Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby Angua » Tue May 19, 2009 4:39 pm UTC

psyck0 wrote:
Yeah, he's an american conservative. I have noticed something arguing with those here. They refuse to believe that anything that works elsewhere could possibly also work the same way in their precious country, due to "cultural differences" or some other such bullshit, and will spend hours screaming at the rooftops that it just won't work rather than taking the chance of trying it to see. They do this even when it is clear that their own system is not working, that the proposed foreign system is, and even when they have no clear alternative ideas themselves but just want to prolong the status quo. You get the identical issue with higher taxes and socialised heath care- both are broken in the US, both work great elsewhere, but AmeriCons refuse to acknowledge that other countries could possibly have something that works.
But, it's the greatest country in the world, founded on freedom and such-like.


I think that the insurance idea is good, as knowing insurance companies, the rates will go up as soon as they have to file a claim, so the businesses will make double sure that they fire people for justified reasons. I'm not sure how it works in the US, but here Social Security (which gets taken out of your paycheck) generally covers the sick leave (but don't know how long you keep claiming for, though I think that as long as a doctor says you can't work you're ok) so the small business would just have to hire an employee on a temporary basis until the other one is back on their feet. The business itself doesn't actually pay the sick employee. You may have to have been working a certain period of time before you're eligible (iirc it's something like 3 months, but I can't be certain, we just had a talk about it in school and it was ages ago) but as you keep paying SS to the same place no matter which job you're in, I don't think that you have to have been in that job for that period of time, but again I'm not completely certain.

Note, I'm talking about the system in St. Kitts and Nevis, not the UK.
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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby Belial » Tue May 19, 2009 4:42 pm UTC

psyck0 wrote:They do this even when it is clear that their own system is not working, that the proposed foreign system is, and even when they have no clear alternative ideas themselves but just want to prolong the status quo.


The point to take note of is that, in these cases, the status quo works for them, even if it doesn't for tons of other people.
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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby slow2learn » Tue May 19, 2009 4:45 pm UTC

some people have written wrote: -Yeah, he's an american conservative.
-I am pointing out how self-interested a stance that is

And, if you've got an issue with my debating style, then continue the ad hom... It's only reassuring me that you've got nothing to take my argument down.

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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby Vaniver » Tue May 19, 2009 4:48 pm UTC

psyck0 wrote:Yeah, he's an american conservative. I have noticed something arguing with those here. They refuse to believe that anything that works elsewhere could possibly also work the same way in their precious country, due to "cultural differences" or some other such bullshit, and will spend hours screaming at the rooftops that it just won't work rather than taking the chance of trying it to see. They do this even when it is clear that their own system is not working, that the proposed foreign system is, and even when they have no clear alternative ideas themselves but just want to prolong the status quo. You get the identical issue with higher taxes and socialised heath care- both are broken in the US, both work great elsewhere, but AmeriCons refuse to acknowledge that other countries could possibly have something that works.
The issue is a bit more complicated than that. Descriptions such as "US healthcare broken, European healthcare great!" are incomplete, to say the least.

Besides, a lot of the difference in opinion probably comes from a difference in experience and... I can't think of a better phrase than "broad-mindedness," but I doubt that's the best phrase to use. For, example, I run a small business and work- and consider the impact to customers, workers, and employers when I look at an economic policy. When someone looks at things as a worker and through a class warfare mindset, it blinds them to the considerations of others.

I mean, even Belial appears to have an immediate link in his mind that says "corporation = rich white Christians," despite how wrong and out of place that is. Not only are we rarely talking about corporations (the benefits to having your small business be a corporation are minimal, depending on how you define "small business." If you do it by revenue, there's pretty much no point to have a low-revenue corporation; if you do it by number of employees, then there are some high-revenue small businesses that benefit by being corporations. But they're a small percentage of small businesses as a whole), but characterizing small business owners as rich, white Christians suggests a deep unfamiliarity with the makeup of small businesses across the country.

And even if we were talking about publicly traded corporations, who owns them? Not only rich investors, but institutional investors- like pension funds. So anything that hurts the S&P, for example, hurts everyone who has a pension. People are more interconnected than a rich vs. poor model would suggest.
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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby Belial » Tue May 19, 2009 4:50 pm UTC

slow2learn wrote:And, if you've got an issue with my debating style, then continue the ad hom... It's only reassuring me that you've got nothing to take my argument down.


I'm sorry, do you still have an argument? You've stated that you're basically not going to support any of your positions, with some derisive comments about how gathering data to support your claims (claims that are central to any effort to defend your position) is beneath you, or too much effort.

In other words, you haven't made an argument. You've just stated a position.

