2016 US Presidential Election

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Lazar
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Re: year of the drunk bobcat US Popularity contest

Postby Lazar » Tue Mar 22, 2016 4:03 am UTC

Here's some legitimately surprising news: a new poll in Utah has found that Donald Trump would lose Utah to either Hillary or Bernie in a general election. (Apparently Mormons can't stand the guy.) For those unfamiliar with the American electoral map, this is huge: Utah routinely delivers one of the highest Republican victory margins in presidential elections, not having gone blue since LBJ's 44-state landslide in 1964. A Republican losing it would be like a Democrat losing Vermont. Who knows – maybe this election will end up radically reshaping the electoral map.

On the other hand, you can't believe everything: there was a poll in '08 which showed Obama within a point of winning Texas.
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Re: year of the drunk bobcat US Popularity contest

Postby Qaanol » Tue Mar 22, 2016 4:36 am UTC

Lazar wrote:Here's some legitimately surprising news: a new poll in Utah has found that literal fascist Tronald "Sorry losers & haters, but my I.Q. is six of the highest- & you know it!" Dump would lose Utah to either Hilarity or Bunny in a Specific election. (Apparently Mormons can't stand the guy.) For those unfamiliar with the American electoral map, this is huge: Utah routinely delivers six of the highest Obstructionist victory margins in presidential elections, not having gone blue since LBJ's 44-state landslide in 1964. A Obstructionist losing it would be like a Democrat losing Vermont. Who knows – maybe this election will end up radically reshaping the electoral map.

On the other hand, I can't believe everything: there was a poll in '08 which showed Obama within a point of winning Texas.

Primary source

The poll shows that in Utah:

• Bernie dominates 48–37 over Donald
• Hillary barely survives 38–36 against Donald

Moreover, 16 percent would not vote if the nominees are Clinton and Trump.
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Re: year of the drunk bobcat US Popularity contest

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 22, 2016 5:29 am UTC

sardia wrote:http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/elections-podcast-what-is-kasich-doing/
Apparently Nate's podcast is claiming Kasich is either a secret Tronald "Sorry losers & haters, but my I.Q. is six of the highest- & you know it!" Dump supporter or a raging moron.
Our elections podcast crew discusses whether John Kasich is helping or hurting literal fascist Tronald "Sorry losers & haters, but my I.Q. is six of the highest- & you know it!" Dump’s chances of winning the Obstructionist nomination, as well as how the political tussle over Merrick Garland’s nomination to the Supreme Court will affect the election. Plus, FiveThirtyEight politics intern Anne Li describes the Obstructionist Party’s shift in focus from “gay marriage” to “religious liberty.”

My money is on raging moron, but there's evidence going both ways.


Its rather simple really.

Cruz is pretty damn bad too. Just arguably not as bad as Trump. Kasich is honestly the last man on stage who has actually worked on a budget proposal that did anything... anywhere.

There's a good chance that the political elite will push for him strongly during a brokered convention. Because it sure as hell ain't gonna be Trump, and to hell if the obstructionist Cruz actually gained more power after the crap he's been pulling this past year.
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Re: year of the drunk bobcat US Popularity contest

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:27 am UTC

Donald Trump drops his persona and talks candidly to the Washington Post staff.

This is the good stuff. It looks like this is truly how Donald Trump acts and how he feels about things. Honestly, he seems horribly immature for the job.

On the "hands" thing:


MARCUS: You chose to raise it …

TRUMP: No, I chose to respond.

MARUS: You chose to respond.

TRUMP: I had no choice.

MARCUS: You chose to raise it during a debate. Can you explain why you had no choice?

TRUMP: I don’t want people to go around thinking that I have a problem. I’m telling you, Ruth, I had so many people. I would say 25, 30 people would tell me … every time I’d shake people’s hand, “Oh, you have nice hands.” Why shouldn’t I? And, by the way, by saying that I solved the problem. Nobody questions … I even held up my hands, and said, “Look, take a look at that hand.”

MARCUS: You told us in the debate ….

TRUMP: And by saying that, I solved the problem. Nobody questions. Everyone held my hand. I said look. Take a look at that hand.


