Trigger:Sometimes you fail me modern art....

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Freakish
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Re: Trigger:Sometimes you fail me modern art....

Postby Freakish » Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:19 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
Freakish wrote:It's pretty bad when you actually have to rewrite your opponent's argument before you twist their words.
I like to rephrase what people are saying so they can understand why what they're saying is wrong. Exactly how do you think I'm misinterpreting their claim?
Freakish wrote:We're still on the subject of rape role playing right?
And how the assumptions we make there affect rape-claims at large. If it's not rape when someone withdraws their consent during fantasy play - and can't express that withdrawing of consent - then there are a lot of other situations where it's not rape. Also, if the intent of a rapist has a direct impact on how bad a rape victim feels after a rape (or whether or not it even qualifies as a rape), I'm sure there are plenty of rape victims (well, if the intent matters, maybe they don't 'qualify' as rape victims anymore) who need to be told that their experiences are no where near as traumatic as they think they are.

Do I need to draw you a diagram, here?


In my mind you don't just hold consent, you actively agree with your partner that for the next 30 minutes you're gonna play the rape victim, and anything you might say or do is part of the role playing and should be treated as such. If you want a safe word your can have a safe word, but it's your choice.
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The Great Hippo
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Re: Trigger:Sometimes you fail me modern art....

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:35 pm UTC

Freakish wrote:In my mind you don't just hold consent, you actively agree with your partner that for the next 30 minutes you're gonna play the rape victim, and anything you might say or do is part of the role playing and should be treated as such. If you want a safe word your can have a safe word, but it's your choice.
Yes, and I'm not disagreeing with that. At all. What I'm saying is: If suddenly you do not consent mid-play, yes, you are being raped. We can say that this was a risk you both agreed to when you engaged in that play - we can say that, in a relationship based on trust and intimacy, you'll both be able to minimize this risk to such a degree that it will be nearly non-existent - we can even say that it's hard for us to figure out if there's anyone to blame in a situation like this.

But we cannot say that you're no longer capable of being raped. If I can't suddenly go "oh shit, no, wait, I've changed my mind, THIS IS NOT WHAT I WANTED!" in that sort of situation - if we say that expressing this sentiment is meaningless - we've compromised my ability to consent in any situation, regardless of the circumstances. I can somehow 'sign away' my ability to consent; if I agree to something and suddenly lose my ability to communicate, what I want no longer matters, and if I'm violated during that period, I'm being silly if I express, afterward, how I felt violated ("silly! you weren't raped! only people waving red flags while screaming NO through an electrified bullhorn and lighting their rapists on fire with their minds are rape victims! And only if they didn't sign a contract that says that none of that matters!"). Basically, it's magically not-rape if I can't communicate to you that I am being raped (and I consented some time prior).

And that. Is. BULLSHIT.

Do you understand what I'm saying, here? Sexy play-times are go, but if you're in a situation where rape is a risk, and that risk ends up happening, you do not get to go "Oh, no, but that isn't REAL rape, because you said it was okay when we started". No. Bullshit. Bad dog. Newspaper to the nose! Etc.

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Re: Trigger:Sometimes you fail me modern art....

Postby Diadem » Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:04 pm UTC

So, basically, being unable to find any argument why such an activity would be a bad thing, you insist on calling it rape so as to obfuscate the issue and make it look like a bad thing. And then you call me a rape apologist, while you're the one who insists on labelling perfectly acceptable activities as rape, thereby devaluating the word.

Anyway, you can argue semantics all you want. I'm not terribly interested in that. What matters is that sexual roleplaying is not immoral, and you admitted that:
The Great Hippo wrote:I don't care if it's immoral or not. What you want to do behind closed doors is your business, and so long as everyone consents, I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong. Go ahead, do it.


I find it curious though that you do not care if an activity is immoral or not. You put rules, nay, definitions of words, above morality? What kind of weird priority is that? In your defence though you seem somewhat confused about this yourself as well. Because later on in the same post you say:
The Great Hipplo wrote:Basically, I can't see any way to work around you being a jerk here.

