Trump presidency

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gd1
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gd1 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:50 am UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:
gd1 wrote:Of course he's not smart enough to do this on his own. That's why he kept getting instructions in face to face backdoor meetings with Putin.
I think that's fundamentally misunderstanding what Russia gets out of this whole situation. Their interests are to discredit the US on the international stage, weaken the ties between the EU and USA, spread the idea of a moral equivalence between global powers (Russia does some bad stuff but so does the US therefore you can't criticize Russia about anything) and so on. None of this stuff requires Trump to actively collude with Putin, he just does it by nature of who he is.

Its the same reason they pushed for Brexit. I honestly don't even think they expected Brexit and Trump to happen, its just a way to sow division and internal strife.


I think Russia may want to damage or destroy the United States. We've interfered with Crimea. Trump has done damage to NATO (or was it the UN?). Putin may be using internal strife as a weapon to make anyone who could get in his way tear themselves apart. Trump has been ludicrously divisive. So has Brexit. Who would even be left besides China? And if the United States did take serious damage or even collapse, what would happen to our nuclear program? Would we be able to keep our nuke carrying submarines going? If he's patient he could treat it like a long siege. A lot of assumptions, but we may not really know his actual ambitions.

I have other feelings on what will actually happen which involve a religious dimension, but I'm focusing on this part for now.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:01 pm UTC

gd1 wrote:I think Russia may want to damage or destroy the United States. We've interfered with Crimea. Trump has done damage to NATO (or was it the UN?). Putin may be using internal strife as a weapon to make anyone who could get in his way tear themselves apart. Trump has been ludicrously divisive. So has Brexit. Who would even be left besides China? And if the United States did take serious damage or even collapse, what would happen to our nuclear program? Would we be able to keep our nuke carrying submarines going? If he's patient he could treat it like a long siege. A lot of assumptions, but we may not really know his actual ambitions.

I actually think his ambitions are simpler than that: It's all about discrediting the concept of democracy itself.

If Western democracies are totally dysfunctional, if governments can't get anything done because voters are weak and fractious and happy to tear each other apart, then clearly countries like China and Russia have it right, and populist dictatorships are the only form of government able to unite the people behind a strongman who can get sh*t done.

(And, when you look at how the UK have wasted the last two years with government focused on nothing but Brexit plans, and yet still it's a total clusterf*ck, it's hard to deny the half-truth therein...)

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zamfir » Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:41 pm UTC

The dissolution of the USSR actually included a referendum, at some point half way through. In terms of 'clusterfucks that take up all attention', Brexit has nothing on that.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gd1 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:27 am UTC

Now that I think about it, the constitution may be working as intended.

A good chunk of the American people, a chunk of the legislative branch, and some of the judicial branch are backing Trump's presidency. So unless the founding fathers wanted to impose a form of government that ignored that many people, they had to only build in certain safeguards and not others.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby freezeblade » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:51 am UTC

The constitution didn't count on the concept of "parties" which would use their power in a unified front to essentially be above the law. Which is exactly how it's playing out in current politics.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:38 am UTC

gd1 wrote:Now that I think about it, the constitution may be working as intended.

A good chunk of the American people, a chunk of the legislative branch, and some of the judicial branch are backing Trump's presidency. So unless the founding fathers wanted to impose a form of government that ignored that many people, they had to only build in certain safeguards and not others.
Many people...
With the Electoral College in place, we don't consider a majority of the people.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby eran_rathan » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:41 pm UTC

freezeblade wrote:The constitution didn't count on the concept of "parties" which would use their power in a unified front to essentially be above the law. Which is exactly how it's playing out in current politics.


I've said for a long time that all political parties ought to be dissolved under RICO.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gd1 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:08 pm UTC

I thought this Yahoo post seemed particularly representative of fear, not sure if it's a Russian bot or not though:

J J
2 minutes ago
@Ward that would be far better than the future the liberals want. Total government control over housing, food, jobs, having the population under the fist of the government and daily sacrificing of American citizens in favor of illegal criminals. To keep this from happening Trump can name it what ever he wants.


Comment link: link to comment

In response to this, so not much...

Ward
2 hours ago
AMERICA will be renamed to: "TrumPoniamerica"! Just wait and see!


