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Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:05 pm UTC
by kingofdreams
they still don't have a central bank, and won't be admitted unless the conditions for entry are appended by universal consent, however viable scotlands economy might be in the long term

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:21 pm UTC
by Diadem
The whole idea that Scotland would even have to reapply is pure political bullshit. There is zero reason to not accept them except bullying. Scotland is a member now. It doesn't affect the other member states in any significant way whether the UK is part of the EU as 1, 2, or a dozen political entities. The territory, economy, population, economic ties, etc, they are all still the same.

These European politicians profess a love for Europe and claim to love European integration. Well then you shouldnt care about the exact setup of member territories. It is really not very relevant. Would the US be very different if Texas was split into 2 states? Of course not.

Most of the doom scenarios about Scottish independence also assume Scotland would be kicked out of the EU, and NATO, and even not allowed into something like Schengen. Yeah not shit Sherlock. That is like a guy telling his wife leaving him would be a bad idea because if she does he is going to beat her up.

Also to make one point about the EU clear: There are no provisions about what happens if a member state splits. Deciding that rUK gets to stay but Scotland has to leave, or reapply, would be a purely political decision, not a legal one. Statements like "they wont be admitted unless" thus miss the point. If the other memberstates dont act like dicks they wont have to be admitted because they will never have left.

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:41 pm UTC
by Lazar
Regarding Schengen, I think the greater concern is that Scotland might be forced into it. Surely they would prefer to maintain the Common Travel Area with rUK and Ireland, right?

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:52 pm UTC
by 3fj
Lazar wrote:Regarding Schengen, I think the greater concern is that Scotland might be forced into it. Surely they would prefer to maintain the Common Travel Area with rUK and Ireland, right?

I can retain rUK citizenship. If Scotland is admitted to the Schengen zone, by what grounds am I kept out of rUK? I might need to remember ID, but that's no big deal.
As for the euro zone, i think they'd have something to say about us joining their currency, their joining requirements are laid out, and we don't meet the crucial ones for 2 years at best.

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:55 pm UTC
by kingofdreams
welcome to realpolitk calling it unfair doesn't circumvent the issue

anyway uk is the successor state its not splitting up into scotland and something else, scotland is seceding from the union, that union is a member of the European Union, there is no precedent for this with regards to the eu.

Although my understanding is that newly independent nations must apply to join the United Nation though their rump states were former members anyone know about this?

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:11 am UTC
by eSOANEM
Diadem wrote:Also to make one point about the EU clear: There are no provisions about what happens if a member state splits. Deciding that rUK gets to stay but Scotland has to leave, or reapply, would be a purely political decision, not a legal one. Statements like "they wont be admitted unless" thus miss the point. If the other memberstates dont act like dicks they wont have to be admitted because they will never have left.


It's not a purely political decision which would automatically stay. The difference being that between part of a nation declaring independence and a nation deciding to split into two. Besides, both parties have agreed that the rUK will be the successor state and carry out all obligations of the UK which would include EU membership.

An independent Scotland certainly should be allowed into the EU through some fast track purpose. Not doing so would be political chicanery. It would however almost certainly happen in the event of a yes vote. EU law does not cover states newly independent of member states and Spain is likely not to want to let things go any faster than they have to (although they'd probably find it difficult to get away with not ratifying a succession treaty should Scotland get that far). Yes this is bullying but it is the way it is and that isn't going to change before the polls close.

It doesn't matter that this isn't the way things should be (and I quite agree that it isn't), it is the choice Scotland has.

kingofdreams wrote:Although my understanding is that newly independent nations must apply to join the United Nation though their rump states were former members anyone know about this?


The wikipedia article for Kosovo says they haven't yet applied to the UN so I'd assume so (although that wasn't a peaceful, undisputed secession like this would be so might be different). The Czech and Slovak republics each had to apply for UN membership separately, but that was a case of a nation splitting rather than part of one seceding.

The closest analogy which has gone through the whole process were some of the former-yugoslavian states which split off and declared independence from Yugoslavia like Slovenia. They had to apply for UN membership. (Again though, this wasn't an entirely peaceful, undisputed secession).

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:24 am UTC
by 3fj
kingofdreams wrote:welcome to realpolitk calling it unfair doesn't circumvent the issue

Realpolitik advises that where red tape gets in the way, people find a way to cut through it. Remind me then which is more important, Spain's feelings or majority control of the European oil reserves, access to fishing for a number of member states and the international clusterfuck of stripping the living/working rights of European citizens?

