ADHD is not a real disease

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omgryebread
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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby omgryebread » Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:42 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Doctor: "Sounds legit. Here's some pills. Also, I get a huge kickback from the drug company for selling them to you."
If we're taking it here, then it's worth noting that the doctor who wrote the article in the OP runs a clinic that treats ADHD with the assumption that it's a symptom of of underlying causes. He has a great financial incentive for convincing people that other doctors are doing ADHD wrong.
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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby Brace » Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:58 pm UTC

This post had objectionable content.
Last edited by Brace on Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:08 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby WibblyWobbly » Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:19 pm UTC

Brace wrote:Which is why "Cue bono" is a useless question.


Immediately, I started wondering why we would want that asshole performing in the middle of our thread, and how cueing him constitutes a question. Now there's a guy who might need to be on meds.

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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby sje46 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:29 pm UTC

Brace wrote:Non-neuroscience based clinical psychiatry is a steaming pile of bullshit generally. The problem is finding something to replace it with.

I sorta view this similar to calling medieval medicine as a "steaming pile of bullshit". It isn't actually bullshit; it's just that psychology is a relatively young field so it's significantly harder to treat people for issues. *We don't know the causes* for many mental disorders. We have to look at abstract upper-level stuff instead of internal neurological stuff. And it's very difficult and *very* expensive to actually look into someone's brains to diagnose that way. Additionally, all psychiatry is neuroscience based. This isn't Freud's era anymore; all psychologists agree that it's stuff going wrong in the brain.

I mean this may be trifling but I think it's important to not dismiss an entire field as bullshit in such a flippant way. These are (generally) people who are trying the best they can, and a anti-psychiatric narrative contributes to, well...consider how Scientology came about. People already rag on psychiatry enough; they don't need to be called witch doctors.

Shiiiiit, I had or have at least half of those symptoms. But how many of those symptoms are indistinguishable from "poor discipline"? Seems to me that it might get a bit overdosed.

I mean, half those symptoms are almost normal.

A mental disorder requires you to experience significant distress or disorder. Everybody feels the symptoms of chronic depression to some extent throughout their lives, but that does not mean everyone has depression.

Also not to nitpick but it's cui bono, not cue bono.
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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby Brace » Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:44 pm UTC

sje46 wrote:I sorta view this similar to calling medieval medicine as a "steaming pile of bullshit". It isn't actually bullshit; it's just that psychology is a relatively young field so it's significantly harder to treat people for issues. *We don't know the causes* for many mental disorders. We have to look at abstract upper-level stuff instead of internal neurological stuff. And it's very difficult and *very* expensive to actually look into someone's brains to diagnose that way. Additionally, all psychiatry is neuroscience based. This isn't Freud's era anymore; all psychologists agree that it's stuff going wrong in the brain.

I mean this may be trifling but I think it's important to not dismiss an entire field as bullshit in such a flippant way. These are (generally) people who are trying the best they can, and a anti-psychiatric narrative contributes to, well...consider how Scientology came about. People already rag on psychiatry enough; they don't need to be called witch doctors.


I understand that science is a process and not an authoritative body of knowledge, but medicine in particular comes with a host of ethical implications that exceed the normal obligations of intellectuals. I think that's especially true when we're applying a young science to affect people's lives and minds in such fundamental ways. I understand that pointing out the imperfect nature of a process that naturally improves over time has the potential to be useless. I do my best not to fall into this kind of pattern though. I think external criticism is necessary in order to remind all parties involved of their moral obligations. I also think that medicine is uniquely and hugely unethical to the exact extent it varies from the scientific ideal, which to some extent every science and science based endeavor always does. So criticism ought to serve a regulative function, and if in extreme cases there are entrenched practices that are especially unscientific (insofar as being unfalsifiable or predictively useless), and extreme harm is being done as a consequence, doctor's ought to be removed from their positions, even though this violates sacred principles of academic discourse. For instance, if the process of diagnosis for a condition is consistently less accurate than random selection, any doctors who use this process of diagnosis should not be allowed to continue to practice medicine.
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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:25 pm UTC

sje46 wrote:
Shiiiiit, I had or have at least half of those symptoms. But how many of those symptoms are indistinguishable from "poor discipline"? Seems to me that it might get a bit overdosed.

I mean, half those symptoms are almost normal.

A mental disorder requires you to experience significant distress or disorder. Everybody feels the symptoms of chronic depression to some extent throughout their lives, but that does not mean everyone has depression.


I did have significant distress and/or disorder. In some aspects I still do. I don't know anyone who doesn't. But it probably has causes other than ADHD.

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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby apricity » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:40 pm UTC

Another major issue here is the fact that in schools, kids can't qualify for special education services without a diagnosis (this is changing, but it's not happening everywhere yet). And medically, doctors can't bill insurance for certain therapies unless the kid has a diagnosis. So AD/HD, because it really is so broad and well-known, has become a diagnosis that is given often in order to give kids access to needed services that they wouldn't qualify for without the diagnosis. For instance, studies show that poverty can cause many of the same symptoms as AD/HD because it stresses our cognitive abilities. But since special education is for kids with disabilities, not for kids from low SES households, those kids are likely to receive a diagnosis of AD/HD so they can get the extra help they need in school.

In that way, I do see the point that the author of the article is making - the way we diagnose it now, oftentimes AD/HD is really due to different problems, underlying causes, or skills that the kid somehow never learned. But that doesn't mean that the original meaning of AD/HD doesn't exist - there definitely are people who have these symptoms and it's not due to some other factor.

Belial is right that there's a big movement going on right now focusing on "neurodiversity" - making people aware that AD/HD is just another way of thinking, and trying to adjust our society so it caters to both types of thinking. The movement exists within the Autistic community regarding social norms as well. But obviously we're not there yet, so as it is people with AD/HD are at a major disadvantage.

CorruptUser wrote:
sje46 wrote:
Shiiiiit, I had or have at least half of those symptoms. But how many of those symptoms are indistinguishable from "poor discipline"? Seems to me that it might get a bit overdosed.

