2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

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Thesh
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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby Thesh » Thu May 09, 2019 2:54 pm UTC

Chen wrote:If there are no objections to the details of the solution, the discussion tends to move towards how to implement it.


There have been no details discussed in this thread at all.
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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby Chen » Thu May 09, 2019 3:20 pm UTC

Apologies I meant details as in the "what" of the solution as opposed to the "how". You proposed non-profit news organizations and professional associations who would have oversight over journalists. I don't think anyone actually objected to either of those things. I personally don't. I believe they would help. I don't know how to implement them, especially if, as you said, you wouldn't want to drive the creation of these things by law. So I'm not really sure why there needs to be any debate on what needs to be done with the non-profit news organizations or the professional associations if they were to exist. The next step would be figuring out HOW to get them to exist and to exist in sufficient number so as to combat the problem they are designed to solve.

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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby Thesh » Thu May 09, 2019 3:30 pm UTC

Chen wrote:The next step would be figuring out HOW to get them to exist and to exist in sufficient number so as to combat the problem they are designed to solve.


No, the first step is understanding the problems. The organizations are created in response to specific problems, not the general existence of problems. It's not an all or nothing process - a small group of people can create an organization now, but unless they understand what they are trying to accomplish they will probably fail to accomplish their goal.
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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby idonno » Thu May 09, 2019 3:38 pm UTC

I have now read manufacturing consent and my questions have not changed. In fact, it is my opinion that the issues discussed in that book back up my questions.

1.3 acknowledges that it is more expensive to report if you don’t just take information from sources which are presumed credible and explains how the government currently takes advantage of this to provide their version of “credible” information to the media
1.2 Blatantly points out massive issues caused by using advertisers for revenue.

So if it costs more and one of your revenue streams works counter to your goal, how will you pay for it?


There are several instances in the book where a small fraction of informed people are unable to make a difference so you do need mainstream adoption of this practice. You need some mechanism to get from a few people being better informed to a large percentage of the population which means you have to overcome the biases that exist in the majority of the population. As manufacturing consent put it, “In the category of supportive factors, we find, first of all, elemental patriotism, the overwhelming wish to think well of ourselves, our institutions, and our leaders. We see ourselves as basically good and decent in personal life, so it must be that our institutions function in accordance with the same benevolent intent, an argument that is often persuasive even though it is a transparent non sequitur. The patriotic premise is reinforced by the belief that "we the people" rule, a central principle of the system of indoctrination from early childhood, but also one with little merit, as an analysis of the social and political system will quickly reveal. There are also real advantages in conformity beyond the re-wards and privilege that it yields.”
“But a critical analysis of American institutions, the way they function domestically and their international operations, must meet far higher standards; in fact, standards are often imposed that can barely be met in the natural sciences. One has to work hard, to produce evidence that is credible, to construct serious arguments, to present extensive documentation-all tasks that are superfluous as long as one remains within the presuppositional framework of the doctrinal consensus.”
This is the level of bias you are up against. So I will ask again how does your solution address this?

If you cannot provide any idea of how your proposal even begins to overcome these issues, I will continue to think that it won't work.

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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby Chen » Thu May 09, 2019 3:40 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:No, the first step is understanding the problems. The organizations are created in response to specific problems, not the general existence of problems. It's not an all or nothing process - a small group of people can create an organization now, but unless they understand what they are trying to accomplish they will probably fail to accomplish their goal.


But you already proposed the two above mentioned thing as the solution to the problem. Why do we need to go back and argue or discuss the problem again? Im saying, yeah I agree with your solutions. Lets get them implemented. How do we do that?

Seriously what am I missing here?

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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby Thesh » Thu May 09, 2019 3:42 pm UTC

What you are missing is that there has been no discussion of the problem.
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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby Chen » Thu May 09, 2019 3:51 pm UTC

So what were the proposed solutions for? I thought we were talking about combating fake news and other problems with the current mainstream media?

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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby maybeagnostic » Fri May 10, 2019 12:23 pm UTC

Chen wrote:I thought we were talking about combating fake news and other problems with the current mainstream media?
Except when you actually get down to the details, you'll find there is very little agreement on what the actual problem is and therefore no understanding what needs to be done to actually solve it.
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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby ivnja » Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:49 am UTC

The first Democratic primary debate (parts 1 and 2) is in the books.

I didn't go into last night with strong feelings about any of the candidates, and honestly my biggest impression coming out of two nights of this is that the massive "debate" format does a huge disservice to the whole field. I spent a lot of tonight in particular being increasingly frustrated by all of the interruptions, shouting over each other, and ignoring the moderators, and I feel like it overshadowed what could have been an opportunity to actually learn something about policy positions. I don't understand why the Democratic Party would go with a format that encourages all this sniping right off the bat when most of the country (myself included) knows very little about most of the candidates and could really benefit from hearing what they're running on.

I also don't understand why NBC kept all ten mics hot the whole time. They could have solved the biggest problems by only turning on the mic of whichever candidate has been called on for a particular question. It was probably in the agreement between the network and the party, though?

tl;dr - If your event to highlight your candidates makes viewers hate them all, it's maybe not a good event.
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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby ObsessoMom » Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:34 am UTC

ivnja wrote:I also don't understand why NBC kept all ten mics hot the whole time. They could have solved the biggest problems by only turning on the mic of whichever candidate has been called on for a particular question. It was probably in the agreement between the network and the party, though?


Yes, I thought, "How hard can it be to make only the mic of the recognized person hot, for thirty seconds, and if they can't finish their thought within that amount of time, too bad for them--they'll be cut off. And anyone trying to interrupt will actually have to walk over and push someone away from the only hot mic."

But considering that NBC couldn't even manage to turn off the control room mics, perhaps I am not appreciating the difficulty of only turning on one candidate's mic at a time.

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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby JudeMorrigan » Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:48 pm UTC

The problem there is that 30 seconds isn't enough time for more than a useless soundbite. Really, there were just too danged many people in the debate(s).

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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby ivnja » Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:07 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:But considering that NBC couldn't even manage to turn off the control room mics, perhaps I am not appreciating the difficulty of only turning on one candidate's mic at a time.

Andrew Yang is claiming that his mic was cut for part of the debate, and video clips of him trying to interject without anything being heard seem to support that. NBC denies it, of course. Assuming it was off, I wonder if it was a tech issue like the control room gaffe or if they were cutting some mics for portions.
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Re: 2020 Presidency Campaign for the Future

Postby reval » Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:21 pm UTC

idonno wrote: a small fraction of informed people are unable to make a difference so you do need mainstream adoption

Holding information out of the mainstream is certainly a main modus operendi for social control.

Mere publication is easier than in the days of paper, but the gatekeepers' elimination of all alternative perspectives from a mainstream view is even easier than that. The publication and discussion of alternate ideas within subcultures can still be worthwhile, but no one should be under any illusions that this can affect the mainstrean - unless and until the powers-that-be show enough signs of weakness that they can be shoved aside.

The preparation of alternatives for that opportunity is worthwhile.


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