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:42 am UTC
by kingofdreams
if by feelings you mean the existential threat to it and other EU members, including notably the seat of governance then I guess if we're very lucky/unlucky we'll find out soon enough.

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:58 am UTC
by Adacore
I have a Scottish father and an English mother. I work for a company that has its major offices in (well, near) London and Glasgow. Half my relatives live in Scotland, the other half in England (and not by the distribution you'd expect from my parents' origins - my father's sister lives near London and my mother's sister lives in Edinburgh). I have no idea how a 'yes' vote will affect me, but I have to imagine that it will have some kind of effect, if not in the short term then in the medium-long, and I can't see many ways in which that effect could be positive. The more I think about this, the angrier I get that I have no say in the issue. I consider myself British, but by a definition that includes both England and Scotland - I'm not even sure how to define my own nationality/identity if Scotland becomes independent.

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:37 am UTC
by Derek
Diadem wrote:Also to make one point about the EU clear: There are no provisions about what happens if a member state splits. Deciding that rUK gets to stay but Scotland has to leave, or reapply, would be a purely political decision, not a legal one. Statements like "they wont be admitted unless" thus miss the point. If the other memberstates dont act like dicks they wont have to be admitted because they will never have left.

There is an established theory of succession of states, and while it is on a certain level arbitrary, there is no doubt that rUK would be considered the successor to the UK, and as such a party to all the current UK's treaties and obligations, while Scotland would be a new state that may or may not automatically be a party to those treaties.

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:53 am UTC
by Djehutynakht
Derek wrote:
Diadem wrote:Also to make one point about the EU clear: There are no provisions about what happens if a member state splits. Deciding that rUK gets to stay but Scotland has to leave, or reapply, would be a purely political decision, not a legal one. Statements like "they wont be admitted unless" thus miss the point. If the other memberstates dont act like dicks they wont have to be admitted because they will never have left.

There is an established theory of succession of states, and while it is on a certain level arbitrary, there is no doubt that rUK would be considered the successor to the UK, and as such a party to all the current UK's treaties and obligations, while Scotland would be a new state that may or may not automatically be a party to those treaties.


It wouldn't even be a succession case. Two new states aren't being created. A new state of Scotland would be created, but the UK isn't changing at all--it's just losing Scotland.

(As opposed, to say, when the USSR split, ~15 states were created, and one of those states, Russia, was declared the "successor" and there was no USSR remaining).

Consider the case in reverse. When the US admitted new states, it wasn't considered to be a "new" country. It was the exact same country, just with some new territories.

Of course, since Scotland's, well, stuff (to put it very simply) is intertwined in the UK as a whole, the UK will simply have to decide (in collaboration with Scotland) what "stuff" to take out of the UK and give over to this new Scotland.

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:31 am UTC
by Tirian
Diadem wrote:The whole idea that Scotland would even have to reapply is pure political bullshit. There is zero reason to not accept them except bullying. Scotland is a member now. It doesn't affect the other member states in any significant way whether the UK is part of the EU as 1, 2, or a dozen political entities. The territory, economy, population, economic ties, etc, they are all still the same.


Do you think Scotland deserves a permanent seat on the UN Security Council?

Honestly, if Scots want to leave the UK because they think London is marginalizing them, then they should buckle up. Because an independent Scotland will be marginalized by every major nation in the world. If you think that SPAIN is a bully, then wait until your national interests are opposed to those of Germany or the United States. And those are your allies.

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:53 am UTC
by Djehutynakht
Tirian wrote:Do you think Scotland deserves a permanent seat on the UN Security Council?

Honestly, if Scots want to leave the UK because they think London is marginalizing them, then they should buckle up. Because an independent Scotland will be marginalized by every major nation in the world. If you think that SPAIN is a bully, then wait until your national interests are opposed to those of Germany or the United States. And those are your allies.



I doubt they'll be marginalized. They'll be the second country on the British Isles (thus, what they do is relevant to the UK). They've played a part in the international community's relations with the UK and the UK's relations with the international world.

Although, yes, they're going to see a reduction in their world status. They won't be part of a "world power" as they were with the UK. They'll have some significance, just not nearly as much as the UK as a whole.

Although I guess if one cares about independence that much, or believes that London's marginalization means few benefits from the UK's overall international status, then it might be worth it.

