuals, Jews he thought of as too secular and lots of Arabs, Ha'aretz printed a front page article alleging that the government would have pursued and arrested him faster if he'd mostly killed Jews. It had no facts backing it up, either;it was straight-up trolling put on the front page of a major newspaper just to maintain an oppositional stance towards the government.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby EMTP » Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:08 pm UTC

tzvibish wrote:
I would have no problem discussing the honest issues. I just have a problem with EMTP starting this thread with the clear intent of starting a war, and taking a news story out of context to achieve that goal.


On what basis do you blame me for other people's trolling?

There is no need whatsoever for a discussion of racism in Israel to start a flame war.

It is the people who respond with accusations of anti-Semitism and paranoid xenophobia (the world is against us!) that force the discussion toward a flame war.

I decline to be bullied by trolls to ignore important issues because they chose (strategically?) to blow a gasket every time they come up.

Here, enjoy some knowledge:

* In practice, Palestinian citizens of Israel are
blocked from purchasing or leasing land in about
80% of the area of the state.

* The Palestinian population in Israel increased
six-fold between 1948 and 2000, but in the same
period, the land under its control has shrunk.
Since its establishment, the state has not allowed
the Arab minority to establish new towns. As a
result, the building density in Arab municipalities
increased 16-fold, and the population density 12-
fold, between 1948 and 2000.


http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:5q ... =firefox-a

aleflamedyud wrote:Yeah, Ha'aretz English Edition is a bizarre combination of full-service, multi-section broadsheet newspaper with anti-Zionist (sorry, they call themselves "post-Zionist" because they're Israeli anti-Zionists) trolling.


They don't call themselves either post-Zionist or anti-Zionist. You've made that assertion before, and been unable to support it.

On the other hand, the day the Israeli police arrested a Jew who had made aliyah in order to murder homosexuals, Jews he thought of as too secular and lots of Arabs, Ha'aretz printed a front page article alleging that the government would have pursued and arrested him faster if he'd mostly killed Jews. It had no facts backing it up, either;it was straight-up trolling put on the front page of a major newspaper just to maintain an oppositional stance towards the government.


Actually, that was an excellent article:

Experience - and statistics - show that Israeli law enforcement is remarkably lax when it comes to tackling violence against Palestinians. Twelve years ago, Teitel confessed to killing two Arabs and then took a break from such activity. Sure, he was detained for questioning after the murder of shepherd Issa Mahamra, but he was released due to insufficient evidence. As with many other cases of murder and violence committed against Palestinians, the story of the shepherd from Yatta and the taxi driver from East Jerusalem disappeared into oblivion - until Teitel returned and attempted to harm Jews, bringing the wrath of public opinion, the Shin Bet security service and the Israel Police down on his head. . . .

For instance, at least six shooting attacks against Palestinians in 2001-2002 have remained unsolved. The most shocking incident took place in July 2001, when three members of the Tamaizi family were shot to death by a man in a skullcap, according to relatives. The gunman asked the driver of the vehicle to stop, as it drove from one end of the village of Idna to the other, after a family wedding. When it stopped, he opened fire. But it's doubtful that Israelis remember that 3-month-old Dai Marwan Tamaizi, born after his parents underwent 14 years of fertility treatments, was killed that day - as were Mohammed Salameh Tamaizi, 27, an only child, and Mohammed Hilmi al-Tamaizi, 24, who was engaged to be married.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1125244.html

First he came for the Palestinians, and they didn't speak up because they weren't Palestinians. Then it was the turn of Jews for Jesus. Then gays, and finally, it seems, the police.

It's an interesting problem. Can the Israeli consensus -- which ignores when it does not give full-throated endorsement of sadistic violence against Palestinian civilians -- succeed in keeping that violence directed exclusively at Palestinians, when so many of their "private contractors" in the settlement movement are eager to diversify their hatred and pogroms to other (Jewish) minority communities, and even the state itself? It's a classic golem problem, and I don't know if there's any solution for it (besides, of course, ending their five decades of military rule in the West Bank.)
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby tzvibish » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:14 am UTC

Hate to quote my own post on the same page, but:
tzvibish wrote:I'd like to try and bring some civility back into this discussion, if you don't mind.

