Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

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Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby sophyturtle » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:33 pm UTC

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/27/california.gang.rape.investigation/index.html

This is a horrifying thing. I just stopped crying about it. It is the gang rape of a 15 year old with multiple spectators who did nothing besides get other spectators. She was left in critical condition. I do not even know what discussion of this will happen, but it is too much to be ignored.

This is something we need to recognize happened in our society. Otherwise we will not be able to stop it from happening again.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Jessica » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:34 pm UTC

I can't read the article. I read enough from blogs about it. I can't open the link because it just makes me angry.

but yeah. That's sick.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Moo » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:36 pm UTC

Unable to really think of any words on the topic, I still felt the need to register my voice against this type of action, in sympathy for the victim and in disgust in some human beings too.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Sockmonkey » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:38 pm UTC

Yeah, what Moo said.

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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Omegaton » Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:54 pm UTC

Ugh, this has darkened my day. My sympathies. :(

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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Monika » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:04 pm UTC

Police quote:
-- "We do not have the ability to arrest people who witnessed the crime and did nothing," Gagan said. "The law can be very rigid. We don't have the authority to make an arrest."

WTH?! Are there no "non-assistance of a person in danger" laws in the US?

The bystanders should certainly be punished, too. And I hope they find all the rapists and send them to jail for a long time.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby sophyturtle » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:10 pm UTC

They sometimes have good Samaritan laws, but no, they cannot arrest people who watched. The punishment for them has to be taken into other hands (parents, etc.) and will likely not be nearly harsh enough in my eyes.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Heisenberg » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:13 pm UTC

Monika wrote:WTH?! Are there no "non-assistance of a person in danger" laws in the US?
I believe it varies state to state. The article says that if the victim were 14, the bystanders would be in violation of the law for not reporting. These people are horrible human beings, but perhaps the lack of criminal charges will help them come forward and identify the assailants.

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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby psyck0 » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:23 pm UTC

Heisenberg's got it. The reason you don't want to arrest bystanders is that said bystanders would never report crimes if they could be criminally liable for it. This is just a particularly overt and disgusting crime, but laws have to be black and white- no exceptions possible. Exceptions lead to abuses.

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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby GraphiteGirl » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:42 pm UTC

sophyturtle wrote:They sometimes have good Samaritan laws, but no, they cannot arrest people who watched. The punishment for them has to be taken into other hands (parents, etc.) and will likely not be nearly harsh enough in my eyes.

This is why I'm glad that Australia has the kind of aiding and abetting laws where they probably could be charged and convicted, because standing and watching a rape take place in the way these kids are described as doing can be construed as encouraging the rapists and possibly as guarding them/keeping watch/keeping them safer in numbers.
Also, the title of this thread is just... yeah. Accurate. *cries*
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Brooklynxman » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:44 pm UTC

I am disgusted on every level I thought possible and a few new ones that involve me wanting to hit things.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Kain » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:54 pm UTC

I still can't comprehend how the security (and there had to be security there) missed the whole dozens of people walking into a back ally thing. I wonder if the school didn't hire enough security, thinking there wouldn't be any issues, or if the security guards were only doing the minimum required of them.

I sincerely hope the victim is able to recover from this. The article stated that she is in stable condition now, which is a good sign of her physical health, but I am worried about the mental scarring she is undoubtably going to have.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Paranoid__Android » Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:00 pm UTC

That's pretty messed up.
Some people have no morals.

Also the article makes it sound like the other 10 people just stood around and watched for whatever reason. I find that hard to comprehend and I'm hoping that it's not the case for the sake of my view of humanity.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Teapot » Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:01 pm UTC

I read this last night and I still don't have the words for how upset and angry and ill this makes me. I can't even begin to imagine how horrible it must be for the girl and the other girls in her school who are in classes with the people who did this.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Lucrece » Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:02 pm UTC

I remember watching a documentary on immigration through the Mexican border, especially the passage of lone children, and how one 9 year old boy recounted how he sneaked into a train and could watch a 40+ year old mother and her daughter being gang-raped by 15+ men, and how this is actually common for women attempting to cross the borders.

When you put rape under the context where women have to be protected from it by their men, you're creating a situation where some men will have no problem partaking in rape with the reasoning that the woman's male member had the duty to keep the woman off this fate. Thus, nobody intervenes because the woman is treated like property that ought to be protected by the owner; and in a situation where there is no owner, it's a free for all.