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:02 am UTC
by 3fj
Adacore wrote:I have a Scottish father and an English mother. I work for a company that has its major offices in (well, near) London and Glasgow. Half my relatives live in Scotland, the other half in England (and not by the distribution you'd expect from my parents' origins - my father's sister lives near London and my mother's sister lives in Edinburgh). I have no idea how a 'yes' vote will affect me, but I have to imagine that it will have some kind of effect, if not in the short term then in the medium-long, and I can't see many ways in which that effect could be positive. The more I think about this, the angrier I get that I have no say in the issue. I consider myself British, but by a definition that includes both England and Scotland - I'm not even sure how to define my own nationality/identity if Scotland becomes independent.


I'm in the same situation, and all I have to say on the terms of national identity is that your family aren't going to stop being your family out of nowhere.
As for not having a vote, to be honest, I'd be pretty upset if votes came in internationally. I mean, how do you distribute the vote to everyone who considers themselves Scottish? Why should I live in a country who's rules are decided by people who don't live here?

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:02 am UTC
by BattleMoose
I don't think anyone has suggested that Scotland should get a permanent seat on the UN security council? (Either which way its not going to happen)

I cannot imagine Scotland being denied joining the security council though, regardless of any shenanigans that anyone else might play. There is no grounds for it.

If foreign countries want to marginalise Scotland, then I guess that is a thing that can happen. But when Scotland's government is marginalising Scotland, its not a comparable issue.

Scotland has quite a lot to offer in terms of exports, so it does have negotiating leverage. And if Spain wants to embargo Scotland, fine, there are plenty of other trading partners. For the most part though, once the outrage has died down, I think the rest of Europe will realise that having Scotland in the EU and NATO would be mutually beneficial, assuming they don't think so immediately.

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:10 am UTC
by Djehutynakht
BattleMoose wrote:I think the rest of Europe will realise that having Scotland in the EU and NATO would be mutually beneficial, assuming they don't think so immediately.


True. Raging at Scotland really won't do the world much good at all. I mean, say, Spain might try to play messing with Scotland as a "this is a warning to all ye separatists that independence means you get screwed" thing, but it really won't do much good for the rest of the world. There's no major reason to not work with Scotland.

Plus, if people are worried about the devastation that separation would cause, they'll probably work to mitigate the damage.

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:18 am UTC
by bigglesworth
3fj wrote:all I have to say on the terms of national identity is that your family aren't going to stop being your family out of nowhere.
And that's the most useless irrelevant straw man that I've seen in the whole thread.

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:24 am UTC
by 3fj
bigglesworth wrote:
3fj wrote:all I have to say on the terms of national identity is that your family aren't going to stop being your family out of nowhere.
And that's the most useless irrelevant straw man that I've seen in the whole thread.

Strawman? He said "I'm worried about bad things for my family and my national identity". Might be I misinterpreted what was being said, but that's not a strawman.

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:25 am UTC
by Alder
3fj wrote:
Adacore wrote:I consider myself British, but by a definition that includes both England and Scotland - I'm not even sure how to define my own nationality/identity if Scotland becomes independent.

I'm in the same situation, and all I have to say on the terms of national identity is that your family aren't going to stop being your family out of nowhere.
As for not having a vote, to be honest, I'd be pretty upset if votes came in internationally. I mean, how do you distribute the vote to everyone who considers themselves Scottish? Why should I live in a country who's rules are decided by people who don't live here?

I was talking about this the other day to my mum. I've always considered myself Scottish first, and British second, and I'm comfortable with both those identities. And as far as I'm concerned, whichever way the vote goes today, I'll still be Scottish first, British second, because the Britain is the group of islands. I'll still be attached to the rest of the country, just not ruled by it. The government might change, not who we are.

I never considered myself a UKian in the first place...did anyone?

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:28 am UTC
by Illiander
Fun Fact about Spain:

The Spanish Premier is in the same European party alliance as David Cameron. So those two backing each other up is to be expected.

bigglesworth wrote:
3fj wrote:all I have to say on the terms of national identity is that your family aren't going to stop being your family out of nowhere.
And that's the most useless irrelevant straw man that I've seen in the whole thread.


Umm, if you define who you are on the basis of who your government is, then I think you have a problem. I have family all over the world, they don't stop being my family just because they're in a different country. Would you be feeling the same about any Chinese relatives you might have, if they lived in Tibet and Tibet was finally getting away from China?