I mean, half those symptoms are almost normal.
A mental disorder requires you to experience significant distress or disorder. Everybody feels the symptoms of chronic depression to some extent throughout their lives, but that does not mean everyone has depression.
I did have significant distress and/or disorder. In some aspects I still do. I don't know anyone who doesn't. But it probably has causes other than ADHD.
The whole point is that a diagnosable disorder causes distress BEYOND the normal human experience.
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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:42 pm UTC

I do have distress beyond the average human experience. But how far beyond the average is it before it's no longer "normal"?

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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby apricity » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:50 pm UTC

Two standard deviations. Based on multiple assessments. Plus a long and detailed history.
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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:55 pm UTC

That would mean that at most, 1 in 40 people could have a disorder before its "normal". Yet 1 in 9 kids in the US are diagnosed with ADHD. So either it's grossly misdiagnosed, or it's normal.

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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby apricity » Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:01 pm UTC

Nobody here is arguing that it's not overdiagnosed. In the US, it is, absolutely (due to many of the reasons in my previous post, as well as the fact that many people qualified to diagnose it such as doctors aren't actually very well trained in diagnosing it, as well as the fact that med companies do work hard to get people to buy their product). That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You're arguing two very different things - that it's overdiagnosed, and that it doesn't exist at all because it's so prevalent. Those are mutually exclusive. The first is correct and the second is not.
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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby addams » Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:02 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I do have distress beyond the average human experience. But how far beyond the average is it before it's no longer "normal"?

What? What do you call Normal?
I call a Krishnamurti.
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That's a call to Authority.
Who the Hell knows what is Normal?

Average? You aspire to average?
OK! Me, too! Have you hit is, Yet?

I did. I am about average.
Medium hight, medium weight, medium color, born half way between the equator and the pole.
Always endeavoring for the middle way. Keeping and even keel and and sailing my soul across the Seas of Eternity.

That's average. right?
I am coming close to Normal. right?

How will I know when I have hit it?
Do buzzers go off, like on a Game Show or is it contrived like Reality TV.
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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby zmic » Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:30 pm UTC

This thread is going to get locked so hard.

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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby Spambot5546 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:56 pm UTC

Eh, you know the mods can't hold their attention on a thread long enough to notice.

Boy, if it wasn't going to get locked before, it is after that joke...
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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:31 pm UTC

sje46 wrote:
Brace wrote:Non-neuroscience based clinical psychiatry is a steaming pile of bullshit generally. The problem is finding something to replace it with.

I sorta view this similar to calling medieval medicine as a "steaming pile of bullshit". It isn't actually bullshit; it's just that psychology is a relatively young field so it's significantly harder to treat people for issues. *We don't know the causes* for many mental disorders. We have to look at abstract upper-level stuff instead of internal neurological stuff. And it's very difficult and *very* expensive to actually look into someone's brains to diagnose that way. Additionally, all psychiatry is neuroscience based. This isn't Freud's era anymore; all psychologists agree that it's stuff going wrong in the brain.
Firstly, I doubt that's actually true of all psychologists. Psychoanalysis is still totally a thing.

Secondly, Brace never said that every single diagnosis should be based on detailed brain scans of each and every patient, and I don't think that's what she was implying. Rather, she was saying that clinical psychology that isn't based on neuroscience (e.g. the aforementioned Freudian stuff) is bullshit.

That doesn't mean it was bullshit when psychology was just beginning as a field of study, but anyone *now* who holds to pre-neuroscience models of the mind is just as kooky (and worthless as a doctor) as someone who holds to the four-humor system of diseases.

zmic wrote:This thread is going to get locked so hard.
By whom, exactly? Which of the mods who are currently actively participating in this thread do you think is going to lock it "so hard"?
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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby Nordic Einar » Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:11 pm UTC

Ya'll do realize there is clinical psychology (as in, psychological interventions held to a clinical standard and empirically studied) that aren't based in neuroscience, right? And often our understanding of neuroscience is HUGELY overstated which leads to shit like the serotonin theory of depression still existing to the present day and a significant downplaying of social or trauma based clinical analysis.

Like, psychoanalysis isn't a shit field of psychology because it's not neuroscience. Psychoanalysis is a shit field of psychology because it isn't empirical.

*EDIT*

Also there is a conflation in this thread of psychology and psychiatry, which are related fields of study but are not synonyms. Please stop that.

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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby sje46 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:30 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Firstly, I doubt that's actually true of all psychologists. Psychoanalysis is still totally a thing.
well yeah, I said generally all psychologists mean well. There are a bunch that don't. Some are paid off, some take advantage of broken people (like for sex). There are a few psychologists who still adhere to Freudian theory, but it's pretty much discredited by the entire field. What percentage of psychologists are psychoanalysts? This says that considerably less than 5% are Freudian.. Freud is almost entirely discredited.
Secondly, Brace never said that every single diagnosis should be based on detailed brain scans of each and every patient, and I don't think that's what she was implying. Rather, she was saying that clinical psychology that isn't based on neuroscience (e.g. the aforementioned Freudian stuff) is bullshit.
I was simply making the point that ideally we could actually look at the brain as a mechanical thing and be able to diagnose problems like that. We can't do that, though, so instead we have to go by symptons. Like a computer analogy....if you were very skilled with computers, you could identify what exactly is causing a specific problem--what specific corrupted file, let's say. But if you are bad with computers, you have to more or less "guess" base off the symptoms you see.

Pretty much every psychiatrist--so much so that I will just generalize *all* psychiatrists*--are nondualists--they believe that the mind is the emergent property of the brain. So it's not as though there's a huge contingent of psychiatrists who reject neuroscience. The problem is that they can't *use* neuroscience to diagnost and treat problems because it's such a new science and we can't treat people that way, not yet. If you are saying that therapy should be "based off neuroscience" that leads me to believe you (not you, gmal, but hypothetical "you") believe that, say, cognitive-behavioral therapy isn't great, but it *is* great. It's highly proven and effective for many, many disorders (but not all!).
That doesn't mean it was bullshit when psychology was just beginning as a field of study, but anyone *now* who holds to pre-neuroscience models of the mind is just as kooky (and worthless as a doctor) as someone who holds to the four-humor system of diseases.
Right. I guess my point is that it's problematic to make it seem like a significant amount of psychiatrists are anything like this.

