Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

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Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby EMTP » Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:55 am UTC

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1126794.html

Obtaining public housing in Israel is no easy task. Now it appears that obtaining public housing when one spouse is a resident of the territories is impossible, thanks to the policy whereby mixed families are completely ineligible for public housing, regardless of their financial situation.


. . . and for those unfamiliar with the Byzantine ways of the Israeli occupation, "resident of the territories" does not include any of the 500,000 Jews who reside in the West Bank. They are considered residents (and citizens) of Israel, even if they have never lived inside its internationally recognized borders.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby aleflamedyud » Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:37 am UTC

In other news, no government in the world does favors for its enemies' people.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Bubbles McCoy » Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:49 am UTC

I'm reasonably confident that American's have always been able to marry Cuban's and have them come over (so long as Cuba lets them) without being specifically set back by name in the welfare system, and more importantly how does providing welfare to those willfully let into your country specifically aid and abet the enemy?

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby aleflamedyud » Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:41 am UTC

Bubbles McCoy wrote:I'm reasonably confident that American's have always been able to marry Cuban's and have them come over (so long as Cuba lets them) without being specifically set back by name in the welfare system, and more importantly how does providing welfare to those willfully let into your country specifically aid and abet the enemy?

Honestly I can't remember when it became possible to bring a Palestinian Arab into Israel as a permanent resident by marrying them. Thus, the answer is "mu": your question depends upon incorrect assumptions.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby The Reaper » Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:31 pm UTC

I'm just curious as to what is done when the person you marry ISN'T some crazy militant?

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Dream » Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:31 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:In other news, no government in the world does favors for its enemies' people.

I would imagine they also don't consider their welfare states to be "favours", every living person of a particualar nationality to be "enemies", and most importantly don't consider their own citizen's spouses to be the enemy.

So in what way does Israel not "doing favours" for its "enemies" have any bearing at all on this case?
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Belial » Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:37 pm UTC

Man, they wouldn't want resident palestinians to *like* Israel for any reason, would they? Or even just not loathe it.

That would be crazy.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Pez Dispens3r » Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:12 pm UTC

No, but see, these people are already getting benefits from Al Quaeda, or something.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Zamfir » Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:24 pm UTC

Pez Dispens3r wrote:No, but see, these people are already getting benefits from Al Quaeda, or something.

I thought Palestinians mostly get money from Hezbollah and Hamas, who get money from Iran, who in turn don't like Al Qaeda at all.

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Belial » Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:28 pm UTC

The point is, once they move in with israeli roommates, they're clearly still receiving their Terror-Care™ benefits.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Dream » Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:47 pm UTC

Well, building homes for people who used to have homes but lost them through circumstances beyond their control is a central plank of Hamas electoral popularity. Stands to reason they should be good at housing benefits.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby psyck0 » Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:57 pm UTC

Hurrah, Israeli racism while the rest of the world is expected to shut up and say nothing because they're Jewish and we still feel bad for killing a whole bunch of them.

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby PhoenixRider » Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:37 pm UTC

The only reason why western leaders hush up about Israeli problems such as unrestrained nukes, Palestine ,racism and warcrimes is mostly because Israel is the only country in the middle east that absolutely supports the west. As Saudi and Jordan ofcourse support it's own arab people first before America.

So I don't see any repercussions until Israel goes even further right into Fascism. Which they seem to be getting closer too, ironically enough.

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:46 pm UTC

According to the organizations, which receive dozens of requests on this matter, the ministry ignores the right of female Israeli citizens to receive public housing when they are married to a spouse who is not Israeli - a practice contrary to the ministry's procedures and court rulings.


With due respect, the article framed the anecdote as an issue that was being handled, and seemed to be more a product of corrupt officials then Israeli policy. I'm not surprised to hear this has happened, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that in a reasonable period of time, non-Israeli husbands and wives will be granted public housing.

But two points, before further comments get made:
1) America isn't at war with Cuba, and Cuba hasn't, in recent years, suicide bombed American targets, military or civilian. Israel has a right to be cautious when granting public housing to state enemies.
2) Any countries policies pertaining to welfare should obviously and firstly go to it's citizens. I see no problem with not providing public housing for foreign populations, I do however, see a problem with preventing non-citizens from becoming citizens. The article made no claim as to what sort of application for immigration or citizenship the non-Israeli had undertaken.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby aleflamedyud » Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:30 pm UTC

PhoenixRider wrote:The only reason why western leaders hush up about Israeli problems such as unrestrained nukes, Palestine ,racism and warcrimes is mostly because Israel is the only country in the middle east that absolutely supports the west. As Saudi and Jordan ofcourse support it's own arab people first before America.

So I don't see any repercussions until Israel goes even further right into Fascism. Which they seem to be getting closer too, ironically enough.

Calling us fascists and accusing us of racism and war crimes on flimsy evidence is surely the way to endear us to your ideas and bring about a happy reconciliation! Do you know why Israel seems to behave as though the rest of the world is its enemy? Because the rest of the world behaves as though Israel is their enemy.

