Oh, THAT Secret Nuclear Facility

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Re: Oh, THAT Secret Nuclear Facility

Postby EMTP » Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:40 pm UTC

tzvibish wrote:Just remember that this happened once before, in 1983, in Iraq (I think I've mentioned it once already). No escalation happened. This is in a lot of ways, similar.


As many people have pointed out, Iran's nuclear program is far more dispersed and hardened than Iraq's was. Iran is much larger than Iraq, physically and in terms of population, as well as farther away. Iran has weapons which can strike back directly, which Iraq did not. Neither Hezbollah nor Hamas even existed in 1983, and while I think Iran's degree of influence over these organizations is often exaggerated, they could certainly increase their support for them.

Maybe the best argument against predicting an Israeli strike is that it hasn't happened yet. I've lost count of the number of times one was said to be imminent.

Intrade puts the chance of an attack before the end of this year at 7.5%. So I would certainly not think America can go forward with the assumption that Israel will inevitably strike. It's in Israel's interests to make it seem as if this were so: American airstrikes or even just broader sanctions weakens a regional rival of Israel's without their actually having to do anything or risk anything.

yoni45 wrote: That's also part of the reason we'd like to keep them from getting nukes, as it will make hostile action from their side much harder to deter.


This claim is similar to the "freedom of action" claim cited above. Recent Israeli efforts at "deterrence" have been described by the former chief prosecutor in the Rwandan trials as "actions amounting to war crimes and possibly, in some respects, crimes against humanity." This is the sort of deterrence that should itself be deterred.
Last edited by EMTP on Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:59 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Oh, THAT Secret Nuclear Facility

Postby Philwelch » Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:27 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:The situation is reminscient of the period before the six-day war, when the leadership knew the Arab armies were arrayed in defensive positions and posed no threat, whilst doing their best to convince their population and the rest of the world a second Holocaust loomed.


You are a revisionist of history.
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Re: Oh, THAT Secret Nuclear Facility

Postby EMTP » Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:07 am UTC

Philwelch wrote:You are a revisionist of history.


As accusations go, I suppose it's an improvement on your comparing me to a Nazi. It's no less inaccurate, however.

Historians both Zionist and normal have noted that neither Egypt nor Syria were arrayed for offensive war, that the IDF leadership knew this, that they had every confidence they would win the war easily. The pressure to launch the massive surprise attack by which Israel started the war came from Israeli military and political leaders who warned that diplomatic compromise, pursued aggressively by Egypt in promising to submit all outstanding issues between the two sides to binding arbitration, threatened to remove the pretext for the war Israel's generals wanted.
Last edited by EMTP on Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:15 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Oh, THAT Secret Nuclear Facility

Postby BlackSails » Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:13 am UTC

EMTP wrote:
Philwelch wrote:You are a revisionist of history.


As accusations go, I suppose it's an improvement on your comparing me to a Nazi. It's no less inaccurate, however.

Historians both Zionist and normal have noted that neither Egypt nor Syria were arrayed for war, that the IDF leadership knew this, that they had every confidence they would win the war easily. The pressure to launch the massive surprise attack by which Israel started the war came from Israeli military and political leaders who warned that diplomatic compromise, pursued aggressively by Egypt in promising to submit all outstanding issues between the two sides to binding arbitration, threatened to remove the pretext for the war Israel's generals wanted.


Sure. And I bet that Germany's arms buildup in the 30s was just for defense, right?

(Protip: There was already an existing state of war going back to 1948 anyway. Even if the arab armies were not preparing for war [which they were], if they wanted peace, maybe they should have signed a peace treaty)

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Re: Oh, THAT Secret Nuclear Facility

Postby EMTP » Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:16 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:Sure. And I bet that Germany's arms buildup in the 30s was just for defense, right?


My, my, Mr Godwin is busy this week. You FAIL.
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Re: Oh, THAT Secret Nuclear Facility

Postby BlackSails » Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:18 am UTC

EMTP wrote:
BlackSails wrote:Sure. And I bet that Germany's arms buildup in the 30s was just for defense, right?


My, my, Mr Godwin is busy this week. You FAIL.