In other words, exactly what Nordic Einar said much more eloquently. We know shit about neuroscience, and what we do know can't be regularly applied to every day patients, not yet. Most mainstream forms of therapy are still effective (but for specific disorders, of course).

CorruptUser wrote:
sje46 wrote:
Shiiiiit, I had or have at least half of those symptoms. But how many of those symptoms are indistinguishable from "poor discipline"? Seems to me that it might get a bit overdosed.

I mean, half those symptoms are almost normal.

A mental disorder requires you to experience significant distress or disorder. Everybody feels the symptoms of chronic depression to some extent throughout their lives, but that does not mean everyone has depression.


I did have significant distress and/or disorder. In some aspects I still do. I don't know anyone who doesn't. But it probably has causes other than ADHD.


If you have mental distress and/or disorder so significant that you are having difficulty living your life, then you may have a mental disorder and should see a therapist. I would have no clue what it would be. No one is suggesting that people who have distress or disorder have specifically ADHD. Distress or disorder is a component of EVERY mental disorder, by definition of mental disorder. That's all.

In other words, they're not stigmatizing natural variation in personality. They're trying to help people whose minds are so different that they can't even function in life properly.
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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby addams » Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:43 pm UTC

Bored?
You acted out when Bored?

You are boys?
You are brilliant?

I have heard.
Normal people think there is something Wrong with smart people.

That does not mean the kid that ...what?
Have you ever seen a real ADHD child act out?

I am not sure I have.
Remember, I am old.

There were Bad Kids, even before the DSM.
There were also intelligent compassionate adults.

I know. It's hard to believe.
Some kids need to Run.

Small communities with strong moral leadership can have some Real ADHD people.
You two don't have ADHD. Lucky you. Just smart? Good on ya'.

No one ever thought I had ADHD.
There was talk of me being Retarded.

I hated being Retarded.
All knowledge and understanding outside my reach.

I couldn't read.
Who Knew it was Hard?

I expected it to come easy.
Everyone I ever knew could read.

I thought one day a person gets out of bed and can Read.
My day did not come.

A Saint taught me to read.
The State paid her to do it.

To this day I am grateful to them both.
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Some of us see The Gutter.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby engr » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:42 am UTC

Jerome K. Jerome wrote: In the present instance, going back to the liver-pill circular, I had the symptoms, beyond all mistake, the chief among them being “a general disinclination to work of any kind.”

What I suffer in that way no tongue can tell. From my earliest infancy I have been a martyr to it. As a boy, the disease hardly ever left me for a day. They did not know, then, that it was my liver. Medical science was in a far less advanced state than now, and they used to put it down to laziness.

“Why, you skulking little devil, you,” they would say, “get up and do something for your living, can’t you?” — not knowing, of course, that I was ill.

And they didn’t give me pills; they gave me clumps on the side of the head. And, strange as it may appear, those clumps on the head often cured me — for the time being. I have known one clump on the head have more effect upon my liver, and make me feel more anxious to go straight away then and there, and do what was wanted to be done, without further loss of time, than a whole box of pills does now.

You know, it often is so — those simple, old-fashioned remedies are sometimes more efficacious than all the dispensary stuff.


In the end, if you have a mental illness diagnosed in the US at a rate dozen of times higher than anywhere else, you got three options...

1. It is one of these mental illnesses that are highly ethnicity-specific (not very common, but happens).
2. American psychiatrists are geniuses and everyone else are idiots who cannot diagnose.
3. The condition exists, but it is vastly overdiagnosed in the US because, for instance, psychiatrists are under pressure from patients' parents. If you tell them that their precious little snowflake needs a good kick in a butt and not ritalin, they may take their business elsewhere.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. Gilbert K. Chesterton

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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:45 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I think there is an easy way to tell if your little darling has ADHD. Is s/he capable of watching an entire episode on TV or play an hour of Xbox? If so, it's probably not ADHD.


This does not mesh well with established diagnoses...there's a checklist. You don't have to hit any one specific thing, it's an overall score type of issue.

Full disclosure: I've been diagnosed with this(yes, by a clinical psychiatrist, not my general practitioner, and yes, I got a second opinion). I also do think the condition is bullshit, and my diagnosis probably was as well. There is a tendency to label anyone who is "not normal" as having some sort of syndrome. In my particular case, I was very able to focus on one thing...to the exclusion of all else, if I got fully engrossed in it. This is apparently quite common, even when coupled with a general inability to focus that is still problematic.

Why I think it's BS? Well...the concept of normal really is a fuzzy one. Yeah, I still don't focus on things quite the way random person X might. Meh. There's pros and cons to all sorts of different ways of approaching things.

The wikipedia list is pretty close to the actual test I took, and yeah, that sounds pretty accurate. A single symptom will not suffice, but if you hit something like half of them, they get worried. Also, it's really easy to hit half of them. They'll also ask you things like if you self-medicate via frequent caffeine consumption. Yeah, that's not a common cultural practice or anything...

Taking the drugs worked. They also made me feel weird and hate life. I was constantly on edge and stressed out. Able to focus and remember things, sure, but in the end, the trade-off didn't feel worth it. I ditched the drugs with time and effort, and worked to train myself on various tasks to cope without them. The doctors were very pro-drugs*, and not overly fond of this approach, so I stopped showing up. There are still the odd quirks here and there(like being genuinely terrible at remembering names), but for the most part, I'm past all that. No major impact on job, I run a successful business on the side, and so on. In some cases, it's actually quite helpful.

