Trump presidency

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ucim
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:03 pm UTC

trpmb6 wrote:I'd be perfectly happy with the democrats impeaching him and ending up with a president Pence.
...who as his first action would likely pardon Trump and that would be the end of that.
edit: He can't pardon an impeached president: (Article 2, section 2)
"....and he shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment. [...]"

second edit: ... but he can resign when impeachment becomes almost certain, and remain eligible for pardon by Pence.

No, impeachment would be the worst outcome. If we want to get to the bottom of Trump, and ensure that, to use his own words, "there must be punishment" for any guilty parties, he needs to be replaced by somebody with morals, ethics, brains, and backbone. This can only happen in 2020. Meanwhile, we're in for an ugly ride.

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Last edited by ucim on Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:58 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby morriswalters » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:15 pm UTC

sardia wrote:I read that as Trump being the killer who has a badge, and Mueller is the attorney.
Close enough for government work, as they say. The poster shows his lack of knowledge about the Saturday Night Massacre and why Robert Bork was never a Supreme.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:16 pm UTC

Honestly I don't care that much if Trump is found guilty and then pardoned. As long as politicians understand this was a terrible choice for a candidate and president and actively work against it in the future, and as long as he's not in a position to make decisions that people's lives, I'm happy. Anything else is an added bonus.

Edit:
morriswalters wrote:
sardia wrote:I read that as Trump being the killer who has a badge, and Mueller is the attorney.
Close enough for government work, as they say. The poster shows his lack of knowledge about the Saturday Night Massacre and why Robert Bork was never a Supreme.

Am I "the poster" in this? I'm not sure I'm clear on what you're trying to say.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby trpmb6 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:21 pm UTC

Speaking of ugly ride.

The DNC and RNC have finally submitted their FEC filings for June.

DNC Report:
Spoiler:
6. (a) Cash on hand, January 1, 2017
    (b) Cash on hand at Beginning of Reporting Period 7694342.74
    (c) Total Receipts (from line 19) 5500141.98
    (d) Subtotal (6(b) + 6(c) for A, 6(a) + 6(c) for B) 13194484.72
7. Total Disbursements 5702049.38
8. Cash on Hand at Close of Reporting Period 7492435.34
9. Debts and Obligations Owed TO the Committee 0
    Itemize all on SCHEDULE C or SCHEDULE D
10. Debts and Obligations Owed BY the Committee 3285691.55
    Itemize all on SCHEDULE C or SCHEDULE D


RNC Report:
Spoiler:
6. (a) Cash on hand, January 1, 2017
    (b) Cash on hand at Beginning of Reporting Period 41832036.98
    (c) Total Receipts (from line 19) 13504414.88
    (d) Subtotal (6(b) + 6(c) for A, 6(a) + 6(c) for B) 55336451.86
7. Total Disbursements 10629234.35
8. Cash on Hand at Close of Reporting Period 44707217.51
9. Debts and Obligations Owed TO the Committee 0
    Itemize all on SCHEDULE C or SCHEDULE D
10. Debts and Obligations Owed BY the Committee 0
    Itemize all on SCHEDULE C or SCHEDULE D


The RNC is trouncing the DNC in fundraising. RNC has 44.7 million in cash on hand with no debt obligations. DNC has 7.5 million in cash on hand with 3.3 million in debt obligations.

Based on the various articles I've read, it seems like some of the DNC's woes are due to big donors looking elsewhere for their cash (whether it be starting their own PAC or donating to someone else's). RNC is probably doing well because the grassroots is still fired up about the win. RNC set a fundraising record for June of a non-presidential election year.

I'm guessing this is why the DNC released their Papa-John's-esque new slogan.. Washington Post link here
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:22 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:As long as politicians understand this was a terrible choice for a candidate and president and actively work against it in the future

My recollection is that the GOP politicians were very much against him from the start, and seemed pretty horrified when he ended up being their candidate. The *voters* need to realise this.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:29 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Honestly I don't care that much if Trump is found guilty and then pardoned.
It says to the world that this is ok: You can purchase the presidency and then sell the country, pocketing the profit yourself, and get away with it. This is normal. This is the way things are done now. If you are confident you'll be pardoned by the next incoming president, you can do anything you like.

Fill in your own future of a country led by a supreme leader who is effectively above the law.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:17 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:I'd be perfectly happy with the democrats impeaching him and ending up with a president Pence.
...who as his first action would likely pardon Trump and that would be the end of that.