I have never heard someone constructively criticize Israel. I've never heard them say, "this and that policy really need improvement, dudes". Instead I have heard, from the first day I started listening, everyone talking about Israel as though every minor flaw and every human imperfection makes the country irreparably evil and justifies its forcible disestablishment. This trend of demonizing Israel, and consequently Jews (antisemitic attacks in Europe and America hit new peaks with each operation/war Israel fights), started with the Second Intifada and 9/11, not the ever-vilified Operation Cast Lead. The trend of fighting a propaganda war against Israel started when Arafat broke off negotiations at Camp David and Taba in favor of suicide bombings and when segments of the Western political classes looking for a reason to the madness of 9/11 fingered American diplomatic support of Israel.

Can you see how we might get a little testy in light of these trends, which clearly display that Israel's actual actions now serve as mere excuses for anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish sentiments rather than real causes? Can you understand our skepticism of highly editorialized news reporting clearly intended to portray our country and government in a negative light when people's present-day political sentiments have led them to adopt entire alternative histories of the region dating back decades if not hundreds or even thousands of years?

So forgive us if we act irritated when we hear "you're not being nice enough to Arabs" and think of it as trolling, because it is trolling. Especially from EMTP and Ha'aretz, whose article appears light on discussing the actual implications of the current policy or any proposed changed policy in favor of just pointing a big foam finger at "R" and "A" and yelling "PITY TEH POOR AY-RABS!!!!1 EVIL JOO STATE DENIES AY-RABS FREE HOUSING!"

Of course, that's how Ha'aretz works. When the police arrested a Jewish terrorist and murderer who had killed Palestinians, secular Jews, and homosexuals, Ha'aretz ran a front-page story blaming the government for not catching him as fast as they'd catch a Palestinian terrorist.

Any countries policies pertaining to welfare should obviously and firstly go to it's citizens.

Oh yeah, forgot about that. In fact, doesn't the whole premise behind this article, that Israeli Arabs should have the right to bring in Palestinian Arab spouses, sort of assume that Arabs are really Palestinians instead of Israelis no matter their citizenship? Otherwise it would make no sense to grant someone public housing for their foreign spouse on the sensible grounds that public housing should go to citizens of our own country. The only reason to give an Arab couple composed of an Israeli Arab and a Palestinian Arab public-housing privileges is if Arabs are an entirely separate and non-Israeli nation somehow entitled to special privileges from the Israeli government. On what grounds, that they tried to kill the Jews and lost? But the Israeli Arabs made their peace with the Jews and became citizens of Israel!

Well look at that. Ha'aretz appears to think Arabs aren't really Israelis. Of course, that's OK because it's done in the context of demanding more rights/privileges for Arabs on the government teat.

If you want to know why they can't just make "A" a citizen of Israel... examine the implications of such a policy that allows such things. Palestinian Arabs would flood into Israel under the guise of marriage. Not only would the demographics get fucked up to the point of making Israel not a Jewish state anymore (essentially winning the Arab "right of return" through clandestine action), but terrorists would rather easily get into the country and start killing Evil Zionist Jews and our Dirty Collaborators the Israeli Arabs.

Now I'm going to go do something fun and let off the damn steam.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Belial » Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:38 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:In other news, no government in the world does favors for its enemies' people.

aleflamedyud wrote:Do you know why <blank 1> seems to behave as though the <blank 2> is its enemy? Because <blank 2> behaves as though <blank 1> is their enemy.



There's some kind of point here that emerges between these two quotes...

While I'm meditating in search of that deep wisdom, I can't help wondering if treating people living in your country and bunking with (or marrying) your people as enemies is maybe less than wise.

Y'know. Assuming your goal was to have less conflict. If you're super-psyched about the conflict and want more please, then by all means....
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Heisenberg » Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:39 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:I have never heard someone constructively criticize Israel. I've never heard them say, "this and that policy really need improvement, dudes". Instead I have heard, from the first day I started listening, everyone talking about Israel as though every minor flaw and every human imperfection makes the country irreparably evil and justifies its forcible disestablishment.

Well, there are two possible explanations. Either all of Israel's critics think the entire country is evil, or perhaps you are hearing these arguments through a filter. Because it is easy to view criticism as accusation, I think the latter is more likely.

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby tzvibish » Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:39 pm UTC

@OP: Before you start half-quoting newspaper articles and exhibiting them as discriminoatory and Byzantine poilcy, you should read the rest of of the article. The article specifically says,
The Rest Of The Article wrote:At that time the ministry said she did meet the criteria, but added that her request was rejected because she "is married to a spouse who is not an Israeli citizen and does not reside in Israel.


I don't think it is Byzantine to deny public housing to someone who is not a citizen. If you are married to someone who is not a citizen, then it would make sense that you would be living with him/her, and it would follow that they should not be granted public housing. This case, an exception, where the husband is actually not allowed to live in the house, is being treated as such, and is currently going to the exceptions commitees to come to a legal ruling.

