Page 26 of 219

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:23 am UTC
by eran_rathan
KnightExemplar wrote:
Then lets call them uneducated immigrants. Those with less than a high school diploma or equivalent. In any case, these (would-be) immigrants have a very low chance of positively affecting the USA.


You're not a huge fan of eating fresh produce, then? Who do you think picks most of it in the U.S. (hint: it's not Trump voters)?

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:25 am UTC
by sardia
Trump continues to write off more losses in newly leaked 2005 tax return.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/14/us/p ... taxes.html
The White House responded without even waiting for the show to air, issuing a statement that seemed to confirm the authenticity of the forms even as it defended Mr. Trump and assailed the network for publicizing them. “You know you are desperate for ratings when you are willing to violate the law to push a story about two pages of tax returns from over a decade ago,” the statement said.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:32 am UTC
by CorruptUser
iamspen wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Honest question: do you believe that an influx of low-skilled / unskilled laborers will improve the state of the USA today?


Is today the only day we're allowed to look at? Can we circle a date on our calendars a decade, two decades, 35 years from now? Because the fun fact about all these unskilled laborers is that they have kids, and if we do our job as a society and educate those kids properly, then the first generation that immigrates to the US absolutely does improve the state of the country.


And we could those kids anyway by increasing the number of university slots for foreign students, without having to support the parents at all. We can get those kids for free, since we don't have to spend the money on lower education and medicine and police and so forth. Well, that's actually wrong, we get paid to take those kids, considering that foreign exchange students typically pay full price for college. Really, I don't understand why we aren't encouraging foreign students with a passion, especially considering that it's basically giving our next generation connections to the middle-upper classes of the world while they basically pay us to spread our culture. Seriously, what's not to love about foreign students?

And we can do all this while being able to screen out which kids come in rather than having to take the bad with the good.

So your argument falls flat.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:54 am UTC
by Felstaff
DoIEvenNeedToSayThis wrote:
Geez, do the mods really accept posts like "you are a greedy, callous, piece of human garbage." now?

I remember years ago when XKCD was pretty sane and civil. This barely rates youtube comment quality. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

If you have a problem with a post, you can report it. Contrary to popular belief, mods don't use their $185-per-hour salary to moderate every single post; only the ones that are drawn to our attention.

Frankly, if the poster in question has argued well that the user indeed is a greedy, callous, piece of human garbage, then there's nothing wrong--nor has there ever been anything wrong--with calling someone a greedy, callous, piece of human garbage. You gosh-darned cunt*.

But you're correct, not even YouTube comments have been so offensive as calling someone a greedy, callous, piece of human garbage. That would be a new low; you wouldn't find a comment as base and demeaning as that on YouTube.

*as some people didn't get the reference, and assumed I was being anything but facetious.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:36 am UTC
by elasto
CorruptUser wrote:And we could those kids anyway by increasing the number of university slots for foreign students, without having to support the parents at all. We can get those kids for free, since we don't have to spend the money on lower education and medicine and police and so forth. Well, that's actually wrong, we get paid to take those kids, considering that foreign exchange students typically pay full price for college. Really, I don't understand why we aren't encouraging foreign students with a passion, especially considering that it's basically giving our next generation connections to the middle-upper classes of the world while they basically pay us to spread our culture. Seriously, what's not to love about foreign students?

This is why it was such insanity for the UK to include foreign students in their targets to reduce net migration numbers. It's harder to think of any migrant group more likely to be net contributors to your economy and society than young, healthy, highly-educated and highly-skilled workers (especially given the five-figure sum they pay in uni fees...)

Rather than be the frigging leaders they should have been, acting in the long-term interests of our country, we got political cowardice of the highest order, caring about nothing but the headline migration figures on front page of the Daily Mail.

Democracy should not only be about giving people what they want but what they need. Unfortunately you still have to get them to vote for it though.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:51 am UTC
by DoIEvenNeedToSayThis
If the quality bar your community shoots for is "You can still find youtube comments worst than what we accept!", then I really don't know what to say.