Djehutynakht wrote:Although I guess if one cares about independence that much, or believes that London's marginalization means few benefits from the UK's overall international status, then it might be worth it.


Yeah, we've got so much form on London's attitude to Scotland's interests being "Scotland is expendable" it's no longer funny.


Well, we'll see how this goes in a little while :-)

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:36 am UTC
by Diadem
Exactly. Having Scotland remain in the EU and NATO, and sign a shared borders union with England, and reach good agreements about military and stuff like that, will make the transition much more smooth. That is a good thing. I mean sure you can block all that and then watch as the doom scenarios unfold, but what good would that do, except pandering to wounded nationalist egos?

And small countries do fine on their own. In fact in many ways they seem to do better than big countries. In the short run a split would of course cost money, you have to redo a lot of paperwork, and there will no doubt be some friction from the transition. But in the long run I really don't see the problem, and would not be surprised at all if both countries end up doing better. And in the case of, for example, Belgium, I am certain that both countries would do better if they split. Belgium is a really poor fit, and their economy is really dragged down by the confusing over-regulation and infighting this has resulted in. I don't know enough about Scotland to know if that is the case here, so I can't really judge.

Smaller countries seem to have two general advantages. Policies are less abstract, and their results are more directly visible, which makes them easier to grok for most people, policymakers included. Secondly they will in general be more homogeneous, making it easier to create policies that benefit everybody. Different regions often have different needs and different problems, and national policy always has trouble adapting for that.

Small countries also face a number of disadvantages. The most important being that you have less weight to throw around internationally. International treaties solve much of that problem though. Take military. An independent Scotland would never be able to defend itself against an aggressive neighbor. But if Scotland joins NATO, who is ever going to threaten them?

And having less international weight can also come in handy at times. Others will take less note of your actions, and will fear you less. The US has more influence in Moscow than The Netherlands, but Moscow is also much more wary of them.



Anyway: The polls are open. An unprecedented 97% of eligible voters registered to vote. That alone is a major victory for democracy. That kind of turnout (registration is not turnout of course, but turnout will certainly be very high) is awesome. And it's anybody's guess what the result will be. The polls are dead even, and are probably less reliable than normal because so many people are voting for the first time.

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:37 am UTC
by Diadem
Illiander wrote:Fun Fact about Spain:

The Spanish Premier is in the same European party alliance as David Cameron. So those two backing each other up is to be expected.

European parties mean nothing.

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:13 am UTC
by bigglesworth
3fj wrote:Strawman? He said "I'm worried about bad things for my family and my national identity". Might be I misinterpreted what was being said, but that's not a strawman.
I took it that Adacore was worried about their own national identity and how to align themselves with one. It's a question about British identity, and whether it will still exist.

And yes, I know lots of people who identify with Britain before England.

Edit: It doesn't often come up, but just in case - the location by my avatar is a joke, I'm not an imperialist. I do identify as British before English though - I'm ethnically/culturally English but I'm not a fan of ethnic nationalism per se.

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:48 am UTC
by leady
I love the faith that that other countries and organisations won't act in ways that have long term advantages (like strangeling their own nationalist movements).

I'd even say its 50 - 50 that UK will let Scotland secede but retain the Islands as protectorates and hence massive amounts of the oil reserves.

One you spit in someones face, don't expect them to play nice afterwards is a good moto for life and politics.

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:52 am UTC
by eSOANEM
The bbc poll tracker (which includes polls from all organisations polling regularly on the issue) shows no in the lead again. The no vote seems to have been more constant over the 12 month period, but both votes have moved a lot recently making it unclear how accurate the polls will be.

It seems that the tv debates produced the largest gains for yes in the campaign but over the past fortnight yes-support seems to have fallen a bit (possibly the second debate tipped a few people who've now changed their minds back).

So at the moment it looks like a narrowly defeated referendum but, because the high registration, expected high turnout and lots of other differences from normal votes, pollsters have been warning since the start that they're less sure than they normally would be how the polls will translate into votes.

3fj wrote:
kingofdreams wrote:welcome to realpolitk calling it unfair doesn't circumvent the issue

Realpolitik advises that where red tape gets in the way, people find a way to cut through it. Remind me then which is more important, Spain's feelings or majority control of the European oil reserves, access to fishing for a number of member states and the international clusterfuck of stripping the living/working rights of European citizens?


It really isn't just Spain's feelings. Catalunya is one of the most prosperous regions of Spain. If it left, the rest of the country would take an enormous economic hit. Spain's already in a terrible place economically; it cannot afford for Catalunya to leave. The people of Spain know this.