So, I'm of the opinion that it isn't necessarily dysfunctional...just different. Different people have varying strengths and weaknesses. You grab jobs, etc tailored to your strengths. Sometimes people are just bored. Different people have different tolerances for boredom and routine, and much of that is trained or dependent on culture. As someone else mentioned, it seems incredibly odd that 1/9 people in the US have this, and the same is not true elsewhere...at that point, it starts looking like a cultural labeling issue(because lifestyles aren't THAT different between the US and Europe). I am very suspicious for diagnosis that are reputed to be mostly unchangeable by behavior, yet no actual biological test exists for. Neuroscience is legit. Beyond that? Ehhhh.

*The drugs themselves are a weird area. You have people seeking out the drugs to get an advantage, and skeptical doctors as a result, and then you have doctors that straight up told me that EVERYONE should be on these drugs, since they give people an advantage.

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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby Azrael » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:47 am UTC

zmic wrote:This thread is going to get locked so hard.

No, but I certainly expect a few posters to get booted.

... nah, I'm messing just with you.

Although, maybe not?

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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby addams » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:05 am UTC

engr wrote:
Jerome K. Jerome wrote: In the present instance, going back to the liver-pill circular, I had the symptoms, beyond all mistake, the chief among them being “a general disinclination to work of any kind.”

What I suffer in that way no tongue can tell. From my earliest infancy I have been a martyr to it. As a boy, the disease hardly ever left me for a day. They did not know, then, that it was my liver. Medical science was in a far less advanced state than now, and they used to put it down to laziness.

“Why, you skulking little devil, you,” they would say, “get up and do something for your living, can’t you?” — not knowing, of course, that I was ill.

And they didn’t give me pills; they gave me clumps on the side of the head. And, strange as it may appear, those clumps on the head often cured me — for the time being. I have known one clump on the head have more effect upon my liver, and make me feel more anxious to go straight away then and there, and do what was wanted to be done, without further loss of time, than a whole box of pills does now.

You know, it often is so — those simple, old-fashioned remedies are sometimes more efficacious than all the dispensary stuff.


In the end, if you have a mental illness diagnosed in the US at a rate dozen of times higher than anywhere else, you got three options...

1. It is one of these mental illnesses that are highly ethnicity-specific (not very common, but happens).
2. American psychiatrists are geniuses and everyone else are idiots who cannot diagnose.
3. The condition exists, but it is vastly overdiagnosed in the US because, for instance, psychiatrists are under pressure from patients' parents. If you tell them that their precious little snowflake needs a good kick in a butt and not ritalin, they may take their business elsewhere.

It seems we are going to get booted.
So; Let's Victum Bash while we can!

Well? What do you think, Europe?
Did we get a bad batch of Vaccine?

If this happened to one of our Patients,
How would we respond?

It is a Whole Nation of People.
It can be diagnosed as a whole.

One of the letters in DSM means Statistics.
Statistics is a Religon. Call in The Priests.

1 in 9 are ADHD.
1 in 20 are Autism Spectrum.
1 in 10, 000 have permanent physical brain damage from Drug Accidents some on Purpose.
(can't really call it an on purpose. can we?)
1/1000 that can not meet the minimum academic requirements for Adulthood.

I think it is an interesting perspective.
An entire Nation as a special needs situation.

How does the UN address this?
Not a problem The Founders anticipated?
Did ManKind Assume the US was and always would be Sane?

Silly ManKind.
Made an Ass of U and Me.
Didn't we?
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We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby Brace » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:00 am UTC

engr wrote:3. The condition exists, but it is vastly overdiagnosed in the US because, for instance, psychiatrists are under pressure from patients' parents. If you tell them that their precious little snowflake needs a good kick in a butt and not ritalin, they may take their business elsewhere.


This is also true if you tell them their precious little snowflake has a more problematic condition, so the overdiagnosing of one generally palatable thing can easily lead to the underdiagnosing of other, much more serious things.
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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby Cleverbeans » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:09 am UTC

I consider ADHD to be a diagnosis allowing doctors to legally prescribe amphetamines for performance enhancement at school and work. I got my prescription in less than 5 minutes by telling the psychiatrist I had ADD and wanted amphetamines. He just signed off immediately with no more analysis or case history. I went in for a regular visit to talk about side effects and dosages but no attempt was ever made to rigorously diagnose me.
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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:32 am UTC

engr wrote:3. The condition exists, but it is vastly overdiagnosed in the US because, for instance, psychiatrists are under pressure from patients' parents. If you tell them that their precious little snowflake needs a good kick in a butt and not ritalin, they may take their business elsewhere.
You know, it's almost as if people have already stated above some of the far more legitimate reasons why it is overdiagnosed in the US.

Plus, it could be both somewhat overdiagnosed here *and* underdiagnosed elsewhere, for a whole host of reasons unrelated to your precious snowflake nonsense. (Yes, obviously that is part of it in some cases, but like the welfare queen nonsense, it is vastly overstated in an effort to delegitimize the entire conversation.)
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:38 am UTC

On the issue of misdiagnosis, there's a nice study here that implies that ADHD may be regularly misdiagnosed essentially due to within-year age immaturity. Essentially, if schools have a registration cutoff in say, September (as in this case), then students born in August (the youngest children in the class) are almost 60% more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD than their peers born the previous September (the oldest children in the class), and twice as likely to be prescribed medication by the fifth and eight grades.

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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby addams » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:05 pm UTC

yes. And, Boys are diagnosed at a higher rate.
"A boys will is the wind's will" and all that Jazz.

Take a boy, keep him in Royal Splendor, expect him to act like a Cat.
When he acts like a Dog, drug him.
There is No Way, it is that simple.

A Conspiracy Theory!
Spoiler:
They put it in US vaccines.
They are the Government.

The question is: Which Government?

Spoiler:
Hey! It's like blondes.
It's not going away.

The normal human responds is to make fun of it.

Spoiler:
How many ADHD people does it take to change a lightbulb?