So consider this one voice, preparing for a rapid ban, letting you know that while you may think statements about another poster's status as human garbage are well argued, from the outside it reflects very poorly on those posters and the community that fosters them. I know that you're collectively angry about Trump and politics in general, but is this really the way you think you should be responding?

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:12 pm UTC
by iamspen
DoIEvenNeedToSayThis wrote:I know that you're collectively angry about Trump and politics in general, but is this really the way you think you should be responding?


To a political party (and its membership) that has morphed into an openly racist and xenophobic organization that now has a literal fascist at its head whose administration is, in a very literal sense, attempting to create a culture of doublethink while it unabashedly attempts to undermine the very concept of free and fair elections in order to disenfranchise the electorate and grab more power away from it while the legislative branch under the control of the same party willfully snuggles itself comfortably under that administration's thumb?

Yes. That is the way we should be responding.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:58 pm UTC
by gmalivuk
DoIEvenNeedToSayThis wrote:If the quality bar your community shoots for is "You can still find youtube comments worst than what we accept!", then I really don't know what to say.

So consider this one voice, preparing for a rapid ban, letting you know that while you may think statements about another poster's status as human garbage are well argued, from the outside it reflects very poorly on those posters and the community that fosters them. I know that you're collectively angry about Trump and politics in general, but is this really the way you think you should be responding?
I'm super sorry we hurt your fragile feelings, dipshit with two entire posts, but some of us have friends and loved ones and ourselves at risk of losingttheir homes or jobs or healthcare. Meanwhile others are saying it's fine if you shatter people's lives and split up their families, because to avoid fucking these people over would be ~unfair~ to some cousins who got fucked over in the past.

Also, we have occasional children who show up to whine about how we aren't being nice enough to collaborators defending the new regime.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:00 pm UTC
by Whizbang
RE: Human Garbage
Spoiler:
Image


RE: Tone policing
Spoiler:
Image


RE: Trump's tax returns
So, what does this mean? Honestly, it seems kinda meh, to me. The guy paid 38 million in taxes in 2005. That's a lot. I was expecting less. Most people, Trump supporters in particular, will see that as proof that Trump, despite his bluster, contributes to society. The flip side is that it is only 25% of his reported income, which is less than the average/expectation for people making more than one million per year. Also, this was over a decade ago. Where are the more recent ones?

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:10 pm UTC
by Thesh
It's only the front pages, so most detail is missing and there isn't anything interesting (conspiracy theories suggest that Trump leaked it as a distraction, which is fueled by the "Client Copy" stamp on the front page), but I think the big thing with respect to Trump's tax returns is that he is paying the AMT, which is going to be a big target of Republicans when they look to cut taxes on the rich. Without the AMT, he would have only paid a few percent.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:15 pm UTC
by Liri
I doubt we'll get the whole picture until/unless the returns get subpoenaed, as opposed to a trickle from random tax lawyers he's worked with who remember they've got a page or two saved on a floppy somewhere.


I bought a New Yorker subscription a few weeks ago. Their in-depth research articles are a welcome break from the short and hurried NYT editorials and op-eds, for instance. Here's one about his hotel deal in Azerbaijan.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:20 pm UTC
by Chen
Thesh wrote:It's only the front pages, so most detail is missing and there isn't anything interesting (conspiracy theories suggest that Trump leaked it as a distraction, which is fueled by the "Client Copy" stamp on the front page), but I think the big thing with respect to Trump's tax returns is that he is paying the AMT, which is going to be a big target of Republicans when they look to cut taxes on the rich. Without the AMT, he would have only paid a few percent.


Even without the tax returns that shouldn't be a surprise right? I have to imagine most politicians are going to be the ones paying the AMT anyways. There'll always be somewhat of a conflict of interest there in terms of repealing it since it disproportionately affects those who have more money (as it is intended to).

