Isla Vista shooting

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Aetius
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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby Aetius » Mon May 26, 2014 5:15 am UTC

Beltayn wrote:Is there any indication of why he felt motivated to kill his three male room-mates as well?

All the news has focused on his hatred for women, but why kill his male room-mates? Did they have girlfriends and therefore he was jealous?


Part of his plan was to lure people into his apartment to be killed "quietly" before the more public attack occurred. In order to be successful at this he wrote that he needed to kill his roommates in order to have his apartment to himself.

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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby CorruptUser » Mon May 26, 2014 6:05 am UTC

If he was capable of luring people to his apartment, wouldn't he be able to get laid?

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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby K-R » Mon May 26, 2014 6:07 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:If he was capable of luring people to his apartment, wouldn't he be able to get laid?

Yes, that is literally the only reason anyone would ever go to his apartment.

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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby eSOANEM » Mon May 26, 2014 9:42 am UTC

I skimmed his whole manifesto (I saw a link to it on tumblr). It was terrifying. Not only did the appalling amount of misogyny there come across, but so did the fact he was racist as well. Like I say, I only skimmed it, but their was definitely something about him attacking/being incensed by having to closely associate with some latinos. That may have been his room-mates.
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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby Brace » Mon May 26, 2014 12:12 pm UTC

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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby K-R » Mon May 26, 2014 12:21 pm UTC

Telchar wrote:http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2811%2961851-5/fulltext

http://promoteacceptance.samhsa.gov/pub ... ?printid=1

For that last link, I find these particularly compelling

“Research has shown that the vast majority of people who are violent do not suffer from mental illnesses (American Psychiatric Association, 1994).”

Sure, but if the vast majority of people, period, do not suffer from mental illnesses, mentally ill people could still be more violent on average than non-mentally-ill people.

“. . . [T]he absolute risk of violence among the mentally ill as a group is still very small

What's the absolute risk of violence among the non-mentally-ill?

In a 1998 study that compared people discharged from acute psychiatric inpatient facilities and others in the same neighborhoods, researchers found that “there was no significant difference between the prevalence of violence by patients without symptoms of substance abuse and the prevalence of violence by others living in the same neighborhoods who were also without symptoms of substance abuse (Steadman, Mulvey, Monahan, Robbins, Applebaum, Grisso, Roth, and Silver, 1998).”

Which essentially says that violence occurs at the same rate in either population, which is not at all what "more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators" seems to be trying to imply.

And, of course, you're excluding substance abuse, which may have a different effect on the mentally ill.


All that being said, treating "mentally ill people" as some sort of homogenous group seems silly. Which mental illness they have would presumably play a part.

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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby speising » Mon May 26, 2014 12:26 pm UTC

i'd argue that anyone who goes on a murder spree is mentally ill.

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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby Ormurinn » Mon May 26, 2014 1:25 pm UTC

On the racism angle, he seems to have a serious problem with white people.

I've only skimmed his writings, cause dreck is dreck. He seems to have thought that being half-asian made him superior, and entitled him to sex with whites. Shades of Eldridge Cleaver? He refers to himself as a "perfect Eurasian".

This guy really hated blondes too. He explicitly calls out blondes as his preferred victims. All the victims were white also.

Tbf, I'm surprised there was no rape involved.
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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby CorruptUser » Mon May 26, 2014 1:38 pm UTC

K-R wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:If he was capable of luring people to his apartment, wouldn't he be able to get laid?

Yes, that is literally the only reason anyone would ever go to his apartment.


No, but it's a huge part of it. Large amounts of social skills in one area translates to large amounts in other areas; this kid had none. Unless his plan was to lure realtors or other workers to his apartment where he'd be detected more or less instantly, not going to work.

Ormurinn wrote:Tbf, I'm surprised there was no rape involved.


That takes time to commit. Murder is quicker.

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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby Chen » Mon May 26, 2014 2:43 pm UTC

http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/25/us/santa- ... ?hpt=us_c1

So already the gun control advocates are spouting on about this. The comments by one of the victim's father seems so out there.

"Why did Chris die? Chris died because of craven, irresponsible politicians and the (National Rifle Association). They talk about gun rights -- what about Chris' right to live?" he continued. "When will this insanity stop? When will enough people say stop this madness, we don't have to live like this? Too many have died. We should say to ourselves -- not one more."


That the person's first thoughts are to blame gun control (well lack thereof) for this seems so odd to me. The fact this is even brought up as opposed to the misogyny or even mental health issues is crazy. Having things so polarized that people are so quick to focus on gun control rather than the actual causes of this is ridiculous.