Hard to "take down" what doesn't exist. Maybe next I'll fetch my gun and we'll go unicorn hunting
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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby slow2learn » Tue May 19, 2009 5:01 pm UTC

Belial wrote:Maybe next I'll fetch my gun and we'll go unicorn hunting


Yes! I"m in if you are.

I think you are faking my position rather unfairly.

I have from the begining been completely honest about how I dont like discrimination, and that I am completly willing to get illegalize it when it doesn't require the complete shutdown of all small businesses.

Whats so crazy about that position? Whats so crazy about not wanting to be a statistic muncher? Whats so crazy about not feeling responsible to prove to this forum through high level college work that my opinion is backed by the facts?

I can't just have the opinion? No one has yet pointed out how small businesses can survive when under trial. No one has shown statistics otherwise. We've heard of countries that dont have this problem. How neat for them. We do have this problem.

You'd rather sit there and point the finger at me like i'm the problem. I'm the reason that blacks/gays/women/'shaped' people are discriminated against. Because i wont scream bloody murder, you see me as white priviledge.

So I ask you. Belial. (who's white and male) What have you done to stop this discrimination? If your so worried about it, what congressmen have you written? What studies have you done to prove the politians that they are wrong about lawsuits shutting down small businesses?

I'm gone. I'll be back in a few weeks after I cool down. If i haven't already earned a perm-ban.

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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby Belial » Tue May 19, 2009 5:09 pm UTC

I have from the begining been completely honest about how I dont like discrimination, and that I am completly willing to get illegalize it when it doesn't require the complete shutdown of all small businesses


Complete shutdown of all small businesses? Right, because that would happen.

Alternately: To hear you talk, you'd think small businesses never get sued now, if the possibility of lawsuit for wrongdoing was enough to cause every single one of them to shut their doors.

I can't just have the opinion? No one has yet pointed out how small businesses can survive when under trial. No one has shown statistics otherwise. We've heard of countries that dont have this problem. How neat for them. We do have this problem.


No, we kindof don't. Or we'd never know if we did, because we currently don't allow people to sue even in cases where they're fully justified.

You'd rather sit there and point the finger at me like i'm the problem. I'm the reason that blacks/gays/women/'shaped' people are discriminated against. Because i wont scream bloody murder, you see me as white priviledge.


No, it's not that you won't "scream bloody murder". It's that you're actively against fixing it. A position that is, again, noticeably self-serving.

So I ask you. Belial. (who's white and male) What have you done to stop this discrimination? If your so worried about it, what congressmen have you written? What studies have you done to prove the politians that they are wrong about lawsuits shutting down small businesses?


I'm not going to sit here and engage in a social-benefit credential contest with you, because it misses the point. Instead, I'll point out the one cogent point: I'm not making an impediment of myself.
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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby psyck0 » Tue May 19, 2009 5:11 pm UTC

Except that apparently, other countries can manage to make discrimination completely illegal without killing small businesses. If anything, the US has MORE of a problem with giant companies having monopolies than elsewhere indicating perhaps a lack of small business success. Look at Starbucks for one great example- it opens up and small, indie coffee shops fail. Someone points this out and you ignore them, ergo you have no argument because you are unwilling to deal with any refutations, and you get upset that I call you on this.

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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby MoghLiechty2 » Tue May 19, 2009 5:30 pm UTC

psyck0 wrote:Except that apparently, other countries can manage to make discrimination completely illegal without killing small businesses. If anything, the US has MORE of a problem with giant companies having monopolies than elsewhere indicating perhaps a lack of small business success. Look at Starbucks for one great example- it opens up and small, indie coffee shops fail. Someone points this out and you ignore them, ergo you have no argument because you are unwilling to deal with any refutations, and you get upset that I call you on this.

Trying what has been tried elsewhere because it worked for them is absolutely not a default course of action. Refusing to examine the merits of the system for the merits of the system, then calling those who would like to do so bigoted, is irresponsible and itself bigoted. Success (or lack of) in other governments is merely a factor to consider, even if it actually was the case that every single time it's been tried it's worked. But all you did was bring it up without any qualifying data, claiming that you've won the argument.

Seriously though, slow2learn seriously wanted to just discuss something he'd formed an opinion about, actually wanting good, college-level, calm refutations to ideas that don't seem so evil to him... And all he gets are bigoted responses claiming he's bigoted.

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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby btilly » Tue May 19, 2009 6:15 pm UTC

psyck0 wrote:Except that apparently, other countries can manage to make discrimination completely illegal without killing small businesses. If anything, the US has MORE of a problem with giant companies having monopolies than elsewhere indicating perhaps a lack of small business success. Look at Starbucks for one great example- it opens up and small, indie coffee shops fail. Someone points this out and you ignore them, ergo you have no argument because you are unwilling to deal with any refutations, and you get upset that I call you on this.