This means the Spanish government is forced, by domestic political concerns, to act against Scottish and EU interests (or at least, to be seen to).

Tirian wrote:
Diadem wrote:The whole idea that Scotland would even have to reapply is pure political bullshit. There is zero reason to not accept them except bullying. Scotland is a member now. It doesn't affect the other member states in any significant way whether the UK is part of the EU as 1, 2, or a dozen political entities. The territory, economy, population, economic ties, etc, they are all still the same.


Do you think Scotland deserves a permanent seat on the UN Security Council?


And the UK does? The only reason we're on the security council is because we used to have an empire. Now, we're just a boring-sized country with an overinflated ego who only has such a high level of influence because we're on the security council (and similar things for other international bodies). It's become a circular argument.

Illiander wrote:Fun Fact about Spain:

The Spanish Premier is in the same European party alliance as David Cameron. So those two backing each other up is to be expected.


This is an incredibly stupid thing to say. The European party alliances are so broad and cover so many different people that, whilst they will generally agree on a handful of major issues (and what issues those are will vary from party to party), there will be a lot of disagreement within them.

The reason Madrid doesn't want this has nothing to do with them being pals and in the same european party alliance as Cameron and everything to do with Catalan independence. No government in Madrid, regardless of what European party alliance they belong to could get away back home with being seen as anything other than against Scottish independence.

Diadem wrote:Exactly. Having Scotland remain in the EU and NATO, and sign a shared borders union with England, and reach good agreements about military and stuff like that, will make the transition much more smooth. That is a good thing. I mean sure you can block all that and then watch as the doom scenarios unfold, but what good would that do, except pandering to wounded nationalist egos?


I suspect a lot of the doom and gloom is posturing. Equally, some of it isn't. Given how central it's been to the debates, I suspect a formal currency union would be off the table until at least a few years into an independent scotland. Spain's interest is just to be seen to be making life difficult for Scotland (for instance by preventing a fast-track) and, once they have, they have little incentive to actually stop Scotland acceding.

Quite quickly after a yes-vote, we'd see Scotland in the UN, NATO and the EU and, once the rUK public forgets about it and it no longer seems like a u-turn, a formal currency union. Border agreements would be in place straight off-the-bat and the UK will retain a few military bases in Scotland and be allowed to keep trident there until the rUK finds/makes somewhere else to put it.

In the case of a no-vote, Westminster devolves some extra power (probably less than they were saying though with certain powers falling behind the cushions) and spends the next decade or more able to point to a defeated referendum as a sign that independence isn't wanted (if people bring up how close it was, they say further powers have been devolved and support will have diminished without backing that up).

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:13 am UTC
by bigglesworth
That seems a very reasonable analysis of the situation. Certainly there's a difference between using another country's currency for a few years and using it indefinitely - if the £ is right for Scotland now, it'll be on the right lines for the next few years too. I can definitely see a new currency union being sold as a firming up of an existing arrangement.

Spain will seek a balance between not being seen as interfering abroad while not being seen as allowing new fast-track procedures to be formed in the EU.

I personally think that the EU should allow fast-track procedures, or at least procedures, for split countries. There will be economic upheaval in any split but I think it's something to be minimized and the EU can help with that.

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:29 am UTC
by sigsfried
leady wrote:I love the faith that that other countries and organisations won't act in ways that have long term advantages (like strangeling their own nationalist movements).

I'd even say its 50 - 50 that UK will let Scotland secede but retain the Islands as protectorates and hence massive amounts of the oil reserves.

One you spit in someones face, don't expect them to play nice afterwards is a good moto for life and politics.


Not going to happen. The UK recognises those islands as Scottish, suddenly changing that attitude would be totally against the current policy of Britain to heavily back self determination (which came about as an argument to keep Gibraltar and the Falklands).

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:29 pm UTC
by CannedCourage
The economy and defence are important issues, but I think they've featured disproportionately in the media and in this thread.

Independence cuts across so many different areas of discussion (including past UK policy), without even getting into the meta issues on the nature of UK politics itself.

Complicating matters is that the consequences of No have changed over time. It's no longer the status quo, or even more devolution as No campaigners are suggesting. There is a real chance of backlash from Westminster politicians. Some have already spoken about voting against the proposals from the three main parties. We could be worse off no matter what happens today.

Anyhoo, I'm off to vote.