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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby gmalivuk » Mon May 26, 2014 2:45 pm UTC

Wait, were the people killed in his apartment complete strangers or his roommates?
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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby Minerva » Mon May 26, 2014 3:19 pm UTC

aoeu wrote:and he was autistic in a colloquial sense at least.


I swear, every time I have to read somebody on the Internet, or in the press, bring up autism spectrum disorders or Asperger's syndrome etc. in relation to Elliot Rodger and these events I'm going to... well, not go out and kill people. But I'll still be rather unhappy about it.
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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby Brace » Mon May 26, 2014 3:45 pm UTC

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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby gmalivuk » Mon May 26, 2014 4:02 pm UTC

Which means that it didn't actually require any "luring" skills to get them into the apartment where they were living.

CorruptUser wrote:If he was capable of luring people to his apartment, wouldn't he be able to get laid?
So even if this if-then statement made any sense, it's irrelevant to reality.
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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby K-R » Mon May 26, 2014 4:03 pm UTC

Except...
Aetius wrote:
Beltayn wrote:Is there any indication of why he felt motivated to kill his three male room-mates as well?

All the news has focused on his hatred for women, but why kill his male room-mates? Did they have girlfriends and therefore he was jealous?


Part of his plan was to lure people into his apartment to be killed "quietly" before the more public attack occurred. In order to be successful at this he wrote that he needed to kill his roommates in order to have his apartment to himself.

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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby gmalivuk » Mon May 26, 2014 4:05 pm UTC

Yes, that was part of his plan, but it didn't actually happen because the only people he killed in his apartment were said roommates and one of their friends.

Or was CorruptUser just wondering why his plan wasn't instead to lure women into his apartment to rape them?
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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby K-R » Mon May 26, 2014 4:17 pm UTC

I took it to mean 'he can't get laid, therefore luring people to his apartment was a flawed plan'.

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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby Ormurinn » Mon May 26, 2014 4:18 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Personally, I think that maybe if he hadn't had a massive "support" network of other angry misogynists helping to foment his viewpoint (that women were to blame for his relationship woes), he might not have gone ahead and murdered six people before killing himself. And I think that if there were a change in social attitudes about women, it might not be as easy to find such cesspits of insular angry misogyny in the form of MRA/PUA groups.


I don't think you can pin this on pickup artists.

From what I've read, he was a member of an online forum called PUAHate - which, unsurprisingly, is dedicated to hating on pickup artists.

I'm not sure where his animus towards the community came from, probably jealousy. Based on his statements on prostitutes and his councillor, he probably thought nerdy PUA's teaching themselves to be romantically successful was "cheating". Maybe if he had worked on his social skills in the way PUA's advocate, none of this would have happened.

He doesn't strike me as the PUA type (even a failed one). More of a " nice guy".
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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby K-R » Mon May 26, 2014 4:26 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:From what I've read, he was a member of an online forum called PUAHate - which, unsurprisingly, is dedicated to hating on pickup artists.

Not because PUAs are terrible, though. Because women are terrible.
When Katie J.M. Baker dipped into the site’s forums in 2012, she “failed to find one user who wondered whether women are unfairly targeted (as well as stereotyped, pigeonholed, and marketed) by the seduction community. Nope! On their predominately male, heterosexual planet it's the poor, gullible men who are the true victims.” It’s still “women in general,” she found, “who are the villains to these outcasts.” As one poster on PUA Hate puts it in his sign-off: “Women are a scam.”

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/20 ... ponse.html

Maybe if he had worked on his social skills in the way PUA's advocate, none of this would have happened.

PUAs teach social skills?

He doesn't strike me as the PUA type (even a failed one). More of a " nice guy".

There's a difference?

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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby gmalivuk » Mon May 26, 2014 4:40 pm UTC

As I understand it, most PUAs see themselves as the correct response to the "fact" that nice guys don't get sex. They still buy into much of the same bullshit narratives about how girls only like assholes, though. They just endeavor to become the kind of assholes girls allegedly go for.

K-R wrote:PUAs teach social skills?
Rape skills, more like.
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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby Ormurinn » Mon May 26, 2014 4:48 pm UTC

K-R wrote:PUAs teach social skills?

He doesn't strike me as the PUA type (even a failed one). More of a " nice guy".

There's a difference?


'. Well, yeah. From what I've seen on PUA sites (there's two on a news/politics feed I follow), they're mostly discussions of body language and how you should change your phrasing and tone, mental tricks to reduce nervousness etc.

