US Military Facilities Child Rape

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Paul in Saudi
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US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby Paul in Saudi » Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:52 am UTC

You have a better, less alarmist way to say it? The New York Times reports that the US military has had a (at least informal) policy of looking the other way while our Afghan allies ass-rape little boys.

I am a retired army officer. I am outraged by this. This is not a reflection of Afghan culture, it is a reflection of our American and our military culture. The fault for this lays within us.

The US decided long ago that we were not fighting to overthrow the Afghan culture. We decided not to destroy the culture that sustains our enemies. This is dumb, and morally wrong.

I am not writing at my best, I am sputtering with rage.




http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/world/us-outrage-and-resignation-over-afghans-rape-of-boys.html?_r=0

leady
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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby leady » Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:01 pm UTC

So as usual the US military is damned either way.

As a non-cultural relativist I have no qualms about the military stamping this crap out - sensitivities be damned - but you just know that if they did suppress this the headline would be "US military suppressing gays" instead.

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby elasto » Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:17 pm UTC

With the proviso that I haven't read the article, and maybe I should, there's a more fundamental issue (if that's possible) that's this: What was the goal of the original invasion?

- Arresting or killing those responsible for planning and funding 9/11? Very doable
- Overthrowing the governing regime and replacing it with one that believes in Western liberal values? Umm, a pretty damn tough ask. What happens when we impose a democracy but the populace vote in fundamentalist or corrupt politicians..?
- Overthrowing the governing regime and replacing the whole culture and ethos of Afghanistan with Western liberal values? Umm wtf? Maybe if we literally fill every post from the government to the police to the teachers with Westerners for two or three generations there'd be a hope of succeeding...

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby Dauric » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:06 pm UTC

The thing is the practice is an ancient cultural one, which limits how much we as outsiders can really do about it.

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:11 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:The thing is the practice is an ancient cultural one, which limits how much we as outsiders can really do about it.


It is their culture to assault young children. And ours is to kill rapists. Let them practice their culture, and we shall practice ours.

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:55 pm UTC

Do the Taliban oppose child rapists too? If so, maybe we could switch sides?

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:15 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Do the Taliban oppose child rapists too? If so, maybe we could switch sides?


Eh, afraid not. I'd link, but seriously, googling this sounds like a great way to end up on watchlists, and really, I don't need that kind of a downer anyway.

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby Chen » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:17 pm UTC

In this particular case the OP's article did mention the practice was forbidden by the Taliban. That said it didn't magically make it disappear or anything, just drove it underground. And I can imagine there are hypocrits within the Taliban who probably followed the practice anyways, just like there are hypocrits in many organizations like this.

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Paul in Saudi
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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby Paul in Saudi » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:18 pm UTC

Afghan culture has made little but war, trouble and opium for centuries. They have certainly earned us moving in and making them rich, healthy and civilized. Look at the example of South Korea.

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby morriswalters » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:33 pm UTC

Don't like our allies? The enemy of our enemy thing has allied us with many assholes. Ask yourself why Iran hates us. We wanted missiles so badly after WW2 that we let a German who helped develop the V2 lead our space program. A member of both the party and the SS.

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:35 pm UTC

That sounds like a logically sound reason to never attempt change in any of our allies in the future. :roll:

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby Diemo » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:47 pm UTC

leady wrote:So as usual the US military is damned either way.

As a non-cultural relativist I have no qualms about the military stamping this crap out - sensitivities be damned - but you just know that if they did suppress this the headline would be "US military suppressing gays" instead.


What the actual fuck? There is a big difference between being gay and being a pedophile, and thinking they are the same is (imo) extremely homophobic!
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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby morriswalters » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:59 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:That sounds like a logically sound reason to never attempt change in any of our allies in the future. :roll:
We don't change allies. We use them. When we want to change them to our liking we bomb them back to the stone age and then occupy them for 10 or so years and they turn into economic superpowers. Of course both were coherent societies before that. Hows that working in Afghanistan?

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby wumpus » Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:38 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Do the Taliban oppose child rapists too? If so, maybe we could switch sides?


Opposing this type of thing is how they got there initial foothold in Afghanistan. On the other other hand, they used to be against opium production (and received support and payments from the US fight up to 9/11 for such), but now seem to be for it. As far as I know, only President Carter seemed to have a policy of not nurturing future enemies while in office.