Some things need to be said regarding this conflict that aren't said often, often ignored over the immediate death and suffering that pervades the region.

People tend to look at this conflict with a very present-minded perspective, that this conflict sort of popped up in a vaccum, and that it's as simple as finding the motives for harm and quashing the motive.

This conflict did not start in 1948, or anytime in the last hundred years. The conflict over Israel and specifically Jerusalem has been going on for millenia. The reasons are almost always the same, the results are always bloody, and the Jews are always somehow involved. The fact that the three big religions (although the fact that Jewish people make up less that 1% of the world's population always makes me wonder why they are viewed as a such a big deal) consider Jerusalem as one of the holiest cities in the world doesn't help in solving the conflict. When your ancestors, both in recent history and ancient history, faught and died for the land, it's very hard to think objectively and level-headedly about conflict resolution. The fact that every Israeli citizen is drafted in to the IDF at the age of 16 doesn't help, because the moment you are shot at or attacked by a Palestinian solely because you are an Iraeli, you start to lose your ability to think logically about pursuing peace. When you think about it, almost every government official in Israel has probably been involved in a conflict with palestinians, and you can't deny the effect that it has on your thought process. In the third and fourth generation of this, it becomes even harder. and many Israeli's nationalist/zionist ideas don't just go back to 1948, but to the 2nd century CE, when the Jews were officially expelled from their land, only to officially return as a sovereign nation 2000 years later. The Arab-Jewish/Israeli conflict has also been a powder keg since early in the millenium, and that plays a big part in the animosity, regardless of any homeland dispute.

What I'm trying to get at is that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is much more complex and multi-faceted than simply a 60 year old border conflict. There is a whole bunch of history that people tend to ignore when talking about the issues, and it's critical that events be taken in the proper historical and social context. There is no right or wrong party here. It's all grey area when you start writing names on the board and keeping score. Determining an accountabole party and punishing them will ultimatetely be a futile excersize resulting in universal distrust and a restarting of the cycle of violence and fear we all know so well.

So, stop arguing about who is right and wrong. It's a war, and war sucks. Stopping a war will not happen by playing the blame game.

Personally, I feel nore sadness than anger over the situation. Justified anger can only manifest when you know without a doubt what should be happening. How many of you have been in an urban warfare environment, in crowded slums, being shot at, not knowing who the enemy is? How many of you have lived as a palestinian, enmenshed in their culture, indoctrinated with the brand of Islam that promotes killing innoncent people to achieve your goal? How many of you had to face decisions that will decide the fate of a person, where it's up to you to decide if they are planning to shoot you or shiit rockets into your neighborhood?

Until we get off our ivory tower of rationed thought, logical inquiry, and casual knowledge of the motives of all the players in the region, we will not come to a viable solution in this forum, and possibly on any News forum out there. I don't know what the solution is, and I hate commenting on issues without having somthing constructive to say about it, but the ceaseless and pointless argument over this issue here is missing the point and will accomplish nothing. I only people on both sides could see this.


EMTP, you're playing the blame game you always play, and you accomplish nothing by saying the solution needs to come from an apologetic Israel because they are an evil and despotic apartheid. I know that you a decent grasp on the history of the region, and you should know and understand that this conflict is much deeper than simple power plays and barbarism.

If you're so objective and innocent of trolling, tell me why you would post an article that talks about an issue that hasn't even been resolved yet and is awaiting final judgement from the courts. Other than to say "Hey, look what evil action the Israelis did today", this story is totally irrelevent to anything. It was simply to get a rise out of the pro-Israel people here, and congratulations, you succeeded. Now what?

We actually managed to steer this thread into an interesting discussion about providing public housing to non-citizen spouses of citizens, but that was quashed pretty quickly.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby EMTP » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:48 am UTC

tzvibish wrote:
This conflict did not start in 1948, or anytime in the last hundred years. The conflict over Israel and specifically Jerusalem has been going on for millenia. The reasons are almost always the same, the results are always bloody, and the Jews are always somehow involved.


That's historically inaccurate, and it's a way of dodging responsibility using lazy-journalist cliche ("ancient hatreds for millenia.")

In reality, about a hundred years and change ago, a group of European Jews decided to target Palestine for colonization, fully realizing that the Palestinians (they saw them as Arabs) would have to be removed ("spirited away" in Hertzl's lingo) so they could be replaced by Jews.

