Pakistan polio workers targeted

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sardia
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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby sardia » Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:59 pm UTC

If it leads to an uncomfortable conclusion, it's worth taking a second look. How is a religion written by a dude centuries old at fault here? Maybe there's just a patriarchial society that doesn't empower women and is ravaged by income inequality?

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby davidstarlingm » Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:38 pm UTC

sardia wrote:If it leads to an uncomfortable conclusion, it's worth taking a second look. How is a religion written by a dude centuries old at fault here? Maybe there's just a patriarchial society that doesn't empower women and is ravaged by income inequality?

Yeah, that might have something to do with it. Despite my belief that Islam is pretty much not cool.

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby morriswalters » Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:49 pm UTC

I sure it is wrong, I am less sure that it is evil. One conclusion is a product of my cultural matrix. The other seems to be a product of the same process that produced the behavior you dislike. Evil may well exist, but no one has shown malevolence in this process.
Tyndmyr wrote:I am quite comfortable asserting that any religion that requires mutilation to prevent happiness is evil.
You seem to have a well developed sense of evil. I could state that I am equally happy asserting that any society that uses torture as a means to protect itself is evil. If so where does that leave us in the US?

sardia wrote:If it leads to an uncomfortable conclusion, it's worth taking a second look. How is a religion written by a dude centuries old at fault here? Maybe there's just a patriarchial society that doesn't empower women and is ravaged by income inequality?
Quite possibly. In fact I am sure in fact that there are multiple reasons for the behavior. However I classify it as barbaric rather than evil. It is practiced in places that don't have access to our advanced culture [?sarcasm]. However no matter what you think evil is, the use of the word primes you to demonize the people who practice the behavior rather than seeing them acting within their culture. Once you do that history tells me that the next step is to beat it out of them, or just flat out exterminate them.

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:56 pm UTC

Like I said before, Islam itself isn't exactly any worse than most other mainstream religions. Much of what people picture when they think of Islam is comparable to Medieval Christianity. Arguably even the more theocratic versions of Islam are better than what was going on in Europe 500 years ago; Iran, while running a brutal Theocracy, has a pseudo multicultural society that unlike Pre-reformation Europe, allows Zoroastrians, Jews, and a few others to even exist in that country. As second class citizens mind you, and clearly less egalitarian than most of Europe today, but that's better than what was going on in Europe during the 30 Years War.

Buddhism is no different, despite being marketed as a bunch of peace-loving hippies. Neither is Hinduism. Nor any other religion really. It's not the religion itself; it rarely is. The religion is nothing more than a tool twisted to whatever purpose the people in control of the religion want to use it for.

What the Taliban is, is a group that wants to have complete control over everyone's life. They go beyond Conservative and into the territory of Regressive in their attempts to undo any egalitarianism that may have begun to germinate. Part of the reason for their intense hatred of anything "Western" is that exposure to "Western" media tends to make people question just why they even need the strict theocracy, with television and movies that shows what appears to be a "better" life. This is a threat to any Regressive, so to keep power they must always torch anything that isn't "theirs".

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby sardia » Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:05 pm UTC

I'm pretty sure the solution involves solving the income inequality and market reforms in Pakistan. It's kinda pointless to offer Western Ideas when they can't even support a family. We've done this before in Africa, albeit with much less violence.

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby addams » Sat Dec 21, 2013 2:24 am UTC

sardia wrote:I'm pretty sure the solution involves solving the income inequality and market reforms in Pakistan. It's kinda pointless to offer Western Ideas when they can't even support a family. We've done this before in Africa, albeit with much less violence.

Yes. Sardia;
I think you are correct.

I also think that the US does not have any business on the Ground in Pakistan.
If by 'we' you mean the entire World Community, then you are as Right as Rain.

If you can talk the Americans out the the Middle East;
Maybe you can talk some other people into it.

oh. You know; People.
There are teachers and nurses and doctors and Nannies or several stripes and flavors
that would be willing to go and help The People.

How income inequality is fixed is a big question.
I have no idea how it is done.
I know it needs to be done here and there.