No, impeachment would be the worst outcome. If we want to get to the bottom of Trump, and ensure that, to use his own words, "there must be punishment" for any guilty parties, he needs to be replaced by somebody with morals, ethics, brains, and backbone. This can only happen in 2020. Meanwhile, we're in for an ugly ride.

Jose


There will never be any punishment. Trump can pardon his administration (including himself) on his last day of office, whenever that happens to be. Presidential pardons are irreversible.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:28 pm UTC

Sean Spicer resigns. And I say best of luck to him. This man did not seem to be happy in his position.

I do think that Spicer was better for the country than anyone else in Team Trump. But its clear that Huckabee-Sanders works better with Trump's style of governance (lying out the ass and spinning the truth with a straight face).
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby morriswalters » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:33 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Am I "the poster" in this? I'm not sure I'm clear on what you're trying to say.
Yes. This is the TL;DR version. Nixon tells the Attorney General to fire the Special Prosecutor. The AG refuses and resigns. Repeat until you reach Robert Bork who does finally does the deed. The event was tipped off by the discovery of the existence of the tapes and Nixon's assertion of executive privilege to prevent their use in the Hearings. It came down to a matter of trust, who was more trustworthy, Nixon or the Special Prosecutor. Elliot Richardson was the AG. He chose the process that had selected Archibald Cox and he must have trusted Cox. He resigned to protect Cox's investigation. This is the genesis of the modern Special Prosecutor. And is one of the reasons Bork never became a Supreme. The have long memories in Washington.

Now look at the positioning of the parties in this case. Trump can't fire Mueller directly. Sessions would have to do it. And Trump's lawyers know this. Session's says he won't. So Trump, in effect discredits Session's, and thus Session's choice of Mueller. If you can't attack the message, attack the messenger.

There is even a name for it in Court, it's called cross examination. This all follows from your response to my original point.
Zohar wrote:This is a special prosecutor essentially appointed by the president himself. If Trump really wanted to he could order Sessions to fire Rosenstein until he gets a deputy that will agree to fire Mueller. Trump (presumably) trusted Sessions and Sessions (presumably) trusted Rosenstein, and Rosenstein made his choice. It was not enforced from an outside agency on Trump and this investigation. The integrity of the person should definitely be at question! BEFORE YOU FUCKING HIRE THEM.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Quercus » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:04 pm UTC

Why the hell does the head of the executive branch still have the power to pardon anyway? (more fetishizing of the constitution making it impossible to change I'm guessing). Seems like an absolutely massive separation of powers fail - issues of justice should be the domain of the judiciary.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:11 pm UTC

See my edit, top of page. The president cannot pardon in cases of impeachment. Article 2, section 2:
"....and he shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment. [...]"

Sorry, my bad.

Edit: But he can pardon an ex-president who resigned (Nixon) under the threat of impeachment.

Sorry, I thought I was wrong, but it turned out I was mistaken.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby DaBigCheez » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:21 pm UTC

Quercus wrote:Why the hell does the head of the executive branch still have the power to pardon anyway? (more fetishizing of the constitution making it impossible to change I'm guessing). Seems like an absolutely massive separation of powers fail - issues of justice should be the domain of the judiciary.

Checks-and-balances fetishization, I would think. Judiciary running rampant? Congress can change the laws, president can pardon people.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:28 pm UTC

Quercus wrote:Why the hell does the head of the executive branch still have the power to pardon anyway? (more fetishizing of the constitution making it impossible to change I'm guessing). Seems like an absolutely massive separation of powers fail - issues of justice should be the domain of the judiciary.


Honestly, given that the USA has a bigger prison population than fucking China, our Judiciary is exactly running rampant. And no, that's not "prison population per capita". We literally have a bigger prison population than all of China's prison population, despite having like 1/5th the population.

So much for the USA being a bastion of Christian Values and forgiveness. Land of the free? We're more like land of the imprisoned.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:45 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
Quercus wrote:Why the hell does the head of the executive branch still have the power to pardon anyway? (more fetishizing of the constitution making it impossible to change I'm guessing). Seems like an absolutely massive separation of powers fail - issues of justice should be the domain of the judiciary.


Honestly, given that the USA has a bigger prison population than fucking China, our Judiciary is exactly running rampant. And no, that's not "prison population per capita". We literally have a bigger prison population than all of China's prison population, despite having like 1/5th the population.

So much for the USA being a bastion of Christian Values and forgiveness. Land of the free? We're more like land of the imprisoned.