If you're going to lurk around Israeli newspaper sites looking for anything to post up here that damns the Israelis, at least quote the entire article, however inconsequential it is.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Random832 » Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:47 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:Oh yeah, forgot about that. In fact, doesn't the whole premise behind this article, that Israeli Arabs should have the right to bring in Palestinian Arab spouses, sort of assume that Arabs are really Palestinians instead of Israelis no matter their citizenship? Otherwise it would make no sense to grant someone public housing for their foreign spouse on the sensible grounds that public housing should go to citizens of our own country.


How does that otherwise make no sense? It makes perfect sense to grant citizens public housing regardless of who they marry. Your premise is that they're not really citizens. (which explains why you're characterizing your opponents that way, since it's a convenient way to force them to appear to have conceded to your argument)

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby doogly » Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:48 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:I have never heard someone constructively criticize Israel. I've never heard them say, "this and that policy really need improvement, dudes".
....
Not only would the demographics get fucked up to the point of making Israel not a Jewish state anymore.

The policy of maintaining a Jewish state needs improvement, dudes.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Random832 » Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:54 pm UTC

There's a term for when states other than Israel attempt to force their demographics to fit a certain profile. It's two words, the first starts with an "E", the second starts with a "C".

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:56 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:Calling us fascists and accusing us of racism and war crimes on flimsy evidence is surely the way to endear us to your ideas and bring about a happy reconciliation! Do you know why Israel seems to behave as though the rest of the world is its enemy? Because the rest of the world behaves as though Israel is their enemy.
Welcome to international politics 101. Have a seat, and remember: The only reason the rest of the world hasn't killed you and taken all your shit is because of a tentative alliance between people threatening to blow up the world if anyone makes any wrong moves.
aleflamedyud wrote:I have never heard someone constructively criticize Israel. I've never heard them say, "this and that policy really need improvement, dudes".
...seriously? Not even critics in Israel? Not even pro-Israel critics? I find this... uh, a little unlikely. Maybe you hang out at the wrong places?
aleflamedyud wrote:If you want to know why they can't just make "A" a citizen of Israel... examine the implications of such a policy that allows such things. Palestinian Arabs would flood into Israel under the guise of marriage. Not only would the demographics get fucked up to the point of making Israel not a Jewish state anymore (essentially winning the Arab "right of return" through clandestine action)...
Your second point is fine and well (there are issues with just letting anyone become a citizen when they want to), but I just wanted to point this out. Seriously? You're worried that you'll lose the 'culture war'? "Oh God no, they're outbreeding us! QUICK, HAVE MORE CHILDREN BEFORE WE'RE NO LONGER ADEQUATELY REPRESENTED BY DEMOGRAPHICS!"

This sort of behavior is kind of ridiculous, and assuming it's a mindset attached to a great number of people in Israel, I can understand why so many people's foreheads have grown rough and red from the constant self-inflicted palm-slapping. Unless you think there's some sort of widespread plot by non-Israel citizens to take over Israel's voting structure through an aggressive plan of breeding--and to then set up some sort of apartheid state through sheer volume of voting numbers alone--I don't see how this is anything but sensationalistic histrionics aimed to terrify the populace of the foreign threat invading our precious womenfolk's wombs1.

1Not to imply that your argument is intrinsically sexist, you didn't even mention sex--but that's one of the many stupid ideas often associated with this sort of cultural 'it's-us-or-them!' mentality.

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby tzvibish » Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:09 pm UTC

Here's a question: If a woman in America married a Mexican guy who doesn't have citizenship, and they apply for public housing, do you give it ti them?

I could definitely give opinions either way, but I don't think that denying it is a discriminatory practice.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Random832 » Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:14 pm UTC

tzvibish wrote:Here's a question: If a woman in America married a Mexican guy who doesn't have citizenship, and they apply for public housing, do you give it ti them?


What if the answer to that question is no, but it's yes if the guy is Canadian? The implication in this article is that it's an ad-hoc decision rather than a written policy, and that it was mainly motivated by ethnicity. (The article also is careful to specify that the difficulties apply mainly to female Israeli citizens - i.e. that a man would not have run into the same problems, so there's some implied sexism there as well)
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby doogly » Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:15 pm UTC

tzvibish wrote:Here's a question: If a woman in America married a Mexican guy who doesn't have citizenship, and they apply for public housing, do you give it ti them?

I could definitely give opinions either way, but I don't think that denying it is a discriminatory practice.


The couple absolutely gets public housing. This is really quite straightforward in America; one party in the couple is enough.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Zamfir » Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:19 pm UTC

tzvibish wrote:Here's a question: If a woman in America married a Mexican guy who doesn't have citizenship, and they apply for public housing, do you give it to them?

I can't answer for the US, but here in the Netherlands the answer is yes, definitely. In the first place, the marriage usually gives a permit of residence to the non-citizen. In the second place, the housing would go to the woman, who is a citizen. Her being married to someone who is not would not have much to do with it.

If your country gives larger public housing (or more subsidy) to married couples than to single people, I can see how you would count a citizen/non-citizen couple as a "single" person. Is that what is going on? It's not really clear.