Honestly, they remind me a bit of my toastmasters classes, if the focus was moved from business presentation to bars.

''. Yeah. PUAs are (stereotypically) sleazy, obnoxious and sex obsessed. They're also upfront and masculine. "Nice guys" are neutered, emasculated, androgynous and sneaky - the kind of guy who thinks friendship with a girl entitles him to sex, whose two cowardly to be upfront about attraction.
http://xkcd.com/513/

The killer thought putting himself out there was sitting in a dominoes waiting for a spontaneous BJ and felt he was owed sex because of his BMW. Definitely more the latter.
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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby eSOANEM » Mon May 26, 2014 4:52 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:On the racism angle, he seems to have a serious problem with white people.

I've only skimmed his writings, cause dreck is dreck. He seems to have thought that being half-asian made him superior, and entitled him to sex with whites. Shades of Eldridge Cleaver? He refers to himself as a "perfect Eurasian".

This guy really hated blondes too. He explicitly calls out blondes as his preferred victims. All the victims were white also.


He also made it clear that the blondes were the ideal people he wanted to be in a relationship with and viewed the fact that they were in relationships with people of other races in a negative light. He may have seen himself as superior to white people, but he also saw them as superior to pretty much everyone else.

Chen wrote:
"Why did Chris die? Chris died because of craven, irresponsible politicians and the (National Rifle Association). They talk about gun rights -- what about Chris' right to live?" he continued. "When will this insanity stop? When will enough people say stop this madness, we don't have to live like this? Too many have died. We should say to ourselves -- not one more."


That the person's first thoughts are to blame gun control (well lack thereof) for this seems so odd to me. The fact this is even brought up as opposed to the misogyny or even mental health issues is crazy. Having things so polarized that people are so quick to focus on gun control rather than the actual causes of this is ridiculous.


As someone who is pro-gun-control I agree that it being the main concern here is ridiculous. With gun control, this person would still have been a violent danger in the community (albeit perhaps a lesser one). The key issue is how the PUA/MRA communities helped foster a sense of entitlement to sex and a relationship so strongly in him that he felt it trumped other people's right to life.

Ormurinn wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:Personally, I think that maybe if he hadn't had a massive "support" network of other angry misogynists helping to foment his viewpoint (that women were to blame for his relationship woes), he might not have gone ahead and murdered six people before killing himself. And I think that if there were a change in social attitudes about women, it might not be as easy to find such cesspits of insular angry misogyny in the form of MRA/PUA groups.


I don't think you can pin this on pickup artists.

From what I've read, he was a member of an online forum called PUAHate - which, unsurprisingly, is dedicated to hating on pickup artists.

I'm not sure where his animus towards the community came from, probably jealousy. Based on his statements on prostitutes and his councillor, he probably thought nerdy PUA's teaching themselves to be romantically successful was "cheating". Maybe if he had worked on his social skills in the way PUA's advocate, none of this would have happened.

He doesn't strike me as the PUA type (even a failed one). More of a " nice guy".


IIRC there was also some stuff about him also being active on MRA boards and, well, fundamentally, the mindset is the same even in how MRAs/PUAs act on it differs. Both have mindsets which revolve around denying/being oblivious to your privilege but then allowing your privilege to fuel a sense of entitlement.

This is what is to blame and, just because this guy came from the MRA community doesn't mean the PUA community shouldn't also take a good long look at itself and recognise that the same issues which caused this are present in their community as well.
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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby K-R » Mon May 26, 2014 4:56 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:As I understand it, most PUAs see themselves as the correct response to the "fact" that nice guys don't get sex. They still buy into much of the same bullshit narratives about how girls only like assholes, though. They just endeavor to become the kind of assholes girls allegedly go for.

Within that narrative, the assholes have no need to become PUAs, only the Nice Guys do. So I'd imagine the vast majority of PUAs are or were Nice Guys, if not all of them, so his Nice Guyness is hardly inconsistent with being a PUA.

Not all Nice Guys are PUAs, but I'd imagine most or all PUAs are Nice Guys. They're certainly not mutually exclusive.

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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby Aetius » Mon May 26, 2014 4:56 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:IIRC there was also some stuff about him also being active on MRA boards and, well, fundamentally, the mindset is the same even in how MRAs/PUAs act on it differs. Both have mindsets which revolve around denying/being oblivious to your privilege but then allowing your privilege to fuel a sense of entitlement.