The fact that Starbucks is an effective competitor does not indicate a universal problem for small businesses. Here is a counter-example. You can't name a country in Western Europe that has had as many small businesses go on to achieve outstanding success in as short a time as Silicon Valley. This small region is literally bubbling with small companies with big ideas. Admittedly most go under. Lots achieve modest success. Some are very successful. A few are wildly successful. You may not think of, say, Google as a small business. But 11 years ago it was 2 guys and an idea. 10 years ago it was a small business. Then it exploded. Could it have done that if the environment was truly biased against small businesses?
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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby Ixtellor » Tue May 19, 2009 6:53 pm UTC

Tom decides to start a tree trimming business. He takes out a small business loan and buys the tools, a truck, and a trailer.
His one man operation is taking too much time, so he decides to hire on a worker.
He hires Mary.
Mary is awsome at tree trimming. Since this two 'man' team is in constant contact and work side by side, it doesn't take Tom long to figure out Mary is a fundamentalist evangelical.
She believes firmly in prosletizing and telling Tom all about her religion.
Tom tells her to be quiet, and she complies.
Tom finds out Mary is a big time activist in trying to get the schools to have prayer, and stop teaching evolution.

Tom decides he despises Mary and everything she stands for thus he doesn't want to work with her any longer. Tom fires Mary because of her fundy beliefs and he just doesn't want to be around people like that.

The end.



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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby Belial » Tue May 19, 2009 7:18 pm UTC

Ooo, read me another, I'm not sleepy yet!

No, really, what was the moral of that supposed to be? That this situation is exactly like that one (it isn't in one critical way)? That that situation is defensible? That it isn't? What?
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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby btilly » Tue May 19, 2009 7:31 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:Tom decides to start a tree trimming business. He takes out a small business loan and buys the tools, a truck, and a trailer.
His one man operation is taking too much time, so he decides to hire on a worker.
He hires Mary.
Mary is awsome at tree trimming. Since this two 'man' team is in constant contact and work side by side, it doesn't take Tom long to figure out Mary is a fundamentalist evangelical.
She believes firmly in prosletizing and telling Tom all about her religion.
Tom tells her to be quiet, and she complies.
Tom finds out Mary is a big time activist in trying to get the schools to have prayer, and stop teaching evolution.

Tom decides he despises Mary and everything she stands for thus he doesn't want to work with her any longer. Tom fires Mary because of her fundy beliefs and he just doesn't want to be around people like that.

Despite the fact that I don't like Mary or anything she stands for, I want her to be able to sue and win. Because if the rules aren't there for people we don't like, then they're not going to be there if someone we do like is affected.

And face it. In our society an atheist is a heck of a lot more likely to be discriminated against than a fundamentalist Christian.
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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby fwlbg » Tue May 19, 2009 7:45 pm UTC

Although I think that bosses should be able to fire workers for whatever reason they want, I still think that this is bat-shit crazy, and that guy really is a fucking asshole.

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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby psyck0 » Tue May 19, 2009 8:11 pm UTC

MoghLiechty2 wrote:
psyck0 wrote:Except that apparently, other countries can manage to make discrimination completely illegal without killing small businesses. If anything, the US has MORE of a problem with giant companies having monopolies than elsewhere indicating perhaps a lack of small business success. Look at Starbucks for one great example- it opens up and small, indie coffee shops fail. Someone points this out and you ignore them, ergo you have no argument because you are unwilling to deal with any refutations, and you get upset that I call you on this.

Trying what has been tried elsewhere because it worked for them is absolutely not a default course of action. Refusing to examine the merits of the system for the merits of the system, then calling those who would like to do so bigoted, is irresponsible and itself bigoted. Success (or lack of) in other governments is merely a factor to consider, even if it actually was the case that every single time it's been tried it's worked. But all you did was bring it up without any qualifying data, claiming that you've won the argument.

Seriously though, slow2learn seriously wanted to just discuss something he'd formed an opinion about, actually wanting good, college-level, calm refutations to ideas that don't seem so evil to him... And all he gets are bigoted responses claiming he's bigoted.

1) I didn't bring it up, someone else did. I pounced on slowpoke for ignoring it, as AmeriCons always do.
2) See what I mean? America is somehow special again. The success of other countries is irrelevant to you. "One factor to consider" gives you your precious way out.
3) I did not intend to say that small businesses have more trouble in the US. I intended to point out that they seem to have no less trouble.
4) As Belial has pointed out, I see nothing slowpoke has contributed to discuss except for his own opinion, which is bigoted, and his statements that he doesn't care about the evidence, he's happy with his opinion.