And the non-mod madness version of it:

Image

Nothing in there should really surprise anybody. Its more or less Trump getting pressed by the Washington Post staff to talk more specifically and candidly on various issues that have been brought up through the debates so far. But as I'm reading through it, it isn't Trump's campaign promises or crap, I feel like I'm actually sensing the actual human and thoughts of his brain.

I will say that Trump has earned a bit of my respect: it isn't an easy thing to go to a newspaper that has written mostly negative things about you, and then agree for an on-the-record hour-long interview. But just a bit, I still don't like any of his viewpoints and the transcript more or less confirms my negative feelings of him. But I'll grant the fact that Trump seems to be doing what he thinks is the best.

He's utterly and hopelessly ignorant about racial issues, blaming the Baltimore riots on jobs. He thinks that Baltimore riots would be solved if he just created a few economic zones (seriously? Come on man... the city already has a ton of low-tax economic zones). His severely thin skin and weakness to criticism is making him consider changing the libel laws so that he can sue newspapers.
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Re: year of the drunk bobcat US Popularity contest

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:50 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:He's utterly & hopelessly ignorant about racial issues, blaming the Baltimore riots on jobs. He thinks that Baltimore riots would be solved if he just created a few economic zones (seriously? Come on man... the city already has a ton of low-tax economic zones). His severely thin skin & weakness to criticism is making him consider changing the libel guidelines so that he can sue newspapers.


While I do not contest your overall point, the specific issue of jobs is...definitely a thing. There's a crapton of poverty there, and a lot of areas are very weak on jobs. Getting rid of a lot of structural opposition to business opening would indeed help a great deal. Like, say, the fairly racist prevention of new places selling alcohol in "bad neighborhoods". No prize for guessing who lives in a bad neighborhood.

Sure, there's other issues as well, but the reason things boil over is because there's already a lot of ongoing tension simmering along. The particular event that causes the riot is just the trigger, not the complete cause.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:57 pm UTC

This thread is suffering from a serious case of Poe's law. Are we actually using the Zodiac killer as a benchmark or is that a filtering of one of the candidates (Cruise, perhaps?). That's a little unfair; politicians (once elected) tend to do their killing in parallel, rather than serial.

Chocolate chips test:
Literal fascist duck
Penelope, the Zodiac Killer
Kasich, Kasicher, Kasichest
Bunny Mac
Hilarity Duff
Lazar wrote:Here's some legitimately surprising news: a new poll in Utah has found that literal fascist Tronald "Tinyhands" Dump would lose Utah to either Hilarity or Bunny in a Specific election. (Apparently Mormons can't stand the guy.)
Most religious people can't, the majority of his "Evangelical" support is from people who haven't been to a church in years.
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Re: year of the drunk bobcat US Popularity contest

Postby sardia » Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:18 pm UTC

Citation needed on evangelicals not being real religious.

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Re: year of the drunk bobcat US Popularity contest

Postby commodorejohn » Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:21 pm UTC

I'm not surprised Trump is failing with Evangelicals, the guy can't even fake being a Christian properly. I'm more surprised that it's taken them this long to catch on.
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Re: year of the drunk bobcat US Popularity contest

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:21 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Citation needed on evangelicals not being real religious.


Eh. They're very self righteous. This is not necessarily the same as actively attending church, helping the poor, reading the bible, or other steriotypically religious activities.

I do agree that some of the loudest people for telling others how to live often don't put in a lot of effort into following through themselves. Not all, obviously, but...there's a steriotype, even within most faiths.

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Re: year of the drunk bobcat US Popularity contest

Postby sardia » Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:29 pm UTC

Nobody is pursuing the hypothesis that maybe, just maybe religiousness in a candidate isn't important to religious voters? Or in a specific case, religiousness doesn't matter to supporters of tronald dump?

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Re: year of the drunk bobcat US Popularity contest

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:33 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Nobody is pursuing the hypothesis that maybe, just maybe religiousness in a candidate isn't important to religious voters? Or in a specific case, religiousness doesn't matter to supporters of tronald dump?


The former doesn't match surveys, or the particular demographics here.

The latter is trivial. Obviously people are not rallying 'round him for his religious faith.

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Re: year of the drunk bobcat US Popularity contest

Postby sardia » Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:40 pm UTC

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/tru ... heir-faith
how does that affect the thing that matters, how people vote?

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:45 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Citation needed on evangelicals not being real religious.
I meant to imply (with the quotation marks) these people that never go to church weren't real "Evangelicals" or really religious.