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:44 pm UTC
by bigglesworth
sigsfried wrote:Not going to happen. The UK recognises those islands as Scottish, suddenly changing that attitude would be totally against the current policy of Britain to heavily back self determination (which came about as an argument to keep Gibraltar and the Falklands).
Though it would accept a referendum of the islands if they wanted to join the UK or go independent themselves.

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:08 pm UTC
by eSOANEM
CannedCourage wrote:The economy and defence are important issues, but I think they've featured disproportionately in the media and in this thread.

Independence cuts across so many different areas of discussion (including past UK policy), without even getting into the meta issues on the nature of UK politics itself.


Diverging politics is an important issue, but one which can be solved through measures other than independence (a proportional system for one thing).

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:00 pm UTC
by bigglesworth
I've suddenly realised how closely Great Britain's history is mirroring what happened to Denmark over this century,

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:32 pm UTC
by leady
bigglesworth wrote:
sigsfried wrote:Not going to happen. The UK recognises those islands as Scottish, suddenly changing that attitude would be totally against the current policy of Britain to heavily back self determination (which came about as an argument to keep Gibraltar and the Falklands).
Though it would accept a referendum of the islands if they wanted to join the UK or go independent themselves.


the Shetland Isles don't Identify as Scottish so a nice protectorate status with a healthy dose of the oil suits both parties. Its not on the table now because England has to appear nice to retain the union. Union goes so does the niceness.

Other things I would do with the gloves off:

debt share in Euros or Dollars so thats its resaleable outside England so we can't be screwed over

Explicit blocking of UN & EU membership without preferable terms

Territorial ownership of the Trident bases as alcoves

Re-contract all the oil contracts to terms that benefit England post separation (spares, repairs etc)

Tariffs on the borders

Block from NATO without a 2.5% GDP commitment

etc etc :)

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:05 pm UTC
by kingofdreams
bigglesworth wrote:I've suddenly realised how closely Great Britain's history is mirroring what happened to Denmark over this century,


As a 'Europa Universalis' Player this made me cringe

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:57 pm UTC
by Vahir
kingofdreams wrote:
bigglesworth wrote:I've suddenly realised how closely Great Britain's history is mirroring what happened to Denmark over this century,


As a 'Europa Universalis' Player this made me cringe


Denmark strong!

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:16 pm UTC
by bigglesworth
Scottish Nationalists have risen in Edinburgh!

[Harsh treatment]

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:43 pm UTC
by kingofdreams
How have we gone 300 years without coring?


edit: polls closed

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:21 pm UTC
by sigsfried
bigglesworth wrote:
sigsfried wrote:Not going to happen. The UK recognises those islands as Scottish, suddenly changing that attitude would be totally against the current policy of Britain to heavily back self determination (which came about as an argument to keep Gibraltar and the Falklands).
Though it would accept a referendum of the islands if they wanted to join the UK or go independent themselves.


If an independent Scotland allowed such a referendum to be conducted, which it won't.

Anyway polls have closed. So an interesting night, I am used to the idea of going to bed one night and having a new government the next day. This is right, reasonable and perfectly normal. It is weird to think that the decision will have been made on the very nature of my country.

Also I wish the various politicians being interviewed would stop saying that it is special that this is happening peacefully. We are a democratic state, of course this is being decided in an election Britain's behaviour isn't exceptional it is the absolute minimum one would expect from a western democracy, allowing people to vote to decide their future.

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:24 pm UTC
by Tyndmyr
sigsfried wrote:Also I wish the various politicians being interviewed would stop saying that it is special that this is happening peacefully. We are a democratic state, of course this is being decided in an election Britain's behaviour isn't exceptional it is the absolute minimum one would expect from a western democracy, allowing people to vote to decide their future.


It is fairly special, though. Western democracies have painted their country red with blood over secession before. Actually having a nice, simple civilized majority rules vote over the affair is pretty unusual indeed.

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:30 pm UTC
by kingofdreams
sigsfried wrote:
If an independent Scotland allowed such a referendum to be conducted, which it won't.



You would appear to disagree with the SNP MEP for rural affairs on that point

Re: Scottish Independence

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:34 pm UTC
by Diadem
The polls have been closed for half an hour now, but I can't find exit polls anywhere. Weird. Apparently the BBC didn't bother to do one. What the fuck? I thought this vote was considered important?

I guess I shall have to go to bed without knowing the result. How frustrating.