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby leady » Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:52 pm UTC

Diemo wrote:
leady wrote:So as usual the US military is damned either way.

As a non-cultural relativist I have no qualms about the military stamping this crap out - sensitivities be damned - but you just know that if they did suppress this the headline would be "US military suppressing gays" instead.


What the actual fuck? There is a big difference between being gay and being a pedophile, and thinking they are the same is (imo) extremely homophobic!


You understand that the comment is about the western media's representation right?

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby Mutex » Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:01 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Dauric wrote:The thing is the practice is an ancient cultural one, which limits how much we as outsiders can really do about it.


It is their culture to assault young children. And ours is to kill rapists. Let them practice their culture, and we shall practice ours.


Where are you going to practise your culture? In your own country, or theirs? If the latter, can they come to the US and rape boys?

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby morriswalters » Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:49 pm UTC

Trigger Warning
Evidently this isn't new. Spoilered, for lack of a better phrase, for disgust. From the Wikipedia.
Spoiler:
In a 2013 Vice Media, Inc. documentary titled "This Is What Winning Looks Like", British independent film-maker Ben Anderson describes the systematic kidnapping, sexual enslavement and murder of young men and boys by local security forces in the Afghan city of Sangin. The film depicts several scenes of Anderson along with American military personal describing how difficult it is to work with the Afghan police considering the blatant molestation and rape of local youth. The documentary also contains footage of an American military advisor confronting the then acting Police Chief on the abuse after a young boy is shot in the leg after trying to escape a police barrack. When the marine suggests that the barracks be searched for children, and that any policeman found to be engaged in pedophilia be arrested and jailed, the high-ranking officer insists what occurs between the security forces and the boys is consensual, saying "[the boys] like being there and giving their asses at night." He went on to claim that this practice was historic and necessary. "If [my commanders] don't fuck the asses of those boys, what should they fuck? The pussies of their own Grandmothers?"[29]

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby PeteP » Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:53 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
Dauric wrote:The thing is the practice is an ancient cultural one, which limits how much we as outsiders can really do about it.


It is their culture to assault young children. And ours is to kill rapists. Let them practice their culture, and we shall practice ours.


Where are you going to practise your culture? In your own country, or theirs? If the latter, can they come to the US and rape boys?

Culture whatever, culture doesn't matter all that much (well to others it does from my viewpoint I mean) it all comes down to morality. Of course policing another country has many potential problems in general. And what matters is that something having cultural background changes the consequences of interfering, it makes it less likely that the population there backs you and more likely that it leads to resentment or backslash. (I'm speaking in general not about this case specifically.) Point is trying to stop cultural practices isn't problematic because it's their culture and you don't interfere with other cultures (out of the view of someone who doesn't consider culture as something worth preserving in itself, I know other people view it in other ways), it's because forcefully interfering in cultural matters of another country can be a hot mess. (Also the general reasons you don't force something on other countries with an army without very good reasons.)

Though talking about the actual topic, I doubt this practice has broad support in the population so my points are probably moot. So what was even my point?…

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:49 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
Dauric wrote:The thing is the practice is an ancient cultural one, which limits how much we as outsiders can really do about it.


It is their culture to assault young children. And ours is to kill rapists. Let them practice their culture, and we shall practice ours.


Where are you going to practise your culture? In your own country, or theirs? If the latter, can they come to the US and rape boys?


Going to other people's countries and killing them is a well established part of our culture!

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby sardia » Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:38 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Mutex wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
Dauric wrote:The thing is the practice is an ancient cultural one, which limits how much we as outsiders can really do about it.


It is their culture to assault young children. And ours is to kill rapists. Let them practice their culture, and we shall practice ours.


Where are you going to practise your culture? In your own country, or theirs? If the latter, can they come to the US and rape boys?


Going to other people's countries and killing them is a well established part of our culture!

Let's be fair, is a part of everyone's culture. Your ancestors didn't get here by being pacifists.

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby Dr34m(4+(h3r » Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:48 pm UTC

We haven't brought any new gods back home though, which is disappointing. Why even have war if you can't steal other people's gods?