Don't blame the judiciary when Congress is the one who scared everyone into making tough on crime laws. Judges don't have a choice when mandatory minimums and drug laws force their hand. In addition, the states jail the bulk of the population, not the federal government. It all comes down to the legislatures fault. And the people for swallowing their lies, and giving in to fear.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby trpmb6 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:58 pm UTC

Say what you want about the politics of Scaramucci. The man is very sharp at the podium. He is well spoken, calm, very articulate and hell, I think If the guy talked for a half hour he might be able to convince me to sleep with him. The guy is a natural up there.

Is anyone else watching right now?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:07 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
Zohar wrote:Am I "the poster" in this? I'm not sure I'm clear on what you're trying to say.
Yes.


Well excuse me for not living up to your standards.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby trpmb6 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:27 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
morriswalters wrote:
Zohar wrote:Am I "the poster" in this? I'm not sure I'm clear on what you're trying to say.
Yes.


Well excuse me for not living up to your standards.



Too bad Mitch McConnell can't come out and say this...
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby RCT Bob » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:43 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Sean Spicer resigns. And I say best of luck to him. This man did not seem to be happy in his position.

I do think that Spicer was better for the country than anyone else in Team Trump. But its clear that Huckabee-Sanders works better with Trump's style of governance (lying out the ass and spinning the truth with a straight face).


Honestly, despite Spicer's occasional stumbling performances, I'm just impressed he lasted as long as he did. It can't be easy having to deal with the media and news outlets which your boss ridicules and flames on a daily basis, while also having to somehow make sense of the incoherent ramblings of your boss who frequently raves and tweets nonsensical statements out into the world without any sort of discussion with you.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Liri » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:32 pm UTC

RCT Bob wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Sean Spicer resigns. And I say best of luck to him. This man did not seem to be happy in his position.

I do think that Spicer was better for the country than anyone else in Team Trump. But its clear that Huckabee-Sanders works better with Trump's style of governance (lying out the ass and spinning the truth with a straight face).


Honestly, despite Spicer's occasional stumbling performances, I'm just impressed he lasted as long as he did. It can't be easy having to deal with the media and news outlets which your boss ridicules and flames on a daily basis, while also having to somehow make sense of the incoherent ramblings of your boss who frequently raves and tweets nonsensical statements out into the world without any sort of discussion with you.

Yeah, like KE said, she's much more in-tune with the level of deception needed to work in the current administration. Which is pretty spooky. Spicer's discomfort was vaguely reassuring.

And like sardia said, "sources familiar with the situation" is scraping the bottom of the barrel.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby morriswalters » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:31 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
morriswalters wrote:
Zohar wrote:Am I "the poster" in this? I'm not sure I'm clear on what you're trying to say.
Yes.


Well excuse me for not living up to your standards.
I don't have any standards for you to live up to. It would be pointless since there is no way to enforce them. However I have plenty of memories about Nixon. I remember being glad it was all over when he flew out on Marine One.

Quercus wrote:Why the hell does the head of the executive branch still have the power to pardon anyway?
I have no idea. Mostly tradition I suppose. But while you can cite pardons of some as abuse, it is often a mercy to some of those people who have needed, and gotten it. Justice and fairness are not always aligned.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:02 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:I don't have any standards for you to live up to. It would be pointless since there is no way to enforce them. However I have plenty of memories about Nixon. I remember being glad it was all over when he flew out on Marine One.

Well in that case I apologize for being born eight years after that happened and not living in the US until 40 years after that happened.

To make this clear - you don't have to be a condescending asshole to someone who doesn't happen to know a part of history you lived through. You could be happy you have the opportunity to teach someone something they didn't know before.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Quercus » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:20 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:But while you can cite pardons of some as abuse, it is often a mercy to some of those people who have needed, and gotten it. Justice and fairness are not always aligned.


Agreed. The trouble with the presedential pardon is that it's simultaneously too powerful (in the level of abuse it allows, checked only by custom and the rather distant threat of impeachment) and not powerful enough (in that it only helps a tiny proportion of those who need such mercy).

Honestly if you're relying on an ugly hack like the pardon, rather than baking mercy and fairness into the justice system itself, something has gone very badly wrong.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:51 pm UTC

Having it that the Senate could overturn a pardon with a 2/3 majority vote (same as a veto) would probably help a lot to prevent egregious abuses.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:32 pm UTC

I just want to say... that when everyone talks about the new Communications Director Scaramucci, I keep thinking of this guy instead:

Spoiler:
http://samuraijack.wikia.com/wiki/Scaramouche

Image
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:30 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Having it that the Senate could overturn a pardon with a 2/3 majority vote (same as a veto) would probably help a lot to prevent egregious abuses.