I don't know what you see. What I see, is a world that teeters too close to the edge of a Dickinson like Nightmare.
CorruptUser wrote:Buddhism is no different, despite being marketed as a bunch of peace-loving hippies. Neither is Hinduism. Nor any other religion really. It's not the religion itself; it rarely is. The religion is nothing more than a tool twisted to whatever purpose the people in control of the religion want to use it for.

What the Taliban is, is a group that wants to have complete control over everyone's life. They go beyond Conservative and into the territory of Regressive in their attempts to undo any egalitarianism that may have begun to germinate. Part of the reason for their intense hatred of anything "Western" is that exposure to "Western" media tends to make people question just why they even need the strict theocracy, with television and movies that shows what appears to be a "better" life. This is a threat to any Regressive, so to keep power they must always torch anything that isn't "theirs".


In the first paragraph quoted, I think you give too little credit to people of Faith.
When you write that people of Faith are so easily manipulated I think it is unfair.

Of course, I will leave the question Open. Because, you may be correct.
I have a tendency to be too tolerant. I give other people the benefit of the doubt.

In the second paragraph you state the people of Pakistan have an intense hatred of anything Western.
I think you may be wrong. Of course, if we keep this shit up, they may become more passionate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1YAv_tPmho
This little clip is not filmed in Pakistan.
I think it may be enlightening.

How much would you know about how much they hate us, if you did not have Wi-Fi?
They must hear a lot about US. They may not talk about us as much as we do.

Yes. I know that clip has a 9/11 avert.
I am not sure it is possible to have anything about 9/11 without an advert at the end.
It is legal. Not recommended?
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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Dec 21, 2013 2:44 am UTC

No, the Taliban has a hatred of anything "western". Pakistan, it varies from person to person.

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby addams » Sat Dec 21, 2013 2:50 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:No, the Taliban has a hatred of anything "western". Pakistan, it varies from person to person.

How very important is it to treat the individual people well?

Or; Are the Taliban so frightening and powerful that caution must be abandoned in the name of safety?
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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby Zamfir » Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:03 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:No, the Taliban has a hatred of anything "western". Pakistan, it varies from person to person.

I think it's wise to extend this one step more. The Taliban are not a monolithic mind either. People associate with the label more or less, and hatred of the US varies as well. Let alone against a vague 'west'.

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby BeerBottle » Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:29 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Yes, but only because it's a serious fucking issue. I mean holy shit the Taliban is mutilating baby vaginas because they believe it's a terrible sin for women to be happy (unless they are happy to be slaves to a man); you can't get more obviously evil than that.
Um, do the Pakistani/Afghan Taliban actually do FGM? Everyone here sort of states it like it is obvious, but after a while searching I can't find anything online to suggest they do. Is the assumption they are highly conservative muslims, therefore they do FGM? Because that's a terrible assumption.

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby addams » Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:42 am UTC

BeerBottle wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Yes, but only because it's a serious fucking issue. I mean holy shit the Taliban is mutilating baby vaginas because they believe it's a terrible sin for women to be happy (unless they are happy to be slaves to a man); you can't get more obviously evil than that.
Um, do the Pakistani/Afghan Taliban actually do FGM? Everyone here sort of states it like it is obvious, but after a while searching I can't find anything online to suggest they do. Is the assumption they are highly conservative muslims, therefore they do FGM? Because that's a terrible assumption.

Hell-o;
Female Circumcisions are a very different subject from Murder of Adult Women.
No. No, Dear Poster; That is not something the people of Pakistan are, usually, famous for.

It is nice that you looked. Thank you for checking.
Of course, if the internet says it is true; It still might not be true.

umm. I have been posting on this thread and I would like to think my posts did not read in a way that sounds like FGM is a commonly understood feature of the culture of Pakistan. I do not believe that is true.

You are correct. To allow a strong mental connection between FGM and Islam is a terrible thing to do.
Like Jr. Hight School Girls! You caught us doing something bad? We are going to tell about what you did!

You did not do it? We don't care.
Who are 'they'going to believe?

The Posters with the fascia-fucking-nating accusations of FGM or some Women that live in fear of The Americans?
Were they Americans? Was it American Money?

The US is 4 Trillion Dollars in Debt. Yet; It can afford to set up and run pretend medical programs?
That seems to be true. The FGM is such a flashy and creepy issue, it will made anyone that is not doing that look like a Saint.