This is what is to blame and, just because this guy came from the MRA community doesn't mean the PUA community shouldn't also take a good long look at itself and recognise that the same issues which caused this are present in their community as well.


Do you have a source on that? "The RedPill" style thinking comes through pretty clear in his writing, and I've seen evidence of his membership in those types of places, but I haven't gotten any MRA vibe out of anything he's written that I've read. The only link I've seen between him and MRA (to this point anyway) is from people trying to make political hay out of the situation.

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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby K-R » Mon May 26, 2014 4:58 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:As someone who is pro-gun-control I agree that it being the main concern here is ridiculous. With gun control, this person would still have been a violent danger in the community (albeit perhaps a lesser one).

Hell, with gun control three of the people he killed would still be dead in exactly the same way.

Even if one assumes that gun control is not currently a thing that exists in California.

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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby Nylonathatep » Mon May 26, 2014 5:13 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:IIRC there was also some stuff about him also being active on MRA boards and, well, fundamentally, the mindset is the same even in how MRAs/PUAs act on it differs. Both have mindsets which revolve around denying/being oblivious to your privilege but then allowing your privilege to fuel a sense of entitlement.

This is what is to blame and, just because this guy came from the MRA community doesn't mean the PUA community shouldn't also take a good long look at itself and recognise that the same issues which caused this are present in their community as well.


Didn't the guy also posted his misogynistic thoughts on the bodybuilding.com forum as well? Bodybuilders are to be blamed here!!!

(and I wonder how people would react if Elliot posted on Xkcd forums :) )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Isla_Vista_killings

Personally, I think his self-entitled views, his attitute towards "white" superiority, and misogynistic thoughts has no place in society and no single social group encompasses all his deranged view of the world at once. I feel the underlying tone of this thread so far is "What/Who is really to be blamed here? (or If we allowed this instead, the killing won't happen)" I Personally don't think legallized prostitution, stricter gun control, or anything change in government policies would prevent this tragedy.

The thing is, the youth of this generation grew up trying to blame their failures and shortcomings on the world, instead of looking for the cause their failures within themselves. They lack the mental fortitude on how to deal with failures and rejections because they've grew up sheltered from these negative feelings all their life.
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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby Brace » Mon May 26, 2014 5:14 pm UTC

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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby CorruptUser » Mon May 26, 2014 5:15 pm UTC

K-R wrote:I took it to mean 'he can't get laid, therefore luring people to his apartment was a flawed plan'.


This is more or less correct. It takes some level of social skill for people to enter your house, unless you are hiring a plumber or something (and even then they can get scared off). The kid had virtually no social skills, being a desperate virgin was a result of that. So his plan to lure people to his home wouldn't work.

Something else that always bothered me. Women are 'supposed' to be prudes, but it's socially acceptable to have a vibrator. Men are 'supposed' to be promiscuous, but it's unacceptable to have a 'reverse dildo' or whatever the term is. Hell, it's rare enough that people only know it by one brand. I bring this up because I once was watching a show on HBO about people and their RealDolls, and aside from being the creepiest thing ever, one of the guys interviewed sounded like this kid. "All men deserve hot women, but hit women are evil bitches, so I got a real woman who knows how to treat me".

Brace wrote:4chan was posting screencaps of his postings on multiple internet forums. He belonged to some "Incel" forums and a bodybuilding forum, and also posted on an anonymous chan called wizardchan. Many of the forums he belonged to have subsequently erased his presence from them. Don't have an actual source on hand though, sorry.


Wow, he fits the Internet Tough Guy stereotype perfectly. And then some unrelated stereotypes. Might be too good to be true.

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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby K-R » Mon May 26, 2014 5:25 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:It takes some level of social skill for people to enter your house, unless you are hiring a plumber or something (and even then they can get scared off).

That level of social skill is a long way below 'can get laid'. And social skills aren't the sole factor in whether or not one gets laid, either.

Wow, he fits the Internet Tough Guy stereotype perfectly.

Except for the part where he actually killed people.

And then some unrelated stereotypes. Might be too good to be true.

What.

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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby CorruptUser » Mon May 26, 2014 5:33 pm UTC

K-R wrote:
Wow, he fits the Internet Tough Guy stereotype perfectly.

Except for the part where he actually killed people.


That's the unrelated stuff in literally the next sentence.

K-R wrote:
And then some unrelated stereotypes. Might be too good to be true.

What.