I mean, technically a majority in 3/4 of state legislatures can overturn any pardon.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby morriswalters » Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:34 am UTC

Zohar wrote:To make this clear - you don't have to be a condescending asshole to someone who doesn't happen to know a part of history you lived through.
I'm sorry and I accept the criticism of of being a condescending. The asshole part is why I don't quote you directly. Because from my POV you are quick to offense and I want to give you a chance to ignore me. However it doesn't seem to be working so I will continue to read your posts since you have a distinct point of view, but I'll leave you alone.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:31 am UTC

I don't rely on quotes to look at posts related to me, I just read the thread I participate in. The easy solution is learning to tell people new things without mocking them. :roll:
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Diadem » Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:27 am UTC

Quercus wrote:
morriswalters wrote:But while you can cite pardons of some as abuse, it is often a mercy to some of those people who have needed, and gotten it. Justice and fairness are not always aligned.


Agreed. The trouble with the presedential pardon is that it's simultaneously too powerful (in the level of abuse it allows, checked only by custom and the rather distant threat of impeachment) and not powerful enough (in that it only helps a tiny proportion of those who need such mercy).

Honestly if you're relying on an ugly hack like the pardon, rather than baking mercy and fairness into the justice system itself, something has gone very badly wrong.

I think that if we're at the point where presidential self-pardons are a thing, we're already so deep into "might makes right" territory, that whatever the laws says is essentially irrelevant.

Interestingly, a self-pardon isn't even the scariest possible abuse of the presidential pardon. The president can pardon anything (except impeachment). He could have his political opponents assassinated and then immediately pardon both himself and the assassins.

I wouldn't even call this a defect in the US constitution. The law cannot protect against that kind of abuse. The institutions that make the laws can always corrupt them, there's simply no way around that. If a political leader of a country wants to undo democracy, laws are never going to be enough to stop them. Which is why democracy needs strong institutions and traditions to survive.

Which is a real worry because the US doesn't seem to be doing very well in that department. It's democratic foundations are poorly designed (two-party system, presidential system, a blatantly political judiciary, surprisingly unbalanced checks-and-balances, etc) and the hyper-partisanship of recent decades has made things even worse.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:56 am UTC

I just realized that while impeachment is proof against pardon, resigning in the face of possible impeachment (Nixon) isn't. So, Trump can keep doubling down until it looks like he will almost certainly be impeached. He can then resign and allow Pence to pardon him.

I suppose I wasn't right originally, but I wasn't really wrong either.

LaserGuy wrote:Having it that the Senate could overturn a pardon with a 2/3 majority vote (same as a veto) would probably help a lot to prevent egregious abuses.
Probably not. It would just clog the senate.

Quercus wrote:Honestly if you're relying on an ugly hack like the pardon, rather than baking mercy and fairness into the justice system itself, something has gone very badly wrong.
Ninja'd by Diadem, but... Something is horribly wrong, but only insomuch as no governing system is perfect, and great abuse hides beneath imperfection. At some point, one of the tools will be the final word. There is no way to guarantee that that final word is correct. Nonetheless, pardon is that tool.

Thesh wrote:I mean, technically a majority in 3/4 of state legislatures can overturn any pardon.
You mean by amending the constitution? Ex post facto?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby morriswalters » Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:11 am UTC

Trumps attempts to pardon himself would cause a Constitutional Crisis. In the end the courts, assuming that civilization doesn't come apart, would have to answer the question of legality of self pardons. It's ground that has never been covered.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Prefanity » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:11 am UTC

I don't think Trump is getting impeached (maybe in his second term), but if he were to be, Pence would just pardon him.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby RCT Bob » Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:21 am UTC

Prefanity wrote:I don't think Trump is getting impeached (maybe in his second term), but if he were to be, Pence would just pardon him.


I doubt that. I don't think Pence would have a need to keep Trump as an ally in that case, I'd consider it likely Pence would just throw Trump under the bus in that case in an attempt to save his own skin. I mean, Pence is an idiot, as evidenced by him touching NASA equipment that should not be touched just because Rubio dared him to, but sticking his neck out for Trump after the latter's been impeached? I doubt it.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:28 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:I just want to say... that when everyone talks about the new Communications Director Scaramucci, I keep thinking of this guy instead:

Spoiler:
http://samuraijack.wikia.com/wiki/Scaramouche

Image


Not Scaramanga, then?

2015: Akie Abe addresses Great Falls Elementary in Virginia in English

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Maybe she was afraid if she so much as said "hello" to him things would escalate to the point where her husband was obliged to cut Trump's head off with his heirloom katana to restore honour, or something.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby DavidSh » Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:38 pm UTC

ucim wrote:I just realized that while impeachment is proof against pardon, resigning in the face of possible impeachment (Nixon) isn't. So, Trump can keep doubling down until it looks like he will almost certainly be impeached. He can then resign and allow Pence to pardon him.