By all means, retreat to internet memes in the defense of your revisionism.

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Re: Oh, THAT Secret Nuclear Facility

Postby The Reaper » Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:28 am UTC

EMTP wrote:
BlackSails wrote:Sure. And I bet that Germany's arms buildup in the 30s was just for defense, right?


My, my, Mr Godwin is busy this week. You FAIL.

Wiki wrote:Godwin's Law is often cited in online discussions as a deterrent against the use of arguments in the widespread reductio ad Hitlerum form. The rule does not make any statement about whether any particular reference or comparison to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that the likelihood of such a reference or comparison arising increases as the discussion progresses. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued,[4] that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.
I do believe this is a valid comparison.

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Re: Oh, THAT Secret Nuclear Facility

Postby EMTP » Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:34 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:
EMTP wrote:
By all means, retreat to internet memes in the defense of your revisionism.


You are comparing Egypt to Nazi Germany because they both had military build-ups. As did Israel in the 50s. As did America in the 1950s. Did Egypt have a good reason to improve their armed forces? How about the fact that Israel invaded Egypt in 1956 in collaboration with Britain and France? Or maybe it was when Israel recruited 13 Egyptian Jews to carry out terrorist attacks against British and American targets in Egypt (and blame Islamic terrorists) -- that might make a country feel they need a little protection.

And while we're on the subject of the ludicrous propaganda you're calling un-revised history, please note it was Israel that rejected feelers for peace talks from Egypt and Syria following the 1949 armistice.

The fact that you have no argument without jumping to comparisons to the Nazis is actually a pretty sensitive indicator of crappy research and bogus reasoning, but in your case, it's only the first of many signs.

The Reaper wrote: I do believe this is a valid comparison.


It's not even close. Egypt had performed poorly in the 1948 war, and been attacked multiple times by Israel prior to 1967, including a full-scale invasion in 1956, in which Egypt regained the lost territory only via international diplomatic pressure on Israel. They had every reason to improve their military in the face of a powerful, belligerent, expansionist neighbor with proven designs on their territory. A more appropriate comparison would be between Egypt's buildup in the 60s and France's in the 30s.
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Re: Oh, THAT Secret Nuclear Facility

Postby BlackSails » Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:33 am UTC

EMTP wrote:
And while we're on the subject of the ludicrous propaganda you're calling un-revised history, please note it was Israel that rejected feelers for peace talks from Egypt and Syria following the 1949 armistice.


Lol. Thats why Israel was willing to give back the entire sinai desert to egypt in exchange for peace. Wait, giving back the Sinai was some sort of evil jewish plot, wasnt it?

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Re: Oh, THAT Secret Nuclear Facility

Postby EMTP » Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:39 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:¡This cheese is burning me!. Thats why Israel was willing to give back the entire sinai desert to egypt in exchange for peace. Wait, giving back the Sinai was some sort of evil jewish plot, wasnt it?


So because Israel signed a peace treaty with Egypt in 1981, this for you proves that they cannot have been opposed to peace treaties in 1949, or in the 1950s? That's not even bad history. It's just self-serving mythology. Following the Yom Kippur war in 1973, in which Egypt performed well, Israel became more interested in peace with Egypt -- unsurprisingly. Give the neighborhood bully a bloody nose, and they reliably become more interested in coexistence.
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Re: Oh, THAT Secret Nuclear Facility

Postby aleflamedyud » Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:50 pm UTC

Give the neighborhood bully a bloody nose, and they reliably become more interested in coexistence.

I can't believe you just unironically called Israel the neighborhood bully.

This has been Feeding the Troll to Link a Bob Dylan Song.
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Re: Oh, THAT Secret Nuclear Facility

Postby EMTP » Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:37 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:
Give the neighborhood bully a bloody nose, and they reliably become more interested in coexistence.

I can't believe you just unironically called Israel the neighborhood bully.

This has been Feeding the Troll to Link a Bob Dylan Song.


Many bullies whine about how misunderstood they are.

