2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby Thesh » Thu May 09, 2019 2:54 pm UTC

Chen wrote:If there are no objections to the details of the solution, the discussion tends to move towards how to implement it.


There have been no details discussed in this thread at all.
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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby Chen » Thu May 09, 2019 3:20 pm UTC

Apologies I meant details as in the "what" of the solution as opposed to the "how". You proposed non-profit news organizations and professional associations who would have oversight over journalists. I don't think anyone actually objected to either of those things. I personally don't. I believe they would help. I don't know how to implement them, especially if, as you said, you wouldn't want to drive the creation of these things by law. So I'm not really sure why there needs to be any debate on what needs to be done with the non-profit news organizations or the professional associations if they were to exist. The next step would be figuring out HOW to get them to exist and to exist in sufficient number so as to combat the problem they are designed to solve.

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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby Thesh » Thu May 09, 2019 3:30 pm UTC

Chen wrote:The next step would be figuring out HOW to get them to exist and to exist in sufficient number so as to combat the problem they are designed to solve.


No, the first step is understanding the problems. The organizations are created in response to specific problems, not the general existence of problems. It's not an all or nothing process - a small group of people can create an organization now, but unless they understand what they are trying to accomplish they will probably fail to accomplish their goal.
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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby idonno » Thu May 09, 2019 3:38 pm UTC

I have now read manufacturing consent and my questions have not changed. In fact, it is my opinion that the issues discussed in that book back up my questions.

1.3 acknowledges that it is more expensive to report if you don’t just take information from sources which are presumed credible and explains how the government currently takes advantage of this to provide their version of “credible” information to the media
1.2 Blatantly points out massive issues caused by using advertisers for revenue.

So if it costs more and one of your revenue streams works counter to your goal, how will you pay for it?


There are several instances in the book where a small fraction of informed people are unable to make a difference so you do need mainstream adoption of this practice. You need some mechanism to get from a few people being better informed to a large percentage of the population which means you have to overcome the biases that exist in the majority of the population. As manufacturing consent put it, “In the category of supportive factors, we find, first of all, elemental patriotism, the overwhelming wish to think well of ourselves, our institutions, and our leaders. We see ourselves as basically good and decent in personal life, so it must be that our institutions function in accordance with the same benevolent intent, an argument that is often persuasive even though it is a transparent non sequitur. The patriotic premise is reinforced by the belief that "we the people" rule, a central principle of the system of indoctrination from early childhood, but also one with little merit, as an analysis of the social and political system will quickly reveal. There are also real advantages in conformity beyond the re-wards and privilege that it yields.”
“But a critical analysis of American institutions, the way they function domestically and their international operations, must meet far higher standards; in fact, standards are often imposed that can barely be met in the natural sciences. One has to work hard, to produce evidence that is credible, to construct serious arguments, to present extensive documentation-all tasks that are superfluous as long as one remains within the presuppositional framework of the doctrinal consensus.”
This is the level of bias you are up against. So I will ask again how does your solution address this?

If you cannot provide any idea of how your proposal even begins to overcome these issues, I will continue to think that it won't work.

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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby Chen » Thu May 09, 2019 3:40 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:No, the first step is understanding the problems. The organizations are created in response to specific problems, not the general existence of problems. It's not an all or nothing process - a small group of people can create an organization now, but unless they understand what they are trying to accomplish they will probably fail to accomplish their goal.


But you already proposed the two above mentioned thing as the solution to the problem. Why do we need to go back and argue or discuss the problem again? Im saying, yeah I agree with your solutions. Lets get them implemented. How do we do that?

Seriously what am I missing here?

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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby Thesh » Thu May 09, 2019 3:42 pm UTC

What you are missing is that there has been no discussion of the problem.
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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby Chen » Thu May 09, 2019 3:51 pm UTC

So what were the proposed solutions for? I thought we were talking about combating fake news and other problems with the current mainstream media?

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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby maybeagnostic » Fri May 10, 2019 12:23 pm UTC

Chen wrote:I thought we were talking about combating fake news and other problems with the current mainstream media?
Except when you actually get down to the details, you'll find there is very little agreement on what the actual problem is and therefore no understanding what needs to be done to actually solve it.
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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby ivnja » Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:49 am UTC

The first Democratic primary debate (parts 1 and 2) is in the books.

I didn't go into last night with strong feelings about any of the candidates, and honestly my biggest impression coming out of two nights of this is that the massive "debate" format does a huge disservice to the whole field. I spent a lot of tonight in particular being increasingly frustrated by all of the interruptions, shouting over each other, and ignoring the moderators, and I feel like it overshadowed what could have been an opportunity to actually learn something about policy positions. I don't understand why the Democratic Party would go with a format that encourages all this sniping right off the bat when most of the country (myself included) knows very little about most of the candidates and could really benefit from hearing what they're running on.