So it's not immoral, but if you do it you're jerk. In what universe does that make sense?

Also. Flat out denying the existence of psychology? LOL.
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Re: Trigger:Sometimes you fail me modern art....

Postby Aikanaro » Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:19 pm UTC

Erm, I believe what Hippo is saying is that you have the right, and you can make arguments that you are not, either morally or in a court of law, a rapist, BUT, that does not automatically mean that, by definition, your partner is incapable of suddenly deciding that they DON'T want this after all, and end up being traumatized by the incident.

(That said, it doesn't mean that, by definition, they WILL be traumatized, etc.. Basically just either emotional result is entirely possible.)
EDIT: Spoilered for possible TMI:
Spoiler:
For the record, by the definition Hippo has provided, I suppose in a very loose sense, you could say I was raped....for a very, very brief period. But it wasn't emotionally scarring at all, and I think that to label me a "rape victim" is demeaning to people who actually HAVE been assaulted/traumatized/etc., of which I know there are many on these fora.
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Re: Trigger:Sometimes you fail me modern art....

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:39 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:So, basically, being unable to find any argument why such an activity would be a bad thing, you insist on calling it rape so as to obfuscate the issue and make it look like a bad thing. And then you call me a rape apologist, while you're the one who insists on labelling perfectly acceptable activities as rape, thereby devaluating the word.
I'm pointing out that your insistence that rape is impossible under these circumstances is a denial of the fact that rape has happened under similar circumstances, and it can be incredibly traumatic for those who were victimized as such. I'm also pointing out that you're insistently telling rape victims under what circumstances they have a right to feel traumatized ("if your partner didn't intend it, it shouldn't be as traumatic" - what? Why? Why should a rape victim feel less raped just because you didn't intend to rape them?).
Diadem wrote:I find it curious though that you do not care if an activity is immoral or not. You put rules, nay, definitions of words, above morality? What kind of weird priority is that? In your defence though you seem somewhat confused about this yourself as well. Because later on in the same post you say:
The Great Hipplo wrote:Basically, I can't see any way to work around you being a jerk here.
So it's not immoral, but if you do it you're jerk. In what universe does that make sense?
Because what you're saying is very jerkish, not what you're doing. You're explaining that you're engaging in consensual relationships with other people where (we'll assume) everyone is aware of the risks and there is a level of trust and maturity which allows you to minimize the risk of trauma, of rape, of pain and of anguish. I don't parse that as immoral, and again, if everyone understands and consents, I really don't care anyway. But when you go ahead and say "Now, if something terrible does happen - if someone involved suddenly isn't consenting, and can't express that consent - oh, that's not rape. And if they feel traumatized by it, well, because of some pop psychology course I once took, I am in a position to determine that their trauma is irrelevant and silly, because obviously it's less of a deal if I didn't intend to rape them."
Diadem wrote:Also. Flat out denying the existence of psychology? ¡This cheese is burning me!.
Do you have a degree in psychology? Have you received formal training on rape counseling? Do you have a license to provide therapy for those who have suffered through sexual abuse? Have you yourself been sexually abused?

If the answer to all of these questions is 'no', then you need to shut up and stop telling rape victims 1) How they're supposed to view their rape, 2) Under what circumstances they cease being rape victims, and 3) Exactly what part of rape is the most traumatizing for them. Because, HEY, GUESS WHAT: You don't have one fucking clue.

Don't feel too bad. Neither do I. But I'm not the one creating hierarchies of rape.

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Re: Trigger:Sometimes you fail me modern art....

Postby luketheduke » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:47 pm UTC

Any statement about the traumatization occurring in a situation where the only known characteristic about the most important factor - the person suffering the trauma - is that she is female, can only be of statistical value.

Defining rape by the statistical likeliness of trauma of arbitrarily defined intensity is an idiotic idea, because it has nothing to do with the actual situations that happened.
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Re: Trigger:Sometimes you fail me modern art....

