Trump presidency

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:00 am UTC

The definition of left vs right gets... blurry. Viewing things by whether they are hierarchical or more flat is probably the best way, but it is not always clear. Having socio-economics classes based predominantly on birth with little social mobility is economically right-wing, but if within those classes there is little distinction between sex, gender, sexuality, race, religion etc, it is left-wing. While "conservative" is usually synonymous with "right-wing", it's possible to have a "flipped" hierarchy such as women as the superior gender* or blue collar workers being above white collar** which would not truly be "left-wing".

In terms of India, it's extremely homophobic and mysogynistic with a large amount of inter-faith hatred, so it is extremely right-wing socially. Economically, it's not exactly the worker's paradise, and in many places tribal; "tribal" is about as conservative an economic system you can get, but it's much more flat than robber-baron capitalism.


*Extremely rare, but there are notable cases. Singapore, for unusual reasons; the male-only draft/service requires that the military reserves randomly report for duty at no reimbursement to their employers, so quite a few firms will outright refuse to hire military-age men.
**Cambodia under Pol Pot being the most horrific example, but again, it's rare.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ijuin » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:24 am UTC

On the general rightward shift in recent decades, consider Richard Nixon. In his time he was considered a hardline right-winger, yet today’s Republican Party would scream that he is a pinko. Regularizing diplomatic relations with Communist China? Creating a federal Environmental Protection Agency with real teeth? Obviously a lefty for sure.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:44 am UTC

ijuin wrote:On the general rightward shift in recent decades, consider Richard Nixon. In his time he was considered a hardline right-winger, yet today’s Republican Party would scream that he is a pinko. Regularizing diplomatic relations with Communist China? Creating a federal Environmental Protection Agency with real teeth? Obviously a lefty for sure.


Nixon was center-left in his own day and age. He was doing things that the Democrats had asked for yet they still fought him because they didn't want his name on it.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:06 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Nixon was center-left in his own day and age. He was doing things that the Democrats had asked for yet they still fought him because they didn't want his name on it.
Doing some things that the Democrats ask for isn't what makes you center-left. And I don't think anyone's prepared to engage with you in a serious discussion over whether or not Richard flipping Nixon was considered 'center-left' by his own party (spoilers: he wasn't).

Anyway.

Hey, Yablo. Remember how you keep saying your main issue with Trump is that he just talks too much?
CNN wrote:President Donald Trump pointed the finger Wednesday night at his opponents and the news media for the turbulent national political environment, on the same day it was revealed explosive devices were mailed to the Obamas, the Clintons, CNN and other public officials.

[...]

"The language of moral condemnation and destructive, routine -- these are arguments and disagreements that have to stop," said Trump, who has routinely labeled Waters "crazy," referred to the news media as the "enemy of the people," called those who held up his Supreme Court nominee "people that are evil" and blamed "both sides" when a neo-Nazi ran over and killed a counter-protester in Charlottesville, Virginia.

Trump took no responsibility for his own rhetoric -- which has included attacks on news outlets and Democratic opponents, as well as moments like a recent rally in Montana where he praised a Republican congressman who pleaded guilty to charges stemming from his body-slamming a reporter.

He complained of "mobs" -- a reference to protesters, who opposed Brett Kavanaugh's Supreme Court nomination and confronted Republican senators on Capitol Hill, and who have challenged GOP lawmakers and Trump Cabinet officials at restaurants and in public.


New York Times wrote:President Donald Trump continues to make calls via cell phone despite intelligence that China and Russia listen in, The New York Times reported Wednesday.

[...]

The New York Times report said the officials raising an alarm about Trump's refusal to stop making unsecured calls were doing so out of frustration.

Those officials told the Times that China was seeking to use its findings on Trump to help the country in its trade dispute with the US and that the Chinese had noted Trump's conversations with Stephen Schwarzman, head of The Blackstone Group, and Steve Wynn, a Las Vegas figure who established major investments in Macau, a gambling hub in China.


Yeah, we all wish the President of the United States would just shut the fuck up, too.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:15 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
Yablo wrote:Except, we can't have a right and a center without a left. If the entire left were to simply cease to exist, everything would necessarily recalibrate, and the center would become the new left.