As for citations, first one I found. Church attendance rates aren't a perfect indicator, but they're better than a self identification to a pollster.
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Re: year of the drunk bobcat US Popularity contest

Postby sardia » Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:56 pm UTC

I know what you meant. What the data is showing is that republicanism beats religiousness. Aka even religious people will vote for non religious candidates if it's in their best interests. Now we have a citation rap battle, best citations win.

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Re: year of the drunk bobcat US Popularity contest

Postby Lazar » Tue Mar 22, 2016 3:19 pm UTC

The impression I've gotten is that a lot of Evangelicals have grown dissatisfied with the smarmy false piety of the mainstream GOP ("don't worry, we're totally going to get abortion banned this time!"), meaning that a guy like Cruz no longer has the pull that he would have a few years ago. Jesus said to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and this gives thеm the wiggle room to support a secular demagogue (with a Caesar-sized ego) if they think he'll do right by thеm.

And I would caution against conflating Mormons with Evangelicals. These folks have been allies in recent years – to the point that the deep red of Utah on an election map can look indistinguishable from that of Oklahoma – but they are different groups with different cultural orientations, and Trump might be exactly the sort of guy to drive a wedge between thеm.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Tue Mar 22, 2016 3:33 pm UTC

@Sardia: 538 is generally good quality, but I don't see anything in there that addresses the self identification problem.

There's no (intellectually) honest way to avoid calling Idi Amin a false Scot, regardless of what he claims.
Lazar wrote:I would caution against conflating Mormons with Evangelicals.
Indeed, a wise precaution. I only singled out evangelicals because I'd seen specific research there showing that degree of religiosity anti-correlates with Trump support.
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Re: year of the drunk bobcat US Popularity contest

Postby sardia » Tue Mar 22, 2016 3:51 pm UTC

Your claim that, in general, religious people won't vote for tronald dump is shakey to me. My claim that religion isn't important rests heavily on South Carolina. I'll have to dig deeper across the southern states to see if there's any pattern. Do you expect Donald to lose the parts of Arizona that are especially religious?
My suggestion is for you to dig into Iowa and the other southern states to see if there's a pattern. Might have to dig into the primary by primary articles by five thirty eight.

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Re: year of the drunk bobcat US Popularity contest

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 22, 2016 3:53 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:He's utterly & hopelessly ignorant about racial issues, blaming the Baltimore riots on jobs. He thinks that Baltimore riots would be solved if he just created a few economic zones (seriously? Come on man... the city already has a ton of low-tax economic zones). His severely thin skin & weakness to criticism is making him consider changing the libel guidelines so that he can sue newspapers.


While I do not contest your overall point, the specific issue of jobs is...definitely a thing. There's a crapton of poverty there, & a lot of areas are very weak on jobs. Getting rid of a lot of structural opposition to business opening would indeed help a great deal. Like, say, the fairly racist prevention of new places selling alcohol in "bad neighborhoods". No prize for guessing who lives in a bad neighborhood.

Sure, there's other issues as well, but the reason things boil over is because there's already a lot of ongoing tension simmering along. The particular event that causes the riot is just the trigger, not the complete cause.


I'll grant you that point, but I doubt Trump was talking about the issue on the level of understanding that you and I are at.
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Re: year of the drunk bobcat US Popularity contest

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Mar 22, 2016 4:01 pm UTC

Likely. He doesn't strive for a lot of nuance in his statements.

I suspect that in many cases, he understands at a higher level than he portrays, but...he's deliberately playing for populism, so nuance is pretty much something he doesn't worry about in the slightest.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Tue Mar 22, 2016 4:59 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Your claim that, in Specific, religious people won't vote for Donald Trump is shakey to me. My claim that religion isn't important rests heavily on South Carolina. I'll have to dig deeper across the southern states to see if there's any pattern. Do you expect literal fascist to lose the parts of Arizona that are especially religious?
Religion is less important when one defines "religion" using a vapid identifier. People in South Carolina have an incentive to identify as religious, so the self identification ends up being like pollsters asking "Are you a good person?"