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby sardia » Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:53 pm UTC

Dr34m(4+(h3r wrote:We haven't brought any new gods back home though, which is disappointing. Why even have war if you can't steal other people's gods?

What makes you think we haven't? Did you really think the original Israelites had Christmas trees? Or Santa? Those are druidic and African gods respectively. All the saints were local gods. And angels and demons were cribbed from Zoroastrians.

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby Dr34m(4+(h3r » Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:55 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Dr34m(4+(h3r wrote:We haven't brought any new gods back home though, which is disappointing. Why even have war if you can't steal other people's gods?

What makes you think we haven't? Did you really think the original Israelites had Christmas trees? Or Santa? Those are druidic and African gods respectively. All the saints were local gods. And angels and demons were cribbed from Zoroastrians.


So you're saying the most authentically pagan religion in this year 2015 is Catholicism? But...I'm not allowed to be catholic ;_;

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:54 am UTC

Also, Para Deeza (paradise), the place you go to for worshiping the good god.

Really, Zoroastrianism is such an interesting religion because of history. Honestly, I think the real reason it's not taught in schools is because all the later religions look laughable as a result.

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby curtis95112 » Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:49 pm UTC

I mean, this is kind of understandable. If you need the cooperation of horrible people to stop something even more horrible, you let them stay being horrible, at least for the time being.

That being said,

One of the soldiers was relieved of his command and then left the military, and the other is being forced out.


This is ridiculous coming from the country that presided over the Nuremberg trials.
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
Роберт wrote:Sure, but at least they hit the intended target that time.

Well, if you shoot enough people, you're bound to get the right one eventually.

Thats the best description of the USA ever.

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:35 pm UTC

curtis95112 wrote:I mean, this is kind of understandable. If you need the cooperation of horrible people to stop something even more horrible, you let them stay being horrible, at least for the time being.


You are assuming that the Taliban are worse than child rapists. That's a pretty big assumption. And to an outsider, all they see is that the US is backing the child rapists, so it's probably a bigger recruitment drive for the Salafi-Jihadis than Guantanamo.

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby curtis95112 » Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:24 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
curtis95112 wrote:I mean, this is kind of understandable. If you need the cooperation of horrible people to stop something even more horrible, you let them stay being horrible, at least for the time being.


You are assuming that the Taliban are worse than child rapists. That's a pretty big assumption.


Honestly, I'm pretty sure that the Taliban are better than the child rapists. But I'm sure the people letting the child rape slide think otherwise.

And to an outsider, all they see is that the US is backing the child rapists, so it's probably a bigger recruitment drive for the Salafi-Jihadis than Guantanamo.


I wholeheartedly agree.
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
Роберт wrote:Sure, but at least they hit the intended target that time.

Well, if you shoot enough people, you're bound to get the right one eventually.

Thats the best description of the USA ever.

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby morriswalters » Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:40 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
curtis95112 wrote:I mean, this is kind of understandable. If you need the cooperation of horrible people to stop something even more horrible, you let them stay being horrible, at least for the time being.


You are assuming that the Taliban are worse than child rapists. That's a pretty big assumption. And to an outsider, all they see is that the US is backing the child rapists, so it's probably a bigger recruitment drive for the Salafi-Jihadis than Guantanamo.
Which is better typhoid or cholera? Remind me why we didn't just bomb them back into the stone age?

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby sardia » Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:46 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:
curtis95112 wrote:I mean, this is kind of understandable. If you need the cooperation of horrible people to stop something even more horrible, you let them stay being horrible, at least for the time being.


You are assuming that the Taliban are worse than child rapists. That's a pretty big assumption. And to an outsider, all they see is that the US is backing the child rapists, so it's probably a bigger recruitment drive for the Salafi-Jihadis than Guantanamo.
Which is better typhoid or cholera? Remind me why we didn't just bomb them back into the stone age?

Someone here doesn't know that afghanistan used to be a very cosmopolitan place before it was bombed into the stone age, which leads directly to our current predicament. But yea, let's bomb them some more into the stone age. How about the tool age?

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby morriswalters » Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:39 pm UTC

Somebody doesn't care. Had we done it the Taliban might have taken the message and done bin Laden. Head on a spike so to speak. Which was the point. No war casualties. No consorting with child rapists. I don't care if they want to rape boys. I care that we became complicit.