Do you want to go back through the posts on this tread and ask the Posters that brought FGM up about why that was done?
What good would it do?

Do you want to go back and ask why the posters were discussing the amputation of children's limbs, too?
That would be almost as productive.

FGM is a serios issue and it was well on its way to being a thing of the past.
We do not want to forget. Like the Death Camps in Poland, we must keep our memories.

It is best to get our memories straight. That is a different thread; I hope.
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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:08 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:I sure it is wrong, I am less sure that it is evil. One conclusion is a product of my cultural matrix. The other seems to be a product of the same process that produced the behavior you dislike. Evil may well exist, but no one has shown malevolence in this process.
Tyndmyr wrote:I am quite comfortable asserting that any religion that requires mutilation to prevent happiness is evil.
You seem to have a well developed sense of evil. I could state that I am equally happy asserting that any society that uses torture as a means to protect itself is evil. If so where does that leave us in the US?


People have tortured others. Torture is not required, and is not baked into the culture. Many of the terrible things Islam does to women are so incredibly pervasive as to make this comparison ludicrous.

An evil act is an evil act. A society in which basically everyone acts evilly is pretty damned evil. Yes, this would include our own society at times past(slavery? Sure. Evil.)

A mustache and cackling is not required to be evil.

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby sardia » Tue Dec 24, 2013 3:01 pm UTC

Do we have a source on FGM in Pakistan? All I can see in this thread is a quote from Omurin, and he's not the most reliable poster.

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Dec 24, 2013 3:22 pm UTC

Wikipedia.


Yeah, yeah, culture and all that. Call it Western Bias, but I am unable to view FGM as anything other than Evil. And my definition of "evil" is anything that causesa drop in Total Utility. That is, if something causes more harm than good, it is Evil. How to measure Total Utility is of course a thorny issue. Multiculturalism and tolerance end at the girl's right to have non-mutilated genitalia.

As for the difference between FGM and, umm, MGM, while circumcision may increase the time it takes for a man to ejaculate, due to the nature of human sexual interaction this is not necessarily a detriment.

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby BeerBottle » Tue Dec 24, 2013 3:53 pm UTC

The wikipedia article has 5 references to Pakistani FGM, none of which mention the Taliban. They do state that in Pakistan FGM is practiced by some ethnic communities, rather than muslims in general (as is the case worldwide). It is not at all widespread as far as I can tell.

The Taliban are undoubtedly nasty pieces of work. But interesting how easily people naturally assume they chop off children's arms en masse and do FGM. I suppose it makes it easier to support double tap drone strikes if you think everyone in a society is evil. After all ,everyone killed by a drone is a terrorist by definition, right (even the babies)?

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby morriswalters » Tue Dec 24, 2013 4:21 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Wikipedia.


Yeah, yeah, culture and all that. Call it Western Bias, but I am unable to view FGM as anything other than Evil. And my definition of "evil" is anything that causesa drop in Total Utility. That is, if something causes more harm than good, it is Evil. How to measure Total Utility is of course a thorny issue. Multiculturalism and tolerance end at the girl's right to have non-mutilated genitalia.

As for the difference between FGM and, umm, MGM, while circumcision may increase the time it takes for a man to ejaculate, due to the nature of human sexual interaction this is not necessarily a detriment.
Which still begs the question, do the Taliban express it as a goal?

Tyndmyr wrote:People have tortured others. Torture is not required, and is not baked into the culture. Many of the terrible things Islam does to women are so incredibly pervasive as to make this comparison ludicrous.
Torture is prevalent in this society and in the western cultures overall. You choose not to see it. We cloak it in various forms. Let me suggest a few. Think about how many organized sports exist to display pain and legal forms of violence for the amusement of an audience. Animal fighting, unsanctioned and illegal matches between men with no protection. Accepted sexual practices. I can be more explicit. And those behaviors exist here and now. We do it quieter and somewhat neater, hell we even pay people to accept it, be we do it.

I don't know how many times I have heard it argued here that are morals are relative, that they exist only in the mind of the people who have them, rather than an objective metric, true everywhere. Your statement is an assessment of the superiority of your moral position, predicated on your values. The fact that it doesn't match your expectations of how people should act based on the background of your culture, doesn't make it evil, however objectionable I find it..