I also don't understand why NBC kept all ten mics hot the whole time. They could have solved the biggest problems by only turning on the mic of whichever candidate has been called on for a particular question. It was probably in the agreement between the network and the party, though?

tl;dr - If your event to highlight your candidates makes viewers hate them all, it's maybe not a good event.
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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby ObsessoMom » Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:34 am UTC

ivnja wrote:I also don't understand why NBC kept all ten mics hot the whole time. They could have solved the biggest problems by only turning on the mic of whichever candidate has been called on for a particular question. It was probably in the agreement between the network and the party, though?


Yes, I thought, "How hard can it be to make only the mic of the recognized person hot, for thirty seconds, and if they can't finish their thought within that amount of time, too bad for them--they'll be cut off. And anyone trying to interrupt will actually have to walk over and push someone away from the only hot mic."

But considering that NBC couldn't even manage to turn off the control room mics, perhaps I am not appreciating the difficulty of only turning on one candidate's mic at a time.

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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby JudeMorrigan » Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:48 pm UTC

The problem there is that 30 seconds isn't enough time for more than a useless soundbite. Really, there were just too danged many people in the debate(s).

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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby ivnja » Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:07 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:But considering that NBC couldn't even manage to turn off the control room mics, perhaps I am not appreciating the difficulty of only turning on one candidate's mic at a time.

Andrew Yang is claiming that his mic was cut for part of the debate, and video clips of him trying to interject without anything being heard seem to support that. NBC denies it, of course. Assuming it was off, I wonder if it was a tech issue like the control room gaffe or if they were cutting some mics for portions.
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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby reval » Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:21 pm UTC

idonno wrote: a small fraction of informed people are unable to make a difference so you do need mainstream adoption

Holding information out of the mainstream is certainly a main modus operendi for social control.

Mere publication is easier than in the days of paper, but the gatekeepers' elimination of all alternative perspectives from a mainstream view is even easier than that. The publication and discussion of alternate ideas within subcultures can still be worthwhile, but no one should be under any illusions that this can affect the mainstrean - unless and until the powers-that-be show enough signs of weakness that they can be shoved aside.

The preparation of alternatives for that opportunity is worthwhile.

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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby ObsessoMom » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:09 pm UTC

Hoo boy. This could backfire in interesting ways. I'm all for forcing Trump to release his tax returns, but I'm not sure keeping him off the California ballot until he does is the best way to do that. The optics of denying citizens of the most populous state the chance to vote for a sitting president are pretty awful.

Politico: California's Newsom signs bill to force Trump tax returns

California Gov. Gavin Newsom embraced a politically explosive and legally dubious attempt to pry loose President Donald Trump’s tax returns on Tuesday, signing legislation that would boot Trump from California primary ballots if he doesn’t make his filings public.

For Democrats who wield absolute control over Sacramento, the measure offered a chance to directly confront a president who is deeply unpopular among most California voters — and for Newsom to escalate his long-standing feud with the president while distinguishing himself from Gov. Jerry Brown, who vetoed a similar measure in 2017.

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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby Thesh » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:19 pm UTC

Well, it's not like Trump can't just release his tax returns.
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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby speising » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:37 pm UTC

why should trump even run in california, or any other deep blue state?

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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby Thesh » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:55 pm UTC

If there is a primary challenger, then Trump might not be able to win without being on the ballot in California. The general election matters in terms of getting Republicans out to vote for ballot measures and local candidates.
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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby ijuin » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:47 pm UTC

On the issue of Trump being excluded from the ballot in California, I am concerned that holding the election without the Republican nominee being on the ballot will result in the Federal Election Commission or the Supreme Court declaring California’s vote to thus be void, thus removing its 55 Electoral College votes from the totals, which is very likely to ensure a Trump victory (unless you think that the Democratic Party is likely to get an Electoral College victory without California). It would be a perfect excuse for the Trump Administration to nullify the election results.

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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby Thesh » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:02 pm UTC

The president is elected by the electoral college, not the voters, and the states can select their electors in whatever way they want. If the Supreme Court can make an excuse to rule that way, it's already too late for democratic change.
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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby freezeblade » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:08 pm UTC

ijuin wrote:On the issue of Trump being excluded from the ballot in California, I am concerned that holding the election without the Republican nominee being on the ballot will result in the Federal Election Commission or the Supreme Court declaring California’s vote to thus be void, thus removing its 55 Electoral College votes from the totals, which is very likely to ensure a Trump victory (unless you think that the Democratic Party is likely to get an Electoral College victory without California). It would be a perfect excuse for the Trump Administration to nullify the election results.