Comment link: link to comment

On this article: Donald Trump Says Other Countries Aim Machine Guns At Migrants, But U.S. Won’t

Edit:

Stephen Colbert shows the Trump Family Crest:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iFMB585ZMTQ (1:12 in the video)

Says it sounds better in Latin:
Ex aliena potentia, praeiudicium, Pecunia tribulatiónibus, medicamento usus, et mores criminalibus

English Translation:
Involving foreign influence, conflicts of interest, concerning personal conduct, financial problems, drug use, and criminal conduct
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:59 pm UTC

gd1 wrote:
Ward
2 hours ago
AMERICA will be renamed to: "TrumPoniamerica"! Just wait and see!


Perhaps not so farfetched:

Trump’s ‘truly bizarre’ visit to Mt. Vernon
The 45th president — no student of history — marveled at the first president’s failure to name his historic compound after himself


Spoiler:
Um, gd1, your Latin is woefully ungrammatical.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby idonno » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:49 pm UTC

“If he was smart, he would’ve put his name on it,” Trump said, according to three sources briefed on the exchange. “You’ve got to put your name on stuff or no one remembers you.”

It is far classier to be so inspirational that everyone else puts your name on things.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:19 pm UTC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... Washington

Given how many Trump things have already failed (University, Steaks, etc) I don't imagine much immediate chance of a properly memorialised lasting legacy, initiating itself for posterity, in the current climate. Not without being termed, or understood to be, a "Folly".

Only capricious time will tell how the legacy unfolds (those who try to dictate their or others' legacies often would be disappointed if they were in a position to check it out after the fact). And I'm forgoing the jokes along the lines of the eventual Trump Presidential Library ending up with one small half-filled colouring book with the lines crossed, etc, etc, (and prob. recycled from Dubya's time, anyway) because there's far too many versions of those flying around.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:14 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_memorials_to_George_Washington

Given how many Trump things have already failed (University, Steaks, etc) I don't imagine much immediate chance of a properly memorialised lasting legacy, initiating itself for posterity, in the current climate. Not without being termed, or understood to be, a "Folly".

Only capricious time will tell how the legacy unfolds (those who try to dictate their or others' legacies often would be disappointed if they were in a position to check it out after the fact). And I'm forgoing the jokes along the lines of the eventual Trump Presidential Library ending up with one small half-filled colouring book with the lines crossed, etc, etc, (and prob. recycled from Dubya's time, anyway) because there's far too many versions of those flying around.

I'm guessing Trump will be the next Reagan, celebrated by conservatives even though he did a shit ton of damage. I would say hopefully he'll end up as reviled as Bush Jr, but that's too good for Trump.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:43 pm UTC

If the Democrats can manage to hold onto power long enough to undo the damage, then I say we can leave Trump a blip in the history books, mentioning him only to say things like "similar actions would later be taken by liberal fascists during a failed coup attempt led by Donald Trump in the United States".
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ijuin » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:16 pm UTC

Yes, if we are fortunate, students in the 22nd century will barely remember his name, just like how today’s students barely remember the presidents in between Jackson and Lincoln.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:43 pm UTC

ijuin wrote:Yes, if we are fortunate, students in the 22nd century will barely remember his name, just like how today’s students barely remember the presidents in between Jackson and Lincoln.

There were presidents between Samuel L. Jackson and Andrew Lincoln?

I know all the ones before, though: Denzel Washington, Bryan Adams, Stan "Laurel" Jefferson, Guy Madison, Marilyn Monroe, Douglas Adams. I forget most of the rest until Harrison Ford, but he's followed by some two-bit actor fella.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:51 am UTC

Maybe we'll get really lucky and "a Trump election" will become a phrase like "a Pyrrhic victory," because the result will be the total collapse of the party and its replacement on the ballot sheets by another within 12 years.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:28 am UTC

Speaking of Latin, the phrase damnatio memoriae seems relevant.

In some circles, damnatio memoriae of the current POTUS is being done already. From the New Verse News author guidelines:

The New Verse News wherever possible follows the practice invented, as far as we know, by Joyce Carol Oates to spell the name of the #FakePOTUS "T***p" so as to avoid soiling the site with an obscenity.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby eran_rathan » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:28 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:liberal fascist



off topic, but I'm confused by this term (unless 'liberal' to mean 'broadly construed or understood; not strictly literal or exact.') Aren't fascists considered reactionary/ultra-conservative in the modern cognizance?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:43 pm UTC

I'm using that term to imply that Republicans are literally classical liberals and are literally fascists, and so are unironically liberal fascists. As in they believe the things Nazis believed, just within the framework of liberalism instead of the framework of imperialism. Nazis actually based a lot of their ideas off American racial policy at the time, and classical liberals had historically owned slaved and made exceptions to civil liberties for people they deemed inferior.