My understanding was that pardons are always good against federal criminal charges, that is, they can keep you out of prison, and from having to pay fines. The exception for impeachment just means that a pardon can't keep somebody from being removed from office by impeachment. Resignation shouldn't be ever be necessary to avoid prison, just to avoid the sorry spectacle of a trial by Congress. Note that a lot more federal judges have been impeached than presidents.

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sardia
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:44 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:I just want to say... that when everyone talks about the new Communications Director Scaramucci, I keep thinking of this guy instead:

Spoiler:
http://samuraijack.wikia.com/wiki/Scaramouche

Image


Not Scaramanga, then?

2015: Akie Abe addresses Great Falls Elementary in Virginia in English

2017: Abe was seated next to Donald Trump at dinner during the G20 summit in Hamburg earlier this month. As Trump explained during his interview with the New York Times on Wednesday: “She’s a terrific woman, but doesn’t speak English … Like, not ‘hello’.” So, in fact, they said nothing to each other for nearly two hours.

Maybe she was afraid if she so much as said "hello" to him things would escalate to the point where her husband was obliged to cut Trump's head off with his heirloom katana to restore honour, or something.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... ent-trump/

However, as with so many stories about Trump that go viral online, the reality is more nuanced than the Internet's fast-moving theories. The question of how proficient Abe is at English became a guessing game among Japanese journalists and diplomats in Washington, as well as some Japan hands in U.S. think tanks.
Though no one could say for certain what her fluency level was, most agreed that what had been characterized as a possible political snub had more likely been a convergence of Abe's limited English abilities and a desire not to misspeak.
It is, of course, false that Abe speaks “zero” English. At the very least, it's unthinkable that the Japanese first lady, who previously worked at Dentsu, Japan's largest international public relations company, doesn't know the word “hello” — even if she may not have said it to Trump at the G-20 dinner.
But it's clear in the video of her 2014 keynote address that Abe was consulting a script and, even then, occasionally stumbling over a word or two. Abe has regularly accompanied her husband to Washington through his three stints as prime minister, and footage from her past visits shows that she has almost always used an interpreter when in the United States.
In 2015, she and then-first lady Michelle Obama visited Great Falls Elementary in Virginia, where they were welcomed by students who were part of the school's Japanese immersion program. While at the school, Abe used an interpreter and addressed the students in Japanese.
Asian English proficiency, is not as high as people think. In short, this story is stupid.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:53 pm UTC

TIL pardons can be issued even before guilt is established:

The Guardian wrote:US President Donald Trump has insisted he has the "complete power" to pardon people, amid reports he is considering presidential pardons for family members, aides and even himself.

A Democratic Party spokesman has called the reports "extremely disturbing".

The US authorities are probing possible collusion between the Trump team and Russia. Intelligence agencies think Russia tried to help Mr Trump to power. Russia denies this, and the president says there was no collusion.

The Washington Post reported on Thursday that Mr Trump and his team were looking at ways to pardon people close to him. Presidents can pardon people before guilt is established or even before the person is charged with a crime.

Describing the reports as disturbing, Senator Mark Warner, a Democrat who sits on the House Intelligence Committee, said "pardoning any individuals who may have been involved would be crossing a fundamental line".

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Thesh
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:55 pm UTC

Yeah, Ford gave Nixon a general pardon for all crimes he may have committed while President.
Summum ius, summa iniuria.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Liri » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:43 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Yeah, Ford gave Nixon a general pardon for all crimes he may have committed while President.

That was still after the potential crimes happened (but before he would have been charged), so it's not the best example (nvm it probably is), but yeah.

It reminds me of His Dark Materials where the priest does his penance in advance of being sent out to assassinate someone.
There's a certain amount of freedom involved in cycling: you're self-propelled and decide exactly where to go. If you see something that catches your eye to the left, you can veer off there, which isn't so easy in a car, and you can't cover as much ground walking.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:48 pm UTC

I think that's exactly the same scenario the previous post is referring to?
Summum ius, summa iniuria.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Liri » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:53 pm UTC

No, I get that it's what President Pence would theoretically do, but it's not a perfect example of pardoning someone before they commit a crime.
There's a certain amount of freedom involved in cycling: you're self-propelled and decide exactly where to go. If you see something that catches your eye to the left, you can veer off there, which isn't so easy in a car, and you can't cover as much ground walking.


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