Only if you have nothing but other local and contemporary politicians' policies/platforms/opinions by which to judge, and not the whole world's historical breadth of possibilities.

You can quite easily know that there are possible opinions (because people have held them) far to one side of the spectrum of opinions held by people near you in space and time, and not much to the other side of that spectrum, and judge that people near you in space and time are generally biased toward one side of the whole spectrum of possibilities.


Left and right may not even mean exactly the same things in other countries. Issues that are controversial there may not be here and vice versa. Yeah, on specific issues you can compare fairly apples to apples, but overall it gets a good deal fuzzier.

Corrupt's also got a fair point that such comparisons are usually made only to first world nations. This is interesting in some respects, but it certainly isn't the whole spectrum of opinions.

CorruptUser wrote:
ijuin wrote:On the general rightward shift in recent decades, consider Richard Nixon. In his time he was considered a hardline right-winger, yet today’s Republican Party would scream that he is a pinko. Regularizing diplomatic relations with Communist China? Creating a federal Environmental Protection Agency with real teeth? Obviously a lefty for sure.


Nixon was center-left in his own day and age. He was doing things that the Democrats had asked for yet they still fought him because they didn't want his name on it.


I mean, when campaigning, he was suggesting a policy of avoiding Vietnam war type scenarios, while his opponent was babbling about brainwashing. It would be difficult to argue that a more centrist/left-friendly candidate was available to Republicans at the time. Rockafeller and Reagan both were obviously more conservative.

Of modern Republican presidents, Nixon was definitely the most liberal. If you glance earlier to Eisenhower, you've got a guy that ran on intervening in foreign wars and reducing the deficit. Those sound pretty familiar to the modern conservative.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby eran_rathan » Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:11 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Of modern Republican presidents, Nixon was definitely the most liberal. If you glance earlier to Eisenhower, you've got a guy that ran on intervening in foreign wars and reducing the deficit. Those sound pretty familiar to the modern conservative.


with the obvious difference that Eisenhower was fighting against fascists, rather than saying, "You had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides."
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:25 pm UTC

Trump's an outlier from the standard conservative in some respects, sure. But most of them are not terribly far from Eisenhower, and of course Reagan is still pretty venerated. The idea that there's a trendline in which conservatives have become vastly more so on average does not appear to be true. Are some of them racist? Well, sure. But were some of them racist in the era of Nixon? *looks at southern strategy* Oh yes. If anything, more blatantly so.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:32 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Trump's an outlier from the standard conservative in some respects, sure. But most of them are not terribly far from Eisenhower, and of course Reagan is still pretty venerated. The idea that there's a trendline in which conservatives have become vastly more so on average does not appear to be true. Are some of them racist? Well, sure. But were some of them racist in the era of Nixon? *looks at southern strategy* Oh yes. If anything, more blatantly so.

Alternative, we compare Trump to president Jackson. Though Jackson was more popular. And smart.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:50 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Of modern Republican presidents, Nixon was definitely the most liberal. If you glance earlier to Eisenhower, you've got a guy that ran on intervening in foreign wars and reducing the deficit. Those sound pretty familiar to the modern conservative.

Sure, if you cherry-pick the most liberal things Nixon supported and the most conservative things Eisenhower supported, then the logical conclusion is that Nixon was liberal and Eisenhower was conservative.

On the other hand if you focus on things like the racism in the War on Drugs and the Southern Strategy, and Eisenhower's warnings about the military-industrial complex and his assertion that "only through the United Nations Organization and its truly democratic processes can humanity make real and universal progress" and quotes like below, it paints a rather different picture.

Today in America unions have a secure place in our industrial life. Only a handful of unreconstructed reactionaries harbor the ugly thought of breaking unions. Only a fool would try to deprive working men and women of the right to join the union of their choice.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:57 pm UTC

Everyone always cuts off the warning about the MiC speech at that point. They skip over his fearmongering over the scientific elite, or his concerns about federal funding. If anything's cherry picked about Eisenhower, it's that. It's, at most, a bit of late concern over the thing he largely helped create.