From my post in the police misbehavior thread:

Thesh wrote:I would argue that the ideology of America today, that is both in theory and practice, is Liberal Fascism: "Society is naturally hierarchical and social cohesion requires conformity, and so authority should be centralized to the level of the elite who is naturally selected by capitalist markets because the good of the elite is the good of the collective, and if some individuals/families/genes/cultures/traditions/values/etc. cannot compete in the markets, then it's okay if they die out because it will ultimately lead to a better society."
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby eran_rathan » Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:28 pm UTC

that makes sense. thanks for the explanation.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:41 am UTC

That implies the Nazis were relatively pro-American, the people that is, yet Americans were viewed as "mutts" below most pureblood Europeans, but above Slavs. The Nazis were very much pro-French and British, viewing them as near racial equals, celebrating their heritage and such (which is why the Vichy government was NOT formed out of some obscure minority of Frenchmen). While the US was still incredibly racist and had eugenics programs up the wazoo, the Nuremberg defence of "well, we based it on YOUUU!!!" was mostly post-hoc bullshit.


As for fascist, the Republicans definitely have unsettling similarities, as do Democrats though not quite as unsettling as the Republicans. In terms of classic liberal, no, they are nothing of the sort. You might claim they are lassaiz faire economically, except for all the bailouts of executives that fuck up and government subsidies to cronies, basically socialism for the wealthy and the worst excesses of capitalism for everyone else. Socially, buwhahaha there isnt even anything remotely related to classic liberalism.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:16 am UTC

See the distinction between imperialism and liberalism. They were not identical, they had different frameworks from which they approached fascism and each group clings to their own traditions (the ones they see as making them great in the past).

I'm not sure where you are getting that notion of classical liberalism. Classical liberalism sees the role of government to be a minimalist role to protect society and maintain infrastructure, but they didn't believe in social liberalism. Republicans use classical liberalism as a justification for authoritarian social structures, but it's maintained through economic and social control, not government control (because people don't support their government policies).
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:08 pm UTC

Does anyone have any sources for this, or are we just saying what the Republicans party reminds us of? There's plenty of historians looking into white supremacy, echos of the civil war, or the far right propaganda machine.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:38 pm UTC

You can argue all the points of Ur-Fascism if you want, which I would say they are a pretty good descriptor, but Republicans embody the most important and dangerous points: They are willing to make changes in policy that harm marginalized people, justified entirely by the premise that natural selection will lead to better outcomes and if marginalized people cannot conform to social norms then without welfare they will be forced to stop having babies, or the babies will be taken from them and given to a family who can conform.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:35 pm UTC

It's been pretty quiet around here.

I felt a little schadenfreude about the Mueller Report's documentation of Sarah Huckabee Sanders being caught in a lie, but I was depressed that it makes no difference. By now Trump's opponents and supporters both assume that she's lying all the time, anyway.

In an episode of rare ignominy even for Trump’s circle, Sarah Sanders, the press secretary, baldly lied to the American people in order to carry out a smear campaign against Comey, who had just been fired.

Sanders told the press corps Comey had lost the confidence of his rank and file, saying: “I’ve heard from countless members of the FBI that are grateful and thankful for the president’s decision. I’m sure that there are some people that are disappointed, but I’ve certainly heard from a large number of individuals, and that’s just myself, and I don’t even know that many people in the FBI.”

The lie grew more florid in response to a one-word follow-up question: “Really?”

“Between like email, text messages, absolutely,” Sanders lied. “I have heard from a large number of individuals that work at the FBI that have said they’re very happy with the president’s decision.”

Mueller lays that claim to rest with one line: “Sanders acknowledged to investigators that her comments were not founded on anything.”