I expect this to continue to happen so long as sex segregation keeps happening and a sense of separation stays enforced. You can never keep people operating and fraternizing separately without expecting each faction to see the other as fundamentally different, which always leads to a value judgement and inability to have empathy.

And, yeah, the more people present, the less they are likely to intervene. Some even treat it as entertainment. Back in my days in Venezuela, I recall at the young age of 12 witnessing two female street sellers having a territory fight; one pulled a knife, the other a broken bottle, and it ended up with one woman bashing the other woman's head into the ground, all bloodied. I was appalled that nobody would intervene, and that my father's friend (who was escorting me to buy some stuff) just pulled me away so I couldn't watch. The other people were just chanting "Dale, dale!" (translation :" Get her, get her!").

We like to think we've evolved, but we're the same we were for centuries, if not millenniums ago. Only need to go back to our very recent history with a trip to the Colosseum to remind ourselves of human nature.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Spacemilk » Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:06 pm UTC

I heard about this on the radio yesterday morning. The show hosts were almost speechless with disgust and shock; one of the radio hosts had to stop reading the story because she was so angry and upset - her cohost had to take over.

Then the victim-blaming calls started coming in. I almost wish the show hosts hadn't aired the calls, but they did such a good job of defeating the opposition of those assholes, I'm overall glad they did. But still, to hear people say bullshit like, "Well, what was she wearing? It's her own fault if she's dressed slutty." or "Was she drinking? It's her own fault if she let herself get drunk."

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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Red Hal » Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:11 pm UTC

I am a strong opponent of the death penalty, but there are times when that opposition is sorely tested. This is one of those times. The people who did this, the people who watched and did nothing, the people who encouraged them, do not deserve the appellation of "human".
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby podbaydoor » Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:38 pm UTC

Spacemilk wrote:Then the victim-blaming calls started coming in. I almost wish the show hosts hadn't aired the calls, but they did such a good job of defeating the opposition of those assholes, I'm overall glad they did. But still, to hear people say bullshit like, "Well, what was she wearing? It's her own fault if she's dressed slutty." or "Was she drinking? It's her own fault if she let herself get drunk."

There is NOTHING in that news story that says anything about what she was doing or what they were doing except the naked, bald facts: they raped her and people watched.

The mindset that immediately jumps to absolving the rapists of blame - looking for EXCUSES for the rapists - is just...I don't understand. I don't understand. It's RAPE. They are RAPISTS. Why is the immediate instinct to be defensive? Why is the gut reaction to look for anything to explain it away as not-rape? Why?
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Heisenberg » Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:53 pm UTC

Personally, I'd like to think that there were extenuating circumstances. Not to blame the victim, or to pardon the rapists, but in hopes that some of the witnesses didn't know what they were seeing. If the victim were semi-conscious, perhaps witnesses took that to mean she consented. Although I could be constructing this scenario simply because I find it horrible that people would look on while she was crying for help.

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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Teapot » Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:53 pm UTC

@podbaydoor - There was a comment on shakesville that explained the victim blaming quite well. I'll see if I can find it.

Here it is, spoilered for long and possible triggers:
Spoiler:
QLH wrote:They have to blame her. Because it has to have been something about her, something she did. Otherwise, it could've been anyone, anyone else, any other girl at that dance. Otherwise, it's not just her, just this one girl who did/said/drank the wrong thing. Otherwise, it's the boys, that many of them, and it's their families, their school environment, society, etc.

It's easier, to pin it on her. Then she's the aberration, she's the problem, that one girl who did that one thing that one time. And they can shame her, and they can move on.

But when you realize that it's not her, that they could've raped anyone, any other girl at that dance... When you're sitting in class with those guys and you know what they did and everyone's talking about it and his locker's right beside yours and what if...

Either your math class, your homecoming dance, your high school, your town, your WORLD are full of hateful, violent, horrifying people in the guise of, literally, the boy next door.

Or the world's fine, and that one girl shouldn't have gotten drunk and been so stupid.

It's easier that way.

As long as you're never that girl.

Except, eventually? We're all that girl. Or our sisters and friends and daughters are.

Ugh, shutting up now.
And whilst I can understand that thinking I still think it's a horrible, awful way to think.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Nordic Einar » Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:53 pm UTC

podbaydoor wrote:
Spacemilk wrote:Then the victim-blaming calls started coming in. I almost wish the show hosts hadn't aired the calls, but they did such a good job of defeating the opposition of those assholes, I'm overall glad they did. But still, to hear people say bullshit like, "Well, what was she wearing? It's her own fault if she's dressed slutty." or "Was she drinking? It's her own fault if she let herself get drunk."