That's where the conflict started. Full stop.

When your ancestors, both in recent history and ancient history, faught and died for the land, it's very hard to think objectively and level-headedly about conflict resolution. The fact that every Israeli citizen is drafted in to the IDF at the age of 16 doesn't help, because the moment you are shot at or attacked by a Palestinian solely because you are an Iraeli, you start to lose your ability to think logically about pursuing peace. When you think about it, almost every government official in Israel has probably been involved in a conflict with palestinians, and you can't deny the effect that it has on your thought process.


True enough.

In the third and fourth generation of this, it becomes even harder. and many Israeli's nationalist/zionist ideas don't just go back to 1948, but to the 2nd century CE, when the Jews were officially expelled from their land, only to officially return as a sovereign nation 2000 years later. The Arab-Jewish/Israeli conflict has also been a powder keg since early in the millenium, and that plays a big part in the animosity, regardless of any homeland dispute.


That's not true. Judaism decide in the 4th century AD that to "hasten the end" was an evil, un-Jewish thing to do, and that it was forbidden by the Torah. So things stood for 1,500 years, until a cadre of pork-eating atheists decided that colonizing the Middle East was the solution to anti-Semitism in Europe. In the 19th century.

What I'm trying to get at is that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is much more complex and multi-faceted than simply a 60 year old border conflict. There is a whole bunch of history that people tend to ignore when talking about the issues, and it's critical that events be taken in the proper historical and social context.


Racism is wrong. Discriminating against someone because of who they are married to is wrong. There is no social or historical conflict that makes that OK.

There is no right or wrong party here. It's all grey area when you start writing names on the board and keeping score. Determining an accountabole party and punishing them will ultimatetely be a futile excersize resulting in universal distrust and a restarting of the cycle of violence and fear we all know so well.


Determining who is accountable and not punishing them but making them stop is the way we got rid of slavery, of the criminalization of homosexuality, of apartheid.

So, stop arguing about who is right and wrong. It's a war, and war sucks. Stopping a war will not happen by playing the blame game.


War is not some magic balm that excuses everything you do, to your own minorities as well as to the enemy. Israel has always considered itself to be at war, whether or not anyone was making war on them. It's their mentality, and they use it excuse the things they want to do to the people anyway.

Personally, I feel nore sadness than anger over the situation. Justified anger can only manifest when you know without a doubt what should be happening. How many of you have been in an urban warfare environment, in crowded slums, being shot at, not knowing who the enemy is? How many of you have lived as a palestinian, enmenshed in their culture, indoctrinated with the brand of Islam that promotes killing innoncent people to achieve your goal? How many of you had to face decisions that will decide the fate of a person, where it's up to you to decide if they are planning to shoot you or shiit rockets into your neighborhood?


You are far more likely to be indoctrinated into killing innocent people by the IDF than you are by the predominately secular Palestinian society. Like all societies under occupation, they resist, but they resist in order to be free, not, like the glad-handled Jewish terrorist mentioned above, because they see the Other as fundamentally inferior and unworthy of life.

EMTP, you're playing the blame game you always play, and you accomplish nothing by saying the solution needs to come from an apologetic Israel because they are an evil and despotic apartheid. I know that you a decent grasp on the history of the region, and you should know and understand that this conflict is much deeper than simple power plays and barbarism.


Who's playing the blame game? This is an aspect of what's going on over there, stuff we're supporting with taxes dollars and diplomatic cover. I never said it was the only thing or that it explained everything. You could acknowledge that this policy is racist, unfair, and self-destructive, and that would not bring Zionism to ruin since, as you point out, all societies have their problems.

If you're so objective and innocent of trolling, tell me why you would post an article that talks about an issue that hasn't even been resolved yet and is awaiting final judgement from the courts. Other than to say "Hey, look what evil action the Israelis did today", this story is totally irrelevent to anything. It was simply to get a rise out of the pro-Israel people here, and congratulations, you succeeded. Now what?