Whoops, forgot the source link:
Guardian: All the president's men and women: how disobedient aides saved Trump.
Sanders stands out for her obedience, it seems.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:52 pm UTC

"Really?" could be an apposite default follow-up question to many things from that quarter.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:35 am UTC

"Yes, they were obviously acting unethically and harming the entire country, but it's not clear they have actually violated the letter of the law." - How the law works for rich people
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:38 am UTC

Thesh wrote:"Yes, they were obviously acting unethically and harming the entire country, but it's not clear they have actually violated the letter of the law." - How the law works for rich people

Barr has increased his definition of what constitutes breaking the law for the president. Barr mentioned that earlier when he submitted an unsolicited op-ed,aka please hire me Mr Trump ad, saying a president can't be held criminals liable if the action was legal in some way. (You can fire a Justice department official, therefore firing him to obstruct Justice is ok.) This is part of why Mueller punted his decision making when he wrote the report.
What I'm confused about is why Barr is doing such a terrible job at hiding his partisanship. It's not hard to fake objectivity.

Don't worry, as soon as Democrats gain control, the GOP will regain all their morals and principled etc etc someone should punch these Republicans Nazis before they die happily of old age

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:21 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Don't worry, as soon as Democrats gain control, the GOP will regain all their morals and principled etc etc someone should punch these Republicans Nazis before they die happily of old age
It's not the kindest and most Christan of thoughts to entertain on Easter Morning.
Yet, I can't help but to agree with you..

And; Ten Times Over for that &*%$& Mitch McConnell.
He will go down in the History Books, too.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ijuin » Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:15 pm UTC

Honestly, the best punishment for these people would be to go down in total obscurity. Having students in the 22nd century and beyond be totally forgetful that there ever was a man named Donald Trump, the way that hardly anybody today remembers Zachery Taylor or Franklin Pierce, would be the greatest victory over him.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:28 am UTC

ijuin wrote:Honestly, the best punishment for these people would be to go down in total obscurity. Having students in the 22nd century and beyond be totally forgetful that there ever was a man named Donald Trump, the way that hardly anybody today remembers Zachery Taylor or Franklin Pierce, would be the greatest victory over him.
Yes. I agree.
That would be nice.

But; It's not going to be that way.
Nixon has been pushed aside.

This man and the damage done will be taught as a turning point.
World War II will not be erased from our collective memory.


He may be something so bad our world turns toward something better.
Or; He may be used as a marker of when we passed the point of no return.

Either way, he has secured a place for himself in our World History books.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:10 am UTC

ijuin wrote:Honestly, the best punishment for these people would be to go down in total obscurity. Having students in the 22nd century and beyond be totally forgetful that there ever was a man named Donald Trump, the way that hardly anybody today remembers Zachery Taylor or Franklin Pierce, would be the greatest victory over him.

Reversing tax cuts by making all those people pay that money back would be a better revenge. It'd be complicated as hell though.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby cphite » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:51 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Thesh wrote:"Yes, they were obviously acting unethically and harming the entire country, but it's not clear they have actually violated the letter of the law." - How the law works for rich people

Barr has increased his definition of what constitutes breaking the law for the president. Barr mentioned that earlier when he submitted an unsolicited op-ed,aka please hire me Mr Trump ad, saying a president can't be held criminals liable if the action was legal in some way. (You can fire a Justice department official, therefore firing him to obstruct Justice is ok.) This is part of why Mueller punted his decision making when he wrote the report.
What I'm confused about is why Barr is doing such a terrible job at hiding his partisanship. It's not hard to fake objectivity.

Don't worry, as soon as Democrats gain control, the GOP will regain all their morals and principled etc etc someone should punch these Republicans Nazis before they die happily of old age


Bit of an oversimplification.

Trump can fire a Justice Department official because that is a Constitutionally granted power; he can fire them because he doesn't like the job they're doing, or because he doesn't like their political positions - or because he doesn't like their shoes. Unless you can conclusively prove that his reason for firing them is to obstruct justice, it's effectively impossible to prosecute.

There was a similar situation when Trump issued his pointless Muslim travel ban; the president absolutely has the authority to issue such a ban. However, the courts initially ruled that previous statements he had made were strong evidence that his intent was based on prejudice, therefore rendering the order illegitimate.

By the very nature of the office, the president can get away with a lot of questionable shit that is still technically legal.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:46 pm UTC

Assuming he's still in a state to do so, the State Visit is made official. Come on, British weather, bring about a traditionally wet and miserable June, you know you want to. I don't care if it stops the fascinating Spitfire/Hurricane flyovers, if it also acts like the WW1 centenary debacle.