There is NOTHING in that news story that says anything about what she was doing or what they were doing except the naked, bald facts: they raped her and people watched.

The mindset that immediately jumps to absolving the rapists of blame - looking for EXCUSES for the rapists - is just...I don't understand. I don't understand. It's RAPE. They are RAPISTS. Why is the immediate instinct to be defensive? Why is the gut reaction to look for anything to explain it away as not-rape? Why?


I experienced this first hand after coming back from the NEM. I run a local GSA at my campus, and just before leaving we were forced to ask one of our members not to come back. He had a history of sexual harassment and assault that everyone despised. He made many of our members (particularily the women) feel uncomfortable, and several times had been reported to campus police for it. (Not that they did anything). So we kicked him out.

Lo and behold, when I get back some close friends of mine are furious with me. Friends of the women he'd ASSAULTED began to downplay what he did and pretended like it wasn't a big deal. Friends of his victims proceeded to tell them they were overreacting. I just don't understand how that is possible...

There isn't really much I can say about the article besides the fact that I am filled with a great feeling of hopelessness that not ONE person said anything. Or left to call the police. Anything. I don't know how to even begin to counter that callousness...

**EDIT**

Was just watching a report on this on CNN, and while I can't recall the anchor's name she very stringently denounced those who would partake in victim blaming, and was supported in earnest by the local school board officials and the police Lt. investigating this case.

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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby rat4000 » Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:19 pm UTC

Okay, people killing themselves on video while others watch, people killing themselves while others watch IRL (I think there was such a case somewhere) and then this.

There is something very, very, very wrong with humanity.

I... really don't have anything else to say. I can't even properly think about it.

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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Mactabilis » Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:41 pm UTC

No the reason why people victim blame is because they want to say this could have been avoided, or more importantly I would have avoided this. I wouldn't have gotten drunk in the court yard and instead went straight home, I wouldn't dress so provocatively I wouldn't fall into the trap she did. If they admit to themselves that no matter what you do, how you dress how you act or who you drive home with there is still a chance VERY bad things can happen to you, well its an incredibly scary and helpless and hopeless feeling that comes over you when you realize this.

Then of course there are the she had it coming folks, who i cant explain. why anyone would think someone opens themselves up to deserve to be raped or murdered or robbed or whatever is beyond me. Most likely to excuse actions they themselves would commit if given the opportunity. people don't like to feel like they are bad, so if its something they too would do, they need to make it ok.

Things like this make me think we as homo sapiens are a mixed breed of homo sapiens and Neanderthal and some people are less evolved than others. I can say without doubt I'm not capable of rape and i feel like it has more to do with my nature than my nurture. I mean could my upbringing really be the only difference?

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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Chen » Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:36 pm UTC

Mactabilis wrote:Things like this make me think we as homo sapiens are a mixed breed of homo sapiens and Neanderthal and some people are less evolved than others. I can say without doubt I'm not capable of rape and i feel like it has more to do with my nature than my nurture. I mean could my upbringing really be the only difference?


Upbringing, who you hung out with and their upbringing, media influences, societal perception of women etc. All these could be factors that may make someone more prone to rape than not. I'm extremely sceptical that there's some "rapist gene" out there. Rape I'd be almost certain is an issue of nurture (or perhaps lack thereof) and not nature.

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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby GoC » Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:38 pm UTC

Meh. It's one person in a world of 6 billion. I'm not going to give it a second thought.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby sophyturtle » Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:40 pm UTC

If this were the only time in history that something like this happened, I would be less worried.
But you can feel free to ignore the suffering of others if it makes you more comfortable.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby GoC » Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:45 pm UTC

sophyturtle wrote:But you can feel free to ignore the suffering of others if it makes you more comfortable.

Everyone else does. As long as you bluster about it and don't mention it in polite conversation everyone is ok with ignoring the dirty little secret that noone gives a shit.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby rat4000 » Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:52 pm UTC

You know the best counter to misanthropy?

Someone gives a shit.

You know why it's good? Because it's true.