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby doogly » Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:23 pm UTC

Since* any children born to a citizen and a non-citizen are automatically full citizens, the family unit (even without any children existing) gets full happy treatment. It does get tricky if the spouse isn't a legal immigrant, though. You can bring someone over legally, but then it is a long process that I am much less familiar with.

*may of course be other reasons, but I think this is probably important.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby tzvibish » Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:25 pm UTC

I understand why you would to grant the housing to mixed-citizenship marriages.

But I also understand why you wouldn't. Even if you don't agree, at least understand that it is not a policy decision based on Ethnic cleansing and Byzantine.

Or, said another way, even if Israel was practicing ethnic cleansing, this is not an example of it.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:30 pm UTC

tzvibish wrote:I understand why you would to grant the housing to mixed-citizenship marriages.

But I also understand why you wouldn't. Even if you don't agree, at least understand that it is not a policy decision based on Ethnic cleansing and Byzantine.

Or, said another way, even if Israel was practicing ethnic cleansing, this is not an example of it.
It's hard to make that distinction; assuming you have two choices - each which have compelling reasons for you to make - but one which involves making life a little harder for Group A... And Group A is a group you have a lot of bad history with, and there's a back-and-forth about who's abusing who, and Group A has certainly done some awful things to you, and you've certainly done some awful things to them...

And, well, long story short, you pick the option that kinda screws Group A over.

"What?" you say. "This has nothing to do with all that history. We just decided that it was the best choice, y'know? This isn't merely yet another example in a long series of exchanged abuses--it was just what was best for us!"

I'm just saying - that's a very hard distinction to make - between anti-<blank> policy and pro-<blank> policy. The lines can often be blurred. Not that every policy decision has to benefit everyone equally, but it's fair to accuse people of being douches when there's fair reason to believe that they're just being douches.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Random832 » Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:31 pm UTC

tzvibish wrote:I understand why you would to grant the housing to mixed-citizenship marriages.

But I also understand why you wouldn't. Even if you don't agree, at least understand that it is not a policy decision based on Ethnic cleansing and Byzantine.


Well, except that the article strongly implies (and aleflamedyud hasn't bothered to attempt to reject that implication) that this is only for Arabs - or maybe even only for Palestinians rather than for all non-citizens, and that no actual example of any other country in the free world that would deny it has been named thus far.

Also, the article doesn't even _say_ that the Israeli citizen involved here is an Arab - we've all (on both sides) just assumed it. [To be fair, the balance of probabilities is such that this is almost certainly the case]

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby tzvibish » Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:37 pm UTC

And even after all the blurred lines and assumptions and probablities, this isn't something the government is ignoring. They realize the situation, and are dealing with it.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby aleflamedyud » Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:40 pm UTC

Unless you think there's some sort of widespread plot by non-Israel citizens to take over Israel's voting structure through an aggressive plan of breeding--and to then set up some sort of apartheid state through sheer volume of voting numbers alone

There is. It's called "the right of return", and it's the reason that Yasser Arafat said, "The womb of the Arab woman is my strongest weapon." Thus, the whole point of not giving a right of return and not allowing mass Arab immigration into Israel is to avoid demographic warfare and baby-making contests.

Not even critics in Israel? Not even pro-Israel critics?

Well OK, there are some of those. In fact, the entire Israeli political scene is full of people who think that the Israeli government needs to change to their preferred policy. I had sort of meant you know, outside of Israeli politics.

As to "pro-Israel critics", unfortunately being "pro-Israel" tends to be defined nowadays by not criticizing. There are, however, Zionist critics, but we tend to become Israeli self-critics within a matter of years.

So yeah. Perhaps a wee bit of hyperbole, but it got the damn point across, especially in light of things like:

There's a term for when states other than Israel attempt to force their demographics to fit a certain profile. It's two words, the first starts with an "E", the second starts with a "C".

Nice, so restricting immigration and subsidized housing in order to maintain our own culture is now ethnic cleansing. You know what, tell that to the Mexicans in America, the Algerians in France, and every bloody non-Japanese person in Japan.

The policy of maintaining a Jewish state needs improvement, dudes.

Jewish state? It's gotta go! And that's just political criticism, remember? Never mind that nobody has ever seriously suggested the abolition of all the other ethnonational states. Jewish self-determination is just that evil.

How does that otherwise make no sense? It makes perfect sense to grant citizens public housing regardless of who they marry. Your premise is that they're not really citizens. (which explains why you're characterizing your opponents that way, since it's a convenient way to force them to appear to have conceded to your argument)

Note that the person who caused the couple to be denied public housing was not a citizen, not even a permanent resident.

and aleflamedyud hasn't bothered to attempt to reject that implication

I didn't reject the implication because, being an experienced reader of Ha'aretz and a follower of Israeli affairs, I disregarded it as trolling fluff from the start. Please consider this the rejection of the implication. It's not like Israel has given welfare-state privileges to the Philippino and Thai guest-workers here, and they don't even have a history of anti-Zionist activism, let alone terrorism.