Alternately, on recent years' records (and this January's/current situation that sparked moorland blazes) I'm sure we can rustle up a heat-wave so hot that The Beast gets irrecoverably stuck in the tar of the Mall, or something.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:10 pm UTC

The Mueller Report Was My Tipping Point:
I was a Trump transition staffer, and I’ve seen enough. It’s time for impeachment.


by J. W. Verret (No, I'd never heard of him either, but still--perhaps it's possible for him to talk sense into some Republicans)*

I wanted to share my experience transitioning from Trump team member to pragmatist about Trump to advocate for his impeachment, because I think many other Republicans are starting a similar transition. Politics is a team sport, and if you actively work within a political party, there is some expectation that you will follow orders and rally behind the leader, even when you disagree. There is a point, though, at which that expectation turns from a mix of loyalty and pragmatism into something more sinister, a blind devotion that serves to enable criminal conduct.

The Mueller report was that tipping point for me, and it should be for Republican and independent voters, and for Republicans in Congress. In the face of a Department of Justice policy that prohibited him from indicting a sitting president, Mueller drafted what any reasonable reader would see as a referral to Congress to commence impeachment hearings.



* I have repeatedly been disappointed re: Republicans' ability to have sense talked into them, but hope springs eternal.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:55 am UTC

Democrats are so goddamned spineless. Trump is obviously ignoring the law, regardless of the Mueller report. He should be impeached regardless of whether or not Republicans will convict. Trump and Republicans want to dismantle democracy in America, Republican politicians are openly calling for left wing activists to be rounded up and executed, they are pushing through extremists judges who are hostile to civil rights at a record pace, and a handful of Republicans only have mild criticism of Trump. Democrats are barely willing to go after Trump, and still want to play the civility game.

Fuck centrists. They are just as responsible for terrorism and destruction of democracy as anyone. When push comes to shove, they always side with fascists in the name of civility.

Republican voters are fucking evil. Barely any loss in support for their party, or their agenda. The entire Republican platform is a list of groups they say responsible for their problems, with the only solutions to disempower, and Republicans are 100% on board. Pure hatred as an ideology.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:57 am UTC

Sadly, that kind of rant is a small reason many voted for Trump in the first place.

Elections are won in the middle ground - by appealing to the masses, and hyperbole like calling ordinary right-wing voices on this board 'fucking evil' is just a complete turn-off. All you'll get is people saying 'well fuck you too!' and doubling down on their views.

If your attitude were more commonly voiced, it would honestly cause the Dems to be unelectable for a generation. And, as someone who thinks even the Dems are too right-wing for their taste, I think personally that'd be tragic for your country... :(

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natraj
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby natraj » Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:50 am UTC

anyway, republican voters are fucking evil, and also elasto your post is a bunch of nonsense. elections in this country aren't won by appealing to "the middle", bc that view lost the democrats the last election.

in part, anyway. what actually also lost the democrats the last election was the fact that the republicans are committed to and have successfully pulled off a very well orchestrated campaign of voter suppression, disenfranchisement, extreme racist and partisan gerrymandering and outright fraud in order to openly steal votes and ensure that despite being a minority in this country by far, they consolidate power to themselves more and more, so you can take your bullshit opinion about appealing to "the masses" (who, in fact, are pretty progressive but also don't get fairly represented at the polls) and shove it.
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JudeMorrigan
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby JudeMorrigan » Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:58 am UTC

elasto wrote:Sadly, that kind of rant is a small reason many voted for Trump in the first place.

Elections are won in the middle ground - by appealing to the masses, and hyperbole like calling ordinary right-wing voices on this board 'fucking evil' is just a complete turn-off. All you'll get is people saying 'well fuck you too!' and doubling down on their views.

If your attitude were more commonly voiced, it would honestly cause the Dems to be unelectable for a generation. And, as someone who thinks even the Dems are too right-wing for their taste, I think personally that'd be tragic for your country... :(

It's really weird ("weird") how much more effort is spent on tone-policing Democrats than Republicans. I mean, ok. Apparently you have all of these people who totally weren't going to vote for the misogynistic, racist, almost-certainly-criminal Trump but what choice did they have when Dems were mean to them? Where is the ink being spilled warning Repblicans that if they don't moderate their extremist rhetoric, it's going to drive voters into the arms of the Democratic party?

Mutex
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:08 pm UTC

Yeah, given the hateful, venomous, dehumanising crap the GOP spews at Democrats like a burst sewer-pipe 24/7 it's hard to believe a lack of tone-policing loses elections.


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