Spoiler:
All Of Them!
And! It Still Won't Be Done Right!


There is a fine line between an ADHD guy and an AssHole, sometimes.
And; That is why we need dispassionate professionals, sometimes.

Professionals recuse themselves.
Professionals are recused.

If I step back from Dx of My Child, because I care too much.
Why do most Americans not step back from Dx themselves?

In my experience, the American today can in Good Faith diagnose its self.
1. It really does not give much of a flying fuck.
2. It thinks it Knows every thing, all at one time.

Spoiler:
Because The TV tells Them so.
Do you know the Song, "Jesus Loves Me" ?

It is a child's song.
At one time, Every-fucking-One knew that song.
Because The TV tells them so.

Who Told Them So?
In the old days, The Bible Told Me So.

It was Sooo Cute!
Two and Three year old children singing, "The Bible Told Me So."
The Bible did not tell them so. They can't read. And; They know it.

What were they told The Bible says?
They say, "The Bible says, "Jesus Loves Me.".

"Of course! Jesus Loves Me!
Everyone Does! Bye, Teacher!"

Not All! Just, a lot.
Last edited by addams on Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:58 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby Darryl » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:24 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:On the issue of misdiagnosis, there's a nice study here that implies that ADHD may be regularly misdiagnosed essentially due to within-year age immaturity. Essentially, if schools have a registration cutoff in say, September (as in this case), then students born in August (the youngest children in the class) are almost 60% more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD than their peers born the previous September (the oldest children in the class), and twice as likely to be prescribed medication by the fifth and eight grades.

There's also a huge issue of gender bias in diagnosis of ADHD. Young girls are massively underdiagnosed when it comes to ADHD, primarily because several of the symptoms fall into stereotypes of how young girls act.
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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby addams » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:03 pm UTC

Darryl wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:On the issue of misdiagnosis, there's a nice study here that implies that ADHD may be regularly misdiagnosed essentially due to within-year age immaturity. Essentially, if schools have a registration cutoff in say, September (as in this case), then students born in August (the youngest children in the class) are almost 60% more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD than their peers born the previous September (the oldest children in the class), and twice as likely to be prescribed medication by the fifth and eight grades.

There's also a huge issue of gender bias in diagnosis of ADHD. Young girls are massively underdiagnosed when it comes to ADHD, primarily because several of the symptoms fall into stereotypes of how young girls act.

Before I read the Science Lit.
If we have a Sense of Humor, it should be taken out and dusted off, when discussing children.

Better men than I am have laughed at Children and the GoofBalls they keep as Keepers.

Who is Running the Asylum?
!The Squeaky Wheel!

EDIT:
ok. I read it.
The Good Doctor's article from the First Post, stands.
(holy fuck) It stands stronger, now.

Some of this stuff reminds me of the Heady Days of Freud and Jung and (wtf) The Councle of Judia?
Very Political.

Who profits? Who knows??
Who is harmed? The Poor People. (of fucking course)

What did you read?
I read that Women can get on the Excuse Train, too.

Many women are in their late 30s or early 40s before they are diagnosed with ADHD. "One of the most common pathways to a woman being diagnosed is that one of her children is diagnosed. She begins to educate herself and recognizes traits in herself," says Nadeau. "These women are [usually] going to be older," because children are typically diagnosed with ADHD in mid-to-late elementary school.


Did you read how The Woman gets there?
If she has children.
If she has a difficult child.
If she has had monetary difficulties.
If she has been divorced.
There is a laundry list in that article.

Four out of nine? For Dx of Late Dx ADHD?
!BINGO!

For a Man this Dx is an excuse.
For a Woman this Dx is a reason.

Sexist? Sure!
And; Woman will ruthlessly rally in favor of this approach.
Because; Woman are AssHoles, too.

Can you hear the conversations?
Sometimes straight out.
Sometimes between the lines.

"You fucked up your life because you have ADHD.
And; You might be Psychotic and have Substance Abuse Problems, too.
Old untreated woman like you, often have Substance Abuse Problems?"

More Coffee, Honey?
Coffee Is a Substance.
Do you abuse Substances? Like Coffee?

What? A Luxury? You are getting High on Coffee.
And; enjoying it?

It keeps you from falling asleep while waiting outside the school, for the children at 3pm?
Why? You poor sweet thing. You wonder why you can't stay awake in the afternoon and can't sleep at night.

You need to talk to The Nurse.
They are now telling you you are diseased.
You have been diseased all your life?

That is why the economy tanked.
Because you have ADHD.

That is why your Son acts like That! (what is he doing Now?)
Because he got it from you.

You look like you need a Beer.
Is that what you need?
A Beer?

Not a job that pays well enough to support you?
Can't find one of those? Beers are easy to find.

You need to talk to the School Nurse, but that is not allowed.
Because you are an adult. It is too fucking late for you.

ADHD is a Golden Ticket for a Man.
He can lose interest in taking the trash out and it's OK!
Because he has ADHD.

ADHD looks like one more Reason for a woman to Fail.

Men are Dx'ed before they Fail.
Women ar Dx'ed after they Fail.

Some will say, "Thank God! It's ADHD. Mom said it was something I did."
Others may join the Depression Thread.

How helpless a woman must feel.
Standing in her child's classroom and hearing the teacher say, "Your Son is a Mess. We suspect you of ADHD. "
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby Tirian » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:58 pm UTC

lanicita wrote:Nobody here is arguing that it's not overdiagnosed. In the US, it is, absolutely (due to many of the reasons in my previous post, as well as the fact that many people qualified to diagnose it such as doctors aren't actually very well trained in diagnosing it, as well as the fact that med companies do work hard to get people to buy their product). That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You're arguing two very different things - that it's overdiagnosed, and that it doesn't exist at all because it's so prevalent. Those are mutually exclusive. The first is correct and the second is not.