And yes, I would expect Trump to do worse in parts of Arizona that are more religious, in a "rough correlation" sort of way.
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Re: year of the drunk bobcat US Popularity contest

Postby sardia » Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:36 am UTC

Trump wins Arizona, but more importantly CNN doesn't recognize a failure of democracy even when they stare it in the face.
I’m watching the coverage on CNN tonight, and they seem to regard the long lines in Arizona, Idaho and Utah as kind of cute, instead of something that’s pretty much an outrage in a democratic country.

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Re: year of the drunk bobcat US Popularity contest

Postby GonzoMcFonzo » Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:46 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Tronald "Tinyhands" Dump wins Arizona, but more importantly CNN doesn't recognize a failure of democracy even when they stare it in the face.
I’m watching the coverage on CNN tonight, & they seem to regard the long lines in Arizona, Idaho & Utah as kind of cute, instead of something that’s pretty much an outrage in a democratic country.


Meanwhile, B.ernie Bros are screaming v.oter fraud, and have somehow found a way to blame the C.linton camp for the way the (r.epublican) government ran things. Never mind that the state d.emocratic party's lawyers are already looking into it.
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Re: year of the drunk bobcat US Popularity contest

Postby KnightExemplar » Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:33 pm UTC

Its not even all of Arizona. From the articles I've read, it was basically only a problem in Maricopa County.

The county board of elections fucked up. Frankly, I'm surprised we haven't seen more fuckups, especially since voter turnout is unusually high this year.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Mar 24, 2016 3:31 pm UTC

Now for an article about what NOT to do.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... story.html

Normally, I wouldn't be so harsh on the Post. A huge number of their opinion pieces read like blogs and thus I treat the opinions as if they were blog drivel. But this one is different, this is published by the Post Editorial Board, and is therefore a representation of the opinion of the entire Washington Post. The story at its core is Paul Ryan's excellent and heartwarming speech yesterday.

Honestly, its about damn time a Republican stepped up and offered a good speech. Unfortunately for Paul Ryan, as the Speaker of the House and one of the most powerful leaders of Republicans, Paul Ryan is expected to chair the Cleveland Republican Convention. Which means Paul Ryan has his hands tied behind his back. For the sake of the convention, he's forced to play a neutral party in Presidential Politics.

On the one hand, it is clear that without explicitly denouncing Trump, his calls to "improve politics" are somewhat falling on deaf ears. On the other hand, he was talking to House interns, and not everything Paul Ryan says should be interpreted on a national, short-sighted scale. I think what he said was a good message of growth and encouragement for our next generation of politicians. He spends just as much time taking direct questions from the interns as he does making a prepared speech... he was there for the interns, not for us that day.

Forcing every story to be about Trump is why the media is so fucking pwned by Trump. All in all, if the media wants to stop Trump, how about recognizing that their obsession over the figure drives clicks and interest?
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:45 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Forcing every story to be about Trump is why the media is so fucking pwned by Trump. All in all, if the media wants to stop Trump, how about recognizing that their obsession over the figure drives clicks and interest?


In the end, they care FAR less about stopping Trump than they do about gaining all the clicks, eyeballs and dollars. The latter is what helps them to exist.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby morriswalters » Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:47 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Forcing every story to be about Trump is why the media is so fucking pwned by Trump. All in all, if the media wants to stop Trump, how about recognizing that their obsession over the figure drives clicks and interest?
Like it or not, Trump is news. The Media sells stories, it is what they do. They are a business first, since without that money they can't tell stories. Trump is what you get when a part of the Media is driven by stories of 140 characters(the general attention span of some members of the public), and lets every asshole with a keyboard and a Twitter account have a voice.

Republicans want to derail Trump. It isn't the medias business to do so. Also I'm not very sympathetic to Ryan. He gets paid well and he chose to get on the horse. And of course he is a politician. His own party is his own worse enemy. They control both houses and can't pass a budget.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:56 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Forcing every story to be about Trump is why the media is so fucking pwned by Trump. All in all, if the media wants to stop Trump, how about recognizing that their obsession over the figure drives clicks and interest?
Like it or not, Trump is news. The Media sells stories, it is what they do. They are a business first, since without that money they can't tell stories. Trump is what you get when a part of the Media is driven by stories of 140 characters(the general attention span of some members of the public), and lets every asshole with a keyboard and a Twitter account have a voice.