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:25 pm UTC
by Thesh
Correct, all that changes is we put some numbers on it. More interesting would be to see post-recession; he was taking a credit in New York that is only allowed if you make less than $500k. I'm curious how much of that is write-offs, and how much of that is just losses during the recession.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:37 pm UTC
by froghero
This thread is ostensibly about following and discussing the news about the Trump presidency, but in the last 24 hours it's turned into an echo chamber where outsiders are insulted and chased away, people with dissenting opinions are mocked and personally insulted, and long-time members with the most influence are encouraging the toxicity. I've been reading these fora a lot for the the past month and I had come to expect more from the people here, but it turns out it's still the internet.

KnightExemplar has been doing a great job tolerating the bullshit that has been thrown his way. He hasn't offered a solution to the immigration problem, but no one else has either. He's offered an interesting perspective that should be considered in a compromise over what the solution should be. Quantized has done a great job at remaining polite during the discussion, and The Great Hippo has been interesting to read. Everyone else has been on the spectrum from mildly rude to fairly insulting, except Thesh, who has been outright combative and vitriolic while contributing very little to the actual discussion.

While reading other parts of the fora, I got the impression that Felstaff and gmalivuk are reasonable people who do a decent job at both discussing intelligent points and moderating fairly, but in this instance I feel like both of you are persecuting a critical voice merely because they are an outsider and Thesh is an insider. The way you handle new visitors is important if you want your community to live and grow, the way you handle dissenting opinions is important if you actually value diversity, the way you discuss issues is important if you reason and logic, and the image you present to the world is important if you want the world to respect you.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:40 pm UTC
by Lazar
"US Defence Secretary James Mattis says climate change is already destabilising the world". I continue to think that Mattis is probably the most reasonable major figure in the administration. Donald just fell in love with his superficial Patton image.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:17 pm UTC
by Mutex
Yeah, I've no idea how Mattis managed to bag a position in Trump's government. He looks more and more out of place.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:28 pm UTC
by Thesh
Mutex wrote:Yeah, I've no idea how Mattis managed to bag a position in Trump's government. He looks more and more out of place.


Trump picked Mattis because his nickname is "Mad Dog" [citation needed].

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:32 pm UTC
by CorruptUser
Hey now, every group needs that one borderline insane guy that's only there to entertain the others.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:40 pm UTC
by Mutex
Shouldn't he be wearing a deerhunter hat then?

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:53 pm UTC
by Liri
The new national security adviser is also great, but he's "just" an adviser.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:55 pm UTC
by SecondTalon
Locking thread until I have time to figure out what is going on that has so many reports.

Which isn't to say "Stop reporting". Not at all. Keep reporting things. I'll sort it out later.



ninjamodedit: heh, ST has actually just locked the thread moments before departing on his 3-month vacation to Aruba. Cheeky bugger. Well, looks like this thread'll be locked for the time being. I suggest drawing a line, requesting all you goatfuckers keep it civil, and carry on tearing into each other's arguments, without resorting to ad hominem. Y'all're smart enough to pick the weaknesses in arguments alone; go for it. (when ST or Zamfir deal with the flood of reports and feel it's right to unlock the thread, of course).

Stop telling people about my vacation plans! - ST

ah, bollocks, I just unlocked the thread. I honestly thought you'd gone to live on an island somewhere.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:05 pm UTC
by Felstaff
Unlocking this thread, you gosh-darned cunts. (reference).

  1. Now, Thesh, that was rather mean of you to call whoever a piece of human garbage, and uncalled for.
  2. Everyone else; keep it civil, be exemplary, and don't let other people's bullshit go unchallenged.
  3. New guys who registered solely to whine that News & Articles can be a fractious place full of meanieheads: it's fucking N&A, not Serious Business. It's been a wasteland of catfighting for years. But anyway, consider this an unofficial warning as you failed to stay on topic with your first posts. Bad form.
  4. Felstaff, you should have disapproved both of those posts for being off-topic. But instead you approved one, fully in the knowledge that it was unrelated to the Trump presidency, and facetiously engaged with it. Keep it out of the thread next time.
froghero wrote:
The way you handle new visitors is important if you want your community to live and grow

That's cute, sweetcheeks. I'll bring it up at my next pay review.

