Trump presidency

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gd1
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gd1 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:32 pm UTC

Image

For some reason I got an email asking to support them? Well, that's what it looks like (minus the blacked out parts). Might belong in the election thread more?

Now, he did make a compelling argument right up until he started talking about steak. I hate steak.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:51 am UTC

I need to know that that's not real because it's making me literally physically nauseous to think that that's real.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:12 am UTC

I don't think that's real. Maybe I'm wrong, though?

Nothing in it appears out-of-character, but it looks more like an attempt to remind people what Trump stands for (in hopes of polarizing Democrats) than something Trump would actually try.

I wouldn't be shocked to find out it's the work of an anti-Trump person pulling a Tricky Dick (manufacture a crisis to give the opposition more momentum).
Last edited by The Great Hippo on Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:14 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gd1 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:14 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:I need to know that that's not real because it's making me literally physically nauseous to think that that's real.


Should I spoiler it with a disclaimer warning?

The Great Hippo wrote:I don't think that's real. Maybe I'm wrong, though?

Nothing in it appears out-of-character, but it looks more like an attempt to remind people what Trump stands for (in hopes of polarizing Democrats) than something Trump would actually try.

I wouldn't be shocked to find out it's the work of an anti-Trump person trying to basically pull a Tricky Dick move (trying to manufacture a crisis to give the opposition more momentum).


Nope, it's literally copied (using snipping tool and paint brush) from my email. Except that I blacked out certain parts (probably a bit more than I needed to).
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:16 am UTC

gd1 wrote:Nope, it's literally copied (using snipping tool and paint brush) from my email.
Beg your pardon -- to clarify, I'm not accusing you of faking it; I'm saying I suspect someone's sending out fake emails.

Could be wrong, though. Have you checked the linked donation page to verify?

EDIT: I mean, check carefully. If it is fake, the link might also be scummy/full of malware.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:19 am UTC

Summum ius, summa iniuria.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:23 am UTC

Wow.

I really ought to know better, at this point. No Anti-Trump troll could ever make Trump look worse than Trump.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gd1 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:18 am UTC



That's good, because these days if you click on anything you get ads for it so I'd rather not click the donation links.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:54 am UTC

Reading those articles, it appears that there was actually such an email sent out by Trump promising what it says, but that the promise is a lie, kind of: Trump isn't actually donating any of his own money, but transferring donations made to his campaign, to the GOP, to fund other Republicans' campaigns.

Also Nancy Pelosi apparently sent out an email of her own with a similar promise that is similarly untrue-ish.

The fact that it's not a supposedly-billionaire president personally funding the furthering of his party's stranglehold on the government takes some of the nauseating factor out of it, but the rhetoric of Trump's email still makes me sick.

All that fearmongering of "the Democrats are going to take over the government and it'll be violent mob rule!" while the Republicans control the entire government and are systematically reducing the possibility of any nonviolent political opposition to them strikes me as the kind of bullying tactic whereby the bully strategically forces his target into a corner where his only hope of escaping torment is to physically fight his way out, whereupon the bully plays the victim and has the target punished "for his violence".

I feel like the right are trying to push the left to the point that we feel like the only recourse is violent revolution because all the democratic political options have been taken off the table, and then when that finally happens (not that I'm hoping it does, but in this plan is seems like they're pursuing) they'll scream "see! violent mob rule just like we told you!"

Meanwhile the right are the ones stockpiling guns and talking about the "inevitable" civil war that's brewing, that they really really want, because they just want an excuse to shoot up some [insert disgusting hateful epithet for people on the left here].
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gd1 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:08 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Reading those articles, it appears that there was actually such an email sent out by Trump promising what it says, but that the promise is a lie, kind of: Trump isn't actually donating any of his own money, but transferring donations made to his campaign, to the GOP, to fund other Republicans' campaigns.

Also Nancy Pelosi apparently sent out an email of her own with a similar promise that is similarly untrue-ish.

The fact that it's not a supposedly-billionaire president personally funding the furthering of his party's stranglehold on the government takes some of the nauseating factor out of it, but the rhetoric of Trump's email still makes me sick.

All that fearmongering of "the Democrats are going to take over the government and it'll be violent mob rule!" while the Republicans control the entire government and are systematically reducing the possibility of any nonviolent political opposition to them strikes me as the kind of bullying tactic whereby the bully strategically forces his target into a corner where his only hope of escaping torment is to physically fight his way out, whereupon the bully plays the victim and has the target punished "for his violence".

I feel like the right are trying to push the left to the point that we feel like the only recourse is violent revolution because all the democratic political options have been taken off the table, and then when that finally happens (not that I'm hoping it does, but in this plan is seems like they're pursuing) they'll scream "see! violent mob rule just like we told you!"

Meanwhile the right are the ones stockpiling guns and talking about the "inevitable" civil war that's brewing, that they really really want, because they just want an excuse to shoot up some [insert disgusting hateful epithet for people on the left here].