I sort of assumed, erroneously it appears, that the other people reading the article actually have some remote idea of what goes on in Israel instead of merely believing whatever propaganda gets thrown at them by the Arabs, the pro-Arab advocacy movements, and the adamantly pro-Arab writers of the Ha'aretz English edition. Lord knows that Israeli news sources get posted enough to the relevant forums that people might be able to figure out how to find 3-4 reliable sources of news about what goes on here.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:46 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:There is. It's called "the right of return", and it's the reason that Yasser Arafat said, "The womb of the Arab woman is my strongest weapon." Thus, the whole point of not giving a right of return and not allowing mass Arab immigration into Israel is to avoid demographic warfare and baby-making contests.
Well, okay, but unless we're talking about the usage of rape - or apartheid - I don't see how that's relevant or important. Maybe it helps that I'm not very nationalistic and I don't care when a culture is out-bred or rendered irrelevant by changing times; this demonstrates the superiority of the culture that replaces it. So long as it's not by means that violate the rights of those who are disappearing into history books...

The death of Jewish culture via natural means (see: other cultures being more popular) is no more a tragedy than the death of Islamic culture via natural means, or the death of Christian culture via natural means. I suppose I should be more sympathetic to those who exist within those cultures, though - I have a hard time caring, but it might mean more to me should this be something intrinsic to my identity.
aleflamedyud wrote:Well OK, there are some of those. In fact, the entire Israeli political scene is full of people who think that the Israeli government needs to change to their preferred policy. I had sort of meant you know, outside of Israeli politics.
I'm, uh, still reserving my 'really' face here. You mean you've never heard of someone outside of Israeli politics offer an insightful criticism of Israeli politics? Do you think that might not be a personal problem on your part? I mean, not trying to be insulting or anything, but... yeah, I'm having a hard time believing that.

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Random832 » Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:52 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:
Unless you think there's some sort of widespread plot by non-Israel citizens to take over Israel's voting structure through an aggressive plan of breeding--and to then set up some sort of apartheid state through sheer volume of voting numbers alone

There is. It's called "the right of return", and it's the reason that Yasser Arafat said, "The womb of the Arab woman is my strongest weapon." Thus, the whole point of not giving a right of return and not allowing mass Arab immigration into Israel is to avoid demographic warfare and baby-making contests.


Where, from there, do you get "set up some sort of apartheid state"? Maybe they just want to be fairly represented for their own legitimate interests (such as not having their houses bulldozed.)

As to "pro-Israel critics", unfortunately being "pro-Israel" tends to be defined nowadays by not criticizing.


Is that anything like the pro-America parts of America?

Nice, so restricting immigration and subsidized housing in order to maintain our own culture is now ethnic cleansing.


You can maintain your culture without denying other cultures who live on land you control the right to be citizens and vote.

Unless that's a core tenet of your culture or something, I guess.

It's not, right?

You know what, tell that to the Mexicans in America, the Algerians in France, and every bloody non-Japanese person in Japan.


Those countries are not the subject of this discussion. The fact that that is all I have to say about this should tell you something (subtitled for the meaning-impaired: it should tell you that Israel is not being singled out as you say it is.)

"Other countries are almost as bad" is not a defense.

Never mind that nobody has ever seriously suggested the abolition of all the other ethnonational states.


What "other ethnonational states"?

Note that the person who caused the couple to be denied public housing was not a citizen, not even a permanent resident.


You're right. Not even a temporary resident. Not even a proposed resident of the hypothetical public housing unit. What I'm driving at is that no couple was denied public housing. There was no attempt to get public housing for more than one person.
Last edited by Random832 on Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:59 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Dangermouse » Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:54 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:
PhoenixRider wrote:The only reason why western leaders hush up about Israeli problems such as unrestrained nukes, Palestine ,racism and warcrimes is mostly because Israel is the only country in the middle east that absolutely supports the west. As Saudi and Jordan ofcourse support it's own arab people first before America.

So I don't see any repercussions until Israel goes even further right into Fascism. Which they seem to be getting closer too, ironically enough.

Calling us fascists and accusing us of racism and war crimes on flimsy evidence is surely the way to endear us to your ideas and bring about a happy reconciliation! Do you know why Israel seems to behave as though the rest of the world is its enemy? Because the rest of the world behaves as though Israel is their enemy.

I have never heard someone constructively criticize Israel. I've never heard them say, "this and that policy really need improvement, dudes". Instead I have heard, from the first day I started listening, everyone talking about Israel as though every minor flaw and every human imperfection makes the country irreparably evil and justifies its forcible disestablishment. This trend of demonizing Israel, and consequently Jews (antisemitic attacks in Europe and America hit new peaks with each operation/war Israel fights), started with the Second Intifada and 9/11, not the ever-vilified Operation Cast Lead. The trend of fighting a propaganda war against Israel started when Arafat broke off negotiations at Camp David and Taba in favor of suicide bombings and when segments of the Western political classes looking for a reason to the madness of 9/11 fingered American diplomatic support of Israel.