Now, the rest of you pricks fucking act civil towards one another, you filthy effluential societal canker-sores!!

Continue, and the next post better be a fair and unbiased rational view of the doings-and-transpirings of one of, to put it in his own words, the most popular, successful, and well-loved presidents in living memory.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:45 pm UTC
by pogrmman
Well, that was... interesting to say the least.

I don't check the forum for like two days, and there is a big flurry of activity that gets kind of uncivil to the point that the thread got locked.

Anyway, back on topic.

I do like Mattis as a security advisor. He seems level headed and civil from what I can tell.

In other news, there is going to be a ruling on the new immigration order.

Also, whatever happened about Flynn's Turkey connections and lobbying? I'm suprised that it seems to have mostly disappeared from the news. It seems to be really important. Much like the CIA leak stuff, which also seems to have vanished...

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:48 pm UTC
by HES
pogrmman wrote:Also, whatever happened about...

Something else happened to distract everyone.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:51 pm UTC
by Soupspoon
Felstaff wrote:Continue, and the next post better be a fair and unbiased rational view of the doings-and-transpirings of one of, to put it in his own words, the most popular, successful, and well-loved presidents in living memory.


Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva?

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:01 pm UTC
by pogrmman
HES wrote:
pogrmman wrote:Also, whatever happened about...

Something else happened to distract everyone.



Not just here, but in general.

I mean, I haven't looked that hard, but it doesn't seem like I've seen any newer articles about it beyond the "this happened, administration denies knowing about it, paperwork is filed retroactively".

I haven't seen anything discussing the consequences and fallout of it it much depth.

It seems to me like I should be seeing articles about that though -- the initial news only came out like a week ago.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:07 pm UTC
by sardia
pogrmman wrote:
HES wrote:
pogrmman wrote:Also, whatever happened about...

Something else happened to distract everyone.



Not just here, but in general.

I mean, I haven't looked that hard, but it doesn't seem like I've seen any newer articles about it beyond the "this happened, administration denies knowing about it, paperwork is filed retroactively".

I haven't seen anything discussing the consequences and fallout of it it much depth.

It seems to me like I should be seeing articles about that though -- the initial news only came out like a week ago.
he means in general. Trump always does this, if he doesn't like how something is going, he'll cry wolf about Something else and then cry wolf about a third thing and then keep going until the 4th or 5th thing was disproven and nobody remembers that Trump still don't release his tax returns.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:45 pm UTC
by pogrmman
Spoiler:
sardia wrote:
pogrmman wrote:
HES wrote:
pogrmman wrote:Also, whatever happened about...

Something else happened to distract everyone.



Not just here, but in general.

I mean, I haven't looked that hard, but it doesn't seem like I've seen any newer articles about it beyond the "this happened, administration denies knowing about it, paperwork is filed retroactively".

I haven't seen anything discussing the consequences and fallout of it it much depth.

It seems to me like I should be seeing articles about that though -- the initial news only came out like a week ago.
he means in general. Trump always does this, if he doesn't like how something is going, he'll cry wolf about Something else and then cry wolf about a third thing and then keep going until the 4th or 5th thing was disproven and nobody remembers that Trump still don't release his tax returns.


Yeah. It's just kind of annoying that the only recent pieces I can find on it are just Trump bashing pieces with little beyond that. I mean, I'm not a fan of him, I didn't vote for him, and I can't say I agree with anything he has done so far.

However, I'm also sick of reading all the pieces constantly parroting about how bad of a president he is and how America made a terrible mistake. They never offer any solutions, and they basically just go in spirals complaining. I mean, it's hard to come up with a solid plan to loosen the grip the Republican Party has (not that every Republican is bad! -- I even voted for a couple of them) on the federal government.