First off, diagnosing ADHD is relatively simple. I am not trained in the changes made to the DSM-5 criteria, but I gather that it is not substantially different from the checklist in the DSM-IV-TR. As a teacher, I am not qualified to formally diagnose ADHD, but I am more than capable of compiling the evidence that would justify a psychiatrist's diagnosis. I bristle at the word "overdiagnosed"; it suggests that people are diagnosed with ADHD who don't meet the criteria for it, and that seems hard to believe to any significant degree. It might be more accurate to say that ADHD is commonly mistreated, although that claim deserves tangible evidence.

Perhaps a metaphor would explain the paradoxical claim that ADHD is simultaneously real and non-existent. I trust there is no disagreement that headaches exist. And yet, when you go to the doctor with a headache, he or she does not diagnose you with Headache Disorder and prescribe a mixture of the three most popular painkillers out of an understanding that that seems to help many people afflicted with this Headache Disorder. What DOES happen is that your doctor will go a step deeper and try to figure out the root cause of your headache and then prescribe a treatment for the disorder that is causing the headache. In the same way, it seems very plausible to claim that chronic inattention, hyperactivity, and impulsivity observed in a variety of environments is "a thing". But I am similarly sympathetic to the suggestion that it is not a mental disorder in its own right but rather a symptom in a galaxy of significantly distinct disorders that would demand similarly distinct treatments.

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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby addams » Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:15 pm UTC

Tirian wrote:
lanicita wrote:Nobody here is arguing that it's not overdiagnosed. In the US, it is, absolutely (due to many of the reasons in my previous post, as well as the fact that many people qualified to diagnose it such as doctors aren't actually very well trained in diagnosing it, as well as the fact that med companies do work hard to get people to buy their product). That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You're arguing two very different things - that it's overdiagnosed, and that it doesn't exist at all because it's so prevalent. Those are mutually exclusive. The first is correct and the second is not.


First off, diagnosing ADHD is relatively simple. I am not trained in the changes made to the DSM-5 criteria, but I gather that it is not substantially different from the checklist in the DSM-IV-TR. As a teacher, I am not qualified to formally diagnose ADHD, but I am more than capable of compiling the evidence that would justify a psychiatrist's diagnosis. I bristle at the word "overdiagnosed"; it suggests that people are diagnosed with ADHD who don't meet the criteria for it, and that seems hard to believe to any significant degree. It might be more accurate to say that ADHD is commonly mistreated, although that claim deserves tangible evidence.

Perhaps a metaphor would explain the paradoxical claim that ADHD is simultaneously real and non-existent. I trust there is no disagreement that headaches exist. And yet, when you go to the doctor with a headache, he or she does not diagnose you with Headache Disorder and prescribe a mixture of the three most popular painkillers out of an understanding that that seems to help many people afflicted with this Headache Disorder. What DOES happen is that your doctor will go a step deeper and try to figure out the root cause of your headache and then prescribe a treatment for the disorder that is causing the headache. In the same way, it seems very plausible to claim that chronic inattention, hyperactivity, and impulsivity observed in a variety of environments is "a thing". But I am similarly sympathetic to the suggestion that it is not a mental disorder in its own right but rather a symptom in a galaxy of significantly distinct disorders that would demand similarly distinct treatments.

Amen.
America has a headache.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:23 pm UTC

Tirian wrote:
lanicita wrote:Nobody here is arguing that it's not overdiagnosed. In the US, it is, absolutely (due to many of the reasons in my previous post, as well as the fact that many people qualified to diagnose it such as doctors aren't actually very well trained in diagnosing it, as well as the fact that med companies do work hard to get people to buy their product). That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You're arguing two very different things - that it's overdiagnosed, and that it doesn't exist at all because it's so prevalent. Those are mutually exclusive. The first is correct and the second is not.


First off, diagnosing ADHD is relatively simple. I am not trained in the changes made to the DSM-5 criteria, but I gather that it is not substantially different from the checklist in the DSM-IV-TR. As a teacher, I am not qualified to formally diagnose ADHD, but I am more than capable of compiling the evidence that would justify a psychiatrist's diagnosis. I bristle at the word "overdiagnosed"; it suggests that people are diagnosed with ADHD who don't meet the criteria for it, and that seems hard to believe to any significant degree.


According to this study, trained child psychiatrists and psychologists get ADHD diagnoses wrong about 20% of the time according to DSM criteria, with a heavy bias toward overdiagnosing boys.

As a teacher, I am not qualified to formally diagnose ADHD, but I am more than capable of compiling the evidence that would justify a psychiatrist's diagnosis.


[edit]Also, this is wrong unless you also know the child in some capacity that is not school. ADHD diagnoses requires that the symptoms be present in at least two different venues.
Last edited by LaserGuy on Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:42 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby nitePhyyre » Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:35 pm UTC

lanicita wrote:I desperately want to make a sarcastic comment, but let me instead introduce the idea of hyperfocus.
Children with ADD [...] are averse to doing things they don't want to do
ZOMG. One of the symptoms of ADD is suffering from tautologies!
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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:38 pm UTC

Tirian wrote:First off, diagnosing ADHD is relatively simple. I am not trained in the changes made to the DSM-5 criteria, but I gather that it is not substantially different from the checklist in the DSM-IV-TR. As a teacher, I am not qualified to formally diagnose ADHD, but I am more than capable of compiling the evidence that would justify a psychiatrist's diagnosis. I bristle at the word "overdiagnosed"; it suggests that people are diagnosed with ADHD who don't meet the criteria for it, and that seems hard to believe to any significant degree. It might be more accurate to say that ADHD is commonly mistreated, although that claim deserves tangible evidence.


Either americans are substantially different mentally than the rest of the world, or overdiagnosis is happening here, or underdiagnosis is happening literally everywhere else. Or some combination. It seems extremely probable that overdiagnosis is at least partially responsible.