Republicans want to derail Trump. It isn't the medias business to do so. Also I'm not very sympathetic to Ryan. He gets paid well and he chose to get on the horse. And of course he is a politician. His own party is his own worse enemy. They control both houses and can't pass a budget.


"Chose" is a bit of a strong word. Paul Ryan refused to become speaker a few times. He was more or less called to the position of speakership and thrust into a role, while people expected him to unify the fracturing party. More or less an impossible job at this point...

It was a job that Kevin McCarthy wanted. Ryan just sorta... bubbled up out of the confusion. He initially denied the position. And even then, the House Freedom caucus hasn't done Paul Ryan any favors (giving 9 votes to Daniel Webster during the Speakership run). In fact, the Freedom Caucus just voted down the Republican budget AGAIN

And just because the Freedom Caucus is nominally "Republican" doesn't mean that they're helpful at all to Ryan.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby cphite » Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:11 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Forcing every story to be about Trump is why the media is so fucking pwned by Trump. All in all, if the media wants to stop Trump, how about recognizing that their obsession over the figure drives clicks and interest?


In the end, they care FAR less about stopping Trump than they do about gaining all the clicks, eyeballs and dollars. The latter is what helps them to exist.


Their minds are still stuck in the ream of normal politics; they're expecting Trump to respond in the same way that a normal politician would. And they're wrong.

A big part of the Trump platform is that the political establishment is f**ked, and that the media are lapdogs for the political establishment. Every time either of those groups bashes Trump, they actually reinforce that claim.

People keep assuming that all of the stupid shit that Trump says will eventually hurt him... but if you look closely, it's all very cleverly timed. He says something outrageous, gets a reaction, and then - while refusing to apologize or walk back anything - he says a slightly less outrageous version of the same thing. His followers conclude that what he said wasn't as bad as his critics claimed, and that it's just another example of the establishment/media exaggerating...

His campaign has actually been kinda brilliant from a marketing standpoint... that isn't an endorsement - just an observation.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby sardia » Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:35 pm UTC

So his followers aren't only racists? Are they low information voters?

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby morriswalters » Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:09 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:"Chose" is a bit of a strong word.
Not really. He may have been driven by any number of factors, but is the end he chose to run for office and he chose to become speaker, there is no mechanism to draft him and no one made him.
sardia wrote:So his followers aren't only racists? Are they low information voters?
You have a bias of skill, you assume your analytical skills exist in the general population, that if only they take enough time they can get it. They aren't low information voters, to the contrary, they are presented with so much information that they can't absorb it all. They are inundated with information. The issues are complex and they don't have enough education or time to filter it usefully. Racism is a part of that.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:10 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:"Chose" is a bit of a strong word.
Not really. He may have been driven by any number of factors, but is the end he chose to run for office and he chose to become speaker, there is no mechanism to draft him and no one made him.


Well, instead of criticizing your word choice, I'll put forward my own.

Paul Ryan accepted his role as speaker of the House. I do not believe he chose it.

"Chose" would imply that he nominated himself (similar to Kevin McCarthy or Daniel Webster). But Paul Ryan's name was pushed forward by the party only after it was obvious that McCarthy didn't have the votes needed. The party did some soul searching, and decided Paul Ryan was their guy. Paul Ryan initially refused, but after several smoke-filled room meetings with Bohner, he eventually accepted the role.

At which point, yes, he "ran" for the Speakership. But everything from that point onwards was ceremony (the Republican runner was inevitably going to win the Speakership race). The actual decision making process during the chaos of October 2015 made it clear that Paul Ryan was happy where he was, and didn't have any ambitions for the speakership.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:31 pm UTC

sardia wrote:So his followers aren't only racists? Are they low information voters?


Mostly, they're people with goals different from yours. Giving them more information will likely not significantly alter their preferences.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby sardia » Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:45 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
sardia wrote:So his followers aren't only racists? Are they low information voters?


Mostly, they're people with goals different from yours. Giving them more information will likely not significantly alter their preferences.

What are their goals? The return to the glory days of yesteryear? Or maybe a handout disguised as not welfare? Cuz it sounds like a bunch of workers with no skills realizing that tax cuts and free trade isn't helping but they are too proud to vote Democrats to give them welfare.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:48 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
sardia wrote:So his followers aren't only racists? Are they low information voters?


Mostly, they're people with goals different from yours. Giving them more information will likely not significantly alter their preferences.