Dylan taking a break from his misogynistic crooning to shill for the poor, poor warmongering Israelis gave me a smile many years ago. It's not new to me. Whine on, Dylan and friends, your bigoted blubbering brightens my day.
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Re: Oh, THAT Secret Nuclear Facility

Postby Philwelch » Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:45 am UTC

Oh great, lessons in not being bigoted from Mister I Spent The Whole Thread Denouncing The Jews.
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Re: Oh, THAT Secret Nuclear Facility

Postby EMTP » Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:55 am UTC

Philwelch wrote:Oh great, lessons in not being bigoted from Mister I Spent The Whole Thread Denouncing The Jews.


YAWN. Get a life. Those baseless allegations of racism against critics of Israel just don't work any more. Now that people like you have called Jimmy Carter and Desmond Tutu racists, you have officially lost all credibility forever.

Now, I know you'd like to get away from a factual discussion and back to lobbing insults back and forth, but I'll be honest -- your insults are too boring to keep my attention. So see if you can find something substantive to say, or jump over to the latest masterpiece of anti-Iranian claptrap by our resident "I'm an Israeli Nationalist On An American Website Starting One Thread After Another About How Horrible Iran Is, And Anyone Who Questions That Is a Troll."
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Re: Oh, THAT Secret Nuclear Facility

Postby Freakish » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:18 am UTC

EMTP wrote:
Philwelch wrote:Oh great, lessons in not being bigoted from Mister I Spent The Whole Thread Denouncing The Jews.


YAWN. Get a life. Those baseless allegations of racism against critics of Israel just don't work any more. Now that people like you have called Jimmy Carter and Desmond Tutu racists, you have officially lost all credibility forever.

Now, I know you'd like to get away from a factual discussion and back to lobbing insults back and forth, but I'll be honest -- your insults are too boring to keep my attention. So see if you can find something substantive to say, or jump over to the latest masterpiece of anti-Iranian claptrap by our resident "I'm an Israeli Nationalist On An American Website Starting One Thread After Another About How Horrible Iran Is, And Anyone Who Questions That Is a Troll."


EMTP wrote:
Fix'd. You may continue uselessly equivocating.


Who brought the bus bomb to the Middle East? You did. Irgun scum invented it. What about the marketplace bomb? Jewish terrorists. The drive-by shooting? Jewish terrorists. Who has murdered ten times as many unarmed civilians as every other "terrorist organization" put together? The state of Israel.

You really should wipe the blood off your mouth before you speak.
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Re: Oh, THAT Secret Nuclear Facility

Postby EMTP » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:52 am UTC

MY country doesn't have publicly genocidal motives backed up by a muslim extremist theocracy.


And that other person is a genocidal power-hungry extremist muslim fanatic who calls for the destruction of the state of Israel.


Hamas and Hizballah act as Saudi and Iranian gendarmes toward the end of letting Saudi Arabia or Iran extend their regional influence by winning the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in the name of Islam. Note that this ignores Levantine Christians, who at one point composed large amounts of the Palestinian and Lebanese populations but have at this point suffered large-scale murder and exile by the Muslims.


So how about it, Freakish? Is identifying the religious group carrying out the particular act you despise racist? Because I certainty didn't start it. There were, are, and will be Jewish terrorists and Jewish fundamentalists. But for some reason, people who don't blink at attributing evil to "the Muslims" feel entitled to cry racism when bad acts carried out by Jews are attributed as such.

Now, we could leave all faith-based adjectives out of the discussion. That's consistent. But watch the hypocrisy, OK?
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Re: Oh, THAT Secret Nuclear Facility

Postby Freakish » Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:09 am UTC

I just think it's odd to use Jewish as the one word to describe a person. Also, how am I being hypocritical, I haven't said anything.
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Re: Oh, THAT Secret Nuclear Facility

Postby EMTP » Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:17 am UTC

Freakish wrote:I just think it's odd to use Jewish as the one word to describe a person. Also, how am I being hypocritical, I haven't said anything.