It seems like what really needs to be worked on is the urban/rural divide. Heck, what was being said earlier in the thread about the groups not intersecting much is true. As a pretty liberal guy from the suburbs going to a small school in the rural Midwest that prides itself on its inclusitivity and diversity, I can see the divide right before my own eyes. There are two sort of "bubbles" of people in this town -- those associated with the school (generally liberal and originally from cities), and those not associated with the school (generally conservative and from here). The two groups both respect each other, but they also seem to stay within their own boundaries. Partially, it has to come from the fact that most of the interactions of the professors and other staff at the school happens here, but I also believe it is partly cultural and political. Sometimes, there's a fair amount of tension between the two groups.

Even on a larger scale, there really isn't much crossover between the "red" and the "blue" groups. In online media, there isn't a whole lot of crossover between "red" and "blue". Also, while this is entirely anecdotal, it seems that people with similar political beliefs tend to know others like them -- I've seen groups of people on both sides that are pretty much entirely distinct with little overlap.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:28 am UTC
by DoIEvenNeedToSayThis
For Gmal and the rest of the "children whining about our meanness" crew:

Keep yelling then if you think it'll help. I think you're sadly mistaken, because when I see a bunch of "Team Basic Human Decency" folks yelling epithets at the only person in thread who is remaining decent, for expressing an opinion that is in no way fringe or unreasonable, it looks a lot like you proving his point for him. You can't even tolerate a small difference in culture on *this board* without abusing and banning people who don't fall in line.

The point of my few posts is more to the other silent readers here to note that others also disagree that this is the best way to go about making things better, and don't approve of your tactics.

My last message to the aforementioned Mods and Their Friends crew is that this is the sound of your longtime supporters (6 years reading here and 3 presidential votes cast for democrats from me) leaving your movement because you've turned into something as bad as the things we're fighting against. I know, I know, you don't give a fuck. So have fun yelling to an empty audience. Because myself and other people who think the same way are quietly heading for the exits and looking for other groups to join.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:44 am UTC
by Mutex
DoIEvenNeedToSayThis wrote:You can't even tolerate a small difference in culture on *this board* without abusing and banning people who don't fall in line.

Name one time that's happened.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:57 am UTC
by SecondTalon
DoIEvenNeedToSayThis wrote:For Gmal and the rest of the "children whining about our meanness" crew:

Jesus fucking Christ, it wasn't even a couple hours.

THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:25 am UTC
by SecondTalon
I still don't even know where to begin.

If you posted in the last two pages and aren't me, funny colored name or not, I'm probably disappointed in you. So I'm just going to leave it at that.

Do the fuck better or get the fuck off this messageboard.

DoIEvenNeedToSayThis,

Do I even need to say this?

Unless you seriously expect me to believe that a Canadian with a German e-mail address has been voting in US elections.... you're a sockpuppet. I don't know who, but I've got a pretty short list.

Now we can leave it as is, and that'll be the end of it. Or you can post again, and I'll just ban everyone I suspect of being you and be done with the fucking thing.

Last thing for everyone - fuck up again, you're gone. I'm not even going to read enough to care if you're in any way justified, you're just gone.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:40 am UTC
by sardia
Ok, let's try this with an easy headline.
Despite Trump's incompetence, not everyone is a fucking dumbass on his team. Jeff Sessions knows what he's doing and he plays rough.
http://www.npr.org/2017/03/27/521680263 ... ding-funds
The Justice Department is following through on an executive order to withhold as much as $4.1 billion in federal grants from so-called "sanctuary cities," generally defined as places where local law enforcement limit their cooperation with federal authorities on immigration enforcement.

Attorney General Jeff Sessions' appearance at the daily White House briefing is a signal that President Trump wants to move on to one of the issues he's most comfortable talking about — illegal immigration — and to shift the conversation away from health care, after his failure last week to get the GOP alternative to replace and repeal the Affordable Care Act through Congress.


I don't understand how the Democrats let Jeff Sessions slide in so easily. Was Warren the only one who knew he was a Jim Crow hardliner?