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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby Ixtellor » Tue May 19, 2009 8:33 pm UTC

Belial wrote:No, really, what was the moral of that supposed to be?


Too many to count.

Lets start with some basic information though.
#1
There were 250,621,789 jobs available in America.
Then Tom added one more by taking a huge financial risk.
As a result of Tom's amazingly risky endevour Mary was able to get that brand new job.

This is a story of the amazing story of how Mary was a beneficiary of Tom's hard work and financial risk. It didn't last forever... but nothing does. This is a glass half-full story. Mary had a good job for a while, then she didn't.

#2 - Nobody on earth owes you a job. Its a privilege to have a job provided to you by another human being.

#3 - People do deserve equal opportunity. Mary had her opportunity -- Justice Served!

In the real story.

A worker was given a job, that was subsequently denied to others.
They had a good run and made some good money. Then their boss fired them. The reason doesn't matter. Because this is a positive story. The good news is that that job is now available to other people who are looking for an opportunity. 8.9% of Americans are unemployeed and struggling to make ends meat, and now they have an opportunity to fix their life.
If you want to feel sorry for someone, feel sorry for all the people who didn't get that job and never made any money. Who knows, maybe a person had to eat out of a garbage can and sleep in their car as a result of not getting that awsome job.

#4 Life if unfair. The sooner you realize this, the better able you will have the capacity to cope with life and plan for your future.

fwlbg wrote:Although I think that bosses should be able to fire workers for whatever reason they want, I still think that this is bat-shit crazy, and that guy really is a fucking asshole.


That did seem like a total dick, yet economically sound, action. I personally would hopefully have the compassion to eat the financial losses and help out that human being. But then again, I haven't created any jobs allowing people to better their lives so, I am not really in a position to judge that boss.

What happens if he keeps on the cancer patient and as a result of lost productivity and increased insurance payments -- IN A RECESSION -- the company goes out of business and every single worker there loses their job?
(Write your congressman about Universal HealthCare if you want to actually help -- or you could just make angry blogs!)


#5 In a free society, you are allowed to be a "fucking asshole". (This is your cue to make a personal attack). I am personally nice to every person I meet and treat all humans with equal respect regardless of any demographic factors. [I am admittedly less nice on an anonymous internet forum]. So even if your a total dick, I will defend to the death your right to be that way. I think we call it freedom.. or something like that.


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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby King of Frogs » Tue May 19, 2009 8:40 pm UTC

Despite my small involvment in this discussion, I think i shall take this time to officially bow out. We're arguing round and round about worker's vs employer's rights, and frankly, for me this is like being an atheist and arguing theology. I don't believe there should be individuals in charge of workforces, call me radical, but I am really all for democratically controlled workplaces owned by everyone who works there - oh and an end to that whole capitalism thing. I don't think I'd make much headway with that argument and it would doubtless go off topic so I'll just leave you guys to it.
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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby Indon » Tue May 19, 2009 9:04 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:Too many to count.


#6 - Because we, too, possess the power to act unethically, we should give up on fighting for ethical standards.

But more seriously, if you seriously hold the position that government should stay out of enforcing equality between people, you should've spoken up on that a long time ago, because precedent nowadays would be that this is not only an untenable position, but an absurd one.
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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby Heisenberg » Tue May 19, 2009 9:07 pm UTC

psyck0 wrote:I see nothing slowpoke has contributed to discuss except for his own opinion, which is bigoted,

Supporting an employer's right to end a contract without justifying his decision to you/the government is neither hateful, nor bigoted. It seems to contradict your belief that the employee has some right that has been violated here, but not all people who disagree with you are hateful bigots.

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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby Indon » Tue May 19, 2009 9:18 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:Supporting an employer's right to end a contract without justifying his decision to you/the government is neither hateful, nor bigoted.


But it is factually incorrect - existing laws rather clearly demonstrate that if this could be argued to be a 'right' at all, it's a distant and feeble one, easily overridden by the right to be equally treated.

Civil rights laws do not have small-business exemptions because the rights of small business owners are somehow more important than the rights of large business owners. It's that there are enforceability problems at that scale.
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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby Ixtellor » Tue May 19, 2009 9:55 pm UTC

Indon wrote:
Ixtellor wrote:Too many to count.


#6 - Because we, too, possess the power to act unethically, we should give up on fighting for ethical standards.

But more seriously, if you seriously hold the position that government should stay out of enforcing equality between people, you should've spoken up on that a long time ago, because precedent nowadays would be that this is not only an untenable position, but an absurd one.