Not allowed to bet, but won't it be interesting if Trump flees the country to Russia and becomes an oligarch in exchange for what he did here?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:09 pm UTC

That's stupid. He can take the Palin route or the classical political route of getting paid for short speeches. It's a lot of money.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:35 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:b) George Soros is the conservative boogieman, and while yes, many anti-semites use him as a dog whistle for the Jewminati or whatever, there are reasons beyond "he's a JOO" that he's said boogieman.


Largely, he's a democrat. And one with money, who is active in politics. Pretty much same as how Democrats view the Koch brothers. Definitely unpopular, but for pretty straightforwardly partisan reasons. Similar attitudes are pretty common in general in politics.

natraj wrote:his whole "i'm not a globalist i'm a nationalist" is literally pandering directly to white nationalists


That phrase is also "US first" vs caring about global opinion. This is a significant right/left policy difference, and while the use of "nationalist" is odd, and probably is pandering to some degree, this is largely expression of a populist sentiment. The right itself isn't particularly anti-Semitic. The alt right is, but the right proper is quite likely to say, take Israel's side on most topics.

Pfhorrest wrote:I need to know that that's not real because it's making me literally physically nauseous to think that that's real.


I wouldn't be even slightly surprised. I get messages from both parties with equivalent subtlety on the regular when election season kicks in. There's a lot of lowest common denominator partisanship.

Man, I should dig out the NRA voter's guide they sent me. NRA's obstensibly gun only, and sometimes they do okay with that, but sometimes it's pretty bad partisanship.

Electioneering in general is pretty ugly.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:09 pm UTC

And yet funnily enough I'm unaware of any attempts to mail bombs to the Koch brothers. Also I don't think many leftists believe they literally fund the whole of right-wing political activism. Nobody thinks they're working with ISIS to bring in terrorists.

Image

As the right drifts further Naziward, your both-sides rhetoric wears thinner and thinner.

Edit: Also, being pro-Israel doesn't mean you're not antisemitic, just like criticizing Israel doesn't mean you are. If you think there need to be Jews in Palestine in order for Armageddon to happen, you don't exactly have their best interests at heart.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:25 pm UTC

Also, a lot of the right's pro-Israel stance seems to just be about preferring them over Muslims. This doesn't necessarily mean seeing Jews as equal to Christians. Ant-Israel sentiment on the left is more driven by seeing all people as equal, including the thousands of Muslim people losing their lives in Palestine.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:41 pm UTC

As a Jewish Israeli, let me just stay that a lot of Israel's official policies themselves can count as antisemitic.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:36 pm UTC

@gmal

Uh, what is that flag on the top? The white and blue flag with 5 stars in the middle?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:43 pm UTC

Honduras.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:31 pm UTC

When in doubt Google's actually pretty good about phrases like "white and blue flag with five stars in the middle".

Though am I missing something about Honduras? I'd have expected El Salvador more, as that's the country most associated with the MS-13 gang Trump has used to paint everyone from Latin America with the "criminal animals" brush.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby freezeblade » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:57 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:When in doubt Google's actually pretty good about phrases like "white and blue flag with five stars in the middle".

Though am I missing something about Honduras? I'd have expected El Salvador more, as that's the country most associated with the MS-13 gang Trump has used to paint everyone from Latin America with the "criminal animals" brush.


The current migrant "caravan" that is heading to the US to seek asylum is largely from Honduras, from my understanding.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Angua » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:13 pm UTC

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:30 pm UTC

Re GMal both sides ism
Given the merely "bad" poll numbers that Republicans (Trump included) have, I dunno how far anti Trump ism is going go. Even in the biggest wave election, it might mean 40% of America is allied with Nazi/white supremacists/wealthy elite. 32% if Democrats win huge. That's still a third of the country that thinks partisanship over country. You literally have to beg constantly for weeks before anyone even realizes war crimes are a bad idea.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ijuin » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:24 pm UTC

At this point I’ll settle for getting just enough votes in the Senate and House to prevent the Trumpists from railroading their stuff through until we can get a sane President of either party to succeed him.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:14 pm UTC

ijuin wrote:At this point I’ll settle for getting just enough votes in the Senate and House to prevent the Trumpists from railroading their stuff through until we can get a sane President of either party to succeed him.

We don't even have enough (80% probably not)for that. The house is 7 points more conservative relative to the country, the Senate is even more conservative. Your best bet is the Democrats shame the GOP away from the worst war crimes . (Or the magical tipping point of unpopularity a la Bush in his second term). Which makes Democrats complicit in the bad things the GOP does.

Good news, counter Gerrymandering will negate some of the conservative tilt, but the Senate will be stuck.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:29 pm UTC

sardia wrote: Your best bet is the Democrats shame the GOP away from the worst war crimes .