Maybe "Hey, guess what you tax dollars helped happen today?" is not a bad discussion to have. Regardless of what the courts decide, this is the policy of the government, they are sticking to it despite the criticism, and it is already affecting people. So I think it's important. People who think I bring up these thing solely to get a rise out of them (I don't) are free to thwart my evil scheme by not responding.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby tzvibish » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:01 pm UTC

Let me make myself clearer:

I would love to talk about the issues. We actually started talking about it, and I thought it was going well (I am still waiting for a response, unless you haven't been getting my PMs). I know you have a lot to say, and I want to listen and discuss. But if you're going to bring it up, bring it up for real instead of disguising it in posts that discuss ongoing cases in Israel that point to nothing.

I say you're playing the blame game because you seem tp have an agenda of focusing people on the wrongdoings of Israel. And I'm not saying they're angels. But it's the same thing as saying "Israel is the victim! They're being terrorized by the evel palestinians!" If I said that, I would be reamed out for pointing fingers and not finding a solution. But you post articles with that same motive, to say "Palestinians shouldn't be blamed for killing people, look at what the Israelis are doing!" It's circular, and it's pointless.

War is not an excuse, it's a mindset that is different than peacetime in that proving a side to be in the wrong doesn't do anything. So the discussions are meaningless. Like you said, war is stopped not by punishing one side but by stopping war. The discussion of who is more evil does nothing to accomplish that goal.

I don't know how you can come to the conclusion that Israel hasn't been a hotbed of confict for miillenia. This goes back to the Greeks and Alexander the Great. It continues with the Romans, the Persians, the Syrians, on to the Crusades, and Islam. The Ottomans had it for a while until the british took over after WWI. And if you want to go farther back into Biblical history, see the beginning of Genesis and the war of the 4 kings and 5 kings.

And if you know any Jewish History, you would know that Jews have been returning to Israel in waves since the 11th century or so. And even through multiple expulsions in the 3rd-4th centuries (I might be wrong about that date), there was still a Jewish proesence in the north where some noted schools of Jewish Law were built.

It's narrow-minded to view the current conflict as an isolated conflict. This is not to say that history is an excuse, but that you can't just dismiss deeds as racism or barbarism just because that's all you see. There is a long history, and it all plays into the drama. When you look at it from that perspective, cases like a public housing dispute seem asinine.

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Random832 » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:42 pm UTC

tzvibish wrote:I don't know how you can come to the conclusion that Israel hasn't been a hotbed of confict for miillenia.


That's not a conclusion that anyone came to. The problem is you are saying it is the same uninterrupted conflict, apparently mainly to suit a political goal of avoiding the question of who is the aggressor.

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby tzvibish » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:51 pm UTC

Random832 wrote:
tzvibish wrote:I don't know how you can come to the conclusion that Israel hasn't been a hotbed of confict for miillenia.


That's not a conclusion that anyone came to. The problem is you are saying it is the same uninterrupted conflict, apparently mainly to suit a political goal of avoiding the question of who is the aggressor.


The conflict has always been over ownership of the land. It still is now.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Belial » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:54 pm UTC

Much like if Norway invades Britain tomorrow, it's the same conflict that the vikings and celts have been fighting for millenia.

That's how it works, right?
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby tzvibish » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:04 pm UTC

Belial wrote:Much like if Norway invades Britain tomorrow, it's the same conflict that the vikings and celts have been fighting for millenia.

That's how it works, right?


Yes, if the motives were the same then as they are now. I'm not saying it's one big war, but it is the same conflict repeated over and over again.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Belial » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:13 pm UTC

tzvibish wrote:
Belial wrote:Much like if Norway invades Britain tomorrow, it's the same conflict that the vikings and celts have been fighting for millenia.

That's how it works, right?


Yes, if the motives were the same then as they are now. I'm not saying it's one big war, but it is the same conflict repeated over and over again.


Okay, let's try this again from the top: if you and I had a fistfight two weeks ago, and since then we've been mostly chill to each other, stayed out of each others' way, and generally not had any problems....

...and then tomorrow I walk into the room, suckerpunch you, and steal your wallet....

It is pretty fucking clear who the aggressor is, and the fistfight two weeks ago doesn't change that.

And if I continue to stand over you, kicking you in the ribs while you punch feebly at my shins, I don't think anyone will have any trouble deciding which of us needs to be subdued before the "fight" can stop. Nor, I think, would anyone excuse it as "just the same old fight, let them sort it out."