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby addams » Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:03 pm UTC

BeerBottle wrote:The wikipedia article has 5 references to Pakistani FGM, none of which mention the Taliban. They do state that in Pakistan FGM is practiced by some ethnic communities, rather than muslims in general (as is the case worldwide). It is not at all widespread as far as I can tell.

The Taliban are undoubtedly nasty pieces of work. But interesting how easily people naturally assume they chop off children's arms en masse and do FGM. I suppose it makes it easier to support double tap drone strikes if you think everyone in a society is evil. After all ,everyone killed by a drone is a terrorist by definition, right (even the babies)?

What?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence ... by_country
Pakistan did not make the list.


Eritrea did.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eritrea

90% of all women effected? How?
umm. I met some women from Eritrea.

My first thought was, "I could not tell."
Then, "Of course, I could not tell. (silly)
A little circumcision for a woman is not much more trouble than one for a man."

It is true. If done correctly the clitoris is somewhat more exposed.
Like 90% of all American Men?

Off Topic! Sometimes some things are not done correctly.
Do you know about Brisk?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brit_milah

The way I understood it: In some far away, out of the way communities.
The idea to circumcise the child persisted, long after the knowledge of how to do it had been lost.

So; Do you know anything about female anatomy? Those folks did not have the internet.
It was a terrible thing. The people of Eritrea are in the middle east. That is a huge area.

What do the people of the Middle East do? I am still reeling. That is, surly, a matter of education. correct?
Spoiler:
I priest, a good man, goes to Heaven; As he should.
In Heaven he goes to the Library.

This is a Heavenly Library. Every word in Every book is True.
No Mistranslations.

St. Peter finds the man crying. St. Peter says, "Why are you crying, Brother?"
The priest sobs, "It Says Celebrate.
https://www.google.com/search?client=sa ... 8&oe=UTF-8
Not Celibate.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/celibate


Female circumcisions, when done correctly, should be a woman's choice.
Dang! All those women from Eritrea and I did not know!
Would I have asked? Yes. Maybe.

I don't know. Do you?
Is it a usual kind of thing for you to ask an American Man.

"Are you circumcised?" I ask. If you want to know, ask. Is it am offensive question? Why?
If they are Jewish, they are running a high risk of being circumcised. Only, Men!

ech. Who wants to know what is under your skirt?
If someone walked up to me in public and asked, "Are you circumcised?"
I might be so surprised, I may think I misunderstood. "Are you circumspect?"
https://www.google.com/search?client=sa ... 8&oe=UTF-8

The little squirrel in my head would be doing double time.
If I answered that question with a question. What would happen?

"Do I seem that kind of person?" Who is on first.

Shall we go back to Gossiping about Pakistan?
What?? Circusision of a male when done Wrong, will result in the removal of all or part of his penis.
When a female circumcision is done Wrong, the same thing happens.

Some people call the female penis, Clitoris.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clitoris

Darn it! Does someone need to go to the Mods and ask for a separate thread to be created?
Circumcision is a big deal to some people.

Circumcised people over Here!
Uncircumcised people over There!

Now what?
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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby elasto » Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:12 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Torture is prevalent in this society and in the western cultures overall. You choose not to see it. We cloak it in various forms. Let me suggest a few. Think about how many organized sports exist to display pain and legal forms of violence for the amusement of an audience. Animal fighting, unsanctioned and illegal matches between men with no protection. Accepted sexual practices. I can be more explicit. And those behaviors exist here and now. We do it quieter and somewhat neater, hell we even pay people to accept it, be we do it.

Agreed.

As another example, take the US penal system: People are locked up and brutalized for extraordinary lengths of time. Prison violence and rape are almost seen as 'features' and not 'bugs' - that if prison is 'a soft option' people will try less hard to go straight on leaving. But recidivism rates put the lie to that 'hope'.

The fact that it's prisoners torturing other prisoners does not absolve those running prisons of their moral obligations - and nor does it absolve society of its 'blind-eye turning' and 'hand-washing'.

Other societies show how criminals can be treated as normal human beings - and with better recidivism rates to boot.