Not so different from modern republicans expressing concern over the deficit in the end.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:04 pm UTC

Sure but, like I said, you were already cherry-picking to support your narrative, so obviously I picked the quotes that best supported the opposite one.

Point is, they both had some positions that would seem downright socialist by some of today's GOP, and others that fit pretty well with where Republicans have been heading since the Depression.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:18 pm UTC

Sure, but did he actually act on that quote while in power? I think what someone does trumps what they say.

And if we're looking for a modern, hyper conservative variant of that speech, it's probably "taxation is theft". The sentiment is not so very different.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:29 pm UTC

https://www.npr.org/2018/10/25/66045853 ... ibeca-area
Terrorism by alt right Nazis continues. Bomb count is up to 10 now as Biden and Robert Di nero are targeted. Trump blames the media, and his supporters blame false flag attempts.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:58 pm UTC

sardia wrote:https://www.npr.org/2018/10/25/660458533/suspicious-package-discovered-in-nycs-tribeca-area
Terrorism by alt right Nazis continues. Bomb count is up to 10 now as Biden and Robert Di nero are targeted. Trump blames the media, and his supporters blame false flag attempts.

Not all Trump supporters blame false flag attempts. Most Trump supporters I know personally actually happen to think that's a ridiculous idea, myself included. We won't know for sure until the person or people responsible are found, but it seems far more likely to be coming from the far right than the left.

There's no evidence pointing to Nazis that I've seen, though. Terrorism? Definitely. Alt-right? Very probably. Nazis? Inconclusive.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:15 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:I think what someone does trumps what they say.
The difference is not all that clear. Some action is speech, and some speech is action. When the general of an army shouts "Charge!", that's not speech except in the most pedantic sense of the word. That is action. That is a violent attack on the enemy (whoever it is at that point in the battlefield), even if the general himself doesn't fire a single bullet.

Similarly, the deed of an ordinary citizen burning xis own copy of the American Flag is speech more than action, especially as the "action" part isn't action against anybody else, but rather, an artful way of expressing an opinion about the political state of the country.

In that light, speech by the President of the United States which praises, supports, and all but calls for violence, isn't speech as much as it is deed. It is shy of shouting "Charge!", but it's not much shy of that.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:42 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:I think what someone does trumps what they say.
The difference is not all that clear.
...
In that light, speech by the President of the United States which praises, supports, and all but calls for violence, isn't speech as much as it is deed. It is shy of shouting "Charge!", but it's not much shy of that.


I'm contrasting the outgoing speech of a president with all the things that president did(including laying the groundwork for the Vietnam war). In a deeds vs words comparison, we point out how the words are deeply undercut by the contradictory actions.

It's somewhat different in the case of Trump, where contradictory actions are lacking. Now, if he had done great things in service of peace, but made an unfortunate statement, one might reasonably be inclined to give that single statement less credence. But that scenario doesn't accurately depict him. His expressions of hostility are often paired with acts of leadership that are supporting, not contradicting.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:52 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:I'm contrasting the outgoing speech of a president with all the things that president did(including laying the groundwork for the Vietnam war). In a deeds vs words comparison, we point out how the words are deeply undercut by the contradictory actions.
Fair enough.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:55 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Sure, but did he actually act on that quote while in power? I think what someone does trumps what they say.

Quite.

If you heard this speech, would you think it came from a right-winger or a flaming pinko commie?

...it means we believe in a union not just between the nations of the United Kingdom but between all of our citizens, every one of us, whoever we are and wherever we’re from.

That means fighting against the burning injustice that, if you’re born poor, you will die on average nine years earlier than others.

If you’re black, you’re treated more harshly by the criminal justice system than if you’re white.

If you’re a white, working-class boy, you’re less likely than anybody else in Britain to go to university.

If you’re at a state school, you’re less likely to reach the top professions than if you’re educated privately.

If you’re a woman, you will earn less than a man. If you suffer from mental health problems, there’s not enough help to hand.

If you’re young, you’ll find it harder than ever before to own your own home.