Equality for the federal government means two things.
1) Equality before the law.
2) Equal opportunity.

The fights involve the government failing to live up to these ideals/requirements. (See Gay marriage) I don't see how in this particular case the worker was denied either of the two above equality issues.

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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby Vaniver » Tue May 19, 2009 11:36 pm UTC

psyck0 wrote:Except that apparently, other countries can manage to make discrimination completely illegal without killing small businesses. If anything, the US has MORE of a problem with giant companies having monopolies than elsewhere indicating perhaps a lack of small business success. Look at Starbucks for one great example- it opens up and small, indie coffee shops fail. Someone points this out and you ignore them, ergo you have no argument because you are unwilling to deal with any refutations, and you get upset that I call you on this.
This is a great example- because yours is actually the opposite of fact. Starbucks gets people into drinking quality coffee, and then a lot of them turn to mom and pop coffeeshops.
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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby Indon » Wed May 20, 2009 12:21 am UTC

Ixtellor wrote:I don't see how in this particular case the worker was denied either of the two above equality issues.


Because not everyone equally has the opportunity to be fired for religious beliefs - nonchristians are by far favored, and that's just not fair for the poor christians?
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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby psyck0 » Wed May 20, 2009 12:31 am UTC

She was not given equal opportunity. She was a competent employee who tolerated her coworkers' beliefs and even harassment for her own beliefs, and was fired for them despite proving herself where a christian would not have been fired. Not equal opportunity.

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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby Ixtellor » Wed May 20, 2009 1:34 pm UTC

psyck0 wrote:She was not given equal opportunity. She was a competent employee who tolerated her coworkers' beliefs and even harassment for her own beliefs, and was fired for them despite proving herself where a christian would not have been fired. Not equal opportunity.


1) You don't know the real reason she was fired, your speculating.
2) She was given the job over all the other applicants. She had more than an opportunity for the job she had the job... the fact he fired her later is irrelevant. Its the bosses perogative to decide who he is going to give money to and supply with a great job. Its not an entitlement.

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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby Indon » Wed May 20, 2009 9:08 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:1) You don't know the real reason she was fired, your speculating.

You know how someone could get to the bottom of this?

With a court case.

Ixtellor wrote:2) She was given the job over all the other applicants. She had more than an opportunity for the job she had the job... the fact he fired her later is irrelevant.

Wait, what?

So 'equal opportunity' need only exist as far as symbolic hires that immediately get fired while the boss gets to scream, "YOU HAD YOUR CHANCE NIGGA"?

Seriously?
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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby Crius » Wed May 20, 2009 10:02 pm UTC

psyck0 wrote:Except that apparently, other countries can manage to make discrimination completely illegal without killing small businesses. If anything, the US has MORE of a problem with giant companies having monopolies than elsewhere indicating perhaps a lack of small business success. Look at Starbucks for one great example- it opens up and small, indie coffee shops fail. Someone points this out and you ignore them, ergo you have no argument because you are unwilling to deal with any refutations, and you get upset that I call you on this.


An assertation that small businesses are "fine" is not a particularly compelling argument, since no (rational) argument is being made that enacting these laws would completely kill the small businesses.

Comparing the state of small businesses would be a better approach. Wikipedia had some decent data for the U.S., but not any other countries, and my google-fu failed to turn up similar data for any other countries.

wikipedia wrote:Contribution to the economy
In the US, small business (less than 500 employees) accounts for around half the GDP and more than half the employment. Regarding small business, the top job provider is those with less than 10 employees, and those with 10 or more but less than 20 employees comes in as the second, and those with 20 or more but less than 100 employees comes in as the third (interpolation of data from the following references).[3] The most recent data shows firms with less than 20 employees account for slightly more than 18% of the employment.[4]

Of the 5,369,068 employer firms in 1995, 78.8 percent had fewer than 10 employees, and 99.7 percent had fewer than 500 employees.[5]

BrantDonaldson
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Re: Worker fired for atheism, not legally discrimination (Texas)

Postby BrantDonaldson » Thu May 21, 2009 3:47 am UTC

Found this via the google.

Just a little update.

CBS 11 interviewed us today. They only had time for a two minute segment but are waiting to see how things go with the Employment Commission who is going to do a full investigation into the claim that Amanda was fired for being an Atheist.


http://cbs11tv.com/religion/Atheist.Claims.Discrimination.2.1015271.html


They did a lot of interviewing us and whatnot but told us about the time restraints. I think it came off very fair and balanced to both our side and the doctors side.

Since it aired a few minutes ago, we have got calls from several other media outlets wanting to do further investigations.


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