Can you see how we might get a little testy in light of these trends, which clearly display that Israel's actual actions now serve as mere excuses for anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish sentiments rather than real causes? Can you understand our skepticism of highly editorialized news reporting clearly intended to portray our country and government in a negative light when people's present-day political sentiments have led them to adopt entire alternative histories of the region dating back decades if not hundreds or even thousands of years?

So forgive us if we act irritated when we hear "you're not being nice enough to Arabs" and think of it as trolling, because it is trolling. Especially from EMTP and Ha'aretz, whose article appears light on discussing the actual implications of the current policy or any proposed changed policy in favor of just pointing a big foam finger at "R" and "A" and yelling "PITY TEH POOR AY-RABS!!!!1 EVIL JOO STATE DENIES AY-RABS FREE HOUSING!"

Of course, that's how Ha'aretz works. When the police arrested a Jewish terrorist and murderer who had killed Palestinians, secular Jews, and homosexuals, Ha'aretz ran a front-page story blaming the government for not catching him as fast as they'd catch a Palestinian terrorist.

Any countries policies pertaining to welfare should obviously and firstly go to it's citizens.

Oh yeah, forgot about that. In fact, doesn't the whole premise behind this article, that Israeli Arabs should have the right to bring in Palestinian Arab spouses, sort of assume that Arabs are really Palestinians instead of Israelis no matter their citizenship? Otherwise it would make no sense to grant someone public housing for their foreign spouse on the sensible grounds that public housing should go to citizens of our own country. The only reason to give an Arab couple composed of an Israeli Arab and a Palestinian Arab public-housing privileges is if Arabs are an entirely separate and non-Israeli nation somehow entitled to special privileges from the Israeli government. On what grounds, that they tried to kill the Jews and lost? But the Israeli Arabs made their peace with the Jews and became citizens of Israel!

Well look at that. Ha'aretz appears to think Arabs aren't really Israelis. Of course, that's OK because it's done in the context of demanding more rights/privileges for Arabs on the government teat.

If you want to know why they can't just make "A" a citizen of Israel... examine the implications of such a policy that allows such things. Palestinian Arabs would flood into Israel under the guise of marriage. Not only would the demographics get fucked up to the point of making Israel not a Jewish state anymore (essentially winning the Arab "right of return" through clandestine action), but terrorists would rather easily get into the country and start killing Evil Zionist Jews and our Dirty Collaborators the Israeli Arabs.

Now I'm going to go do something fun and let off the damn steam.



Wow dude.

I think you're conflating criticism of Israeli policy with criticism of the Israeli people. There certainly are racists who use criticism of Israel to mask their hatred of the Jewish people, but if you haven't read 'constructive criticism' then I'd suggest that you simply aren't looking, because its all over teh internez.

(Warning: Wall of text)
Spoiler:
Here's Tom Freedman offering criticism of the fact that we give your country, and no other, billions of dollars of aid annually with no strings whatsoever
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/08/opini ... ef=opinion

Gideon Levy saying the same thing
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1124928.html?

Here's Glenn Greenwald describing how your country manipulates the US into giving Israel billions in weapons every year

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/ ... index.html


And guess what: your country does commit war crimes in internationally recognized Palestinian territory. Last year, your army used white phosphorous in densely populated urban areas which burned and maimed thousands of civilians. And no, the evidence is not flimsy...one of the interesting things about giving your country its weapons is that we can trace shell codes back to the US arsenal that procured them (not that we need to, given the ample photographic evidence that exists despite your governments best efforts to prevent journalist access to the area).

Here's a linkdump going into further detail

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/ ... index.html
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/ ... index.html
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/ ... index.html

Here's Greenwald and Bill Moyers describe the extensive war crimes committed in last years offensive

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/ ... index.html

"According to the Report issued on Thursday (.pdf) by the U.N.'s Humanitarian Affairs Office, more than 1/3 of overall Palestinian deaths are children (34% of the almost 800 total deaths), and a similar percentage of the more than 3,000 wounded are also children (34.8%).

To put that in perspective, note that the Russian invasion of Georgia -- which was vehemently and universally condemned in the U.S. as an excessive and brutal response to Georgia's assault on South Ossetia -- resulted, according to the Georgian government, in total deaths on the Georgia side of 405 (220 of whom were civilians) and total number of civilians wounded between 200-250 (see page 10 of this Amnesty International Report -- .pdf). The Russians agreed to a cease-fire accord after 5 days; the Israelis explicitly reject the U.N.'s call for a cease fire and continue to "escalate" after 14 full days (and counting) of full-scale air and land attacks on Gaza.

Of course, all of that pales in comparision to the duration, destruction and carnage created by the U.S. as a result of the Iraq War (the most unprovoked of all of these conflicts). To say that the U.S. applies a glaring double standard to wars fought by its allies and its "enemies" (to say nothing of itself) is to understate the case."