Postby Internetmeme » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:18 pm UTC

luketheduke wrote:Any statement about the traumatization occurring in a situation where the only known characteristic about the most important factor - the person suffering the trauma - is that she is female, can only be of statistical value.

Defining rape by the statistical likeliness of trauma of arbitrarily defined intensity is an idiotic idea, because it has nothing to do with the actual situations that happened.

Sounds very bombastic.
So basically:
You are saying that anything said about trauma where the only thing known about the victim (the most important factor) is that she is a woman is only valuable for statistics?
And that defining rape by the likelihood of trauma of arbitrarily defined intensity is an idiotic idea because it has nothing to do with the actual thing that happened?

I somehow sense something wrong.
Spoiler:

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Re: Trigger:Sometimes you fail me modern art....

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:22 pm UTC

Well you randomly picked some words and emphasized them under the mistaken belief that this would make some kind of a point. That's something I sense that's wrong.

But I doubt it's what you were talking about.

So... what were you talking about?
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Re: Trigger:Sometimes you fail me modern art....

Postby Internetmeme » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:34 pm UTC

I'm saying this:

Something is very wrong with the idea that just because a woman is raped, that her gender is only useful in statistics. What group is the victim most often, Men or women? Which group is the raper more often? Men or women?

Also, he suggested that defining rape based on trauma from intensity is an idiotic idea, because it has nothing to do with the event, which is a general bad idea. I just don't agree that there is no correlation with the intensity of the event and the event itself. For one, when did someone suggest that we should define rape based on intensity? That is an entirely unrelated concept!


His post was just hard to sift through, and I hope that I got the message he was trying to convey.


EDIT: Ah, never mind. I get what you're saying now, luke. Thanks for clarifying.
Last edited by Internetmeme on Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:53 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trigger:Sometimes you fail me modern art....

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:43 pm UTC

Internetmeme wrote:I hope that I got the message he was trying to convey.

You didn't.

"The most important factor", in luke's post, was "the person suffering the trauma". He's saying that when the only thing you know about the traumatized person is that she's a woman, then statements about said trauma are too devoid of any other information to be useful for anything other than statistics.
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Re: Trigger:Sometimes you fail me modern art....

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:51 pm UTC

Internetmeme wrote:Something is very wrong with the idea that just because a woman is raped, that her gender is only useful in statistics. What group is the victim most often, Men or women? Which group is the raper more often? Men or women?
I'm not familiar with the numbers, but I'd guess that it's honestly hard to say. Prison rape in male-only prisons, for instance, is apparently quite prevalent (I'm sure women-only prisons face similar incidents, but I don't know which is more statistically pervasive). Boys are regularly molested and raped (as are girls; again, I don't know how comparable the statistics are). Besides, I don't think a discussion talking about which rape is statistically worse - the rape men face or the rape women face - is a positive direction to go in. I think that neutering language when discussing rape is probably a good idea. Of course, as I've pointed out, I'm no expert on this sort of thing.

Edit: To clarify, what I'm saying is that I agree with (as much as I understand) luketheduke's point that the sex of a rape victim is immaterial; only the fact that they've been raped is important. To say otherwise seems to imply that rapes that happen to one sex are more important or troubling than rapes that happen to another.

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Re: Trigger:Sometimes you fail me modern art....

Postby luketheduke » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:05 pm UTC

I am sorry about the confusion.
To clarify -

I am arguing against Diadem's standpoint.

We can make statistical statements about the trauma that is likely to occur in certain situations. We can not make accurate statements about the trauma that occurred in a certain situation - in a single occurence of sexual intercourse - if we only have the information Diadem is going off of.

If we want to define rape from the trauma that occurred, we can just ask the victim if she (or he) was raped. If you don't want to believe the victims, make it psychological assessment instead of plain asking.

Also:
WP: Rape: Statistics wrote:U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (1999) estimated that 91% of rape victims are female and 9% are male, with 99% of the offenders being male.
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Re: Trigger:Sometimes you fail me modern art....

Postby MrGee » Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:39 am UTC

Imma let you finish, but...wait, no, no I won't. -H


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