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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby Tirian » Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:54 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Tirian wrote:
lanicita wrote:Nobody here is arguing that it's not overdiagnosed. In the US, it is, absolutely (due to many of the reasons in my previous post, as well as the fact that many people qualified to diagnose it such as doctors aren't actually very well trained in diagnosing it, as well as the fact that med companies do work hard to get people to buy their product). That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You're arguing two very different things - that it's overdiagnosed, and that it doesn't exist at all because it's so prevalent. Those are mutually exclusive. The first is correct and the second is not.


First off, diagnosing ADHD is relatively simple. I am not trained in the changes made to the DSM-5 criteria, but I gather that it is not substantially different from the checklist in the DSM-IV-TR. As a teacher, I am not qualified to formally diagnose ADHD, but I am more than capable of compiling the evidence that would justify a psychiatrist's diagnosis. I bristle at the word "overdiagnosed"; it suggests that people are diagnosed with ADHD who don't meet the criteria for it, and that seems hard to believe to any significant degree.


According to this study, trained child psychiatrists and psychologists get ADHD diagnoses wrong about 20% of the time according to DSM criteria, with a heavy bias toward overdiagnosing boys.


Academic papers can be dense at times, so I may have missed parts. But it looks to me (p. 132) that their second pretest asking for DSM-based diagnoses had 100% correct responses, and then they changed their "real" test to ask only for IDC-10 codes, which they confess are "less operationalized". They claim that it's the same thing, but the results seem so starkly different that it leads me to wonder if the DSM/IDC-10 distinction isn't the significant finding.

As a teacher, I am not qualified to formally diagnose ADHD, but I am more than capable of compiling the evidence that would justify a psychiatrist's diagnosis.


[edit]Also, this is wrong unless you also know the child in some capacity that is not school. ADHD diagnoses requires that the symptoms be present in at least two different venues.


When I say "compiling" evidence, I don't mean to suggest that I am the sole observer. As you rightly point out, an important part of that evidence are artifacts showing that the behavior is happening in multiple settings, which would generally involve interviewing parents or other caregivers/authorities to verify the behaviors exist outside school. Of course, if my students are over 7, then neither I nor anyone else could directly observe that the behavior was present before the age of 7.

ETA:

Tyndmyr wrote:Either americans are substantially different mentally than the rest of the world, or overdiagnosis is happening here, or underdiagnosis is happening literally everywhere else. Or some combination. It seems extremely probable that overdiagnosis is at least partially responsible.


I would first note that the study LaserGuy posted discussing overdiagnosis was studying German clinicians, not Americans. I freely grant that the same phenomena might well happen to American clinicians, but it suggests that the threat of misdiagnosis is a global challenge.

Second, I believe the data shows that the process of diagnosis is undertaken very unevenly, and that doesn't surprise me based on my observations. It's not just Americans, but I have heard of significant regional distinctions (East Coast having far more cases than the West Coast), and I wouldn't be surprised if there were also major urban/suburban/rural differences as well. It would be interesting to see a study that tested a thousand random children for ADHD instead of the normal course of only testing students who are "nominated" for testing by teachers and parents who have presumably reached the end of their individual endurance at coping with the child's behavior. In the mean time, I suppose we can decide for ourselves whether more students are missing valuable therapies or avoiding harmful ones.

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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:48 pm UTC

Tirian wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:
Tirian wrote:
lanicita wrote:Nobody here is arguing that it's not overdiagnosed. In the US, it is, absolutely (due to many of the reasons in my previous post, as well as the fact that many people qualified to diagnose it such as doctors aren't actually very well trained in diagnosing it, as well as the fact that med companies do work hard to get people to buy their product). That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You're arguing two very different things - that it's overdiagnosed, and that it doesn't exist at all because it's so prevalent. Those are mutually exclusive. The first is correct and the second is not.


First off, diagnosing ADHD is relatively simple. I am not trained in the changes made to the DSM-5 criteria, but I gather that it is not substantially different from the checklist in the DSM-IV-TR. As a teacher, I am not qualified to formally diagnose ADHD, but I am more than capable of compiling the evidence that would justify a psychiatrist's diagnosis. I bristle at the word "overdiagnosed"; it suggests that people are diagnosed with ADHD who don't meet the criteria for it, and that seems hard to believe to any significant degree.


According to this study, trained child psychiatrists and psychologists get ADHD diagnoses wrong about 20% of the time according to DSM criteria, with a heavy bias toward overdiagnosing boys.


Academic papers can be dense at times, so I may have missed parts. But it looks to me (p. 132) that their second pretest asking for DSM-based diagnoses had 100% correct responses, and then they changed their "real" test to ask only for IDC-10 codes, which they confess are "less operationalized". They claim that it's the same thing, but the results seem so starkly different that it leads me to wonder if the DSM/IDC-10 distinction isn't the significant finding.


Uh, no, that's the wrong part of the paper. You're looking at the part where they did a pre-test to make sure that the templates they were using clearly met the DSM standards according to experts. The main results are, unsurprisingly, in the "results" section starting on page 5 (132). Here's the key findings:

Spoiler:
Figure 1 shows the percentage of ADHD diagnoses for the
various vignettes. Taken together, in all six non-ADHD vignettes
(Vignettes 2–4 with Leon and Lea), 16.7% of the therapists
diagnosed ADHD (see also Table 2), 57% of the therapists made
another diagnosis, and 10.2% stated that they would give no
diagnosis at all. Some therapists did not make a definite diagnostic
decision, even though they were asked to do so. Of the therapists,
9.9% stated that they did not have enough information to give a
diagnosis. Of the therapists, 5.8% noted “suspected ADHD” in-
stead of making a definite diagnosis
In contrast, 78.9% of therapists diagnosed ADHD in Vignette 1
(ADHD fulfilled), whereas 7% of the therapists gave a diagnosis
other than ADHD (see Table 2). A number of therapists did not
make a definite diagnostic decision. That is, 9.6% stated that they
did not have enough information to give a diagnosis, and a further
4.4% diagnosed “suspected ADHD."
In addition, we compared the rate of false positive diagnoses
(diagnosis of ADHD in the non-ADHD vignettes) with the rate of
false negative diagnoses (diagnosis other than ADHD in the
ADHD vignette). In Vignette 1 (ADHD), eight out of 114 (7.0%)
were diagnoses other than ADHD (false negative diagnoses). In
contrast, in Vignettes 2–4 (non-ADHD), 57 of 342 (16.7%) were
ADHD diagnoses (false positive diagnoses). This difference was
significant, showing significantly more false positive than false negative
diagnoses, which indicates an overdiagnosis of ADHD.