Link to Bill's excellent segment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Efm9uAnUU00

And some excerpts from http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/ ... index.html

"One should be clear that this sociopathic indifference to (or even celebration over) the deaths of Palestinian civilians isn't representative of all supporters of the Israeli attack on Gaza. It's unfair to use the Goldfarb/Peretz pathology to impugn all supporters of the Israeli attack. It's certainly possible to support the Israeli offensive despite the deaths of these civilians, to truly lament the suffering of innocent Palestinians but still find the war, on balance, to be justifiable.

Those who favor the attack on Gaza due to that calculus are certainly misguided about the likely outcome. And many war supporters who fall into this more benign category are guilty of insufficiently weighing the deaths of Palestinian innocents and, relatedly, of such overwhelming emotional and cultural attachment to Israel and Israelis that they long ago ceased viewing this conflict with any remnant of objectivity.

I can't express how many emails I've received in the last week from people identifying themselves as "liberals" (and, overwhelmingly, American Jews); telling me that they agree with my views in almost all areas other than Israel; and then self-righteously insisting that I imagine what it's like to live in Southern Israel with incoming rocket fire from Hamas, as though that will change my views on the Israel/Gaza war. Obviously, it's not difficult to imagine the understandable rage that Israelis feel when learning of another attack on Israeli civilians, in exactly the way that American rage over the 9/11 attacks was understandable. But just as that American anger didn't justify anything and everything that followed, the fact that there are indefensible attacks on Israeli civilians doesn't render the (far more lethal) attacks on Gaza either wise or just -- as numerous Jewish residents of Sderot themselves are courageously arguing in opposing the Israeli attack.

More to the point: for those who insist that others put themselves in the position of a resident of Sderot -- as though that will, by itself, prove the justifiability of the Israeli attack -- the idea literally never occurs to them that they ought to imagine what it's like to live under foreign occupation for 4 decades (and, despite the 2005 "withdrawal from Gaza," Israel continues to occupy and expand its settlements on Palestinian land and to control and severely restrict many key aspects of Gazan life). No thought is given to what it is like, what emotions it generates, what horrible acts start to appear justifiable, when you have a hostile foreign army control your borders and airspace and internal affairs for 40 years, one which builds walls around you, imposes the most intensely humiliating conditions on your daily life, blockades your land so that you're barred from exiting and prevented from accessing basic nutrition and medical needs for your children to the point where a substantial portion of the underage population suffers from stunted growth.

So extreme is their emotional identification with one side (Israel) that it literally never occurs to them to give any thought to any of that, to imagine what it's like to live in those circumstances. Nor does this thought occur to them:

I was trained from an early age to view this group as my group, to identify with them emotionally, culturally, religiously. Maybe that -- and not an objective assessment of these events -- is why I continuously side with that group and see everything from its perspective and justify whatever it does, why I find the Dick Cheney/Weekly Standard/neoconservative worldview repellent in every situation except when it comes to Israel, when I suddenly find it wise and vigorously embrace it.

Those who defend American actions in every case, or who find justification in attacks on Israeli civilians, or who find simplistic moral clarity in a whole range of other complex and protracted disputes where all sides share infinite blame, are often guilty of the same refusal/inability to at least try to minimize this sort of ingrained tribalistic blindness.

* * * * *

Still, there is a substantial difference between, on the one hand, basically well-intentioned people who are guilty of excessive emotional and cultural identification with one side of the dispute and, on the other, those who adopt the Goldfarb/Peretz psychopathic derangement of belittling rage over widespread civilian deaths as mere "whining" or even something to view as a strategic asset. The latter group is a subset of war supporters and evinces every defining attribute of the Terrorist.

Those who giddily support not just civilian deaths in Gaza but every actual and proposed attack on Arab/Muslim countries -- from the war in Iraq to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon to the proposed attacks on Iran and Syria and even continued escalation in Afghanistan -- are able to do so because they don't really see the Muslims they want to kill as being fully human. For obvious reasons, one typically finds this full-scale version of sociopathic indifference -- this perception of brutal war as a blood-pumping and exciting instrument for feeling vicarious sensations of power and strength from a safe distance -- in the society's weakest, most frightened, and most insecure individuals.

Here's right-wing blogger (and law professor) Glenn Reynolds revealing that wretched mindset for all to see:

“Cycles of violence” continue until one side wins decisively. Personally, I’d rather that were the Israelis, since they’re civilized people and not barbarians.

Or, as Goldfarb put it: "it's not clear that they are rational, at least not like us."

If you see Palestinians as something less than civilized human beings: as "barbarians" -- just as if you see Americans as infidels warring with God or Jews as sub-human rats -- then it naturally follows that civilian deaths are irrelevant, perhaps even something to cheer. For people who think that way, arguments about "proportionality" won't even begin to resonate -- such concepts can't even be understood -- because the core premise, that excessive civilian deaths are horrible and should be avoided at all costs, isn't accepted. Why should a superior, civilized, peaceful society allow the welfare of violent, hateful barbarians to interfere with its objectives? How can the deaths or suffering of thousands of barbarians ever be weighed against the death of even a single civilized person?