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby addams » Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:30 pm UTC

yes. And that is another separate topic.
The US is holding its own people in conditions that are illegal in the US.

I know this true.
I was in a public meeting where a man named David Brock Smith was laughing about it.

I swear. But; That is Local to the US.
This thread is about Medical Workers in Pakistan.

Medical Personal do a dangerous and difficult job.
Two Nurses in Pakistan were murdered.

Any number of Nurses murdered, because they are Nurses is too many.
Where is the Moral High Ground?
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Some of us see The Gutter.
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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby EMTP » Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:07 pm UTC

Given that there are over a billion Muslims in the world, you are going to find some of them doing bad things. There are also Christians (1) and Jews (2) (and Hindus (3)) who do bad things. What I find people often do is compare the worst practices of Muslims to the best practices of non-Muslims. That's not likely to shed much light. Religious conservatives are often hostile to sex, patriarchal, homophobic and xenophobic. It's true of Muslim conservatives too. If Muslim conservatives are more prominent in specific societies than their Christian or Jewish counterparts, then it may be useful to ask why this is. Condemning Muslims as "evil" is religious bigotry -- ironically one of the qualities that anti-Muslim bigots most condemn in conservative Muslims.

------------------------

1. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/1 ... 60525.html
2.
Naama Margolese is a ponytailed, bespectacled second-grader who is afraid of walking to her religious Jewish girls school for fear of ultra-Orthodox extremists who have spat on her and called her a whore for dressing "immodestly."

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/israeli-gir ... ghts-rift/
3. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/24/opini ... ernational
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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:23 pm UTC

Oh, yes. The Muslim religion does not have a monopoly on evil. Evil is definitely found elsewhere, and other religious extremists are an excellent place to find it, for sure.

I also have no trouble describing the US prison system as evil.

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby Vahir » Wed Dec 25, 2013 2:13 am UTC

EMTP wrote:Given that there are over a billion Muslims in the world, you are going to find some of them doing bad things. There are also Christians (1) and Jews (2) (and Hindus (3)) who do bad things. What I find people often do is compare the worst practices of Muslims to the best practices of non-Muslims. That's not likely to shed much light. Religious conservatives are often hostile to sex, patriarchal, homophobic and xenophobic. It's true of Muslim conservatives too. If Muslim conservatives are more prominent in specific societies than their Christian or Jewish counterparts, then it may be useful to ask why this is. Condemning Muslims as "evil" is religious bigotry -- ironically one of the qualities that anti-Muslim bigots most condemn in conservative Muslims.

------------------------

1. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/1 ... 60525.html
2.
Naama Margolese is a ponytailed, bespectacled second-grader who is afraid of walking to her religious Jewish girls school for fear of ultra-Orthodox extremists who have spat on her and called her a whore for dressing "immodestly."

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/israeli-gir ... ghts-rift/
3. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/24/opini ... ernational


EMTP wrote:You bring up the classic deflection of the genocidal thug -- "But other people do it!" -- I really don't see how that is relevant, even if you were to show that equivalent crimes occurred.


That is all.

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby Angua » Wed Dec 25, 2013 8:21 am UTC

Though, EMTP's point in this thread is different. Here they're saying that other religions do terrible things, but it's Islam that gets painted as a whole as being an evil, intolerant religion. They're not condoning anything that any of these people are doing, they're pointing out that we give Islam a much harder time.
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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:37 pm UTC

Angua wrote:Though, EMTP's point in this thread is different. Here they're saying that other religions do terrible things, but it's Islam that gets painted as a whole as being an evil, intolerant religion. They're not condoning anything that any of these people are doing, they're pointing out that we give Islam a much harder time.


It would be better to point out the rampant homophobia among virtually every single Islamic country if the people that tend to criticize Islam the most didn't also happen to be the most homophobic.

Honestly, the Religious Right in the US should, if anything, admire Iran or Saudia Arabia. Arch-conservative governments with rampant cronyism, feminism de facto a crime, homosexuality punishable by death*, forced religious services, morality police, etc.

*Iran is, umm, weird on this one. Homosexuality is actually punishable by "voluntary" corrective sexual reassignment, which is why Iran has more sex changes than any other country. The ones you hear about in the news are only the ones who view being a trans woman as a fate worse than death.