I wouldn't consider that a terribly good bet. Democrats shaming republicans seems more likely to result in "this is a terrible idea, but if we do it, it'll bother the democrats, which means it's a GREAT idea".

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:40 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
I wouldn't consider that a terribly good bet. Democrats shaming republicans seems more likely to result in "this is a terrible idea, but if we do it, it'll bother the democrats, which means it's a GREAT idea".
I've seen comments like that before but nobody ever proved it had a real effect.
Do you have citation/example beyond trolling comments on social media? For example family separation, initial travel ban, and the repeal attempt.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:11 pm UTC

Well, there's the old research about how partisanship actually strengthens when presented with counterarguments, if you're going for scientific study.

If you're looking for examples of Republican spite for Democrats, why, the continued calls to "lock Her up" ought to suffice. From a strategic standpoint, Clinton's pretty irrelevant now. There isn't much to be gained from attacking her further in any practical sense. I'd say that's a rather clearcut case of spite, solely based on prior opposition.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ijuin » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:41 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
sardia wrote: Your best bet is the Democrats shame the GOP away from the worst war crimes .


I wouldn't consider that a terribly good bet. Democrats shaming republicans seems more likely to result in "this is a terrible idea, but if we do it, it'll bother the democrats, which means it's a GREAT idea".

How does one shame somebody who has no shame?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:42 pm UTC

Large groups of people pointing and laughing?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:01 pm UTC

Doesn't seem like it's done much against Trump.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:06 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Doesn't seem like it's done much against Trump.

Counterpoint, first travel ban, family separation sorta, and the tax cut. Tax cut was changed to benefit middle class more. Now you could argue that Trump's machine needs time to wear down the guilt (by sabotaging the reputation of opponents a la Mueller and Comey) but the administration does have shame. Pruitt wouldn't have resigned if he didn't. Or the Flynn resignation.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:17 pm UTC

I think that's less 'shame' and more 'political expediency'.

I suspect Trump and most of his cronies lack the necessary creativity to imagine a world in which they've done anything wrong.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dauric » Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:38 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:I think that's less 'shame' and more 'political expediency'.

I suspect Trump and most of his cronies lack the necessary creativity to imagine a world in which they've done anything wrong.


I think denial and rationalization play a heavy part in it too.

In other news: Tax Cut benefits seem to be wearing off.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:00 pm UTC

Welp. It's happening.

Trump intends to end birthright citizenship. Luckily, he will be stopped by the supreme cour... oh.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:22 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Welp. It's happening.

Trump intends to end birthright citizenship. Luckily, he will be stopped by the supreme cour... oh.

Until it hits the courts, it's just a trial balloon to see what they can get away with. Though I do wonder what a republican court will let them get away with. It'll take work to keep this up, so it's mostly red meat for the anti immigrant xenophobic base.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dauric » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:41 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Until it hits the courts, it's just a trial balloon to see what they can get away with. Though I do wonder what a republican court will let them get away with. It'll take work to keep this up, so it's mostly red meat for the anti immigrant xenophobic base.


Not actually sure it will get that far. This sounds a lot like the "middle class tax cut" Trump announced that would be enacted the week Congress was out of town. It's a soundbite to get the Republican base fired up about all the 'good' Trump is doing for immigration to distract from the benefits we were supposed to be seeing from the heavily corporation-benefiting tax cut haven't actually materialized (like how "economic Growth" was supposed to pay for them despite more than 30% reduction in receipts from corporations and a ballooning deficit.)
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:18 pm UTC

This is a great idea. Let's retroactively limit citizenship to people whose ancestors were (mostly) living in North America in the year 1500.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SDK » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:01 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:This is a great idea. Let's retroactively limit citizenship to people whose ancestors were (mostly) living in North America in the year 1500.

Hey now, I'm pretty sure the pilgrims applied for citizenship the legal way. I mean, if they were illegal immigrants, then it would be pretty awkward that they're so venerated during Thanksgiving.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:15 pm UTC

I say that only giant sloths, giant beavers, smilodons, short-faced bears and maybe sabretooth salmon* are eligible to vote.


* if not, they can earn proxy citizenship if they patrol the nautical territorial limits to prevent further immigration.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:31 pm UTC

Legally speaking, the SC has never ruled on whether or not the child of illegal immigrants is automatically a citizen. It's been de facto Jus Soli, but if you look at the world, Jus Soli is extremely rare outside the US

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:36 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Legally speaking, the SC has never ruled on whether or not the child of illegal immigrants is automatically a citizen. It's been de facto Jus Soli, but if you look at the world, Jus Soli is extremely rare outside the US


Sure. But on the flip side, we've done it that way for a while, and it would be pretty weird to undo it now. Are we going to retroactively challenge the citizenship of a whole lot of folks? That seems messy.

Even a conservative supreme court is probably going to be hesitant to open that can of worms.


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