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:48 am UTC
by Liri
sardia wrote:Ok, let's try this with an easy headline.
Despite Drumpf's incompetence, not everyone is a fucking dumbass on his team. Jeff Sessions knows what he's doing and he plays rough.
http://www.npr.org/2017/03/27/521680263 ... ding-funds
The Justice Department is following through on an executive order to withhold as much as $4.1 billion in federal grants from so-called "sanctuary cities," generally defined as places where local law enforcement limit their cooperation with federal authorities on immigration enforcement.

Attorney General Jeff Sessions' appearance at the daily White House briefing is a signal that President Drumpf wants to move on to one of the issues he's most comfortable talking about — illegal immigration — and to shift the conversation away from health care, after his failure last week to get the GOP alternative to replace and repeal the Affordable Care Act through Congress.


I don't understand how the Democrats let Jeff Sessions slide in so easily. Was Warren the only one who knew he was a Jim Crow hardliner?

Yeah, I don't know why the Democrats threw their weight behind trying to deny DeVos rather than Sessions. Education's important, sure, but the AG can do a lot of damage all over the board. Did you see the Colorado plan to immediately switch everyone's weed licenses to medical from recreational if he ever turns his sights on them?

Invoking that "can't criticize a fellow Senator" rule was complete BS. Really quite remarkable. There might be a couple Republicans who are regretting letting him by post-Russia revelations.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:41 pm UTC
by eran_rathan
Re: DeVos and Sessions: because the AG can screw up a few years or at most a decade or two. Education Secretary can screw up whole generations.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:45 pm UTC
by Bane Harper
I am seeing it as the Great American Circus

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:59 pm UTC
by sardia
eran_rathan wrote:Re: DeVos and Sessions: because the AG can screw up a few years or at most a decade or two. Education Secretary can screw up whole generations.

Going up a worse school is way better than being brutalized and jailed forever by cops who know they have the backing of a good old southern gentleman.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:44 pm UTC
by eran_rathan
sardia wrote:
eran_rathan wrote:Re: DeVos and Sessions: because the AG can screw up a few years or at most a decade or two. Education Secretary can screw up whole generations.

Going up a worse school is way better than being brutalized and jailed forever by cops who know they have the backing of a good old southern gentleman.



For an individual, certainly. But for a country or a society? I don't think so. If you can control (or damage) how people learn, how they learn to think, how they process information, and distort those so that you have an entire generation (or more) who are relatively incapable of discerning truth from lies, you end up in a 1984 scenario, which I posit is far, far worse than anything the AG can do.

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:14 pm UTC
by SecondTalon
Can we not have a pissing contest over whether or not it's worse for a society to brutalize the bodies people of all ages for skin color versus brutalizing the minds of young people for having poor parents?

Because they both are fucking awful

Re: Trump presidency

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:46 pm UTC
by Sableagle
Isn't there a line about moving funding from education to the military and putting smart bombs in the hands of dumb soldiers?

Does military service offer a "route to respectability" or is it ever offered as an alternative to jail? Is it, in some other ways, presented as the alternative to jail?

Does it also provide access, for the servicebods or their children, to education that would be otherwise unavailable?

If both, well it's not quite conscription but when it comes to brutalising the minds and bodies of young adults militaries have had thousands of years of practice so they're probably quite proficient.

I wonder whether any of the military's purported aims could be more efficiently achieved by other departments in other ways.

https://www.nationalpriorities.org/camp ... fgodhscK3g
$820,351,996,550

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-iraq- ... PG20130314
The U.S. war in Iraq has cost $1.7 trillion with an additional $490 billion in benefits owed to war veterans, expenses that could grow to more than $6 trillion over the next four decades counting interest, a study released on Thursday said.


If they could, y'know, if as much or more could have been achieved for even 1% less money, well, $17 billion still sounds like a lot of money to me.

That might be a step away from "Service guarantees Citizenship," though. Does anyone stand to lose from the populace being better educated and the jail population being smaller?