...when we take the big calls, we’ll think not of the powerful, but you. When we pass new laws, we’ll listen not to the mighty but to you. When it comes to taxes, we’ll prioritise not the wealthy, but you. When it comes to opportunity, we won’t entrench the advantages of the fortunate few. We will do everything we can to help anybody, whatever your background, to go as far as your talents will take you.

Yeah. It came from the present leader of the Tory party on her ascension to office, and, as you say, talk is cheap and actions mean everything...

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:09 pm UTC

I wouldn't say commie, but yeah, it does sound like a speech I could easily imagine a liberal giving.

Of course, politicians promising the world and not delivering is pretty much the way of things. Trump's made noises about a tax cut for the middle class. That seems like it would be a good idea, but I'm pretty skeptical about how it'll shake out in practice. The last one was a good deal for those at the higher end of the income chart. Safe money says that this'll be true again.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:19 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:I wouldn't say commie, but yeah, it does sound like a speech I could easily imagine a liberal giving.

This is something a liberal¹ said. Sang. Sort of.

Really, though, from a UK POV, the US political spectrum is somewhere off to one side and and on another level of weird. I'm sure you'd imagine the same, flip-wise, looking over from your direction.


¹ Or Liberal Democrat, but they're all pinko lefty trotskyite commies, to you, I'm sure. ;)

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:30 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:¹ Or Liberal Democrat, but they're all pinko lefty trotskyite commies, to you, I'm sure. ;)


I mean, if they're singing about politics, it's definitely some kind of leftist hippie nonsense. :D

Though I'd love to see presidential debates happen via song. There's some untapped potential in there, I know it, and frankly, US democracy is basically a reality television show anyways, so we might as well get the humor.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:41 pm UTC

Yablo wrote:
sardia wrote:https://www.npr.org/2018/10/25/660458533/suspicious-package-discovered-in-nycs-tribeca-area
Terrorism by alt right Nazis continues. Bomb count is up to 10 now as Biden and Robert Di nero are targeted. Trump blames the media, and his supporters blame false flag attempts.

Not all Trump supporters blame false flag attempts. Most Trump supporters I know personally actually happen to think that's a ridiculous idea, myself included. We won't know for sure until the person or people responsible are found, but it seems far more likely to be coming from the far right than the left.

There's no evidence pointing to Nazis that I've seen, though. Terrorism? Definitely. Alt-right? Very probably. Nazis? Inconclusive.

How is a Nazis different from alt right vs kkk? If a black antifa protester gets attacked by each one, how would you know the difference?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:50 pm UTC

sardia wrote:How is a Nazis different from alt right vs kkk? If a black antifa protester gets attacked by each one, how would you know the difference?


It's the same difference when a Jew is beaten up by a Neo-Nazi, a Islamic nutjob, and a New Black Panther.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:02 am UTC

Those wascally Wakandans…

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ijuin » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:28 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Soupspoon wrote:¹ Or Liberal Democrat, but they're all pinko lefty trotskyite commies, to you, I'm sure. ;)


I mean, if they're singing about politics, it's definitely some kind of leftist hippie nonsense. :D

Though I'd love to see presidential debates happen via song. There's some untapped potential in there, I know it, and frankly, US democracy is basically a reality television show anyways, so we might as well get the humor.


The political center in the UK, and in most of Europe, is to the left of the USA political center, so things that seem centrist to their voters would be center-left to near-left by standards of median American voters.

As to American politics being a reality show, it’s hilarious except for the part about how everyone is required to actually obey the screwballs-in-office.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zamfir » Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:49 am UTC

Soupspoon wrote:This is something a liberal¹ said. Sang. Sort of.

Nowadays, it was sort-of-sang by Facebook's Vice President For Global Affairs And Communication.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:54 am UTC

Yablo wrote:Not all Trump supporters blame false flag attempts. Most Trump supporters I know personally actually happen to think that's a ridiculous idea, myself included. We won't know for sure until the person or people responsible are found, but it seems far more likely to be coming from the far right than the left.
Right; the core of Trump's base doesn't believe this nonsense. The Trump supporters who do think this idea holds water only include such fringe nutjobs like Lou Dobbs (from Fox News), Candace Owens (from Turning Point USA), and Donald Trump Jr.