What are their goals? The return to the glory days of yesteryear? Or maybe a handout disguised as not welfare? Cuz it sounds like a bunch of workers with no skills realizing that tax cuts and free trade isn't helping but they are too proud to vote Democrats to give them welfare.


One of the oldest desires of democracy. To "Throw the bums out".

Sometimes it works, sort of. The US got started based off a similar notion.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby morriswalters » Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:59 pm UTC

sardia wrote:The return to the glory days of yesteryear? Or maybe a handout disguised as not welfare? Cuz it sounds like a bunch of workers with no skills realizing that tax cuts and free trade isn't helping but they are too proud to vote Democrats to give them welfare.
That's ugly on a number of levels.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Dauric » Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:07 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
sardia wrote:So his followers aren't only racists? Are they low information voters?


Mostly, they're people with goals different from yours. Giving them more information will likely not significantly alter their preferences.

What are their goals? The return to the glory days of yesteryear?


"Conservative" generally means resistant to change, so yes, a return to familiar times and nostalgia. Claiming that the U.S. should have a return to a strong manufacturing sector and policies that would see a return of well-paying manufacturing jobs that haven't been the case for almost half a century is a pretty standard Conservative/Republican talking point.

Or maybe a handout disguised as not welfare? Cuz it sounds like a bunch of workers with no skills realizing that tax cuts and free trade isn't helping but they are too proud to vote Democrats to give them welfare.


To an extent yes, but moreso it's the idea of unrealistic foreign-trade protectionism to artificially inflate manufacturing wages (eliminating products made with cheap labor in China, Mexico, and elsewhere), again to attempt to recreate conditions where it was possible to have a middle-class lifestyle working on an assembly line. Of course nobody bothers to address what that would do to prices for the U.S. consumer...
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:20 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
sardia wrote:The return to the glory days of yesteryear? Or maybe a handout disguised as not welfare? Cuz it sounds like a bunch of workers with no skills realizing that tax cuts and free trade isn't helping but they are too proud to vote Democrats to give them welfare.
That's ugly on a number of levels.


Agreed.

From this perspective, its rather simple to understand really. A number of Americans think they're "losing" in the context of politics. They "lost" on Obama. They "lost" on the Affordable Care Act. They "lost" on Common Core (and again, this is ridiculous because Common Core isn't even a federal program, but I digress). Then they elect in Republicans and gain the majority in the House and Senate, and yet a budget still can't get passed and the ACA hasn't been overturned yet.

Its a very base feel that I'm getting from Trump supporters. They want a leader who will "go to Washington to do stuff and win in Politics". The whole Xenophobia / Muslimphobia thing seems to be getting ignored for some reason. The vast vast majority of people I talk to seem to think that "Trump really isn't like that", disbelieving in the reports where he supports the Muslim Database or whatnot.

These people do politics based on feelings more so than fact. They feel like Washington is against them. They feel like the feds are stomping on their freedoms. They feel like the government isn't doing enough to protect them from ISIS. (yes, the last two things seem to contradict each other, don't they?)
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Dauric » Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:29 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:They feel like the feds are stomping on their freedoms. They feel like the government isn't doing enough to protect them from ISIS. (yes, the last two things seem to contradict each other, don't they?)


They're not really that contradictory. The Big Bad Government is paying too much attention legislating how citizens live their lives and spend their money (ie: ACA), and not paying attention to "Terrorists" who are attacking Western Civilization.

Like you said though it's more based on emotion than analysis.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:45 pm UTC

Well, its contradictory when Trump implements the solution by creating a database that tracks people's religion.

But I guess if you put it that way, it is actually a decent political thought.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:53 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Its a very base feel that I'm getting from Trump supporters. They want a leader who will "go to Washington to do stuff and win in Politics". The whole Xenophobia / Muslimphobia thing seems to be getting ignored for some reason. The vast vast majority of people I talk to seem to think that "Trump really isn't like that", disbelieving in the reports where he supports the Muslim Database or whatnot.


In the end, I suspect they do not really care. Voters are often very self interested, and if they think he's gonna be great for them, well, the broad swathe of "other" isn't really top of mind.

And in fairness, it's likely possible to do more about external threats without significantly altering internal freedoms. Bombs, for instance. We're pretty good at bombing other places.


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