Figure 1 shows that when adding up the diagnoses in the
three non-ADHD vignettes (i.e., Vignettes 2–4), about twice as
many ADHD diagnoses were given in the boy condition compared
with the girl condition.


tl;dr: 16.7% of diagnoses were false positives (ie. ADHD when none was present). This was found to be significantly higher than the rate of false negatives, indicating overdiagnosis. Boys are about twice as likely to be false positives, but there is no statistically significant gender difference for false negatives.

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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby Tirian » Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:14 pm UTC

My point was that the pre-work showed the process where they told the clinicians to use only the IDC-10 codes to justify their diagnosis instead of referencing the DSM in the "real" study. According to them, the differences between the second pre-test and the "real" study was removing ambiguity (which should hardly be expected to increase misdiagnosis) and removing reference to the DSM. So when the final study shows significant overdiagnosis and the second pre-test does not (indeed, there is no misdiagnosis at all), it's unclear to me how they justify the claim that the DSM is part of the problem. I'm not disputing the results of this study: a significant number of German clinicians use their own judgment in diagnosing ADHD and their personal bias is full of gender fail. This may be true in the United States as well. But if you want to challenge the assertion that the DSM is "relatively simple" to apply, you should probably cite a study in which the DSM is referenced in the final survey.

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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:08 pm UTC

Tirian wrote:My point was that the pre-work showed the process where they told the clinicians to use only the IDC-10 codes to justify their diagnosis instead of referencing the DSM in the "real" study. According to them, the differences between the second pre-test and the "real" study was removing ambiguity (which should hardly be expected to increase misdiagnosis) and removing reference to the DSM. So when the final study shows significant overdiagnosis and the second pre-test does not (indeed, there is no misdiagnosis at all), it's unclear to me how they justify the claim that the DSM is part of the problem. I'm not disputing the results of this study: a significant number of German clinicians use their own judgment in diagnosing ADHD and their personal bias is full of gender fail. This may be true in the United States as well. But if you want to challenge the assertion that the DSM is "relatively simple" to apply, you should probably cite a study in which the DSM is referenced in the final survey.


Well let's see:
In a study of 92 schoolchildren previously diagnosed with ADHD, this study finds that only 57 of them had symptoms consistent with ADHD and not some other mental or emotional problem. This is using DSM.

In this one, only 72% of the 457 children who were given ADHD diagnoses were actually found to meet the DSM criteria.

Children with bipolar disorder or major depressive disorder are frequently misdiagnosed with ADHD. DSM, again. Overdiagnosis, again.

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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby apricity » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:48 pm UTC

Tirian wrote:
lanicita wrote:Nobody here is arguing that it's not overdiagnosed. In the US, it is, absolutely (due to many of the reasons in my previous post, as well as the fact that many people qualified to diagnose it such as doctors aren't actually very well trained in diagnosing it, as well as the fact that med companies do work hard to get people to buy their product). That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You're arguing two very different things - that it's overdiagnosed, and that it doesn't exist at all because it's so prevalent. Those are mutually exclusive. The first is correct and the second is not.

First off, diagnosing ADHD is relatively simple. I am not trained in the changes made to the DSM-5 criteria, but I gather that it is not substantially different from the checklist in the DSM-IV-TR. As a teacher, I am not qualified to formally diagnose ADHD, but I am more than capable of compiling the evidence that would justify a psychiatrist's diagnosis. I bristle at the word "overdiagnosed"; it suggests that people are diagnosed with ADHD who don't meet the criteria for it, and that seems hard to believe to any significant degree.
As someone who is trained in formally diagnosing AD/HD educationally, I can say it doesn't require a whole lot of training. However, the DSM is not just a checklist. The biggest problems in overdiagnosis are the exclusionary factors (in the DSM-5, behaviors must occur in two or more settings, symptom onset must be before age 12, symptoms must interfere with school/work/home performance, and symptoms cannot be better explained by another mental disorder). Plenty of diagnosticians just don't do enough work to tease those out, especially to look into possible other problems such as sleep or mood disorders. Some do the checklist and are done with it.

Perhaps a metaphor would explain the paradoxical claim that ADHD is simultaneously real and non-existent. I trust there is no disagreement that headaches exist. And yet, when you go to the doctor with a headache, he or she does not diagnose you with Headache Disorder and prescribe a mixture of the three most popular painkillers out of an understanding that that seems to help many people afflicted with this Headache Disorder. What DOES happen is that your doctor will go a step deeper and try to figure out the root cause of your headache and then prescribe a treatment for the disorder that is causing the headache. In the same way, it seems very plausible to claim that chronic inattention, hyperactivity, and impulsivity observed in a variety of environments is "a thing". But I am similarly sympathetic to the suggestion that it is not a mental disorder in its own right but rather a symptom in a galaxy of significantly distinct disorders that would demand similarly distinct treatments.
I do agree that there may be distinct disorders that should be treated differently. For example, there is a group of people with AD/HD for whom stimulants do not help at all. They may have a different underlying problem with similar outward symptoms. There is a school of thought that says AD/HD inattentive type is really a deficit in executive functioning. And so on.
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BlackSails
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Re: ADHD is not a real disease

Postby BlackSails » Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:17 am UTC

But I am similarly sympathetic to the suggestion that it is not a mental disorder in its own right but rather a symptom in a galaxy of significantly distinct disorders that would demand similarly distinct treatments.


You can make this argument about any psychological condition, and really, almost any disease, even things with plainly obvious defects, like fractures or cancer.


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