If they would, one of us needs better friends.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby tzvibish » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:20 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
tzvibish wrote:
Belial wrote:Much like if Norway invades Britain tomorrow, it's the same conflict that the vikings and celts have been fighting for millenia.

That's how it works, right?


Yes, if the motives were the same then as they are now. I'm not saying it's one big war, but it is the same conflict repeated over and over again.


Okay, let's try this again from the top: if you and I had a fistfight two weeks ago, and since then we've been mostly chill to each other, stayed out of each others' way, and generally not had any problems....

...and then tomorrow I walk into the room, suckerpunch you, and steal your wallet....

It is pretty fucking clear who the aggressor is, and the fistfight two weeks ago doesn't change that.

And if I continue to stand over you, kicking you in the ribs while you punch feebly at my shins, I don't think anyone will have any trouble deciding which of us needs to be subdued before the "fight" can stop.


That would make sense if you were really just standing there and doing nothing.

But you are obviously missing my point. I'm not making an excuse as to the behavior of the Israelis or the Palestinians. I'm saying that news stories like these mean nothing when you understand the actual scope of the problem. The big picture has very little to do with racism, and very much to do with the legality of the nationhood of Israel, and the history that cause that to happen. All issues stem from that.

You don't stop a war by subduing one side and not the other. You stop a war by stopping aggresion from both sides. And you definately don't stop a war by pointing fingers.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Random832 » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:24 pm UTC

tzvibish wrote:The big picture has very little to do with racism,


Yeah, well, the little picture matters too.

As for the big picture, the whole idea that a group has to be the majority-in-power to have "self-determination" (and therefore that they have to deny it to others) seems somehow skewed.

There's also a disturbing thread of "they're all brown people, right?" in the arguments that displaced Arabs should just be accepted as citizens by Egypt or Jordan. And that is racism.

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby tzvibish » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:44 pm UTC

Random832 wrote:
tzvibish wrote:The big picture has very little to do with racism,


Yeah, well, the little picture matters too.

As for the big picture, the whole idea that a group has to be the majority-in-power to have "self-determination" (and therefore that they have to deny it to others) seems somehow skewed.

There's also a disturbing thread of "they're all brown people, right?" in the arguments that displaced Arabs should just be accepted as citizens by Egypt or Jordan. And that is racism.


Solutions won't come from analyzing the small picture.

You're right about the displaced arabs problem, but I wouldn't call it racism. Just a misunderstanding of mid-east politics and culture.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby yoni45 » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:24 pm UTC

tzvibish wrote:Well, you certainly don't sound like it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm on your side in general. But the discourse surrounding these issues cannot devolve into blame matches and have any hope of being constructive. Solutions are not going to be discovered by blaming the other side...


Er? Is that response going to the right person? I don't particularly remember 'blaming' anyone for anything per se...
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Arancaytar » Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:32 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:In other news, no government in the world does favors for its enemies' people.


Enemy people? Don't we call them "people" these days? :(
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby psyck0 » Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:53 am UTC

OK. Tzvibish, what do you want us to do? You keep saying "leave Israel along, it's not only their fault, we can't fix this by going after them". What do we do, then? More bilateral meetings? Those have been partially successful in reducing tensions between Israel and other nations, but the Palestinian problem has only gotten worse and worse. Palestinians don't have a bargaining position- they are ruled by Israel, denied self-government or even government of any kind, even denied humanitarian aid. How do you have a bilateral meeting between a nation and a group of people quarantined within that nation who lack any kind of elected representative?

We have a chance to do some good by going after Israel. That does not mean leaving the others alone, it means fixing one side of the problem that we actually have a chance to fix while trying to get a handle on the other side. I don't know how to stop Palestinians blowing Israelis up. Stricter security hasn't worked, so it's gotta be something else. While we figure that out, why not do something to make the lives of the Palestinians better? It does no harm, makes it clear that the rest of the world is trying to resolve this, and improves the bargaining position of Israel to say "look, we did all these good things for you, now it's your turn" if meetings ever do start to go anywhere.

It is ALWAYS right to point out and target racism and discrimination. Leaving it alone because the problem is complex is pointless when we have a chance to fix at least part of the problem.


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