So many of these conflicts -- one might say almost all of them -- end up shaped by the same virtually universal deficiency: excessive tribalistic identification (i.e.: the group with which I was trained to identify is right and good and just and my group's enemy is bad and wrong and violent), which causes people to view the world only from the perspective of their side, to believe that X is good when they do it and evil when it's done to them. X can be torture, or the killing of civilians in order to "send a message" (i.e., Terrorism), or invading and occupying other people's land, or using massive lethal force against defenseless populations, or seeing one's own side as composed of real humans and the other side as sub-human, evil barbarians. As George Orwell wrote in Notes on Nationalism -- with perfect prescience to today's endless conflicts (h/t Hume's Ghost):

All nationalists have the power of not seeing resemblances between similar sets of facts. A British Tory will defend self-determination in Europe and oppose it in India with no feeling of inconsistency. Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits, but according to who does them, and there is almost no kind of outrage — torture, the use of hostages, forced labour, mass deportations, imprisonment without trial, forgery, assassination, the bombing of civilians — which does not change its moral colour when it is committed by ‘our’ side ... The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them

For those who evaluate moral questions from that blindingly self-regarding perspective, anything and everything becomes easily justifiable."

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby doogly » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:00 pm UTC

OK, let's take Japan. I have level one harshness of opinion at them for how they deal with immigrants. i do! I have level two harshness for their suppression of Ainu and Okinowan identity, as they lived in the areas Japan now claims mandate over. But fortunately Japan has been doing a lot better in these regards. Israel, not so much. And if you think Filipino and Thai guest workers have the same claim to Israel as the Palestinians, that is pretty wacky.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:02 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Ladies and gentlemen, please do not panic. We are currently experiencing heavy turbulence. You will find your official fire-retardant suits beneath your chairs. In the event of a server crash, wi-fi enabled oxygen masks will fall in front of your desks; if you have brought small children with you to the forums, please remember to don your own mask before putting on theirs.

This coming flame-war has been brought to you by the letters I, E, and the state of Israel. Thank you for your patronage, and please try not to die too horribly.

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby Random832 » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:06 pm UTC

doogly wrote:And if you think Filipino and Thai guest workers have the same claim to Israel as the Palestinians, that is pretty wacky.


Actually, unless he can provide an example of a citizen being denied public housing (not for the couple, just for herself) for marrying one of them, it sounds like he thinks they have a better claim.

Which makes sense, you know, if you view Arabs as "the enemy".

But, then, if you really read everything he's saying, who he really thinks public housing should be denied to is her children. Because they are the instruments an evil trrrrrist plot to peacefully increase voting representation. Better that they die in the streets; less Arabs to reach voting age that way.
Last edited by Random832 on Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:11 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby netcrusher88 » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:08 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:
The policy of maintaining a Jewish state needs improvement, dudes.

Jewish state? It's gotta go! And that's just political criticism, remember? Never mind that nobody has ever seriously suggested the abolition of all the other ethnonational states. Jewish self-determination is just that evil.

No, it's just that the US isn't generally in the business of establishing and backing to the point of dogmatism ethnonational - or, since Israel seems to make no distinction between ethnicity and religion (and I'm not saying that's unique to Israel), religious - states. We tend to be quite adamant about separation of church and state, in fact. The reason Israel winds up taking a lot of shit on this board for it, I expect, is because of the US's dogmatic backing of Israel.

All your crap about keeping your culture pure or whatever is nothing but racism under the guise of tradition and religion, which has no place in government - I don't care if you're talking about Israel, Palestine, Rwanda or Darfur. Yeah, I went there - the logical end result of an "ethnonational state" is genocide (see also: "ethnic cleansing"), because how else are you going to ensure the state is all one ethnicity?

There's also the possibility of a race-based caste system, but those are rather more difficult to set up when individuals already consider themselves on equal footing.

Anyway, most of the discussion going on in this thread is completely irrelevant to the article. Let's get a few things straight: the woman in question is applying for housing for herself and their children, not for her spouse. This is because her spouse does not live in Israel, and is allowed to visit for only four days every two months (talk about dedication) - anyway, since he wouldn't be living there let's set aside all the crap about giving public housing to non-citizens because that's quite clearly not going on here. Oh, and the talk about how she's an Israeli Arab and therefore that makes it different because she's Arab and wants to bring in her Arab husband - let's stop that shit right here because that is outright racism. She's an Israeli citizen, what the fuck do you or anyone have the right to care about her ethnicity.
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Re: Israeli public housing? Not if your partner is Palestinian

Postby tzvibish » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:10 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
Spoiler:
Ladies and gentlemen, please do not panic. We are currently experiencing heavy turbulence. You will find your official fire-retardant suits beneath your chairs. In the event of a server crash, wi-fi enabled oxygen masks will fall in front of your desks; if you have brought small children with you to the forums, please remember to don your own mask before putting on theirs.

This coming flame-war has been brought to you by the letters I, E, and the state of Israel. Thank you for your patronage, and please try not to die too horribly.


quoted for win.
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