I think that last guy is some weirdo who passed out Trump flyers once or something? I'm not sure.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:37 am UTC

Trump responds to allegations that foreign powers spy on his unsecured iPhone by saying he rarely uses his unsecured iPhone.

He does this in a Twitter post that, like all the rest of his tweets, was literally posted from his unsecured iPhone.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:37 pm UTC

Remind me again, what was the complaint about Hillary's email server? The one that was located in a pizza shop in Benghazi or something.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby asoban » Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:58 pm UTC

I think it had something to do with classified information. A crime that doesn't require intent btw. Long as he doesn't put anything sensitive on the unsecured phone, I don't think it's a problem.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:05 pm UTC

asoban wrote:I think it had something to do with classified information. A crime that doesn't require intent btw. Long as he doesn't put anything sensitive on the unsecured phone, I don't think it's a problem.

No, the attack changes depending on who gets caught doing it. If she's using a private server, then she's hiding stuff. When Pence uses nonofficial servers, it's convenience. No big deal.
The whole point is the attacks on Hillary are hypocritical, but the important thing was it worked on her. It didn't work on Republicans. Instead Republicans lose on stuff like "I care about not billionaires" or "I'm not attacking your healthcare because I'm a heartless monster".
Some Republican had to air an ad just to say he's not a mean person in order to defend his repeal of aca vote.

PS he holds talks about his trade strategy with other billionaires. You know, "we will bluff on x but hold firm on y." The other countries are listening in to get an advantage.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:10 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:He does this in a Twitter post that, like all the rest of his tweets, was literally posted from his unsecured iPhone.

Question - how do people know this is posted from an iPhone? Like, I don't doubt that, but I don't know twitter enough.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby asoban » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:33 pm UTC

Question - how do people know this is posted from an iPhone? Like, I don't doubt that, but I don't know twitter enough.


Metadata that is sent with a tweet. Such as date, location, and type of device that sent it.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:00 pm UTC

asoban wrote:I think it had something to do with classified information. A crime that doesn't require intent btw. Long as he doesn't put anything sensitive on the unsecured phone, I don't think it's a problem.


Precisely. Anything being tweeted is meant for the public. That's a non-issue.

Obama was similarly big on an iphone if memory serves, and that also didn't matter.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:25 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Obama was similarly big on an iphone if memory serves, and that also didn't matter.


Your memory doesn't serve; it was a BlackBerry and he wasn't allowed an iPhone for security reasons.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby RealisticIdealist » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:38 pm UTC

Hey remember that administration memo redefining sex and gender? Now we get the pleasure of seeing it in action.

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out ... d_ms_fb_lw

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:54 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
Obama was similarly big on an iphone if memory serves, and that also didn't matter.


Your memory doesn't serve; it was a BlackBerry and he wasn't allowed an iPhone for security reasons.


Ah, fair. Yeah, you wouldn't want any sensitive comms going over a random iphone. But a twitter post definitely isn't private. The question's really if he uses it for anything but twitter. So, the twitter post is just meaningless.

Mutex
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:59 pm UTC

If the camera and microphone haven't been disabled, if someone gains control of the phone they could spy on him. And possibly also know his location at all times. An insecure device shouldn't be in the White House.

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The Great Hippo
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:18 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:If the camera and microphone haven't been disabled, if someone gains control of the phone they could spy on him. And possibly also know his location at all times. An insecure device shouldn't be in the White House.
Nevermind in the pocket of the biggest intel target in the fucking world.

Anyone who knows anything about cybersecurity and counter-intelligence is probably pulling their hair out at the intersection between "US president" and "carries and uses an unsecured phone". To describe this as an intelligence breach is an understatement.
Last edited by The Great Hippo on Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:20 pm UTC, edited 3 times in total.

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Soupspoon
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:19 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:An insecure device shouldn't be in the White House.

*insert obvious "Insecure President" punchline here*


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