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby wumpus » Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:46 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Someone here doesn't know that afghanistan used to be a very cosmopolitan place before it was bombed into the stone age, which leads directly to our current predicament. But yea, let's bomb them some more into the stone age. How about the tool age?


Don't be so provincial. While Uncle Sam's preferred means of delivering widespread death is an airstrike, Ivan prefers artillery. The cosmopolitan Afghanistan of the 1970s was much more likely shelled into the stone age.

To be honest, I think this type of thing [child rape cultures] lasted well past the stone age, all the way to the medieval/renaissance steel making [by hand] ages. They can still pop up in modern tech as well :(.

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby Jave D » Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:05 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:Somebody doesn't care. Had we done it the Taliban might have taken the message and done bin Laden. Head on a spike so to speak. Which was the point. No war casualties. No consorting with child rapists. I don't care if they want to rape boys. I care that we became complicit.


Are you really saying that you wouldn't want our sterling international reputation to be tarnished by child rape, but the child rape itself is just, meh, whatever?

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby curtis95112 » Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:19 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:Somebody doesn't care. Had we done it the Taliban might have taken the message and done bin Laden. Head on a spike so to speak. Which was the point. No war casualties. No consorting with child rapists. I don't care if they want to rape boys. I care that we became complicit.


Who cares how some abstract measure of blame is distributed? Not the children being raped, that's for sure. I don't care who's doing the raping, as long as there's less of it.

Also, when's the last time bombing people to oblivion actually worked? The only case I can think of is WWII Japan. And that took nuclear weapons and a Soviet Union. If you're unwilling to go that far, chances are you'll end up with a clusterfuck like Vietnam.
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
Роберт wrote:Sure, but at least they hit the intended target that time.

Well, if you shoot enough people, you're bound to get the right one eventually.

Thats the best description of the USA ever.

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby morriswalters » Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:56 am UTC

Jave D wrote:Are you really saying that you wouldn't want our sterling international reputation to be tarnished by child rape, but the child rape itself is just, meh, whatever?
I can't change the fact child rape exists, and neither can the force of the power the US exerts. It was there before we came and it will be going on after were gone. For that matter it is here in the US. Where we hound you for the rest of your natural life if you get caught. If we accept it as part of the process in Afghanistan, then it makes us two faced to whine about it here. Either it is important as it seems to be or it isn't.

curtis95112 wrote:Also, when's the last time bombing people to oblivion actually worked? The only case I can think of is WWII Japan. And that took nuclear weapons and a Soviet Union. If you're unwilling to go that far, chances are you'll end up with a clusterfuck like Vietnam.
If the idea in Afghanistan was to shut down Al Qaeda training camps it could have been done by leaving the Taliban in power and letting them know the cost for letting the camps remain open. As it was we didn't accomplish our goals on any level. We had to send in special teams to kill Osama, and the Taliban are still able to contest for the country. It could well end just like Vietnam with the fall of the country back to the Taliban.

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby curtis95112 » Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:58 am UTC

Nobody expects to completely eliminate child rape. But we can reduce it. I should not have to make this point. You are being willfully obtuse.

As for the second point, I still don't see how more bombs is a solution. What was the purpose of attacking Afghanistan and how is bombing them into the stone age a good solution?
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
Роберт wrote:Sure, but at least they hit the intended target that time.

Well, if you shoot enough people, you're bound to get the right one eventually.

Thats the best description of the USA ever.

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby elasto » Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:45 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:If we accept it as part of the process in Afghanistan, then it makes us two faced to whine about it here. Either it is important as it seems to be or it isn't.

It's not that it's not important everywhere, it's that, as hard as it is to stomach, there are some values even more paramount to Westerners than child rape. Namely democracy and the rule of law.

Respecting the rule of law means letting the local justice systems either succeed or fail in addressing the crimes - unless they ask for our help of course.
Democracy means not usurping the local seat of power; We are not the rulers in Afghanistan, we are the guests of their elected rulers. They are the ones accountable for any crimes they collectively and corruptly turn a blind eye to.

Sure, we could enact a military takeover (again). But unless we want to attempt to run the country indefinitely, at some point we have to let them succeed or fail for themselves.