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby morriswalters » Wed Dec 25, 2013 2:45 pm UTC

A hundred years ago the western nations would have been evil by the metrics being used here. Was the US evil in 1850? How did we get un-evil? Evil is a word used in large part by bigots. It is handy and it is semantically loaded. The word itself is tied closely to religion and superstition. Homosexuality is often itself classified as evil. It is a word of moral superiority, in the sense of, you're evil, I am superior, I am good. If the intent is to change minds, it is useless, you can't bargain with evil. What it is good for is labeling things you don't like so you can feel superior hating them. If FGM is barbarian, and I think it is, then educate the barbarian and be patient. Some of the worse sins of Christendom were caused by their desire to erase behavior they felt was evil.

And to this point no one has shown that the Taliban as a group supports or urges FGM other than as a possible product of its members preexisting tribal and cultural connections in Pakistan.

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 25, 2013 3:46 pm UTC

But they do murder women who attempt to educate themselves, they do murder homosexuals, they do murder people for being the wrong religion. Even if they don't advocate FGM and merely tolerate it, they are still barbaric.


And personally, I judge whether a nation is "good" or "evil" by the direction it's trying to take itself and the rest of the world in. And yes, "evil" is a snarl word that is used to basically declare something "wrong" without ever having to justify why said thing is wrong. Many things which today we consider barbaric were at the time a massive improvement. (Warning!) TVTropes has a nice list of things that were Fair for Its Day.

So, ask these questions instead:
Was the US of the 1850's headed towards or away from a more egalitarian society with higher Total Utility?
Was the Taliban's control moving Afghanistan towards or away from the egalitarian society with higher Total Utility?

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby morriswalters » Wed Dec 25, 2013 4:38 pm UTC

Of course they are. To us.
CorruptUser wrote:Was the US of the 1850's headed towards or away from a more egalitarian society with higher Total Utility?
Was the Taliban's control moving Afghanistan towards or away from the egalitarian society with higher Total Utility?

The answer to the first is yes, the answer to the second is how would you know? For a society to evolve a structure must to exist for it to evolve in. And there wasn't any, particularly types that generate wealth which gives culture the room to look inward and to examine itself. The Taliban may have eventually evolved into something better than what they are now, but they never got the chance. They country went from the Russian invasion, to civil war, to the Taliban. And then to us. They couldn't meet the bar you set in any time frame you could survive to see.

The problem with something like Fair In Its Day is that the cultural clock isn't synced. The illusion is that it is 2013 in Afghanistan. Most of those people are in a mix that consists of cultures that are effectively 200 or more years behind.

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 25, 2013 8:16 pm UTC

They were in control for a decade and things were getting worse. Women's rights were constantly moving backwards. You have to have Truther levels of denialism to believe that the Taliban were moving Afghanistan forward.

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby morriswalters » Wed Dec 25, 2013 8:53 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:They were in control for a decade and things were getting worse. Women's rights were constantly moving backwards. You have to have Truther levels of denialism to believe that the Taliban were moving Afghanistan forward.
When I think in terms of massive changes to culture I think in terms of hundreds of years. The US had slavery at its inception, it took 75 more years and a civil war to get rid of it, and then another 50 to give women the vote, and until the 60's to finally make significant gains in civil rights. We have tried to impose a solution from the outside, how do you think that is working? I don't support the Taliban, but neither do I consider them evil. But you get what you pay for. If they gain control after we leave, if we leave, it will be bloody and be even longer before they will have any chance of moderating. But if evil is how you wish to think about than I guess to you it is.

Just to keep the facts as they are.
During the five-year history of the Islamic Emirate, much of the population experienced restrictions on their freedom and violations of their human rights. Women were banned from jobs, and girls were forbidden to attend schools or universities and were requested to observe purdah and to abstain from obscenities. Those who resisted were punished. Communists were systematically executed and thieves were punished by amputating one of their hands or feet. Meanwhile, the Taliban succeeded in nearly eradicating the majority of the opium production by 2001.
At which point they only controlled 90 percent of the country.

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:28 pm UTC

Angua wrote:Though, EMTP's point in this thread is different. Here they're saying that other religions do terrible things, but it's Islam that gets painted as a whole as being an evil, intolerant religion. They're not condoning anything that any of these people are doing, they're pointing out that we give Islam a much harder time.