The story is just a perfect story; too good to be true. It's like one of those stories about someone in Japan doing something like eyeball licking or whatever, based on maybe 2 people doing it, and thus EVERY Japanese couple licks eyeballs because Japanese are weirdos, and it turns out the whole story was made up entirely.

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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby K-R » Mon May 26, 2014 5:35 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:That's the unrelated stuff in literally the next sentence.

It's not just 'unrelated', it's entirely counter to the stereotype you claim he fits perfectly.

It's like one of those stories about someone in Japan doing something like eyeball licking or whatever, based on maybe 2 people doing it, and thus EVERY Japanese couple licks eyeballs because Japanese are weirdos, and it turns out the whole story was made up entirely.

....okay, then. We can clearly stop worrying about this as the mass killing never happened.

Carry on.

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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby gmalivuk » Mon May 26, 2014 5:45 pm UTC

Brace wrote:
Nylonathatep wrote:The thing is, the youth of this generation grew up trying to blame their failures and shortcomings on the world, instead of looking for the cause their failures within themselves. They lack the mental fortitude on how to deal with failures and rejections because they've grew up sheltered from these negative feelings all their life.
Don't you think this is more dependent on class and parental attitudes than generation? You've just taken the bogeymen you didn't like and replaced them with the equally asinine concept of millennial entitlement.

Yeah, that is pretty bullshit. "We can't blame this on any one thing. But if we want to pick one thing, it's probably this generation not being raised properly."

Also, violent reactions to rejection are not tied to any one generation. You can find stories of people men of all ages pulling that kind of shit, from teenagers to octogenarians.
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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby Zamfir » Mon May 26, 2014 5:48 pm UTC

(and I wonder how people would react if Elliot posted on Xkcd forums :) )

I would be greatly bothered. I could tell myself a million times that there is nothing I had to do with it, but still. At a guess, that's how the people at those bodybuilding and incel (whatever that may be) boards feel as well.

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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby gmalivuk » Mon May 26, 2014 5:50 pm UTC

We've had people post here who would probably agree with him on many of his beliefs. They tend to get banned fairly quickly for being utterly despicable pieces of human trash.

(And "incel" means "involuntary celibacy", a fancy made-up name for people who made a whole identity out of not getting the sex they feel they should be getting.)
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Ormurinn
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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby Ormurinn » Mon May 26, 2014 5:53 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
(and I wonder how people would react if Elliot posted on Xkcd forums :) )

I would be greatly bothered. I could tell myself a million times that there is nothing I had to do with it, but still. At a guess, that's how the people at those bodybuilding and incel (whatever that may be) boards feel as well.


Involuntary celibacy.

Guys who never learned/learned wrongly how to interact with girls.

Whilst were throwing out pop sociological explainations, I blame the demise of patriarchy.

Of course, maybe he really wasn't checking his privelige enough.
"Progress" - Technological advances masking societal decay.

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Brace
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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby Brace » Mon May 26, 2014 6:04 pm UTC

This post had objectionable content.
Last edited by Brace on Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:50 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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gmalivuk
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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby gmalivuk » Mon May 26, 2014 6:06 pm UTC

You're just too invested in the status quo to make real changes.

Obviously none of this would have happened if we hadn't started reproducing sexually in the first place. Parthenogenesis is obviously the way to go.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
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Zamfir
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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby Zamfir » Mon May 26, 2014 6:09 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:We've had people post here who would probably agree with him on many of his beliefs. They tend to get banned fairly quickly for being utterly despicable pieces of human trash.

Sure, the equivalent would be a murder spree by a board member who wasn't banned, who perhaps even fit in, or at least didn't stand out. That would bother me, justified or not.

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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby Aetius » Mon May 26, 2014 6:15 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:Sure, the equivalent would be a murder spree by a board member who wasn't banned, who perhaps even fit in, or at least didn't stand out. That would bother me, justified or not.


I can't speak for all the boards he was on, but a number that I've seen either called him out for being a serial killer in the making, or ignored him because they thought anyone spouting the shit he was spouting had to be a troll.

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Re: Isla Vista shooting

Postby LaserGuy » Mon May 26, 2014 6:18 pm UTC

Brace wrote:4chan was posting screencaps of his postings on multiple internet forums. He belonged to some "Incel" forums and a bodybuilding forum, and also posted on an anonymous chan called wizardchan. Many of the forums he belonged to have subsequently erased his presence from them. Don't have an actual source on hand though, sorry.


This is kind of aside to the main discussion, but wouldn't such deletions be sort of illegal? Tampering with evidence or whatever? Unless they're just removing the posts from public view but keeping the content on file I suppose.


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