It took the West how many generations to form the ethical systems we have today? For how many centuries did we treat some classes of humans as inferior to others? And, in the far future, how barbaric will our present day actions and beliefs seem to our descendants - in ways we probably can't even imagine right now?

Sadly there are no shortcuts here.

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby HES » Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:00 pm UTC

elasto wrote:For how many centuries did we treat some classes of humans as inferior to others?

When did we stop?
He/Him/His Image

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby morriswalters » Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:33 pm UTC

curtis95112 wrote:Nobody expects to completely eliminate child rape. But we can reduce it. I should not have to make this point. You are being willfully obtuse.

As for the second point, I still don't see how more bombs is a solution. What was the purpose of attacking Afghanistan and how is bombing them into the stone age a good solution?
In terms of the bombing I was speaking of the past. Had we used shock and awe to make the Taliban understand that the cost of supporting Al Qaeda was more than they might be prepared to pay then they might have done our work for us. We are far past that. Of course there are air strikes currently ongoing in an attempt to free a city that the Taliban have overrun. So we are bombing them anyway.

As to your first point, explain to me how the military attempted to reduce those rapes. I am perfectly prepared to let the Afghani's work this out themselves. In the end they have to if it is going to end. Having said that, you might wish to spend money on a military that would turn a blind eye to this, or a government that would allow it. I don't. If Obama was aware of this then in my eyes he was complicit. And if he wasn't than he should have been, and he's incompetent.
elasto wrote:It's not that it's not important everywhere, it's that, as hard as it is to stomach, there are some values even more paramount to Westerners than child rape. Namely democracy and the rule of law.
The rules of law requires a society stable enough to be able to pay the costs associated with it, and unafraid enough to be willing to take a stand. Turning a blind eye to this kind of behavior shows neither. I don't want to enforce a democracy on Afghanistan or any other political system. I don't want to enforce their law. Neither do I wish to support a society that can't or won't on its own.

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby elasto » Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:02 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:The rules of law requires a society stable enough to be able to pay the costs associated with it, and unafraid enough to be willing to take a stand. Turning a blind eye to this kind of behavior shows neither. I don't want to enforce a democracy on Afghanistan or any other political system. I don't want to enforce their law. Neither do I wish to support a society that can't or won't on its own.

Which takes me back to my first post: What's the point of us being there? What are we actually looking to achieve, in concrete terms? And are we willing to pay the price to achieve that?

Without a clearly defined goal it's not clear which actions further it and which ones detract from it...

Spoiler:
What was the goal of the original invasion?

- Arresting or killing those responsible for planning and funding 9/11? Very doable
- Overthrowing the governing regime and replacing it with one that believes in Western liberal values? Umm, a pretty damn tough ask. What happens when we impose a democracy but the populace vote in fundamentalist or corrupt politicians..?
- Overthrowing the governing regime and replacing the whole culture and ethos of Afghanistan with Western liberal values? Umm wtf? Maybe if we literally fill every post from the government to the police to the teachers with Westerners for two or three generations there'd be a hope of succeeding...

Sounds like you and I agree the politicians picked the wrong goal (if they picked a goal at all...)

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Re: US Military Facilities Child Rape

Postby jewish_scientist » Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:27 pm UTC

The idea that an action can be legal in one culture but illegal in another because of cultural differences is a very complicated one. It really strikes at the fundamental problems that can arise from cultural interactions. Rather than writing out several paragraphs about morality, human nature and interpersonal responsibility, I am just going quote the article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/world/us-outrage-and-resignation-over-afghans-rape-of-boys.html?_r=0 wrote:Though some Americans have tried to write off the practice of raping boys, which was described in an article in The New York Times on Monday, as a cultural difference between Afghans and Westerners, many Afghans say that they, too, find it shameful and wrong.



There is another problem that the article addresses; Afghan officials ignore reports on this matter, so how can America stop and punish the rapists. Really, it is not America's job to enforce basic morality in other countries and ensure the protection of basic human rights; that is the U.N.'s job. When American officers realized that the Afghan government will not do anything, they should have sent the reports to the U.N., with the additional note that a similar report was sent to the local government and no action was taken.


sardia wrote:Did you really think the original Israelites had Christmas trees? Or Santa?

Modern Israelites do not have Christmas trees or believe in Santa; modern Christians do.
Last edited by jewish_scientist on Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:03 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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