This is because while Christianity has a very bloody history, it is, at least in the first world, rather less so today. Sure, it's still got elements that are backward and harmful to rights, and change comes slowly, but at least they're not killing piles of people. Islam is simply further behind in the liberalization process. So yeah, of course they get portrayed worse.

If Muslim leadership were chatting about gays with the tolerance the new pope is, it'd be a very different conversation.

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby sardia » Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:38 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Angua wrote:Though, EMTP's point in this thread is different. Here they're saying that other religions do terrible things, but it's Islam that gets painted as a whole as being an evil, intolerant religion. They're not condoning anything that any of these people are doing, they're pointing out that we give Islam a much harder time.


This is because while Christianity has a very bloody history, it is, at least in the first world, rather less so today. Sure, it's still got elements that are backward and harmful to rights, and change comes slowly, but at least they're not killing piles of people. Islam is simply further behind in the liberalization process. So yeah, of course they get portrayed worse.

If Muslim leadership were chatting about gays with the tolerance the new pope is, it'd be a very different conversation.

No, you're conflating the religion with the people. The racist/homophobic/violent people out there happen to be Islamic because the majority of the people living in Africa/Mideast countries are Muslim. Muslims in the US aren't any more violent then Christians, despite the discrimination that 9/11 brought onto them. It sounds like you're saying converting to Islam is going to make you a extremist.

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:42 pm UTC

Any organization is made up of it's members, and their actions reflect on the organization. This is true for religion, as it is for everything else.

Yes, the fact that Christianity is much more prevailant in the west is WHY it is much less violent now...and one can observe that a group is pretty violent overall without making the assumption that everyone in that group is violent...but the Muslim religion IS quite violent as a whole. It's going to affect it's image.

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby sardia » Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:59 pm UTC

That's like saying the Pope is a bad person because Fundi Christians murdered their kids. An organized group based around a religious calling does not equate to a large movement which itself is a spliter of abrahamic religions. The middle east isn't just Muslim, it's also not a developed country teeming with poor unemployed youth who can't get laid. If you're gonna cast stones, I'd lay it at the feet of patriarchical society who make unrealistic demands of men. But it would be really silly of me to do so because I'm oversimplifying the reality of the situation when I cast the world is such broad strokes, just like you are doing now.

Islam is divided into various groups and factions, they have names. Those names are centered around Saudi and Iranian clerics, alongside dozens of smaller more vocal factions.

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby Angua » Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:01 pm UTC

I don't know, Christianity as practised in some developing countries can be pretty bad and intolerant. I don't think that if you managed to get everyone to suddenly convert (willingly) to Christianity that all the homophobia, misogyny and intolerance would vanish. Terrorism would probably still occur anyway (the terrorism happening from the IRA was pretty recent). Blaming a religion without controlling for things like wealth or demographic background of its practitioners seems somewhat unfair.

Also, what is up with saying 'the Muslim religion'? Is there some distinction from just saying Islam that I am not aware of?

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:36 pm UTC

sardia wrote:That's like saying the Pope is a bad person because Fundi Christians murdered their kids. An organized group based around a religious calling does not equate to a large movement which itself is a spliter of abrahamic religions. The middle east isn't just Muslim, it's also not a developed country teeming with poor unemployed youth who can't get laid. If you're gonna cast stones, I'd lay it at the feet of patriarchical society who make unrealistic demands of men. But it would be really silly of me to do so because I'm oversimplifying the reality of the situation when I cast the world is such broad strokes, just like you are doing now.

Islam is divided into various groups and factions, they have names. Those names are centered around Saudi and Iranian clerics, alongside dozens of smaller more vocal factions.


Different anology. A group is defined by those within it. A specific individual is not guaranteed to have all qualities common within the larger group.

Also, it's pretty hard to blame "patriarchal society" without observing that abrahamic religions have always been pretty patriarchal in nature, and tend to be forces for preserving that.

sardia wrote:Islam is divided into various groups and factions, they have names. Those names are centered around Saudi and Iranian clerics, alongside dozens of smaller more vocal factions.