If the Trump Admin (or the SC) attempted to nullify the most populated state in the nation, I expect it may be the straw that breaks the camel's back for full on chaos to break out.
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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby Isaac Hill » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:21 pm UTC

The article is confusing. It says the law is for the primary, which selects delegates to the Republican National Convention, not the general election, meaning Trump will still be on the ballot come November 2020. But, there's a line about Trump not winning California's 55 Electors, which has nothing to do with the primary, so why include it?

What this could do is provide support to a Republican primary challenger to Trump. I doubt it'd be enough to swing the primary away from Trump. But, it could make things awkward at the convention. I don't know what the Republican party bylaws are regarding delegate counts, or if they can be changed in time for the 2020 convention. I'm pretty sure there's a roll call, where each state says who their delegates are voting for.
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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:51 pm UTC

I'm a little unclear on how exactly a law can change how a political party conducts its internal business. Aren't political parties private entities in America?
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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby Thesh » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:47 pm UTC

California administers the elections and prints the ballots; they probably have other requirements already.
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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby ObsessoMom » Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:35 am UTC

Thesh wrote:California administers the elections and prints the ballots; they probably have other requirements already.


The bar's pretty low.

Article II Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution wrote:No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.


The Supreme Court rejected many states' term limits on Senators and Congressmembers, saying that states didn't have the authority to impose additional restrictions that weren't in the U.S. Constitution. I assume the same objection would apply here. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Term ... ._Thornton

(There have been efforts to require Congressmembers to live in the districts they supposedly represent, but these have failed for the same reason. Gotta change the U.S. Constitution first.)

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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby gd1 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:28 am UTC

It seems that the corporations are so terrified of Bernie Sanders that they will float 20 other candidates to have a reason to black him out again.

It's nice that Colbert is a shill for them (do this or you're fired), because it's giving a little bit of that game plan away:
Late Show with Stephen Colbert clip on Gregory Whytman 2020 parody.

So they want to focus on him being an old white guy instead of the fact that Bernie has been consistent for 30 years.

Makes me wonder if Yang is a plant. Maybe he saw the light after being a corporate lawyer. Maybe not.

This is both pathetic and terrifying. It's pathetic because they have to stoop to this extreme. It's terrifying both because they can and because they are willing to do so. Anything for the bottom line I guess.
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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby elasto » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:57 am UTC

Bernie was interviewed on the Joe Rogan podcast this week.

I have to say he came across as pretty realistic and sensible to go alongside his principles and idealism. If I were American he'd definitely have my vote.

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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby gd1 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:07 am UTC

Bernie Sanders: If Elected, I Will Reveal Whether Aliens Exist (Late Show With Stephen Colbert YouTube)

Bernie Sanders Promises To Reveal If There Are Aliens (Daily Blast Live YouTube)
Watch at 24 seconds onwards on this clip.

Wow, ridiculously lacking in context. Bernie is asked if he would do something and says he would. He didn't float the idea on his own (much as it's presented almost as though he did). Moral bankruptcy on display in the news. Is it freedom of the press when corporations control the news for their own benefit to this extreme? I can't think of any good alternatives though.
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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby elasto » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:40 am UTC

It's a point made by Joe and Bernie early on in the interview itself: They lament that there is just no place in the news media for anything but cheap soundbites and manufactured conflict; You need modern media like podcasting to actually have the time and space to explore important issues in-depth.

And, yeah, the aliens question was because Joe is a playful alien-conspiracy-nut and he wouldn't miss the opportunity to ask, and Bernie responded with equal good humour...

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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby idonno » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:14 pm UTC

gd1 wrote:Bernie Sanders Promises To Reveal If There Are Aliens (Daily Blast Live YouTube)
Watch at 24 seconds onwards on this clip.


Given how low the starting credibility for 24/7 tv news that is actively reporting on a Bernie's promise to reveal if aliens exist, it is astounding how much the woman in green was able to lower her credibility in a few seconds. She quickly divided people up into two groups, those who want to know the truth and those who are in alignment with the government, completely ignoring what I suspect is the bulk of humans who are pretty sure we already know what the government knows about extra terrestrial life.

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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:13 pm UTC

Probably belongs here. Rep Steve King basically stated that he's opposed to abortion in cases of rape/incest because everyone is a descendant of rapists. At least, that's what I think he's saying. I mean, it's technically true, but by that logic we shouldn't prevent rapes in the first place because of all the children that might be conceived by it...


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