I used it in the context of responding to the idea that Iran associated with "Muslim terrorists" and hence was "evil." Also, pre-state organizations are tricky to describe: they aren't Israeli when they predate the existence of the state, although "Zionist terrorists" was another, perhaps better, word choice. But I don't think either phrasing demonstrates "denouncing the Jews" as Phil asserted above (you may note that I attributed nothing to "the Jews" as in contrast to "large-scale murder" attributed to "the Muslims." Double standard, anyone?) In any case, I think it would be a good idea to get off the subject of the character of the posters (a subject I have unwisely strayed into myself) and try to stay on something resembling the topic.
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Re: Oh, THAT Secret Nuclear Facility

Postby Atlas. » Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:08 am UTC

EMTP wrote:
So how about it, Freakish? Is identifying the religious group carrying out the particular act you despise racist? Because I certainty didn't start it. There were, are, and will be Jewish terrorists and Jewish fundamentalists. But for some reason, people who don't blink at attributing evil to "the Muslims" feel entitled to cry racism when bad acts carried out by Jews are attributed as such.

Now, we could leave all faith-based adjectives out of the discussion. That's consistent. But watch the hypocrisy, OK?


The major difference I see between Jewish fundamentalists and Muslim fundamentalists in regards to United States foreign policy is that the MFs have a history of trying to hit American targets, WTC 93, USS Cole, WTC 01. As of yet the JFs haven't attacked a US target so we don't care about them at the moment. I am sure if a JF group got a nuclear weapon and promised to use it we would rapidly get involved. It’s mostly self interest we focus on one and not the other merely because only one of the groups appears to be a threat to US, not because we think JF is ok and MF is not.
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Re: Oh, THAT Secret Nuclear Facility

Postby aleflamedyud » Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:13 pm UTC

OK, first of all, can some mod peek in and decide whether or not we've got more to say about the secret nuclear facility?

Secondly, I think the Jewish fundamentalists have attacked America. Crown Heights and the Jewish sections of Brooklyn are just neighborhood-sized fundamentalist terrorist attacks, amirite? Seriously, freaking Ashkenazi kosher restaurants should go down in the books as a form of terrorism. END BORSHT PROLIFERATION NOW!
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Re: Oh, THAT Secret Nuclear Facility

Postby The Reaper » Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:52 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:OK, first of all, can some mod peak in and decide whether or not we've got more to say about the secret nuclear facility?

Secondly, I think the Jewish fundamentalists have attacked America. Crown Heights and the Jewish sections of Brooklyn are just neighborhood-sized fundamentalist terrorist attacks, amirite? Seriously, freaking Ashkenazi kosher restaurants should go down in the books as a form of terrorism. END BORSHT PROLIFERATION NOW!

Peek. And Iran is opening up the tables on having other countries process the uranium so they can just buy it back pre-processed so they can have their nuclear power program and quit being accused of weapons manufacturing. http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNew ... TJ20091007

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Re: Oh, THAT Secret Nuclear Facility

Postby EMTP » Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:08 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:Secondly, I think the Jewish fundamentalists have attacked America. Crown Heights and the Jewish sections of Brooklyn are just neighborhood-sized fundamentalist terrorist attacks, amirite? Seriously, freaking Ashkenazi kosher restaurants should go down in the books as a form of terrorism. END BORSHT PROLIFERATION NOW!


Baruch Kappel Goldstein (Hebrew: ברוך גולדשטיין‎; December 9, 1956 – February 25, 1994) was an American born Israeli physician who perpetrated the 1994 Cave of the Patriarchs massacre in the city of Hebron, killing 29 Muslims at prayer in the Ibrahimi Mosque (within the Cave of the Patriarchs) and wounding another 150 in a shooting attack.

The gravesite has become a pilgrimage site for those with extreme right-wing political views; a plaque near the grave reads "To the holy Baruch Goldstein, who gave his life for the Jewish people, the Torah and the nation of Israel."


Fundamentalism? Or just Zionists bein' Zionists? It's a tricky question, but go ahead and pretend we're talking about side curls and borsht. That's a well-worn dodge: hold up the inoffensive behavior of American Jews (a very different cultural group and 2% of the population) and pretend that these are the same people we're talking about who are conducting pogroms up and down the West Bank in an explicitly declared "price tag" policy, or those who rave about "Arabs seducing Jewish girls," or declaim "Amalek must be destroyed" from the comfort of their state-funded synagogues.
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