I mean sure, some people don't give a shit. Hence the thread's title. Some do. Hence the thread's replies.

edited due to having reconsidered something
Last edited by rat4000 on Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:20 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Heisenberg » Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:59 pm UTC

First, it wasn't just one person, it was 20. Second, the vast majority of people give a shit. That's why they play it on CNN. Because people are shocked and horrified that this sort of thing is even possible.

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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby crowey » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:11 pm UTC

GoC wrote:
sophyturtle wrote:But you can feel free to ignore the suffering of others if it makes you more comfortable.

Everyone else does. As long as you bluster about it and don't mention it in polite conversation everyone is ok with ignoring the dirty little secret that noone gives a shit.

They don't, lots of people give a shit. You are a horrible person, don't try to tar the rest of humanity with your shitty personality.

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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Decker » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:26 pm UTC

GoC wrote:Meh. It's one person in a world of 6 billion. I'm not going to give it a second thought.

News flash. So are you. Try to keep this in mind next time you think something horrible is going to happen to you.

Edit: Perhaps I should clarify. Everyone is one person in a world of 6 billion. I am. You are. Your mother is. Most of these people have friends, family, and aquaintences that love them or do care about them very deepy. Saying that this one person in six billion dosn't matter just because you don't know them personally is, and I'm being INCREDIBLY generous with you here, selfish and ignorent.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Belial » Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:49 pm UTC

To say nothing about how this speaks about larger social phenomena, ie, that we live in a world where this sort of thing can and does happen. That whole "rape culture" thing. But, y'know, your callousness and apathy makes you ever so cool to some self-conscious 14-year-olds, I'm sure. Keep up the good work.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby mmmcannibalism » Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:53 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:First, it wasn't just one person, it was 20. Second, the vast majority of people give a shit. That's why they play it on CNN. Because people are shocked and horrified that this sort of thing is even possible.


They play it on CNN(or any other network) because it gets ratings, everyone loves to act like a good person and criticize this at a distance.

GoC wrote:Meh. It's one person in a world of 6 billion. I'm not going to give it a second thought.


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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:21 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:Personally, I'd like to think that there were extenuating circumstances. Not to blame the victim, or to pardon the rapists, but in hopes that some of the witnesses didn't know what they were seeing. If the victim were semi-conscious, perhaps witnesses took that to mean she consented. Although I could be constructing this scenario simply because I find it horrible that people would look on while she was crying for help.

Kinda like what sophy said... if this was the only time that people looked on while someone was crying for help, I might like to think so as well. But I can't because that's just not reality.
People were taking pictures and going to get other people to rape her. They knew damn well what they were looking at. Like it was some kind of an event. A spectator sport.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Vieto » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:40 pm UTC

GoC wrote:Meh. It's one person in a world of 6 billion. I'm not going to give it a second thought.


According to the wikipedia, in 2002 alone 33/100,000 people got raped in the US alone, or 1 out of every 3030 people. Quite a big difference from 1 in 6 billion.

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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby The Reaper » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:45 pm UTC

I like to think these people would have been killed very hard and violently if this occurred in Texas. >:\

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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Bulvox » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:53 pm UTC

Vieto wrote:
GoC wrote:Meh. It's one person in a world of 6 billion. I'm not going to give it a second thought.


According to the wikipedia, in 2002 alone 33/100,000 people got raped in the US alone, or 1 out of every 3030 people. Quite a big difference from 1 in 6 billion.
And that's just in the US. Think about what the numbers for other countries have to be. Excuse me while I go be sick.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:26 pm UTC

Meaux_Pas wrote:People were taking pictures and going to get other people to rape her. They knew damn well what they were looking at. Like it was some kind of an event. A spectator sport.

Oh, now I get SecondTalon's basketball metaphor.
LE4dGOLEM wrote:your ability to tell things from things remains one of your skills.
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joshz
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby joshz » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:32 pm UTC

The Reaper wrote:I like to think these people would have been killed very hard and violently if this occurred in Texas. >:\
Even though these people are scum, mob justice--it's, uh, actually not a good thing?
You, sir, name? wrote:If you have over 26 levels of nesting, you've got bigger problems ... than variable naming.
suffer-cait wrote:it might also be interesting to note here that i don't like 5 fingers. they feel too bulky.

The Reaper
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby The Reaper » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:36 pm UTC

joshz wrote:
The Reaper wrote:I like to think these people would have been killed very hard and violently if this occurred in Texas. >:\
Even though these people are scum, mob justice--it's, uh, actually not a good thing?

I think it would fall under vigilante justice, rather than mob justice.


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