The same is true of Christianity, and yeah, sometimes it gets talked about in more detail. However, it's not at all unusual to talk about Christianity as a single entity. All big groups tend to have subgroups, but that doesn't mean we can't talk about larger groups.

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby sardia » Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:46 pm UTC

Ok, so now start replacing "Muslim religion is quite violent" with "Salafis are quite violent in Lybia when they tried to stop women from being educated in the same room as men." See the difference? Now can we blame Iranians for this? How? They don't believe in Salafis, they are Shitte, no Sunni. Can we blame Sunnis for this? How? Salafis are a splinter group of Sunnnis. Can you blame Salafis in the US for the Salafis in Lybia? Now we're getting closer. You're playing seven degrees of Kevin Bacon here with Isalm is violent/evil talk, and you ought to explain yourself.

The reason I gave the patriarchal society line is that it's a simplistic explanation that sounds correct but doesn't explain everything, just like your line.

What exactly are you expecting from an Iranian, an American, and a Saudi Muslim?

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby addams » Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:51 pm UTC

yes. That makes sense.
All of those guys belong in a larger group, together.

They are all Mono-Theists.
Maybe, that is the Problem.

nah. People that are Poly-Theists go at one another, too.
Just, like the Mono-Theists.

The Mono-Theists all say there is ONE GOD.
They each say, "There is one God, I have it. It tells me What is What and you better believe it."

At least the Poly-Theists have the different Gods teased out a bit.
That does not excuse poor behavior.

Is it ignorance that causes The People to kill Nurses?
Are The People being manipulated to fear and distrust Medical Personal?

Was it Gang Violence? Who would pay to have Nurses killed?
To kill a human being is not much different from killing any other animal.

People are paid to kill. It is lucrative. right?
Who killed the two Nurses?

Nurses have been killed before. It is a little on the dangerous side to be a Nurse.
That has not always been true the way it is true, now.

Disease was a danger to Nurses, during most of history.
Nursing was not born of War. They do seem to stumble into it.

Those Nurses were at home. The War came to them.
Who killed those Nurses? Gangsters on Motorcycles?

How stereotypical....
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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:00 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Ok, so now start replacing "Muslim religion is quite violent" with "Salafis are quite violent in Lybia when they tried to stop women from being educated in the same room as men." See the difference? Now can we blame Iranians for this? How? They don't believe in Salafis, they are Shitte, no Sunni. Can we blame Sunnis for this? How? Salafis are a splinter group of Sunnnis. Can you blame Salafis in the US for the Salafis in Lybia? Now we're getting closer. You're playing seven degrees of Kevin Bacon here with Isalm is violent/evil talk, and you ought to explain yourself.

The reason I gave the patriarchal society line is that it's a simplistic explanation that sounds correct but doesn't explain everything, just like your line.

What exactly are you expecting from an Iranian, an American, and a Saudi Muslim?


You're the one who seems insistent on seeing this as blame, rather than as a simple description. Blame happens to people. The individual responsible for the action is the one to blame for it. Nobody is claiming that the muslim fellow in new york is responsible for the acts of a muslim fellow elsewhere.

However, when discussing a large organization of any sort, you must inherently talk in generalities. It would be worse than useless to describe the KKK as "having a variety of people, some of which believe in bad things, and some of which do not". It is entirely accurate to describe it as a group formed around hatred and intolerance. Yes, they may be an individual in it for whatever reason who does not exhibit these qualities, but as an organization, it espouses these policies and is implicated in related actions at rates far above random chance. Same, same, Islam.

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby addams » Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:18 pm UTC

The KKK are Mono-Theists.
They two groups are the same fucking thing.

Men that have a little power and authority and Like It!

They also have a Uniform. A Dress.
Those Islamic Guys have dresses, too.

The cross dressing East guys and the cross dressing West guys are the same guys.
right?

Send in the KKK!
They will be able to speak to their Brothers!
It will be great!

The Men Of Mono=Theism!
Like a Mexican Wrestling Team.

It can't be any worse than what the News says in going on, Now.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby sardia » Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:33 pm UTC

I am pointing out that your description of Islam is not accurate because it's far too broad. What evidence do you have that Islam is any more evil than other religions? Have you accounted for geography? Socioeconomic conditions? What studies are you citing?


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